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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A Joke Leads to Termination
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
At a software programming conference, two men were making sexual jokes and a woman tweeted a complaint, complete with photograph.
quote:
She tweeted, "Not cool. Jokes about forking repo's in a sexual way and "big" dongles. Right behind me #pycon."
In the aftermath, one of the men was fired, as was the complainant.
I think both firings were overreactions, but more so the firing of the complainant.
The offender violated the rules of the conference, whilst the complainant did not. And she was not fired until her employer was the recipient of multiple Denial of Service attacks.
It is most interesting that the company which fired the man did not receive the same treatment as the complainant's company did. So it would appear this is punishment for the woman daring to complain rather than addressing any perceived injustice.
The tech world, still being massively male, is more misogynistic than the general business world. The complainant's company capitulating to the trolls does nothing to balance the situation.
This is not as much about whether the complaint was an appropriate reaction, but whether the firing was the correct response.
The firing was the business world equivalent of sending tribute to the barbarians.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
Rape culture is alive and well in the tech industry. And people wonder why more girls don't go into STEM professions.
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
While I would bet good money that they were making those kinds of jokes is there actual evidence that they did, beyond her say so?
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
If you read the first link, a man claiming to be the one fired does nothing to deny and seems to confirm.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
As sympathetic as I am to the woman's plight, I think it was foolhardy of her to tweet her complaint.
Are people so overcome by the social media that they must immediately broadcast to the world everything that happens to them?
If she had stood up, said "How dare you make such a remark in front of me!" in a loud voice, and walked out of the conference, I'll bet she would still have her job.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Adria Richards (who turned on the two blokes behind her after listening in on their conversation and hearing some mild double entendres which were nothing to do with her), apparently normally spends her time picking on other women in her industry using her twitter following.
This time she picked on two blokes, one of whom who got fired and she became the subject of an internet mob of vicious nasty misogynist bastards, besides the more justified and reasonable criticism that she attracted. She also dragged her employer into the matter while fighting it out with people on twitter. Her employer who paid her to bring them good PR was not enamoured of the whole thing, and fired her - which is sad for someone who became a target of nastiness on the internet and replied to it.
The whole thing is a giant shitstorm. Both employers ( hers and that of the bloke who got fired) over-reacted.
The nasty misogynist internet mob are misogynist and nasty.
Ms Richards also broke the policy of the conference which is against public shaming - because she didn't just follow policy and get the conference staff to deal with the two blokes who offended her, (who by the way, fully apologised to her at the conference for any offence), she also tweeted their pictures to identify to them to people beyond the conference, and then stirred up her followers via her blog as well.
Sexism in tech is bad. Internet hate mobs are bad. But this woman is not someone to be cheered on. It speaks volumes that she went after two bunches of female conference organisers previously - in each case internet-shaming people instead of talking to them in a professional manner.
She's not some feminist heroine, she seems to be a professional offence-taker, but lots of genuinely nasty women-hating people have also jumped on the bandwagon against her. So basically it's huge mess and complicated.
[ 23. March 2013, 04:52: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Oh also, big dongles, big deal. I could totally agree with her telling them to pipe down, but going after them for that? What a ninny.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
I agree, for a person employed in what is effectively a PR position it's very unprofessional when a discrete word to a conference staffer could have achieved the same thing. To take it to Twitter when she was attending the conference in a professional capacity is very self-serving, and it would seem the employer has granted her wish to serve herself instead of them.
That has nothing to do with the wrongness of the alleged joke though, it would seem that was dealt with in a harsh but fair manner by both the conference (ejected) and the employer (terminated).
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
She's not some feminist heroine, she seems to be a professional offence-taker, but lots of genuinely nasty women-hating people have also jumped on the bandwagon against her. So basically it's huge mess and complicated.
Yeah, I am not truly defending her. But the reaction of the trollesphere is decidedly lopsided. No DDoS for the company who fired the man. No hate for them. The uncharitable part of me thinks it a bunch of blue-balled 40-year old virgins blaming women for their own lack of ability to get laid.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
I began by thinking that terminating either person was a massive over-reaction, but expected given the corporate approach to risk-minimization. If you are a distraction, you're gone.
So, to the facts. It seems that one of the men made a puerile joke about "big dongles" on a supposedly male piece of hardware. A bit smutty, maybe, and not the best model of professional behaviour, but nothing you wouldn't hear on prime-time TV.
In addition, the men were talking about forking someone's repo. Ms. Richards interpreted this as a sexual reference, which is a function of her own dirty mind. According to the men in question, at least, no sexual connotation was intended. (Forking a repository - taking a copy of it and using it to begin your own development branch - is a relatively common action. ) And yes, I can easily imagine software geeks saying "I'd fork his repo" as an expression of admiration for the talent displayed by a speaker. It's amusing because it references the stereotype of lecherous men saying "I'd give her one" at anything in a skirt, whilst having no sexual content at all. Oh, and "fork" sounds a bit like another word, of course.
With apologies to lilBuddha, I don't think I can really separate the appropriateness of the terminations from the actions themselves, because Ms Richards had a job which was basically PR. So she gets less of a pass for not thinking through the consequences of her actions, because understanding the consequences of public statements is her job.
I still think firing her for this is excessive, but a firm carpeting and a stiff dose of "don't start whaling on some guy in public because you thought you heard something a bit borderline" from upper management would be about the minimum appropriate response.
As for the dongle joke guy, I wouldn't fire him either. Unless he had been warned about his behaviour before, or was due for a bad review and possible termination anyway, he needs to be told to keep his off-colour comments for the bar.
The only thing that was completely beyond the pale in this whole sorry affair was the torrent of vile invective aimed at Ms. Richards after the event. I don't care how much in the wrong she was, or how much of a hypocrite she is, there's absolutely no excuse for the kind of vile person that thinks it appropriate to post comments about how she should be raped and murdered.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But the reaction of the trollesphere is decidedly lopsided. No DDoS for the company who fired the man. No hate for them.
Come on - give the nutbags credit for some rationality, at least. Attacking the company that fired the man isn't going to achieve anything - they're never going to call him and say "actually, the internet complained, so would you like your job back"?
The only thing that is actually achievable is to make enough noise that Ms. Richards gets fired too. So the lopsidedness is perfectly rational.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
What poor excuses for human beings the lot of them are. People who don't know how to behave properly in work situations deserve to be terminated. That includes people messing around tweeting.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
I agree, for a person employed in what is effectively a PR position it's very unprofessional when a discrete word to a conference staffer could have achieved the same thing. To take it to Twitter when she was attending the conference in a professional capacity is very self-serving, and it would seem the employer has granted her wish to serve herself instead of them.
An alternative view:
quote:
A typical observation is that Adria Richards should have simply had a few quiet words with the guys, perhaps a kinder, gentler version of “shut the fuck up”, and not gone nuclear by publicly outing them to her >12K twitter followers. In an ideal, perhaps naive world, the guys would have stopped their running dialogue, seen the error of their ways, and left the conference as changed, better men. Nobody would have been fired, reputations would not have been tarnished, and rainbows and unicorns would proliferate.
However, how many such quiet words have been exchanged in how many public settings, and what aggregate effect have all these isolated admonishments had on the culture, not only of the tech industry, but on society writ large? Perhaps some, but not enough to prevent these episodes from continuing. When observed in isolation, Richards overreacted. The guys were offensive and unprofessional, but as they violated a social norm, so too did she. However, they also had no reasonable expectation of privacy. A few quiet words wouldn’t have changed their attitude, but it probably would have ended the running dialogue, but also might have resulted in a confrontation. Nothing would have changed save for one isolated episode.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
As sympathetic as I am to the woman's plight, I think it was foolhardy of her to tweet her complaint.
Are people so overcome by the social media that they must immediately broadcast to the world everything that happens to them?
I agree. As the blogger in one of Louise's links said, Adria Richards didn't seem to be asking herself the question: what outcome do I want from this?
If you're going straight from the point of offence to slapping it all over twitter with photographs, and nothing in between, you're obviously about punishing and provocation. It's not as if this was a situation were there where no other options for her, if she were truly interested in challenging their behaviour.
The misogyny of the replies to her actions is, of course, inexusable. The best response would've been to challenge her to a) examine her own motives, b) maintain a sense of proportion, and c) to learn more effective ways of communicating her offence to the offenders.
But once things are 'out there' control is lost. Even if the men had been snickering over the most disgusting innuendoes and ruining her experience of the conference, she ought to have had enough common sense to have had a better approach than the one she chose. Crying shame that jobs were lost over this. That need never have happened.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
No-one emerges from this story with any credit.
Best most of us can do is to try to apply our censure in proportion to the gravity of the wrongdoing in each case.
Two things make that difficult.
One is our natural tendency to take sides, and having taken sides to talk up the sins of the Other Side and talk down the sins of Our Side.
The other is the disconnect between intention and consequences. Where I come from, losing a job is a pretty big deal. But the boss who unjustly fired the man may have done it reluctantly, with good intention, in a spirit of trying his/her best to do his/her duty as an executive of the company.
Conversely, the senders of hate mail may have acted from the worst of twisted motives, with minimal impact individually.
Seems to me that Learning Cniht has it about right in reacting to this sorry tale.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
So the blogger is a hard-assed bitch with a history of over-reacting. I've worked in high tech for 30 years, and it's because of the over-reacting hard-assed bitches that I can move around the office without having to worry about a man patting my butt as I walk by, or putting his hands on my shoulders while I'm typing, or moving a strand of hair out of my face. It's because of hard-assed bitches like her that it's no longer acceptable to minimize a woman's professional opinion by addressing her as "sweetheart" and "darling." It's because of hard-assed bitches that the high-tech culture has begun to change.
You don't change a culture by quietly whispering your disapproval in someone's ear. You change a culture by forcing change. And that seems to require consistent, uncomfortable, over-reaction.
Mildly sexist jokes at a tech event are a problem, not because they are overwhelmingly offensive, but because they are used to define who is welcome, who is part of the community, and who isn't. They objectify women, and make women into outsiders.
If you want an eye-opening read on the subject of gender, read Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine. It's research, not polemic. Read it, and then think about what happened at PyCon.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
I don't tweet. so I don't know entirely how things work in the twitter world.
I can see, however, posting a somewhat snarky comment on my FB page in similar circumstances. The intent would be about the same as telling my friends a story about some stupid comments being said somewhere by someone. While not private, such a FB post would be presented as if sharing with real life friends (or at least acquaintances), as a private individual, rather than as a company representative.
On the other hand, she apparently had 12K followers. I'm guessing that means her twitter account is at least partially used in a professional, rather than personal, capacity. That being the case, It seems she should assume that whatever she posts will be viewed as if it were in a business meeting context. In other words, she shouldn't have made the sort of snide, personal observation.
I assume, since the company knew who to fire, that she specifically identified the men in question (rather than just saying "a couple of guys"). that seems un professional for something so minor, in such a public forum.
I think this may be one of the dangers of something like Twitter: it blurs the line between personal and professional. She is posting like a person speaking with other persons privately, but it's being read by 12K people very publicly.
Should she have been fired for that? perhaps. depends on just to what extent the twitter account was associated with her employer. I assume it was, but I may be wrong, and she may have those 12K followers because of some personal blogging she does or some other factor.
Should the guys have been fired? probably not unless this is just one more example of a pattern of behavior. Just like she should have been aware that she was not posting to a group of friends, they should have been aware that they were not in private. but fired? seems a bit much.
just a general example of how technology can complicate things, and how we haven't entirely learned, as a society, how to deal with the merging of public and private space that results.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
Josephine:
I think ther is a difference between:
quote:
...overheard a joke...
and:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
... I can move around the office without having to worry about a man patting my butt as I walk by, or putting his hands on my shoulders while I'm typing, or moving a strand of hair out of my face.
The former is a private conversation (I admit not in the most private of places to have one but everyone at somepoint has tried to have a private conversation in a busy place) and the other is openly directed at someone/crosses personal boundaries/etc/etc.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Presumably, The One Ronnie shouldn't have gone on TV in prime time to say that "My Blackberry Is Not Working"
with all the innuendoes that this implies.
The lady who was fired should not have gone to the Internet to spill her venom. She was supposedly a professional and should have channels to make her complaints. If she ignores those and stirs up trouble the company is justified in firing her.
And anyone who has any Internet awareness at all knows that there are hundreds of trolls who desperately need a chance to be trollish.
Do you walk into the crocodile cage and say "Hey, don't bite. I'm not food"?
ISTM that she caused way too much trouble
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
On the other hand, she apparently had 12K followers. I'm guessing that means her twitter account is at least partially used in a professional, rather than personal, capacity. That being the case, It seems she should assume that whatever she posts will be viewed as if it were in a business meeting context. In other words, she shouldn't have made the sort of snide, personal observation.
I assume, since the company knew who to fire, that she specifically identified the men in question (rather than just saying "a couple of guys"). that seems un professional for something so minor, in such a public forum.
I think this may be one of the dangers of something like Twitter: it blurs the line between personal and professional. She is posting like a person speaking with other persons privately, but it's being read by 12K people very publicly.
Should she have been fired for that? perhaps. depends on just to what extent the twitter account was associated with her employer. I assume it was, but I may be wrong, and she may have those 12K followers because of some personal blogging she does or some other factor.
Should the guys have been fired? probably not unless this is just one more example of a pattern of behavior. Just like she should have been aware that she was not posting to a group of friends, they should have been aware that they were not in private. but fired? seems a bit much.
The main reason that Adria Richards would have been fired is because of her particular position, being that of "developer evangelist" which is the tech industry's code for public relations. This causes three big problems for her.
The first problem is that for high profile PR types who are employed on the basis of their existing credibility, there is no such thing as "personal" and "professional" - it's all professional all the time.
The second major issue is that a similar faux pas by some other person in the organisation would be smoothed over by the in-house PR mouthpiece, but in this case the person bringing the company misery is the PR mouthpiece. She's the one who's supposed to be fixing up issues like this instead of causing them, and when it gets to the point of her personal issues bringing the company toxic attention then they have to let her go.
The third major problem would be the nature of the toxic attention that she was bringing to the company - namely DDOS attacks. For a software developer this is a major problem because it directly affects the ability of the workers to do the core business of the company, which in turn could drive down morale among the employees if it is tolerated by the management.
This situation is very similar to a pro sporting team suspending or firing a star player for some indiscretion which would never warrant any media attention for a normal person like your or me, for example getting a relatively minor speeding fine. The main purpose of a sporting team signing a big name player is not to win matches but to win the fans and the sponsors. When they go out and get caught 10 clicks over the limit it can jeopardise contracts with companies which sponsor the team for the purpose of generating public goodwill, or with organisations which use the profile of the team to spread road safety awareness. Do a really good job of offending sponsors and they might lose contracts or even get forced into various forms of public humiliation.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Come on - give the nutbags credit for some rationality, at least. Attacking the company that fired the man isn't going to achieve anything - they're never going to call him and say "actually, the internet complained, so would you like your job back"?
The only thing that is actually achievable is to make enough noise that Ms. Richards gets fired too. So the lopsidedness is perfectly rational.
No. Wrong. Attacking the company who fired the man would send exactly the same message. Registering a complaint would be rational. Complaining that, yes the jokers should have been more respectful, but the complainant over-reacted, would have been rational. Bullying her employer is not.
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
[QUOTE]
The third major problem would be the nature of the toxic attention that she was bringing to the company - namely DDOS attacks. For a software developer this is a major problem because it directly affects the ability of the workers to do the core business of the company,
No, wrong reaction. "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute." Giving in sends the wrong message. It becomes not about what may be right, but what may be tolerated by the intolerant.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
We have rather strong labour laws.
The laws here under 'labour standards' (LS) and 'occupational health and safety' (OH&S) require every employer to have a harassment policy. If the employer does not have one, a generic one applies, and a situation would be investigated based on that. The employer in this case would likely be fined, and ordered to develop a harassment policy within 3 months, and show that it had acquainted every employee with the policy. The employees who told the jokes would probably be suspended with OH&S reviewing the results of an investigation in accord with due process and typical consequences, which would tend to be disciplinary letter and sent to a training course on harassment.
I have great empathy for the tweeter. No doubt in a neandertal culture, the employer had never done its responsible duty and she had limited choice to force the issue by releasing it publicly. The employer is within its rights to terminate her employment for the tweeting, but she would register a statement of claim (lawsuit) and request in excess of the statutory minimum of 2 weeks of pay per year of employment, probably more like a month per year, plus an amount representing the typical job search time for someone in her profession, subject to review of her efforts to obtain work.
The tweeter would also have access to a human rights complaint, and monetary damages from both the employer the employees involved. The employer would be seen as negligent to not have protected re sexual harassment. The employer would be further humiliated by publication in print and online of the decision.
I would expect the total in penalties for the employer would be in the 40k range. The employees would probably be fined in the 2-3k range. There should be no tolerance of any kind for this sort of behaviour.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Hormonal woman listens to two men telling joke and then complains as she decides to take offence.
I'm glad she got the sack, maybe next time she'll keep her nose out of other people's business.
And what the hell is a "developer evangelist"? It sounds like a non-job to me. If she had some real work to do she wouldn't have had the time to evesdrop on others.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
By hormonal - you mean what exactly ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
She didn't decide to take offence, she merely tweeted that they were "not cool", which is a perfectly legitimate comment to make. The stupid thing was to out them with a photograph - that was pretty contemptible, but then so is automatically attributing a woman's actions to her hormones.
[eta: X-posted with Doublethink, but I'm sure it's obvious that the comment was directed to deano]
[ 23. March 2013, 19:38: Message edited by: QLib ]
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Well, seeing as work in IT, I might as well act up to it eh Josephine.
I'm off out now to rebuild the church's web site and do a spot of light-raping.
[Sorry edited by mistake when attempting to reply, DT, Purgatory Host]
[ 23. March 2013, 19:50: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
light-raping
You see that tumbleweed over there --> Imagine it alot.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Hormonal woman
rape culture: alive and well
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Like I said, if I'm going to be painted in a particular light because of the business I work in, then I may as well play up to the sterotype.
These two black lesbians walked into a bar. They worked in community outreach co-ordination of course, so they weren't rapists in any way.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Rape culture is alive and well in the tech industry. And people wonder why more girls don't go into STEM professions.
I case you are all wondering, this is where I was called a rapist because I work in IT.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Deano, just so long as by 'play up' you do not mean 'trolling'.
Doublethink
Purgatory Host
[ 23. March 2013, 20:04: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Everyone, if you want to get personal - take it to hell.
Doublethink
Purgatory Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Oh please, trolling must indicate that I don't believe the things I'm stating.
Why wouldn't I believe that I'm a rapist because I work in IT?
Perhaps Josephine doesn't believe that all men who work in IT are a bit rapey now and then, and she's trolling.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Oh please, trolling must indicate that I don't believe the things I'm stating.
Why wouldn't I believe that I'm a rapist because I work in IT?
Perhaps Josephine doesn't believe that all men who work in IT are a bit rapey now and then, and she's trolling.
Would you feel differently if it were a daughter of your's who was subjected to juvenilia like this? Or your wife? Ot your sister? Just ho-ho laugh it off?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Rape culture is alive and well in the tech industry. And people wonder why more girls don't go into STEM professions.
I case you are all wondering, this is where I was called a rapist because I work in IT.
Um, no. This is where someone stated that your industry - not you, not team, not your company necessarily - has a specific culture.
"There is a heavy drinking culture among British students" is not the same as "All British students drink too much." But if true, it might well imply that the culture needs to be changed.
"Rape culture is alive and well in the tech industry" is not the same as "All men working in IT are rapists." But, if true, it certainly implies that the culture needs to change.
Is there anything in this story, or the reactions to it, including those on this thread, that indicates that the culture in your industry is just fine and does not need to change in any way?
anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
What exactly is 'rape culture' supposed to be?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
What exactly is 'rape culture' supposed to be?
Google Is Your Fucking Friend
[ 23. March 2013, 20:49: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Rape culture is alive and well in the tech industry. And people wonder why more girls don't go into STEM professions.
I case you are all wondering, this is where I was called a rapist because I work in IT.
You might try looking up the term "rape culture" before you say anything else. It doesn't mean what you appear to think it means.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
What exactly is 'rape culture' supposed to be?
Google Is Your Fucking Friend
Yes, I know. I don't think it's too much to ask for a brief explanation of what something means (or more importantly, what a poster understands a term to mean) particularly when we're dealing with a somewhat rarified term that isn't often in common discourse. But thanks for obliging so amicably.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
What exactly is 'rape culture' supposed to be?
Internet search is your friend. From Wikipedia 'rape culture'
quote:
Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, and trivializing rape.
....
For instance, sexist jokes may be told to foster disrespect for women and an accompanying disregard for their well-being. An example would be a female rape victim being blamed for her being raped because of how she dressed or acted. In rape culture, sexualized violence towards women is regarded as a continuum in a society that regards women's bodies as sexually available by default.
The idea is that jokes that condone or promote sexualization, objectivication and exploitation of women are at one end of a continuum that has rape at the other end. It is perhaps simplistic and doesn't account for people who hear and tell the jokes and never act, but we might also consider that many people who hear and tell racist jokes don't personally attack the people the jokes are about.
Is there a syllogism? The argument being: racist jokes are to racist behaviour, as child porn is to sexual assault of children, as sexist jokes are to rape. If these are not directly connected, the jokes promote the rape supportive attitudes.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Is a smutty joke the same as a sexist joke? That seems very questionable to me.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
You don't change a culture by quietly whispering your disapproval in someone's ear. You change a culture by forcing change. And that seems to require consistent, uncomfortable, over-reaction.
Sounds like a classic "end justifies the means" argument.
Do you really think it's OK to be a little bit in the wrong in small things in the service of a big thing that you're convinced is right ?
I was under the impression that Christians are called to a different way.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
You don't change a culture by quietly whispering your disapproval in someone's ear. You change a culture by forcing change. And that seems to require consistent, uncomfortable, over-reaction.
Sounds like a classic "end justifies the means" argument.
Do you really think it's OK to be a little bit in the wrong in small things in the service of a big thing that you're convinced is right ?
I was under the impression that Christians are called to a different way.
Best wishes,
Russ
I'm no fan of prooftexting, but there's plenty in scripture about rebuking. Maybe scriptural rebukes are only applicable within God's People, but something similar is applicable in a workplace too, to ensure acceptable standards of behaviour are adhered to.
The sackings are, IMHO, overreactions, but I expect those involved knew what the rules were, even if, as so often happens, they have the idea they only apply to others. Heck, the times I've had to put people straight on that.
[ 23. March 2013, 22:08: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
You don't change a culture by quietly whispering your disapproval in someone's ear. You change a culture by forcing change. And that seems to require consistent, uncomfortable, over-reaction.
Sounds like a classic "end justifies the means" argument.
Do you really think it's OK to be a little bit in the wrong in small things in the service of a big thing that you're convinced is right ?
I was under the impression that Christians are called to a different way.
You seem to be conflating manners and virtue and treating rudeness a synonym for evil. I would argue that manners and virtue have very little to do with each other. Treating "nice" and "rude" as synonyms for "good" and "wrong" is a category error.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
You don't change a culture by quietly whispering your disapproval in someone's ear. You change a culture by forcing change. And that seems to require consistent, uncomfortable, over-reaction.
Sounds like a classic "end justifies the means" argument.
Do you really think it's OK to be a little bit in the wrong in small things in the service of a big thing that you're convinced is right ?
I was under the impression that Christians are called to a different way.
Best wishes,
Russ
Jesus did rebuke a few people didn't he? You're impression would tend to suggest that you think that Christians should only be very very nice and never express themselves directly when people are sexist (or racist). No. Christians must label things honesty and consider what is the right thing to do. So just be a bystander when there's a sexist (or racist) joke. Don't stop at just no laughing. Say why you don't think it's funny. (I add racist, because I think people get that we shouldn't laugh about a joke about a nigger, but apparently not so clear that they shouldn't laugh about a drunk woman).
You might consider a short internet read about the joking over the 16 year old who was raped by 2 high school football players in the USA and were thankfully convicted and jailed.
Quoting from the above link:
quote:
A YouTube video of a teen who was at the party joking about the case went viral....
Do you think Christians are called to laugh along? IMO anyone showing the least support, let alone laugh, for the rapists needs to be rebuked in the strongest way. And Christians should be the first to do it.
[ 23. March 2013, 22:32: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Not a sexist joke in this case. A mild double entendre aimed at no-one, listened in on by someone whose previous triumphs were picking on other women. Because sexists have weighed in on this, it doesn't follow that her behaviour is to be commended. The 'polite word doesn't stop harassers' stuff is a red herring in this case, as the person concerned shows this pattern not only to men but to women who are no potential sexual threat to her.
The conference had a good anti-sexual harassment procedure which she invoked and which was fully carried through. But dealing with things through normal channels doesn't drive traffic and followers to your social media accounts which is core to her job.
The instantaneous nature of social media means that we increasingly live in a panopticon where anything we say in the presence of others can be publicised, photographed, recorded and can go viral - leading to anything from wealth and fortune to monstering and losing our job. Social media marketeers depend on increasing their follower count for their job and their power and personal marketability. The other people around them become the fodder for their brand. It's a social media version of the traditional Daily Mail 'Let's have the two minutes hate about people who morally outrage us!' She likely (given her previous form) reckoned she could make a story out of the two blokes behind her and get those all important clicks and follows that would make her more valuable to her employer (just as she did with the women who she picked on to her followers).
This seems too much to me like marketing using others as a means to an end which backfired in a very nasty way.
[ 23. March 2013, 22:32: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Having read Adria Richards' justification of her actions, she comes across as an unpleasant person to me.
She says in her post that she's recently completed a stand-up comedy course. Her act must be a laugh-a-minute.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Sure. Let's play 'blame the victim', it's a laugh a minute.
Try for a minute to separate out your armchair judgements of the person who complained from what she complained about.
This is what they mean about rape culture. You blame the person who complains or is the victim. Find something about them to criticize and focus on, and then shift the blame on to them, from what they were complaining about. It is merely lower on the continuum from blaming the woman for "dressing like a slut" for unwanted sexual attention. Shame on you for that.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Oh please, trolling must indicate that I don't believe the things I'm stating.
Why wouldn't I believe that I'm a rapist because I work in IT?
Perhaps Josephine doesn't believe that all men who work in IT are a bit rapey now and then, and she's trolling.
Host Hat On
deano
This is a formal warning for disputing a Host ruling in the thread. The Styx is the place for that. The above post has got you a reference to Admin as well.
A general warning
Calm down in the discussion or this thread gets locked in Purg. It's not a rant thread in Hell. It might end up there, but while it's here, cut the personal crap. Doublethink has warned about that as well.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
Host Hat Off
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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