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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A Joke Leads to Termination
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quantpole, the statistics and occurrences of harassment of women show it's more frequent than harassment of men, and with men, it's less likely to be sexual. So the perceived imbalance is reasonable.
Most people don't blow up at the least provocation. I suppose the woman could have made a scene and yelled about, disrupting the meeting versus tweeting. But the key question is not whether this specific situation warranted her tweet-blowup, but whether she's right about the culture, and what other incidents might have occurred which she experienced. Was this the straw that broke the camel's back for her?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Reddit founder Alexis Ohanian is quoted in the Huffington Post, which is worth quoting here and you can also check out the article.
quote:
from above link:
The situation, rather than igniting a constructive conversation about what it means to be a woman in tech, started a violent backlash against Richards and women in general. This troubled Ohanian. In his blog post he writes:
The comments (and support for them) I’ve seen over the past few days have really disappointed me and I really hope this is a chance for us to reflect on how we use these tools to foster the tech community. This isn't "political correctness," this is you having the courage to use your words to create an environment that promotes an open exchange of ideas -- not alienate people and certainly not terrorize them.
He's recognizing and stating what some of us are trying to say here.
Good man.
Interestingly
this article popped up in my feed just now-- just want to point out it was written by a man, but it really does give a good idea of how misogyny can disguise itself.
One comment that leaped out at me (from the article):
quote:
But remember, there are two ways to dehumanize someone: by dismissing them, and by idolizing them.
So, it's like. when a lot of men-- note I did not say all men, or any of the men currently discussing-- but a lot of men, when they say they "respect women", they are confining their definition to a selection of female relatives and whatever ideal woman they have formed in their head. This is not respect, it is idolatry. And the problem with idols, is people get really ugly when idols fall off their pedestals and become human. Idols are very definitely not supposed to be human.
But that"respect" still only comprises a very narrow representative window of what women actually are, the vast population of women who comprise half of human population altogether-- from Ashley Judd to the homeless lady talking to herself as she goes down the street. A feminine 1%, if you will. So, to phrase it in those terms, if a woman who is part of the 99% says or does something challenging, all you have to do is riffle through the 5,908,543 preprogrammed dismissals society has at your disposal, and figure out which applies to her. Too masculine. Strident. Oversensitive. Manipulative. Sexually repressed. Sexually loose. Neurotic. And so on.
I kind of agree that "Rape culture" is a bit strong for the situation described above, but maybe that's just a distillation of 5,908,543/1.
As to the situation itself-- I don't see why anybody had to be fired. Do I think Richards Tweeted in spite, or with any agenda to get the guys fired? No, I think she got mad and reached for the first thing available to her to lash out. Do I think the guys in question are potential rapists? Nah. But I do think that they are invested in a definition of masculinity that includes the privilege to trash-talk a colleague to other men. Not "rape-culture", necessarily, but definitely misogyny.
I think all of the principles should have been made to sit down with a couple of really good mediators--one male, one female, just for the sake of argument-- and a round-table acknowledgement by each principle of their contribution to the fracas should have been required.
I think a lot of people are thinking about the connection between rape and more garden-variety misogyny lately, because recent events have shown that a whole lot of men-- heartrendingly, a lot of YOUNG men-- don't even know what rape is. I think a lot of us are in "This shit just ain't funny anymore" mode. As someone who has a whole cadre of 20-and-younger nephews that I love dearly, I have been thinking of little else for the past few days.
[ 26. March 2013, 20:21: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Do you think there's any significance at all to the fact that one of the men was fired, and not the other?
The one who said "I'd fork that guy's repo" wasn't fired, the one who said "big dongle" was.
I'd have thought it was because the repo forking guy's employer was satisfied that what he said had no sexual connotation (the sexual element was projected by Adria), whereas the dongle guy's employer knew that the dongle reference was sexual.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I'd have thought it was because the repo forking guy's employer was satisfied that what he said had no sexual connotation (the sexual element was projected by Adria), whereas the dongle guy's employer knew that the dongle reference was sexual.
Oh, hogwash (No to you, revs, to that line of reasoning.)
Seriously, what was he saying? That he literally wanted to poke her with a fork?
[ 26. March 2013, 20:19: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Do you think there's any significance at all to the fact that one of the men was fired, and not the other?
I expect that they had two different employers. What is your expectation?
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That at least makes sense.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I think we both agree that the culture needs to change, just differ on how we think that might happen. I think that the one soul at a time method is much more effective than the blunderbuss method.
What evidence do you have that the "one soul at a time" method has ever been effective at changing a misogynistic and hostile workplace environment? How long do women have to try that method before we're allowed to conclude that it isn't effective and try something else? And whose permission do we need to get before we escalate?
You see, I agree with Josephine here. And for all I know these two men were total douchbags known for their general arseholery and sexism.
And I agree with Croesos: if the matter was trivial, why all the shitstorm? Was it because a woman dared comment on a man's behaviour?
But taken as a whole: making a dongle joke? Not cool. Taking and tweeting someone's picture without their permission? Not cool. That person's followers taking it and running up a mob? Not cool. The developer's employers sacking him as a result? Not cool. The death and rape threats. So not cool. Her employers sacking her as a result? Again, not cool.
Who comes out of this well? No one. It's one big clusterfuck. Who the hell would want to work in an industry like that? It makes scientific academia seem normal.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quantpole, the statistics and occurrences of harassment of women show it's more frequent than harassment of men, and with men, it's less likely to be sexual. So the perceived imbalance is reasonable.
I don't doubt that. What I doubt is whether this particular situation was in the least bit harassment or part of the culture of harassment. In my experience the sort of comments that were made could just as likely be made by woman as a man.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But taken as a whole: making a dongle joke? Not cool. Taking and tweeting someone's picture without their permission? Not cool. That person's followers taking it and running up a mob? Not cool. The developer's employers sacking him as a result? Not cool. The death and rape threats. So not cool. Her employers sacking her as a result? Again, not cool.
Who comes out of this well? No one. It's one big clusterfuck. Who the hell would want to work in an industry like that? It makes scientific academia seem normal.
"Clusterfuck" does seem to sum it all up, doesn't it?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Do you think there's any significance at all to the fact that one of the men was fired, and not the other?
The one who said "I'd fork that guy's repo" wasn't fired, the one who said "big dongle" was.
I'd have thought it was because the repo forking guy's employer was satisfied that what he said had no sexual connotation (the sexual element was projected by Adria), whereas the dongle guy's employer knew that the dongle reference was sexual.
That's how I took it.
[x-posted with several]
[ 26. March 2013, 20:25: Message edited by: jbohn ]
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Seriously, what was he saying? That he literally wanted to poke her with a fork?
It was a man's repo that he wanted to fork, not a woman's.
I.e. he thought the guy was a brilliant programmer and wanted to use code from his online repository.
It sounds a little bit rude (and I'm sure that's how the phrase arose) but it's just jargon, and is a compliment on someone's programming skills, not their sexiness or whatever. Just like spamming someone doesn't mean that you've covered them in spicy ham.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But taken as a whole: making a dongle joke? Not cool. Taking and tweeting someone's picture without their permission? Not cool. That person's followers taking it and running up a mob? Not cool. The developer's employers sacking him as a result? Not cool. The death and rape threats. So not cool. Her employers sacking her as a result? Again, not cool.
Who comes out of this well? No one. It's one big clusterfuck. Who the hell would want to work in an industry like that? It makes scientific academia seem normal.
"Clusterfuck" does seem to sum it all up, doesn't it?
Amen.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
In my experience the sort of comments that were made could just as likely be made by woman as a man.
Yeah, I thought of that. Faux-liberation. "We ladies should Get To objectify men, too if we want." Just reinforces the whole idea that doing so is a privilege.
I once worked with a guy for one day at a childcare center-- one day, because the women on staff stared at him from behind the kitchen divider and tried to marry him off to each other, while he was working with the kids. Working well witht he kids, I might add.I reported it to the director, who did nothing. The guy just walked, and I don't blame him. And we lost a great teacher.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Seriously, what was he saying? That he literally wanted to poke her with a fork?
It was a man's repo that he wanted to fork, not a woman's.
I.e. he thought the guy was a brilliant programmer and wanted to use code from his online repository.
It sounds a little bit rude (and I'm sure that's how the phrase arose) but it's just jargon, and is a compliment on someone's programming skills, not their sexiness or whatever. Just like spamming someone doesn't mean that you've covered them in spicy ham.
Oh. OH! Ok. Luddite here. In that case, I agree.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
Ya learn something new every day. I would have thought a "dongle" was a type of dingleberry instead of a term for the talliwacker.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Ya learn something new every day. I would have thought a "dongle" was a type of dingleberry instead of a term for the talliwacker.
Well, it's computer hardware; a small device that plugs into a USB port and enables some function or other. Most of the ones I've seen come with a software product and contain a key which allows the software to be used on that machine; no dongle, no use. Of course, the name is similar to a slang word for "penis," which in certain circles leads to much "hilarity".
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, I thought of that. Faux-liberation. "We ladies should Get To objectify men, too if we want." Just reinforces the whole idea that doing so is a privilege.
Nope. Just a crap play on words. Reading more into it than that is the problem. Unless you think that any jokes that mention any sexual organ should be banned.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Ya learn something new every day. I would have thought a "dongle" was a type of dingleberry instead of a term for the talliwacker.
Well, it's computer hardware; a small device that plugs into a USB port and enables some function or other. Most of the ones I've seen come with a software product and contain a key which allows the software to be used on that machine; no dongle, no use. Of course, the name is similar to a slang word for "penis," which in certain circles leads to much "hilarity".
Oh, ok. I think I have some dongles of my own, then, on my laptop. I didn't know what they were called so I had just called them cordless plugs.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Seriously, what was he saying? That he literally wanted to poke her with a fork?
It was a man's repo that he wanted to fork, not a woman's.
I.e. he thought the guy was a brilliant programmer and wanted to use code from his online repository.
It sounds a little bit rude (and I'm sure that's how the phrase arose) but it's just jargon, and is a compliment on someone's programming skills, not their sexiness or whatever. Just like spamming someone doesn't mean that you've covered them in spicy ham.
Oh. OH! Ok. Luddite here. In that case, I agree.
I haven't heard this specific usage for "fork" in software development. Normally used in the sense of a fork in the road, or development, such that a program might be split into two separate projects. You don't normally fork a repository, you create a new one or just draw out the libraries or pieces you want from an existing one.
There is a double entendre possible, with fork being a minced or disguised way of saying "fuck". I know we used to say it, particularly as 4Q. So what did the guy mean and did he understand the double meaning? I get that he would be able to explain this away easier than the dongle guy, who maybe was responding to his take on fork.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I once worked with a man to whom I had to explain* that I found being addressed as cunt offensive. He thought I was being over sensitive but he didn't do it again. I also objected to him referring to our ethnic minority origin manager as a black enamelled bastard (I think he was just racist, and I doubt my objection had much imapct). The big dongle thing would probably not hit my radar.
(*not a euphemism, he genuinely found this odd.)
[ETA I am female btw]
[ 26. March 2013, 20:50: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
[QB] I once worked with a man to whom I had to explain* that I found being addressed as cunt offensive. He thought I was being over sensitive but he didn't do it again.
I have a wife and three daughters. Let him come talk that way to them and I'll put one on him his daddy should have.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I once worked with a man to whom I had to explain* that I found being addressed as cunt offensive. He thought I was being over sensitive but he didn't do it again.
Wow. I don't doubt you a bit, but I'm struggling to imagine a person who doesn't get that.
Usually, even people who feel completely entitled to their prejudice have enough of a sense of self-preservation not to parade it.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I haven't heard this specific usage for "fork" in software development. Normally used in the sense of a fork in the road, or development, such that a program might be split into two separate projects.
http://tinyurl.com/39gess
quote:
You don't normally fork a repository, you create a new one or just draw out the libraries or pieces you want from an existing one.
Which just indicates that you aren't overly familiar with the more recent distributed SCMs:
https://help.github.com/articles/fork-a-repo
'fork' is a better description of what happens in such cases, as every repository is standalone but can retains a relationship of some kind to its antecedents at little cost.
[ 26. March 2013, 21:26: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I once worked with a man to whom I had to explain* that I found being addressed as cunt offensive. He thought I was being over sensitive but he didn't do it again.
Wow. I don't doubt you a bit, but I'm struggling to imagine a person who doesn't get that.
Usually, even people who feel completely entitled to their prejudice have enough of a sense of self-preservation not to parade it.
To be fair I am not entirely sure that he didn't just call everyone cunt and consider it within the bounds of aggressive banter.
You would be surprised what people working in kitchens feel is appropriate behaviour. One kitchen I worked in, the kitchen assistant and assistant chef spent parts of their mornings bragging about the snuff videos they'd seen - and joking about whether the hotel owner had sex with his dogs. In some ways not different from the way I have seen squaddie culture portrayed on screen at times - I wonder to what extent it was typical or not of working class male culture in the area*.
I never felt particularly threatened or disadvantaged by these men, but I wouldn't have wanted to be around them if they were drunk - and I knew my work was temporary and I was not going to be staying. I think it would have depressed me if I envisioned that being my future - if that was the environment I thought I was going to spend my working life in.
*I specifically remember a conversation with another staff about the kitchen assistant - that he had gone out with "a nice middle class girl" and she had broken up with him because "when they rowed, she wasn't used to been spoken to like that". Apparently, he realised he had an anger problem and went to see a counsellor - he was a falklands veteran and I think he had been damaged by that experience.
[ 26. March 2013, 22:41: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
Please pardon the tangent but does 'seduction culture' exist?
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
Please pardon the tangent but does 'seduction culture' exist?
No, all the tramp styles are just manifestations of women having internalized the rape culture and institutionalized their victimhood. You really don't understand how this game is played, do you? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
Please pardon the tangent but does 'seduction culture' exist?
You mean something like those sleazy "pick up artists" who claim to have tricks and techniques guaranteed to work on any woman? I'm pretty sure "if you do X, Y, and Z the woman/vending machine will dispense one unit of vagina for you to enjoy" falls pretty well within the the "treating women like objects" end of the social spectrum.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
Please pardon the tangent but does 'seduction culture' exist?
You mean something like those sleazy "pick up artists" who claim to have tricks and techniques guaranteed to work on any woman? I'm pretty sure "if you do X, Y, and Z the woman/vending machine will dispense one unit of vagina for you to enjoy" falls pretty well within the the "treating women like objects" end of the social spectrum.
Or, just possibly, he had in mind posts like yours that assume that women can't possibly be manipulative creatures -- that must necessarily be a male role. Which of these two views objectifies women more? Enough already.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
All heterosexual MEN, when gathered in male groups will revert to a more juvenile status, including your precious legislative drafters.
Utter rubbish. I've observed plenty of groups of men, including plenty of heterosexual groups of men who didn't know I was a queer at the time, and to suggest that they ALL do this is... utter rubbish.
You'd be surprised how often it's possible for a bunch of men to get together and stay mature about it. Heck, the first place I'd start is church men's groups. I can't remember a single Men's Breakfast that descended into ribald sexual humour or juvenile hijinks.
Replacing an IT-industry-wide stereotype with an entire-gender stereotype is doing you no favours.
Also... why heterosexual men, particularly? Are you saying that homosexual men somehow manage to resist the temptation to be juvenile, seeing as we're so much more mature? Or have you just fallen into the trap of equating juvenile behaviour with being sex-obsessed, and being sex-obsessed with lusting after women?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
Please pardon the tangent but does 'seduction culture' exist?
You mean something like those sleazy "pick up artists" who claim to have tricks and techniques guaranteed to work on any woman? I'm pretty sure "if you do X, Y, and Z the woman/vending machine will dispense one unit of vagina for you to enjoy" falls pretty well within the the "treating women like objects" end of the social spectrum.
Or, just possibly, he had in mind posts like yours that assume that women can't possibly be manipulative creatures -- that must necessarily be a male role.
I'll take non sequiturs for four hundred, Alex. What, exactly, about self-procaimed pickup artists doesn't fall under moron's vague descriptor of "seduction culture"?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Of course, one of the markers of privilege is that a privileged group can never be criticized in isolation. There always has to be some kind of "but this other group also does something similar" to salve the privileged ego. (Such delicate darlings!) In that spirit, I'll point out that The Rules seems to be a similar "if you do X, the Y will result" geared towards how women should interact with men.
There. Feel better now, tclune?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
What's the difference between pick-up artists who claim they can get any woman they want and those books targeted at women telling them how to make any man in the universe fall in love with them/us?
I imagine if you say you can do it yourself without help, it's arrogant, but if you think you need a book to tell you how to do it, it's humble (or helping stimulate the economy).
And if you think can do it yourself but want to share the techniques with others via a book... well, it's a lot nicer than keeping it to yourself I guess. Sharing is caring.
[ 27. March 2013, 15:19: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'll take non sequiturs for four hundred, Alex. What, exactly, about self-procaimed pickup artists doesn't fall under moron's vague descriptor of "seduction culture"?
The context of contrasting it to "rape culture," which had been the emerging topic of this thread. But we can always ask moron which of us has more thoroughly distorted his intent if you feel the need.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
One thing I've been thinking about is how women may feel uncomfortable with a very slightly sexual joke made by a man (I don't deny that the tech industry is male biased) but equally, as someone who has worked in all female-staffed primary schools as an IT technician, I can tell you that there are plenty of women who seem to have no trouble talking about sex and men in ways that make me extremely uncomfortable in the staff room, yet they probably feel 'liberated' to be able to discuss vibrators, what they wish to do to Daniel Craig should they get him alone, etc. in a semi-public arena, and any suggestion that they are making men uncomfortable is the problem of the men folk. One of the schools has a male teacher their who told me he only went into the staff rooms for staff meetings where the head teacher would be there and would keep them under control, and saying 'that's not cool' hasn't worked yet. Yet he wouldn't dream of complaining about sexual harassment, because that's something only men can be guilty of?
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
I can tell you that there are plenty of women who seem to have no trouble talking about sex and men in ways that make me extremely uncomfortable in the staff room, yet they probably feel 'liberated' to be able to discuss vibrators, what they wish to do to Daniel Craig should they get him alone, etc. in a semi-public arena, and any suggestion that they are making men uncomfortable is the problem of the men folk.
This is pretty much the exact mirror of the original post's circumstances, no?
We have a primary school (an almost exclusively female environment) and sexual banter which is unwelcome to the male teacher, and makes him uncomfortable. And my point of view is the same. Occasional comments about Daniel Craig in tight underpants are fairly innocuous. An environment where explicit discussion of sex is the norm (eg. the vibrator discussion) is completely inappropriate for work (but a smutty joke about a cellphone being on vibrate would be OK).
Assuming your account is accurate, your friend should indeed complain, to his line management in the first instance.
His first line of approach should not be to write to the local newspaper.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
This is pretty much the exact mirror of the original post's circumstances, no?
Not until men are in as much danger and fear of being raped by women as women are of men. There is no exact mirror.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
This is pretty much the exact mirror of the original post's circumstances, no?
Not until men are in as much danger and fear of being raped by women as women are of men. There is no exact mirror.
I think it pretty much comes down to issues surrounding a sense of unequal power. A set of facts that might sound parallel is still not, a lot of the time, taking place within an equal, balanced context.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I think it pretty much comes down to issues surrounding a sense of unequal power. A set of facts that might sound parallel is still not, a lot of the time, taking place within an equal, balanced context.
That's exactly right.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
MT and Orfeo have it right.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
So cards on the table then: in the example cited (female staff "always" having sexual conversations in staff room, single male teacher is uncomfortable), is this sexual harassment, and what should happen?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
So cards on the table then: in the example cited (female staff "always" having sexual conversations in staff room, single male teacher is uncomfortable), is this sexual harassment, and what should happen?
Can't say without knowing more about the situation. Did you read what orfeo and I said?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Can't say without knowing more about the situation. Did you read what orfeo and I said?
Yes, and I think "fear of rape" is pretty much a non-sequitur. Very little sexual harassment involves a threat or fear of rape.
In the original post, Ms. Richards was not afraid that she was going to be raped on the floor of the conference room. That doesn't mean that she should have to put up with sexual innuendo.
Orfeo writes about a sense of unequal power, with which I mostly agree. In this example (a primary school), the power is held by women. In the vast majority of primary schools, the head teacher is a woman, the senior and long-serving staff are women, and male teachers are a rarity. If there's one man on site, he's probably the janitor.
How is that not a mirror of the female employee in the tech industry?
I'll agree that our female tech employee is more likely to face a proposition on a business trip than the male teacher on a school trip, and I'll agree that when he leaves work, the male teacher gets to take off his minority suit and become one of the lads down the pub, and so to the extent that the wider society treats men better, he's better off. I don't think those differences are important enough to make much of a difference here.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
In this example (a primary school), the power is held by women.
Also see the post from Kelly Alves half way up the page, where she talks about a man who quit his childcare job on day 1 because of sexual harassment by the female staff. Childcare would be another field where a small number of men are encroaching in to traditionally female territory.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Very little sexual harassment involves a threat or fear of rape.
Very little sexual harrassment may involve overt threats of rape, but rape is precisely what it's about.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
It's also about being treated like a thing, not a person with your own rights and boundaries.
Neither women nor men should be treated as things.
In Terry Pratchett's "Carpe Jugulem", Granny Weatherwax remarks that sin begins when you treat people as things.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I've worked in a primary school for the past 8 years - becoming the third male member of staff out of around 30 in total. Which is actually pretty good for a UK primary school.
I don't know: maybe I've exuded all the right "I do not do banter, I barely manage small talk, but I am a competent adult, just leave me alone to do my job" vibes, and I hate, positively *hate* staff nights out and point blank refuse to go on any of them any more because they're frankly awful. (Hell's teeth, drunk teachers? Thank you but no.). And it seems to me that there, rather than in the staff room is where boundaries get stretched.
But certainly, I can see a situation where I was being harassed by one of my colleagues, and the SMT inexplicably refuse to do anything about it, and the harassment went on - going over the Head to the press would not only be viable option, it might even be expedient. It would depend on how I felt about the LEA or my union rep, I think.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
You don't normally fork a repository
I've got a banner on the website for an app I make saying "Fork me on GitHub". I assure you I've never considered it as a sexual joke. That's just what the terminology is — I don't know of another word to use instead.
If someone is sniggering because it sounds a bit like Bum, I'd suggest that it's more about the mind of the beholder!
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Not until men are in as much danger and fear of being raped by women as women are of men. There is no exact mirror.
Ah yes, the old "all men are potential rapists" canard. It's bullshit. And prejudiced bullshit at that.
This may prove controversial, but let's look at some statistics:
Rapes in the UK (2006): 85,000 (source) - note that that's reported rapes, not convictions. Total adult male population of the UK (2011): 31,029,000 (source). Assuming each rape was by a different attacker, 0.2% of men are rapists.
By way of comparison, and to show how I feel about this, the number of convicted criminals who have black skin (2010) is 11,645 (source) - total derived by calculation based on the first table. The total black-skinned population of the UK (2011) is 1,148,738 (source). That means that 1.0% of black-skinned people in the UK are convicted criminals.
Now, it would clearly be utterly wrong for anyone to act as if every black-skinned person was a potential criminal. I think we can all agree about that. So why, in the name of all that's holy, is it deemed OK to act as if every man is a potential rapist when the actual statistics show that it's actually five times less likely? Surely if it's wrong to assume the worst of someone based on the actions of 1% of their ethnic group, it's just as wrong to assume the worst of someone based on the actions of 0.2% of their sex?
What's the difference between "women are in danger and fear of being raped by men" and "people are in danger and fear of suffering crime at the hands of black people"? Why is one statement acceptable and the other not? If it's not OK for someone to be scared of black people, why is it OK for a woman to be scared of men? And to clarify for the benefit of the usual suspects who will try to act as if I'm justifying racism or something, I'm saying that neither should be acceptable.
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Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
You don't normally fork a repository
I've got a banner on the website for an app I make saying "Fork me on GitHub". I assure you I've never considered it as a sexual joke. That's just what the terminology is — I don't know of another word to use instead.
If someone is sniggering because it sounds a bit like Bum, I'd suggest that it's more about the mind of the beholder!
This makes me wonder if Adria was being a bit disingenuous with the twitter post in the first place, and it was more about point scoring than actual offense that she really took. If she really thought that the comment was sexual, then she must have thought that it was homosexual - since the comment was about a man, not a woman.
So if it's about combating the culture, I'm sure she's as aware as anyone that in a puerile/sexist culture that homosexuals are as unwanted and badly treated as women - if not more so. Most people reading the twitter post (and probably most people on this thread) presumed that the 'repo forking' comment was directed at a woman, until they read otherwise. Which would mean that, if her outrage was geniune, that she would have assumed that the man who made the comment was a fellow minority, and that he felt liberated enough to make a comment about the attractiveness of another man could in one sense be seen as a good, progressive thing (despite the circumstantial inappropriateness). None of which was the case though, since the comment wasn't sexual in the first place.
Now, honestly, I want to think the best of her. Maybe she misheard "fork that guy's repo" as "fork that girl's repo", and took something from the tone it was said. I don't know. It just doesn't sit comfortably with me that she chose to leave the gender ambiguous in the original twitter post, and I don't see how she wouldn't have known that most people would assume it was a sexist comment directed at a woman. ISTM that she wanted her readers to think that, even though the original comment wasn't that way, and even she did construe it as sexual.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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