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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Episcopal Church
daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:
But I didn't pick you for a liberal. Perhaps you are.

Yes. Maybe I am.
Good Lord.

Perhaps you may yet be redeemed.

So, the likelihood of my redemption is directly linked to the degree of liberality? I thought you said you took scripture seriously, Evensong. [Confused]
The liberal scholar takes scripture far more seriously than others do because they attempt to ascertain what the scriptures meant in their time.

And that's the only way we can really attempt to understand what Jesus really meant.

Are you really suggesting that liberal theology is the only branch of theology that takes the original context and meaning seriously, Evensong? That's truly incredible.
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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Bloody hell, it's Bilbo Fucking Baggins!

Oh, so that's his middle name.

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--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Are you really suggesting that liberal theology is the only branch of theology that takes the original context and meaning seriously, Evensong? That's truly incredible.

Without wanting to speak for Evensong, it seems pretty clear that she is talking about a spectrum, not a binary state.
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Lyda*Rose

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
daronmedway: Well, I'm glad that you're glad that he's not a member of the Episcopal Church as much as I'm also glad that Malik3000 is a member of the Episcopal Church too.
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I'm half as glad that less than half of you is a member of the Episcopal Church half as well as you deserve.
I'm hoping I come out ahead with LeRoc on this one.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Bloody hell, it's Bilbo Fucking Baggins!

Poor Frodo. Still, no harm done.
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St Deird
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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Do those people also believe the Sun orbits the (motionless) Earth? I hope so, otherwise they're rejecting the Tradition of the Church and indeed rejecting God himself... [Biased]

You'd have to prove that.
Well, it's correct because it's true.

...what? That's the kind of proof you like, right?

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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.

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orfeo

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Oh for fuck's sake. Anyone who thinks that God's official representatives never need correcting has just thrown out the entire need for prophesy. That's a massive chunk of the Bible denied right there.

I mean, who needs all those awkward, wild and sometimes literally woolly prophets turning up and making things difficult when The Establishment is perfect?

[ 26. July 2013, 05:09: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh for fuck's sake. Anyone who thinks that God's official representatives never need correcting has just thrown out the entire need for prophesy. That's a massive chunk of the Bible denied right there.

Much as I'm on your side of this argument, orfeo, I think you've misrepresented the other side slightly here. It's not that God's official representatives never need correcting, rather that everything coming out of the ancient Church councils and so on is fully reliable and inspired by God. Not my view at all, but I think it's closer to what Ad Orientem et al are arguing.

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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orfeo

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'and so on' is a rather large field.

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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
'and so on' is a rather large field.

It's not something the Episcopal Church is very big on, not having a reliable seat of teaching authority, but this "and so on" is called Tradition. Scripture is part of this Tradition.

This thread is about the Episcopal Church. Amirite?

[ 27. July 2013, 14:46: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
'and so on' is a rather large field.

It's not something the Episcopal Church is very big on, not having a reliable seat of teaching authority, but this "and so on" is called Tradition. Scripture is part of this Tradition.

This thread is about the Episcopal Church. Amirite?

In which case 'and so on' is a vague field with a circular definition. Want something to be a rule people can't argue against? Hey presto, it's Tradition. Want something to be overturned? Hey presto, it's not.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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The Silent Acolyte

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What you say is, of course, unkind and unflattering, but stripped to a cartoon, it is largely the case.

A more generous—and useful—way of dealing with things is to make a reasoned consideration of what is, and what is not, authentic Tradition. There is really not anything presto about it—except in the hands of certain posters on this thread.

The Orthodox speak of the Canon of the Church, which incorporates much of the Church's life, the Scriptures, the writings of the Fathers, the writings of synods and councils, the manner of celebrating the liturgy and office, and more.

But wait. We are here to bash the godless Episcopalians.

[ 27. July 2013, 16:36: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

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The Silent Acolyte

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Lewis J. Patsavos, ++Bart's North American go-to guy on canon law has written this useful tract, The Canonical Tradition of the Orthodox Church. Being a canon lawyer, he naturally focuses his canon more on Law than on custom. It was Alkiviadis Calivas from whom I heard the expansive sense of Canon to include the entire Church life.
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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
What you say is, of course, unkind and unflattering, but stripped to a cartoon, it is largely the case.

A more generous—and useful—way of dealing with things is to make a reasoned consideration of what is, and what is not, authentic Tradition. There is really not anything presto about it—except in the hands of certain posters on this thread.

The Orthodox speak of the Canon of the Church, which incorporates much of the Church's life, the Scriptures, the writings of the Fathers, the writings of synods and councils, the manner of celebrating the liturgy and office, and more.

But wait. We are here to bash the godless Episcopalians.

I think I can safely agree that the way Ad Orientem throws Tradition around is not a method I would attribute to the Orthodox church generally.

I'm not here to bash anyone other than AO. I'm on vacation. Don't give me tasks.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I think I can safely agree that the way Ad Orientem throws Tradition around is not a method I would attribute to the Orthodox church generally.

ditto
quote:

I'm not here to bash anyone other than AO.

double ditto
quote:
I'm on vacation. Don't give me tasks.
ditto^3

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
What you say is, of course, unkind and unflattering, but stripped to a cartoon, it is largely the case.

A more generous—and useful—way of dealing with things is to make a reasoned consideration of what is, and what is not, authentic Tradition. There is really not anything presto about it—except in the hands of certain posters on this thread.

The Orthodox speak of the Canon of the Church, which incorporates much of the Church's life, the Scriptures, the writings of the Fathers, the writings of synods and councils, the manner of celebrating the liturgy and office, and more.

But wait. We are here to bash the godless Episcopalians.

I think I can safely agree that the way Ad Orientem throws Tradition around is not a method I would attribute to the Orthodox church generally.

I'm not here to bash anyone other than AO. I'm on vacation. Don't give me tasks.

It might help if we understood what each other means when we refer to tradition. I'm not entirely convinced that we're referring to the same thing. When I refer to it I do so in the context of the Apostolic faith and everything which it encompasses and I take a maximalist view, that is, I tend not to categorise things into non-essentials and essentials: either there is the whole faith or no faith.

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle." (2 Thess. 2:14)

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Zach82
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I'm thinking Orfeo is trying to say that wielding Holy Tradition without charity or an awareness of what it's like to be a gay believer in 2013 is not Tradition.

Though it's usually pretty perilous when I try to read people's minds. [Snore]

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Gamaliel
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I have a lot of sympathy with people who hold to a maximalist position. It makes a lot of sense. Except when it's taken to a binary extreme - 'either the whole faith or no faith.'

That's not maximalism, it's just being a maximum arsehole.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I have a lot of sympathy with people who hold to a maximalist position. It makes a lot of sense. Except when it's taken to a binary extreme - 'either the whole faith or no faith.'

That's not maximalism, it's just being a maximum arsehole.

Ok. I'm willing to admit that "no faith" goes a bit too far and am therefore willing to retract that part, but it's certainly not the same faith which is why, for instance, we insist that Filioque must go.
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I have a lot of sympathy with people who hold to a maximalist position. It makes a lot of sense. Except when it's taken to a binary extreme - 'either the whole faith or no faith.'

That's not maximalism, it's just being a maximum arsehole.

Ok. I'm willing to admit that "no faith" goes a bit too far and am therefore willing to retract that part, but it's certainly not the same faith which is why, for instance, we insist that Filioque must go.
It's a bit of a DH but if you do insist thus do you do so from a position defined by scripture or one defined by tradition?

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Ad Orientem
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Why make a distinction? I wouldn't. Tradition isn't something separate or parallel to the scriptures.
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Gamaliel
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You're doing it again, Ad Orientem.

I wish the filioque would go too. I wish that the Pope, Archbishop of Canterbury, all the various Free Church leaders and so on would suddenly decide to ditch it.

The fact that it exists, though, doesn't mean that the West as a whole believes in the double-processin of the Spirit or has a defective view of the Trinity. I agree that things could be clearer if that wretched clause we excised from the Western creeds. Bring it on.

It is capable of being misunderstood and it has been misunderstood and for whatever reason - pride, negligence, I dunno-what-else, none of us on the Western side of the Schism has yet revoked it. We should.

But that doesn't mean that we are practising a completely different faith. We are practising a variation on the Christian faith that we all share. We aren't practising an entirely different religion.

For goodness sake, man ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
What you say is, of course, unkind and unflattering, but stripped to a cartoon, it is largely the case.

A more generous—and useful—way of dealing with things is to make a reasoned consideration of what is, and what is not, authentic Tradition. There is really not anything presto about it—except in the hands of certain posters on this thread.

The Orthodox speak of the Canon of the Church, which incorporates much of the Church's life, the Scriptures, the writings of the Fathers, the writings of synods and councils, the manner of celebrating the liturgy and office, and more.

But wait. We are here to bash the godless Episcopalians.

I think I can safely agree that the way Ad Orientem throws Tradition around is not a method I would attribute to the Orthodox church generally.

I'm not here to bash anyone other than AO. I'm on vacation. Don't give me tasks.

It might help if we understood what each other means when we refer to tradition. I'm not entirely convinced that we're referring to the same thing. When I refer to it I do so in the context of the Apostolic faith and everything which it encompasses and I take a maximalist view, that is, I tend not to categorise things into non-essentials and essentials: either there is the whole faith or no faith.

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle." (2 Thess. 2:14)

And yet you've already said, multiple times, that belief in the earth being the centre of the solar system is non-essential. I'm not clear where you stand on hate for women though.

(And don't expect me to believe that true Christians were heliocentric before the Romans went and created a geocentric heresy, right about the same time as they added that filioque, and that if only Galileo had been Greek he would have been fine. People used to believe the earth stood at the centre because they believed the Bible said so. )

[ 28. July 2013, 16:22: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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RooK

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quote:
People used to believe the earth stood at the centre because they believed the Bible said so.
To be fair, people used to believe the earth stood at the centre because that is what it sort of looks like to a casual simian observation. The mention in the bible was probably just an assumed touchpoint, and likely was not intended to represent divine revelation.

The main point revealed is, obviously, is that religion is about making near-random assertions about reality and then fighting over them. All that stuff about benefitting humanity is pretty fucking marginal in comparison, objectively.

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
People used to believe the earth stood at the centre because they believed the Bible said so.
To be fair, people used to believe the earth stood at the centre because that is what it sort of looks like to a casual simian observation. The mention in the bible was probably just an assumed touchpoint, and likely was not intended to represent divine revelation.

The main point revealed is, obviously, is that religion is about making near-random assertions about reality and then fighting over them. All that stuff about benefitting humanity is pretty fucking marginal in comparison, objectively.

I disagree, in that the earth being at the centre becomes an important theological basis for establishing that it's all about us and we're terribly important. It's used to underpin the idea that the universe is for our benefit, rather than having us be located near a very ordinary sun in the outer suburbs of its galaxy.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Ad Orientem
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
What you say is, of course, unkind and unflattering, but stripped to a cartoon, it is largely the case.

A more generous—and useful—way of dealing with things is to make a reasoned consideration of what is, and what is not, authentic Tradition. There is really not anything presto about it—except in the hands of certain posters on this thread.

The Orthodox speak of the Canon of the Church, which incorporates much of the Church's life, the Scriptures, the writings of the Fathers, the writings of synods and councils, the manner of celebrating the liturgy and office, and more.

But wait. We are here to bash the godless Episcopalians.

I think I can safely agree that the way Ad Orientem throws Tradition around is not a method I would attribute to the Orthodox church generally.

I'm not here to bash anyone other than AO. I'm on vacation. Don't give me tasks.

It might help if we understood what each other means when we refer to tradition. I'm not entirely convinced that we're referring to the same thing. When I refer to it I do so in the context of the Apostolic faith and everything which it encompasses and I take a maximalist view, that is, I tend not to categorise things into non-essentials and essentials: either there is the whole faith or no faith.

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle." (2 Thess. 2:14)

And yet you've already said, multiple times, that belief in the earth being the centre of the solar system is non-essential. I'm not clear where you stand on hate for women though.

(And don't expect me to believe that true Christians were heliocentric before the Romans went and created a geocentric heresy, right about the same time as they added that filioque, and that if only Galileo had been Greek he would have been fine. People used to believe the earth stood at the centre because they believed the Bible said so. )

Geocentricism was never held to be part of the faith. It was merely, as RooK rightly points out, and observation of the physical universe. I know that you will bring up Galileo, as everyone does, but as I said before, as an Eastern Christian it's completely irrelevant, a red herring.
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Gamaliel
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Very conveniently ... [Devil]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
The main point revealed is, obviously, is that religion is about making near-random assertions about reality...

Put a nickel in and this is what comes out—every time.

This statement make you an ignoramus. You may not like the premises—they do seem preposterous—but the fruit of working rationally with these premises is anything but random.

And, since this is Hell, this statement makes you an ignoramus and an asshat.

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RooK

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
You may not like the premises—they do seem preposterous—but the fruit of working rationally with these premises is anything but random.

Notice how you translate "religion" as "your specific religion", and feel obliged to defend the careful rationality of it all. But step back and look at everything asserted by every religion, in all its contradictory splendour, and tell me that it might not look amusingly random from the outside.

Especially the bits about shellfish, fabric, and hair. Seriously, what the fuck.

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The Silent Acolyte

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Not at all. I was calling you an ignorant nickelodeon, stuffed full of predictable assholery.

Notice how you insert your comments into a thread about a specific religion and then translate the field to "every religion" to assert amusing randomness.

Not deft. Not even a "nice try, Buddy."

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Evensong
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oh dear Lord.

Please don't ban her Rook. She's really quite nice in real life.

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a theological scrapbook

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Chorister

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I fear the Silent Acolyte is not being very silent at all, but a complete noisebucket. To what end, I wonder?

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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RooK

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Let's consider the alleged predictable assholery.

Assholery: Presumably referring to it being not particularly well-meaning of the other participants.
How do you differentiate my commentary as being fundamentally less appropriate for the thread than all those chiming in and saying "I'm glad X is not a part of religion Y"? Especially when their reasons for doing so are, seemingly, for the exact type of things I was commenting about?

Predictable: Assuming that it refers to how you could guess what I might post given the context.
It seems to me like my philosophical/spiritual mien is no more consistent than any of the other well-established entities hereabouts. As such, it seems reasonable to assume that my level of predictability is fairly unremarkable. This troubles you why, exactly?

Perhaps what you are trying to imply is that I don't post about anything else, which would be a real problem. But you probably know that's not true; most of my posts are boringly meta (posting about posting/Hosting/chocorrit), and precious little about my own nasty, mean-spirited thoughts. Even when said nastiness is merely an appendix to a post mostly about grinding away at the weakest aspect of orfeo's argument (whom I cruelly hold to a higher standard even when I agree with him).

TL;DR - Stop pretending that you're new, you fishy-smelling queefstain.

[ 30. July 2013, 05:05: Message edited by: RooK ]

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RooK

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Please don't ban her Rook. She's really quite nice in real life.

  1. People do not get banned for being not-nice. They can get banned for being really fucking stupid, Evensong. After being incapable of following simple instructions, Evensong. Despite clear and obvious help being offered by both their friends and Crew, Evensong.
  2. I am reasonably certain that TSA can take anything I dish out. Much less have it cause her skull to rupture causing the level of mental retardation it would take to run afoul of Commandments or Crew.
  3. You're like an old dog that yelps every time a door slams because it got its tail caught in a door when it was a puppy. Except you probably can't fetch.
  4. I am corrupt, tyrannical, and entertain myself with the misery of others. Attract my attention at your peril.

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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:

[*]I am corrupt, tyrannical, and entertain myself with the misery of others. Attract my attention at your peril.

You've really let yourself go, haven't you?

--------------------
Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
oh dear Lord.

Please don't ban her Rook. She's really quite nice in real life.

It's damned obvious you don't know her in real life.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Evensong
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Rumbled.

How did you know? Is she RooK's wife?

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
[QUOTE][*]I am corrupt, tyrannical, and entertain myself with the misery of others. Attract my attention at your peril.
[/list]

Have you ever considered a career in the church? Seems like a good fit for your particular qualifications
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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Rumbled.

How did you know? Is she RooK's wife?

I know because for starters I can get his gender right.

[ 30. July 2013, 10:28: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Evensong
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Dafuck? TSA is male?

How comest thou to know this oh wise one?

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a theological scrapbook

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Dafuck? TSA is male?

How comest thou to know this oh wise one?

Observation. Much the same way that I know you pull all sorts of stupid remarks out of your keyboard because you've decided that Hell needs a clown.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Evensong
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While I doubt not your perspicacity, I remain unconvinced. I will however, be prepared to eat humble pie if proven wrong.

Are you sure you're not confusing her with Beeswax Altar? They are remarkably similar: intelligent, sassy hell denizens with an Anglo-Catholicism that makes one such as I feel the need to grovel at their toes to learn more of their fabulous craft.

Perhaps we should create a poll in the Circus?

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a theological scrapbook

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orfeo

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What, you want to determine gender by popular vote? That's a new one.

TSA is male. Definitively. In real life. Get over it.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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The Silent Acolyte

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How do you know? I don't remember playing I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Chromosome, I mean.

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Evensong
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Vindicated! [Snigger]
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RooK

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
How do you know?

Do you have a preference for how you're addressed? Or do you care? Just curious; because regardless of how you answer I'm going to continue to assume that you're yet another Lynda Carter clone.
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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
How do you know? I don't remember playing I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Chromosome, I mean.

Puts exposing yourself on the Internet in a whole new light.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Evensong
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# 14696

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Well we can share ultrasounds of our babies. I guess next we could do our full personal karyotypes.

Such a turn on!

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
With apologies to comet:
quote:
RooK:
Lynda Carter

you made me Google.

asshole.


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RooK

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Yep: Snark is extra fun coming out of a Lynda Carter-class chassis.
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