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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Episcopal Church
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
There, I said it. I'm an ex-Episcopalian, and not for the reasons that a lot of people become ex-Episcopalian these days.
You have a great opportunity, you. You are a grand old church with a serious history blended with a moderate streak that rejects the Victorian sex politics that seem to govern so many churches these days. You could have introduced a willingness to rationally explore difficult 21st century social changes while maintaining true to core Christian orthodoxy...
But instead you voted in a moonbat who never misses an opportunity to depersonalize Jesus and water down Christian symbols and beliefs until they are a lukewarm postmodern slurry of bullshit and good feelings. You do an end-run around dissenters by proclaiming that Scripture be damned, the Holy Spirit moved you to change course without any rigorous theology. When we hear about a clergyperson dabbling in Wicca or Buddhism or who doesn't believe in a God so much as a spiritual miasma of niceness, odds are he/she/ze is an Episcopal priest.
You've become the punchline to your own joke and lost your own witness. You look more and more like the Green Party in choir robes.
Maybe you'll get your shit together. In the meantime I'm going to go hang out with the Lutherans.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
Wahhh, wahhh, wahhh.
If you think the UCC or PCUSA or UUs are any different, then you're kidding yourself. In most towns, at least here in New England, you can choose between the child-molesting Catholics, the prosperity-gospel evangelicals, or the hippy-dippy mainliners.
But you know what? For every aging flower-child priest I see two or three earnest and orthodox young seminarians, and not a few older clergy who are carrying on the faith. Wait until the baby-boomers (that horrible generation) are gone and see what it looks like.
It turns out all of our churches are broken in some way. That's the Fall, I guess. Good luck finding what you're looking for.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Pommie Mick
Shipmate
# 12794
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Posted
TEC has lost its way.
When is that awful presiding bishop going to resign?
Posts: 185 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I think the UCC, PCUSA, and the UUs not being any different might be precisely Mockingale's fear, Bostonman.
The Episcopal Church has its problems to be sure. But God promised to guide and save it. This isn't the sickness unto death because "the gates of hell will never prevail against it." We just have to have faith until He renews it.
[ 12. July 2013, 02:33: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
To us Piskies on the ground, what ++Katherine says or doesn't say matters little. She isn't our pope. We just keep on keeping on, celebrating the sacraments, studying the Bible, believing the creeds, performing our outreach ministries, and supporting each other in Christian community. That's all most of us care about.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
To us Piskies on the ground, what ++Katherine says or doesn't say matters little. She isn't our pope. We just keep on keeping on, celebrating the sacraments, studying the Bible, believing the creeds, performing our outreach ministries, and supporting each other in Christian community. That's all most of us care about.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
The Presiding Bishop/Primate is primarily an administrator/pastor. He/she might not necessary be the best theologian.
+Katharine, it seems to me, has strong administrative skills and I have not heard any complaints that she is a bad pastor to her bishops*.
*Though it might be unseemly for a bishop to comment on that issue.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
Maybe you'll get your shit together. In the meantime I'm going to go hang out with the Lutherans.
Traitor! Traitor!
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I think the UCC, PCUSA, and the UUs not being any different might be precisely Mockingale's fear, Bostonman.
The Episcopal Church has its problems to be sure. But God promised to guide and save it. This isn't the sickness unto death because "the gates of hell will never prevail against it." We just have to have faith until He renews it.
Uh...Christ's promise was to the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. It was not to a specific denomination.
Christ made no such promise to the Anglican Church, nor I would suggest, to the Baptist, the Lutheran, or even the Roman Catholic Church.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
...In the meantime I'm going to go hang out with the Lutherans.
...and possibly TEC breathes a collective sigh of relief.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
I wouldn't join any church that would have me as a member.
Interestingly (possibly only to me) I resigned my membership of my denomination because I felt life circumstances precluded me from offering it what I think it was owed.
I still attend when I can and enjoy it. By when you claim a relational theology, you need the energy to maintain relationship. And I have neither time nor energy currently. It's a season. But I felt under pressure when identifying with the denomination/church. I now feel free and happier in that I can attend when I can and take rather than having to give all the time.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I think the UCC, PCUSA, and the UUs not being any different might be precisely Mockingale's fear, Bostonman.
The Episcopal Church has its problems to be sure. But God promised to guide and save it. This isn't the sickness unto death because "the gates of hell will never prevail against it." We just have to have faith until He renews it.
Uh...Christ's promise was to the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. It was not to a specific denomination.
Christ made no such promise to the Anglican Church, nor I would suggest, to the Baptist, the Lutheran, or even the Roman Catholic Church.
Who else is going to be the Episcopal Church's salvation?
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Mockingale--
Sorry about your situation. Seriously.
That having been said, you might have fun with the Old Lutheran site. Great "Lutheran Fun" section!
You might also check out the "Lake Woebegon" sections of the wildly-popular Prairie Home Companion radio show. They're about life in a fictional Minnesota town, and often include stories about the Lutherans there, and their church.
Best of luck to you!
[ 12. July 2013, 07:47: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Who else is going to be the Episcopal Church's salvation?
There's a phrase that seems very odd to my ears! Two questions / thoughts:
- Maybe nobody will be the Episcopal Church's salvations. Denominations come and go, after all...
- What does it even mean for salvation to come to a church / denomination? Aren't people saved, not organisations?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
I wouldn't join any church that would have me as a member.
Interestingly (possibly only to me) I resigned my membership of my denomination because I felt life circumstances precluded me from offering it what I think it was owed.
I still attend when I can and enjoy it. By when you claim a relational theology, you need the energy to maintain relationship. And I have neither time nor energy currently. It's a season. But I felt under pressure when identifying with the denomination/church. I now feel free and happier in that I can attend when I can and take rather than having to give all the time.
Very curious.
I've never felt an obligation to my church.
Perhaps I should have?
Methinks you can still have relational theology without obligation.
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Who else is going to be the Episcopal Church's salvation?
There's a phrase that seems very odd to my ears! Two questions / thoughts:
- Maybe nobody will be the Episcopal Church's salvations. Denominations come and go, after all...
- What does it even mean for salvation to come to a church / denomination? Aren't people saved, not organisations?
Zach is weird. I haven't the foggiest what he's on about.
His statements only make sense if God saves all denominations.
Unless of course he reverts to the One True Church.
But then he'd still have to decide whether that's the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I think the UCC, PCUSA, and the UUs not being any different might be precisely Mockingale's fear, Bostonman.
The Episcopal Church has its problems to be sure. But God promised to guide and save it. This isn't the sickness unto death because "the gates of hell will never prevail against it." We just have to have faith until He renews it.
Uh...Christ's promise was to the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. It was not to a specific denomination.
Christ made no such promise to the Anglican Church, nor I would suggest, to the Baptist, the Lutheran, or even the Roman Catholic Church.
Who else is going to be the Episcopal Church's salvation?
It took me two goes to work out exactly what Anglican_Brat meant. The Bride is the whole church, in it's glorious messy entirety. And the promises about the gates of hell not prevailing are for the whole church - Anglicans, Baptists, Catholics of all kinds etc. Not just for one bit of it. Your post read a bit like you thought that God and the Anglican's had a special relationship and the rest of us weren't included.
OTH, even when God does save the whole church, what it will look when He's done and whether you'll like it is another discussion entirely! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Tubbs
[ 12. July 2013, 12:14: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Tubbs:
quote:
Your post read a bit like you thought that God and the Anglican's had a special relationship and the rest of us weren't included.
Well, God is an Englishman, after all. Perhaps it's the 40th article?
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
To us Piskies on the ground, what ++Katherine says or doesn't say matters little. She isn't our pope. We just keep on keeping on, celebrating the sacraments, studying the Bible, believing the creeds, performing our outreach ministries, and supporting each other in Christian community. That's all most of us care about.
The kinder and more eloquent version of what I'm trying to say. While the leadership is going all earth-mother-whatever, it doesn't mean that's true of the overwhelming majority of laypeople, deacons, priests, or---and I think this is true---bishops.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Zach is weird. I haven't the foggiest what he's on about.
Wow. Coming from someone whose ideas are so foggy, that's really saying something.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I think the UCC, PCUSA, and the UUs not being any different might be precisely Mockingale's fear, Bostonman.
The Episcopal Church has its problems to be sure. But God promised to guide and save it. This isn't the sickness unto death because "the gates of hell will never prevail against it." We just have to have faith until He renews it.
Uh...Christ's promise was to the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. It was not to a specific denomination.
Christ made no such promise to the Anglican Church, nor I would suggest, to the Baptist, the Lutheran, or even the Roman Catholic Church.
Who else is going to be the Episcopal Church's salvation?
It took me two goes to work out exactly what Anglican_Brat meant. The Bride is the whole church, in it's glorious messy entirety. And the promises about the gates of hell not prevailing are for the whole church - Anglicans, Baptists, Catholics of all kinds etc. Not just for one bit of it. Your post read a bit like you thought that God and the Anglican's had a special relationship and the rest of us weren't included.
OTH, even when God does save the whole church, what it will look when He's done and whether you'll like it is another discussion entirely!
Tubbs
Anglicanism does have a definition of what constitutes the Church, and it while isn't exclusively Anglican Churches, it doesn't include every denomination, evensong's foggy conclusions aside.
If you don't believe that Anglicanism is heir to the promises of Jesus, then I urge you to find a Church that is.
[ 12. July 2013, 13:36: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Anglicanism does have a definition of what constitutes the Church, and it while isn't exclusively Anglican Churches, it doesn't include every denomination, evensong's foggy conclusions aside.
I'm sorry Zach. We're not the real church remember? We're not saved. We're evil. We spring from the spawn of Satan - The Reformation.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I think the UCC, PCUSA, and the UUs not being any different might be precisely Mockingale's fear, Bostonman.
The Episcopal Church has its problems to be sure. But God promised to guide and save it. This isn't the sickness unto death because "the gates of hell will never prevail against it." We just have to have faith until He renews it.
Uh...Christ's promise was to the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. It was not to a specific denomination.
Christ made no such promise to the Anglican Church, nor I would suggest, to the Baptist, the Lutheran, or even the Roman Catholic Church.
Who else is going to be the Episcopal Church's salvation?
It took me two goes to work out exactly what Anglican_Brat meant. The Bride is the whole church, in it's glorious messy entirety. And the promises about the gates of hell not prevailing are for the whole church - Anglicans, Baptists, Catholics of all kinds etc. Not just for one bit of it. Your post read a bit like you thought that God and the Anglican's had a special relationship and the rest of us weren't included.
OTH, even when God does save the whole church, what it will look when He's done and whether you'll like it is another discussion entirely!
Tubbs
Anglicanism does have a definition of what constitutes the Church, and it while isn't exclusively Anglican Churches, it doesn't include every denomination, evensong's foggy conclusions aside.
If you don't believe that Anglicanism is heir to the promises of Jesus, then I urge you to find a Church that is.
Er ... I believe that the church is the bride of Christ and heir to the promises of Jesus. But I don't think that any church group has the right to define what is and isn't a church. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I should hope that every Church at least has an idea of what being a Church means, Tubbs.
But the real questions for me here are- who will save the Episcopal Church- conservative or liberal clergy-- or Jesus Christ, whose promises we can trust? Do we or do we not believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Episcopal Church, and will renew it when it errs?
To all this I say "I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." Because Jesus promised.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Anglicanism does have a definition of what constitutes the Church, and it while isn't exclusively Anglican Churches, it doesn't include every denomination, evensong's foggy conclusions aside.
I'm sorry Zach. We're not the real church remember? We're not saved. We're evil. We spring from the spawn of Satan - The Reformation.
I love how the assumption seems to be that Christianity went on hiatus from about 150 to 1500 AD, when Luther and Zwingli discovered the Bible hiding somewhere or other.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Anglicanism does have a definition of what constitutes the Church, and it while isn't exclusively Anglican Churches, it doesn't include every denomination, evensong's foggy conclusions aside.
I'm sorry Zach. We're not the real church remember? We're not saved. We're evil. We spring from the spawn of Satan - The Reformation.
I love how the assumption seems to be that Christianity went on hiatus from about 150 to 1500 AD, when Luther and Zwingli discovered the Bible hiding somewhere or other.
Never said it did. Honestly, it's enough for me to defend what I actually post. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
But the real questions for me here are- who will save the Episcopal Church- conservative or liberal clergy-- or Jesus Christ, whose promises we can trust? Do we or do we not believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Episcopal Church, and will renew it when it errs?
I'm really uncomfortable with this line of argument because ISTM that not very far down the path is 'One True Church' territory..
Christian denominations disagree with one another on a range of issues, that much is beyond dispute. So if we interpret Christ's promises about the church as meaning that he will keep it from error, then of all those denominations only one can be the church in all its fullness, no?
I think the only other option is to interpret Christ's promise in some other way. Exactly what that way is, I'm not sure, but I don't think it can mean the church will be preserved from all doctrinal error.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
It's really exasperating for people to keep arguing against things they only imagined I said. How on earth do you reconcile what I said- "the Holy Spirit guides the Episcopal Church, and will renew it when it errs" and what you imagine I said- "So if we interpret Christ's promises about the church as meaning that he will keep it from error, then of all those denominations only one can be the church in all its fullness, no?"
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Zach82, you said 'the Holy Spirit guides the Episcopal Church, and will renew it when it errs'. Does this also apply to other denominations? If so, what's going on when your denom and another denom disagree with each other on a certain matter of doctrine? At least one of the denoms in question is in error, yes? Meaning that, on this specific doctrinal point, the Holy Spirit is not guiding the denom that's in error. Or so ISTM.
Maybe you could flesh out exactly what effect you envisage this guidance by the Holy Spirit has. I assumed you meant it would keep the church from any doctrinal inaccuracy, but I guess I've misunderstood you. Or there's a hole in my argument above, which I've missed. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I already said what happens when the Church errs, SCK. Your inability to see that what I said and your impressions are completely contradictory is a real demotivator here.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
I realize this is not Purgatory, so my apologies.
Zach, do you think that if at some point in the future there vanished from the earth anything recognizable as "Anglicanism," yet there still persisted churches that possessed the four elements of the Lambeth Quadrilatteral (though maybe along with other things, like the Papacy or Orthodoxy's Holy Tradition), that Christ's promise to the Church would be called into question?
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I should hope that every Church at least has an idea of what being a Church means, Tubbs.
But the real questions for me here are- who will save the Episcopal Church- conservative or liberal clergy-- or Jesus Christ, whose promises we can trust? Do we or do we not believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Episcopal Church, and will renew it when it errs?
To all this I say "I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." Because Jesus promised.
He did. But he promised the whole church not just the Anglicans. Which is kind of where I came in.
I'm off to get some tea. I think I'm going to need it!
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Anglicanism does have a definition of what constitutes the Church, and it while isn't exclusively Anglican Churches, it doesn't include every denomination, evensong's foggy conclusions aside.
I'm sorry Zach. We're not the real church remember? We're not saved. We're evil. We spring from the spawn of Satan - The Reformation.
I love how the assumption seems to be that Christianity went on hiatus from about 150 to 1500 AD, when Luther and Zwingli discovered the Bible hiding somewhere or other.
Never said it did. Honestly, it's enough for me to defend what I actually post.
Ooops! Sorry that came across as a criticism of your post, Zach. It was meant to be a whimsical observation on a Reformed attitude I've sometimes heard around, but really haven't heard so much here on the Ship. Rather it comes from some people who actually think that RCs and Piskies are the "Spawn of Satan" because we aren't real "Bible believing" Christians.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I already said what happens when the Church errs, SCK. Your inability to see that what I said and your impressions are completely contradictory is a real demotivator here.
No need for the prickliness! Contrary to the spirit of the Hell board (sorry, Hosts...), I was discussing in good faith.
I've missed where you explained what happens when the Church errs, and in any case that's not quite what I asked. I want to know your opinion of what Christ's guidance to keep the Church from error looks like, because I don't see a way out of the conclusion that you think TEC is the One True Church.
But you're saying that's not what you think, so obviously I've not understood you correctly and I ask again for your help with this.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
I realize this is not Purgatory, so my apologies.
Zach, do you think that if at some point in the future there vanished from the earth anything recognizable as "Anglicanism," yet there still persisted churches that possessed the four elements of the Lambeth Quadrilatteral (though maybe along with other things, like the Papacy or Orthodoxy's Holy Tradition), that Christ's promise to the Church would be called into question?
My understanding is more the other way around. Even if Anglicanism errs, God is still acting to bring it, all Christians, and the whole world into the fullness of the truth and life of the Church. Part of that, I dare say the greatest part, is relying on the promises of God.
The Holy Spirit does guide all Christians, and it's a real pain in the ass that people have gotten it into their head that I said otherwise.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
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Originally posted by Zach82:
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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
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Originally posted by Evensong:
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Originally posted by Zach82:
Anglicanism does have a definition of what constitutes the Church, and it while isn't exclusively Anglican Churches, it doesn't include every denomination, evensong's foggy conclusions aside.
I'm sorry Zach. We're not the real church remember? We're not saved. We're evil. We spring from the spawn of Satan - The Reformation.
I love how the assumption seems to be that Christianity went on hiatus from about 150 to 1500 AD, when Luther and Zwingli discovered the Bible hiding somewhere or other.
Never said it did. Honestly, it's enough for me to defend what I actually post.
Ooops! Sorry that came across as a criticism of your post, Zach. It was meant to be a whimsical observation on a Reformed attitude I've sometimes heard around, but really haven't heard so much here on the Ship. Rather it comes from some people who actually think that RCs and Piskies are the "Spawn of Satan" because we aren't real "Bible believing" Christians.
Ah, sorry about that. Perhaps I should be more forgiving of the people who read me wrong on this thread, if I'm going to go about misreading others. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
I realize this is not Purgatory, so my apologies.
Zach, do you think that if at some point in the future there vanished from the earth anything recognizable as "Anglicanism," yet there still persisted churches that possessed the four elements of the Lambeth Quadrilatteral (though maybe along with other things, like the Papacy or Orthodoxy's Holy Tradition), that Christ's promise to the Church would be called into question?
My understanding is more the other way around. Even if Anglicanism errs, God is still acting to bring it, all Christians, and the whole world into the fullness of the truth and life of the Church. Part of that, I dare say the greatest part, is relying on the promises of God.
The Holy Spirit does guide all Christians, and it's a real pain in the ass that people have gotten it into their head that I said otherwise.
I guess I took your original comment to say that if Anglicanism/The Episcopal Church as an identifiable entity were to disappear this would call into question Christ's promise to the Church. So I'm now taking it that this was not what you're saying.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Zach82, you said 'the Holy Spirit guides the Episcopal Church, and will renew it when it errs'. Does this also apply to other denominations? If so, what's going on when your denom and another denom disagree with each other on a certain matter of doctrine? At least one of the denoms in question is in error, yes? Meaning that, on this specific doctrinal point, the Holy Spirit is not guiding the denom that's in error. Or so ISTM.
Maybe it doesn't fucking matter what doctrines we happen to believe. Maybe it really is just about having love for one another. Maybe whether the fruit is good or bad is more important than which type of fruit it happens to be.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
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Originally posted by Zach82:
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Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
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Originally posted by Zach82:
I think the UCC, PCUSA, and the UUs not being any different might be precisely Mockingale's fear, Bostonman.
The Episcopal Church has its problems to be sure. But God promised to guide and save it. This isn't the sickness unto death because "the gates of hell will never prevail against it." We just have to have faith until He renews it.
Uh...Christ's promise was to the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. It was not to a specific denomination.
Christ made no such promise to the Anglican Church, nor I would suggest, to the Baptist, the Lutheran, or even the Roman Catholic Church.
Who else is going to be the Episcopal Church's salvation?
No, you miss my point entirely. Our Lord, as I understand it, only made the promise to the apostolic community which later over time split into multiple churches. To suggest that this promise applies to the denominations is not only theologically problematic, but historically false. Denominations spring up, merge, and die off all the time.
By your logic, when the Protestant churches of India merged together and the separate Anglican Church ceased to exist, Christ basically broke his promise to the Anglicans of the Indian Subcontinent.
If TEC merges with ELCA in the next century, will you proclaim that Christ has broke his promise to Episcopalians?
To me, the promise is to the apostolic community, that in every generation, there will be a group of people dedicated to following the way of Jesus. It doesn't mean that specific denominations are given a promise to live in perpetuity.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
You've become the punchline to your own joke and lost your own witness. You look more and more like the Green Party in choir robes.
Other than that a church should not specifically represent any political party, what's wrong with the Green Party? Are the corporately-prostituted Republicans and Democrats any closer to the Christian ideal?
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I've never felt an obligation to my church.
Perhaps I should have?
This is definitely not saying what you or anyone else should do in their own situation, but speaking just for myself, I "officially" joined, i.e., was received into TEC after several years of attending my current parish because I felt I wanted to make more of a commitment to a church community that meant a lot to me. However I didn't feel obligated in the "you're going to hell unless …" sense.
BTW, Mockingale, what group of Lutherans are you planning to hang out with? The Missouri synod? The Wisconsin Synod? Or the one in communion with us hippy-dippy Piskies, i.e., the ELCA?
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
I guess I took your original comment to say that if Anglicanism/The Episcopal Church as an identifiable entity were to disappear this would call into question Christ's promise to the Church. So I'm now taking it that this was not what you're saying.
No, it's not what I'm saying, since that would be a logical contradiction. I am saying that the hope of the Church, any Church, is the promises of God.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Well I think...
Don't hurt yourself.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Maybe it doesn't fucking matter what doctrines we happen to believe. Maybe it really is just about having love for one another. Maybe whether the fruit is good or bad is more important than which type of fruit it happens to be.
I say the truth matters.
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
By your logic, when the Protestant churches of India merged together and the separate Anglican Church ceased to exist, Christ basically broke his promise to the Anglicans of the Indian Subcontinent.
That's not my logic it all, since I don't imagine that having a Church called "The Anglican Church of..." constitutes apostolic continuity.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Thinking about this thread while running errands has left me perplexed. All I've really suggested is that the Anglican Church is really part of the Church of Christ, and that we can therefore trust God to renew the Church if we have faith.
What, on this green earth, is so upsetting to people about that?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I think what people are objecting to is that you seem to be saying that God's renewing the Church necessarily includes God's renewing TEC.
For any given denomination, part of the renewal of the Church might include God paring away that denomination. Even if the denomination is truly part of the Church, God's promise is to the Church as a whole, not to any specific institutional part of it. For example, God's renewal and preservation of the Church might include a future with fewer denominations, or with different denominations.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
Wait until the baby-boomers (that horrible generation) are gone and see what it looks like.
Don't start the party yet, some of us may still be here for another twenty years or more. We may be horrible in many ways but we did make some nice headway in the fight for equal rights for people of all races, genders and sexual orientation. Of course we did make some mistakes. We raised quite a few entitled brats who breezed through the doors we opened only to turn and sneer at us.
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
I'm with Twilight, what the fuck? How are the Boomers a horrible generation? Thanks to them I've not had to deal with near the level of sexism my mother did. racism ain't fixed but it's loads better.
I'm a kid of boomers and I'm grateful. So far, no generation's been perfect. I'd be willing to bet none ever will be.
[edited to fix slightly embarrassing typo 'cause I can.]
[ 12. July 2013, 20:07: Message edited by: comet ]
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
I wouldn't join any church that would have me as a member.
Interestingly (possibly only to me) I resigned my membership of my denomination because I felt life circumstances precluded me from offering it what I think it was owed.
I still attend when I can and enjoy it. By when you claim a relational theology, you need the energy to maintain relationship. And I have neither time nor energy currently. It's a season. But I felt under pressure when identifying with the denomination/church. I now feel free and happier in that I can attend when I can and take rather than having to give all the time.
Very curious.
I've never felt an obligation to my church.
Perhaps I should have?
Methinks you can still have relational theology without obligation
It is hard for me to explain. Following Christ is easy. He says love me, yourself, everyone else and creation to the best of your abilities. And don't sweat it when you screw up. I already fixed it with 2 bits of 2x4 and some nails. And some suffering, real suffering.
But the church is a brand. If I identify with a specific denomination, then I identify with their tenets. It doesn't mean I shouldn't work on them from within if I disagree but it does mean publicly, I own the brand. If I cannot uphold the brand, walk the walk, speak the speak, then I misrepresent the brand. I don't think Christ cares, but I cannot dishonour those who can currently fully identify with the brand.
It is the difference between loving football and loving your specific team. We all* love football, but don't ever wear the wrong team jumper to your clubrooms.
*yes I know you don't, just try to overlook my generalisation, just this once.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
Wahhh, wahhh, wahhh.
There isn't much else to say, but I'm not going to let that stop me.
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
In the meantime I'm going to go hang out with the Lutherans.
Like malik3000, I want to know which Lutherans you will grace with your presence -- the Missouri Synod, which practices closed communion and advocates creationism? The Wisconsin Synod, which teaches that gay sex is a sin and rejects most modern Biblical scholarship? Or the ELCA, which, as malik3000 points out, is in full communion with the Episcopal Church?
It's gotta be the ELCA, so ha ha! You still have TEC cooties!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I'm with Twilight, what the fuck? How are the Boomers a horrible generation? Thanks to them I've not had to deal with near the level of sexism my mother did. racism ain't fixed but it's loads better.
I'm a kid of boomers and I'm grateful. So far, no generation's been perfect. I'd be willing to bet none ever will be.
The generations that followed the boomers have have given us - the further obscene enrichment of the non-productive predatory super-rich,
- the corporatizing of nearly everything,
- the abandonment of a sense of humanity and morality in public life to be replaced by a dog-eat-dog market view of everything,
- the rise of the paranoid security state,
- the stripping away of hard-won rights won by the generation of the 60s.
- a US of A that has totally lost its way,
- and much more
That is so much better, isn't it, Bostonman?
Yes, Dr. King, Cesar Chavez, Fannie Lou Hamer, Jonathan Daniels, and so many others, truly representatives of a horrible generation.
[ 12. July 2013, 21:56: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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