|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Slightest Discomfort
|
Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
|
Posted
I'm not sure where to put this and expect it to sink like a stone, but I've been wondering about the fairly recent phenomenon of Christians, (especially Anglicans as they are the ones I know best)to be extremely afraid of the slightest discomfort in church.
Even Somerset Maugham hinted he thought Christians thought God wanted them to be slightly uncomfortable, but in the shriveling branches of Anglicanism I have seen lately there is an utter abhorrence of any and all discomfort.
Very, very old people will kneel but younger elderly people won't because of their knees or back. "Let us pray" once meant "kneel and pray," now it most often means "remain standing" or "gather your papers and sit down."
Fasting or even giving something up for Lent is practically unheard of nowadays expect among very young enthusiasts for Old Time Religion, as far as I know. When I cite rubrics in the prayer book mentioning fasting or abstinence I'm almost always met with "I never knew that was there."
In churches that have a choir, I've seen several times members quite openly put their thermoses in their stalls or even carry them in along with their hymn books to sip during the service.
Bishops and priests frequently request for a glass of water or something to be placed on the pulpit or credence and I've even it placed on the altar a couple of times.
I've seen whole families going to breakfast before church, I gather completely unaware of the ancient tradition of fasting, though I have met a few elderly (80+) people tell me they won't even take their medicine before Communion on Sundays. I'm not talking about flaming spikes; just average old church goers of MOTR to low church spirituality.
But on the other hand I see full Pentecostal churches which practice fasting and encourage it.
They can hold their hands up for almost the whole service, and don't tell me that doesn't hurt!~
I wonder if mainliners' needs for blankets in the winter and cold air in the summer and no kneeling or fasting or even stewardship campaigns to "give till it hurts" have hurt the church's witness rather than helped it.
Other churches seem to have the capacity to "offer it up" more than mainliners. Or am I again making too much of nothing?
--------------------
All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Hmmm! You're on to something there, Mama T.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
Modern churches (evangelical? others?) seem to want to get rid of pews and replace them with comfy chairs; also to have well-heated buildings rather than expect worshippers to keep their coats on. The reasons get mixed up with evangelism, with the argument that people won't be attracted to churches without lots of home comforts, but I suspect it's often to the convenience of the already-churchgoers.
I remember our new vicar arriving at a very cold time of year and expecting the choir to go and sing at an outdoor service in their very flimsy thin cassocks. When we complained, he declared 'A load of wimps, the lot of you!'. He was well wrapped up in his thick woollen cape at the time....
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
And don't get me started on loos. However did people manage years ago, with no basic facilities?
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
They wore many layers of absorbent clothing. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
|
Posted
Funny thing is, Angloid, the very same people seem to relish torturing themselves with exercise, yoga, cleaning diets, veganism and so on.
During a Lenten study one year, a nurse seemed to be genuinely offended when I brought up fasting in Lent and before receiving the MBS and I was met with several "but what about this or that scenario?" until I mentioned that patients usually have to fast before surgery don't they?
She thought fasting is beneficial as long as it was recommended by any source but the church.
I find this weird. People will fast because of a Facebook post or go without electricity for a day or an hour on earth day, but forgo breakfast before Mass?
--------------------
All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Avoiding physical discomfort is not the same as avoiding spiritual discomfort, and the latter seems to me to be much more important. Plus, while churches could do a lot better in this area, we are much more aware of the needs of people with disabilities and other physical needs. What about diabetics who need to keep glucose tablets with them, or those whose doctors have advised them not to kneel in prayer? What is the difference between sitting to pray and kneeling to pray - surely it is about the kneeling of the heart? It seems uncharitable in the extreme not to let people have a drink of water with them or a blanket in cold weather, and IME it's the church's lack of charity in general that contributes to its failure, not providing for people's needs.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
|
Posted
I can't always kneel because of fluctuating physical health. Currently I'm in a non-kneeling stage. I much prefer to kneel when I can, though, as I find that it leads to a much better focus on prayer.
As for the temperature of churches, it's no secret that most English churches are ridiculously cold in the winter, and often too warm in (very brief) summer. During this year's very cold Holy Week, I noticed that the only places in the church that were habitable were the confessional and at the altar rail. Some theological lesson in that, perhaps.
--------------------
'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
Some people can't get through a whole service without continuously checking their smartphone for messages.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Avoiding physical discomfort is not the same as avoiding spiritual discomfort, and the latter seems to me to be much more important. Plus, while churches could do a lot better in this area, we are much more aware of the needs of people with disabilities and other physical needs. What about diabetics who need to keep glucose tablets with them, or those whose doctors have advised them not to kneel in prayer? What is the difference between sitting to pray and kneeling to pray - surely it is about the kneeling of the heart? It seems uncharitable in the extreme not to let people have a drink of water with them or a blanket in cold weather, and IME it's the church's lack of charity in general that contributes to its failure, not providing for people's needs.
That's what I hear all the time, though I have yet to see a church that insists on kneeling or forbids blankets or bottles of water. People will gladly leave things like this at home and not mind it a bit if a museum or anything but a church says "no food or drinks" immediately react in horror to a suggestion of putting up with a bit of discomfort in church.
Basically, it's about discipline. Does anyone honestly think the church wants to insist that arthritics kneel or alcoholics be forced alcohol down their throats?
But whenever I bring up "offering it up" (an old RC practice from the 50s I think) I'm met with "but what about all the people that cannot kneel/stand/whatever. I am not talking about them. I'm talking about traditional, respectful postures and nominal fasting--of course if your doctor says you must take a pill with food upon arising--no one is going to bat an eyelid and never has.
--------------------
All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Some people can't get through a whole service without continuously checking their smartphone for messages.
I'm a little more old fashioned - I keep a copy of the BCP tucked away in my stall for getting through the really boring sermons... Can't beat reading the preface bits, or the table of affinity ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
In Lutheranism there is always a force, which I have come to term Keepin It Real. It biases itself toward innovation, and rejects tradition at every juncture. There is room for questioning tradition, no doubt, but it is pure hubris to always think one's own novel thoughts must be the correct way, simply because tradition=old=wrong/out of touch.
Example:
Mabel: You can't do that.
Barney 'Martin Luther' Stinson: Challenge accepted!
[ 14. August 2013, 23:08: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
|
Posted
Mama -- People don't do it -- fasting before communion, for example -- because no one has ever told them about it and they haven't a clue what you're talking about.
Who didn't tell them -- why, their parents, their priests and all the other godly people who raised them in the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and so on.
Many (not all) of the dieciplines of which you speak are/were common to a very small stream within Anglicanism -- I'm reasonably sure that when I started fasting before communion once Iwas confirmed, I was the only one in the parish -- and I certainly had not been told about this by the clergy or adults of the congregation or my familiy. So look to those you thought were practising those disciplines, and ask them why they didn't teach their children -- and ask their clergy why they didn't teach their children, and ask your brothers and sisters among the ordained today if they are teaching their parishioners.
JOhn
And btw, I stopped fasting before communion when, with 3 small children and as music director in charge of a band that sometimes numbered over 20, it would be up at 7 am and no food before 12. I could stand the lack of food, but people had issues with my temper -- and those issues stopped when I started eating brakfast. YMMV, of course, but I think I chose the better course for my family and for the responsibilities I exercised in the parish. And as a consequence, none of my children knew about fasting before communion.
J
[ 14. August 2013, 23:37: Message edited by: John Holding ]
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
Forgive me, but have you looked at the Gospel Lesson for this next week?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2012:49-56&version=NIV
Seems to me, if anything the Gospel Lesson is saying if you are truly following me, you can expect a lot of discomfort.
So what if the elderly can't kneel like they used to (I know I can't). So what if the pews are too hard. So what if people complain about the heat--or lack of heat--in a building.
There are people who still are experiencing real discomfort because of their profession of faith.
Let's get real people. Live your faith and see what discomfort can really mean.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
I don't know what this says about the church environment I grew up in, and that is that whilst the fast and abstinence during Lent and on Fridays was mentioned, fasting before Communion was not. I suspect that the reason for this was that one of the services was so damn early that breakfast would have to be foregone just to get there on time, and the other morning service had traditionally been Matins.
'Sit-stand-kneel' seems to have been replaced by 'sit-stand-slump' in my parish, and the worst offenders are not necessarily those of a certain age. It seems to be connected with a certain anti-tradition mindset some folks have. They seem to want to experience Church like they experience most of the universe, sat in a recliner with a remote in one hand and a drink by the other.
PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
a glass of water or something to be placed on the pulpit
I'm with you on the ubiquitous plastic water bottles, MT, but as someone who preaches reasonably often, I can assure you that the glass of water in the pulpit is a mere necessity and not a luxury.
Do you really want sermons interrupted with extended periods of coughing?
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Bishops and priests frequently request for a glass of water or something to be placed on the pulpit or credence and I've even it placed on the altar a couple of times.
Our priest sometimes has a glass of water available, from which she will take a sip if her voice gives out in the middle of the sermon. She doesn't keep it there just in case she feels a bit thirsty.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Some people can't get through a whole service without continuously checking their smartphone for messages.
That's usually a symptom of a bigger problem - irrelevant service content, usually a crap preacher.
--------------------
If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Some people can't get through a whole service without continuously checking their smartphone for messages.
That's usually a symptom of a bigger problem - irrelevant service content, usually a crap preacher.
That is why we have prayerbooks in the pews, so as to examine the prefaces and tables of affinity. Bibles work as well, and I have happily read chapter after chapter and epistle after epistle as the cleric gave us their Joycean stream-of-consciousness.
John Holding's point about fasting is interesting. Few Anglicans in Canada know of it and it appears to be a practice of a small minority. Of all of my seriously conscientious churchgoing friends, perhaps a tenth fast. I have run into curious surprise when I let on that I normally breakfasted after services than before-- on two occasions it led to interesting conversations but generally people nervously changed the topic. I got the feeling that they would have been more comfortable talking about sexual practices.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
|
Posted
I love threads of the everything-is-going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket variety. Harumph. Harumph.
About fasting before communion -- as a pre-Vatican II child, I recall the rule as involving one of the BIG R.C. mortal sins, at least as it was presented to us by the nuns. I mean, Jesus was really hurt (and angry) if you sipped even a single mouthful of juice or chewed some gum before receiving communion.
How quickly that rule disappeared in the early 60s. One day, you go to hell if you do it and are unfortunate enough to die before going to confession. The next day, it's never mentioned again.
PD wrote:
quote:
'Sit-stand-kneel' seems to have been replaced by 'sit-stand-slump' in my parish, and the worst offenders are not necessarily those of a certain age. It seems to be connected with a certain anti-tradition mindset some folks have.
Count me among the "sit-stand-slump" brigade -- though not due to laxity or a sinful wish for comfort. I'm perfectly happy to kneel as long s you want at the communion rail, or even on the floor. However, those pull-down kneelers force your body so close to the pew in front of you that you are obliged to assume an unnaturally upright position. "Slumping" allows you to bow your upper body and your head. For me, this is actually more what kneeling is meant to accomplish. Besides, slumping doesn't mess up the creases in your trousers.
--------------------
"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
I agree with Roybart about slumping-- with developing osteoarthritis, kneeling and genuflecting is no longer automatic and I make sure of a point of leverage so that I might avoid alarming worshippers by falling down in the aisle or tumbling down the chancel steps. Perhaps I sin by depriving them of amusement?
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
bib
Shipmate
# 13074
|
Posted
We always provide a glass of water each for the choir as it is important to keep well hydrated when singing a full Choral Eucharist or Choral Evensong. I am sure none of our lot fast before the 10.30 Choral Eucharist and can't really see what is the obligation to do this - I'm sure God doesn't require elaborate rituals of the church members, just sincerity, faithfulness and a willingness to treat others as we wish to be treated. Nowhere in the Bible have I found much of the strictness that is espoused by some Christians.
--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
I stopped kneeling when the people in front of me stopped, and I found if I knelt I had my face in their hair - not even an Anglican crouch to lean forward. (And the kneelers were removed)
And mobile phones in church - I used to check mine when my daughter was home alone sick and I was leaving her to attend the service.
Fasting in Lent is commonly mentioned and giving up things isn't unusual. I got fed up of being sabotaged by the people I worked with, deliberately, because they didn't approve. If I chose not to eat chocolate or whatever, I would have a long verbal attack about the stupidity of fasting and catholic traditions.
Fasting before communion is another one I do know about and did for years, but if you don't want me coughing throughout the service I need to take my asthma medication and something to drink to clear my mouth and throat afterwards.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
And don't get me started on loos. However did people manage years ago, with no basic facilities?
In my young days as a choirboy, there were a number of days when exiting by the vestry door there would be a man, or men, standing along the south wall of the church. Don't know how the women (i.e. the majority of the congregation) managed. But if people fasted before the service it would help if there were no toilets.
As for smartphones in the service &mdash: Some people are making notes on the sermon/notices on them. We used to get by with pen and paper.
(Says someone who reads the intercessions from a Kindle.)
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
The congregation at a catholic eucharist are not passive observers - they are active participants.
Sitting for prayers looks pretty passive to me.
And it is not just an occasion for individual prayer, but a corporate action.
Everybody actin differently doesn't look very corporate to me.
I've known a priest taking a weekday BCP Holy Communion to omit a few words from the invitation to confession to reflect the posture of those present. The words were those in brackets - "make your humble confession to Almighty God (meekly kneeling upon your knees)."
Perhaps priests using Eucharistic Prayer B should adapt it as "We thank you for counting us worthy to sit, kneel or whatever we find most comfortable in your presence and serve you."
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Pre-communion fasting went along with a tradition of early communion services. Generally the 11.00 service would be Mattins, or in some 'high' places a Sung Eucharist at which only a minority (generally the elderly and infirm) communicated. So it was no great hardship. More difficult would have been to get up half an hour earlier to have breakfast before the 8am.
Mama T makes some challenging comments, and I'm sure we could all toughen up. But in the UK at least a great number of churches are too cold for comfort for much of the year, and it's difficult to concentrate on prayer or relax in God's presence if you are trying to stop freezing.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I stopped kneeling when the people in front of me stopped, and I found if I knelt I had my face in their hair - not even an Anglican crouch to lean forward. (And the kneelers were removed)
I find that continuing to kneel, elbows in the person in front's shoulders, works well when wanting them to move.
Thurible
--------------------
"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
|
Posted
I can't kneel in the position required by most pews - not through discomfort (although there would be plenty of that) - but because my legs are likely to go into excruciating spasms that would render me totally incapable, and unable to get myself out of the position.
The thing that really upsets me about this is the thought that other people are looking at me and making judgements about why I am not kneeling, and assuming that I am not engaged with the service or concentrating on God.
Would you like me to wear a disabled badge? Because it's not always evident that there's anything wrong when I'm able to sit and stand normally.
--------------------
The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
|
Posted
Oh, were you in front of me, I wouldn't mind at all - as long as you moved forward slightly at the kneeling times so that I could kneel. (Or even explained beforehand that you weren't going to be able to move out of the way.)
Thurible
--------------------
"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
|
Posted
I would be leaning forward, so I wouldn't be causing you any trouble. If my behaviour genuinely impacts on anyone else I always take whatever steps are necessary to ameliorate the effects, whether by sitting somewhere where I am not in the way, or by explaining the situation.
There's not a lot I can do about those who watch and judge without any direct involvement though, since I don't really think they are entitled an explanation of my medical situation.
In fact, if my actions were dictated by any other non-medical factor I would feel the same way.
--------------------
The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trickydicky
Shipmate
# 16550
|
Posted
1) One of my congregation collapsed during my sermon (!) I went to visit her is casualty. The nurse in the hospital said that Sunday mornings could be quite busy with elderly people who had struggled to get to church and had missed breakfast.
2) In our church, during prayers, no-one 'slumps'. We merely adopt the Methodist Shampoo position. Hands on knees, head in hands, fingers running through hair...
But I agree with the OP. Jesus fasted. So should we. But it seems you can only fast if you are trying to lose weight or if you are trying to raise money for Oxfam.
--------------------
If something's worth doing, its worth doing badly. (G K Chesterton)
Posts: 57 | From: Greater Manchester | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Bishops and priests frequently request for a glass of water or something to be placed on the pulpit or credence and I've even it placed on the altar a couple of times.
That said, in my current climate, during the Wet Season (as you would know), to fail to rehydrate for an hour whilst wearing clericals, alb and chazzie would be to invite a rushed exit in an ambulance. That is so liturgically messy. I drink about a litre of water during a wet season mass, about a third of that in dry season.
--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trickydicky:
But I agree with the OP. Jesus fasted. So should we. But it seems you can only fast if you are trying to lose weight ...
That doesn't actually work, by the way.
--------------------
If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
Fasting before communion is normal enough, imo. I am not an expert, but afaik, the minimum is one hour, but for anyone with a medical condition the requirement is only 15 minutes.
Medicine is exempt from fasting requirements, as is food if the medicine is connected with a meal.
Water is never included in fasting; water can be taken at any time, including during a service if someone is struck with a fit of coughing or whatever. I always have water with me in any service, and I have no problem drinking it if I need to, either to suppress a cough or to prevent dissociation.
Fasting practices seem to be optional; we adopt them if we think there is spiritual benefit in doing so. The intention is to focus the attention on God. If the only result is that we obsess about cornflakes during every service, then there really is no point.
Ministers who have three services every Sunday morning can't be expected to survive all of that without breakfast, but for the average person there can be great benefits in adopting some difference in the daily routine on the day they are going to Mass, from that of any other day.
I think the important issue is spiritual benefit, and if there is any doubt about it, a person should check with their priest. There is always a danger with any religious practice, and moderation is sensible. One person's moderate will vary from another; a priest might help to work out a sensible balance.
[ 15. August 2013, 11:46: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
I'm sure there's something in the small print of the First Council of Nicaea about normally standing to pray.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Don't get me going or I'll be dragged to hell. Anglicans have forgotten their knees. It shows.
I knelt at my former church. Nobody kneels at my new church. Actually, the Vicar does. Nobody else.
It is really difficult to do the same as everyone else, and remain sitting down.
Sometimes if there are not many people and I am right at the back (which I normally am), I will kneel, as long as nobody notices. But usually I try to do what everyone else is doing.
Maybe there is a good proportion of every congregation who would kneel, if they saw someone else doing so. Who knows?
[ 15. August 2013, 11:53: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
|
Posted
Originally posted by Thurible (addressing drifting star): quote:
Oh, were you in front of me, I wouldn't mind at all - as long as you moved forward slightly at the kneeling times so that I could kneel.
That's the advantage of "slump." You don't sit upright. You lean forward, knees almost but not quite touching the kneeler, with torso and head at a more-or-less 45-degree angle. Weight is borne by the back of the upper leg.
This position should not offend even the most judgmental of fellow congregants. It is compatible with prayers that call for kneeling -- permitting you to look downward when introspective or upward when something is going on that requires attention. It does not inconvenience the more traditional kneeling person behind you -- the kind who wants to stick his or her head and hands over the back of your pew.
--------------------
"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
flags_fiend
Shipmate
# 12211
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Don't get me going or I'll be dragged to hell. Anglicans have forgotten their knees. It shows.
I knelt at my former church. Nobody kneels at my new church. Actually, the Vicar does. Nobody else.
It is really difficult to do the same as everyone else, and remain sitting down.
Sometimes if there are not many people and I am right at the back (which I normally am), I will kneel, as long as nobody notices. But usually I try to do what everyone else is doing.
Maybe there is a good proportion of every congregation who would kneel, if they saw someone else doing so. Who knows?
I usually kneel for the communion prayer etc. at my church, and other than the minister I am the only person that does so (out of a large congregation). I decided that my choosing to kneel was a matter between me and God and no-one else's business, so I would say if you want to kneel then you should do so and try not to worry about what other people think - they should have more important things to think about during communion anyway...
--------------------
"Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."
Posts: 238 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Have to say I'm a bit puzzled by this - if you feel it appropriate to kneel, then kneel. If not, then don't.
What does it matter how other people come before God?
But we are not talking about private devotion here - we are talking about taking part in a corporate action.
That's why I'd advocate standing. "We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you."
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Have to say I'm a bit puzzled by this - if you feel it appropriate to kneel, then kneel. If not, then don't.
What does it matter how other people come before God?
But we are not talking about private devotion here - we are talking about taking part in a corporate action.
That's why I'd advocate standing. "We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you."
Exactly! Kneeling is appropriate for personal prayer and individual acts of devotion such as penitence. Most eucharistic liturgy is neither. In any case, the design of much church seating doesn't allow for prolonged kneeling. It's not about 'comfort' in a superficial sense, but if you are being distracted by aching joints/moving chairs/other peoples' bodies, then kneeling is counter-productive.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
It's quite easy to kneel in the choir stalls as they have been built in a certain way to facilitate a sort of perched kneel (rather like monks). But I think if I was in the congregation and knelt down, I'd get stuck in that position and never be able to get up again! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
It's a good idea not to be made too comfortable in church, though, as half of us (at least) would probably fall asleep....
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
Water is never included in fasting;
Ministers who have three services every Sunday morning can't be expected to survive all of that without breakfast, but for the average person there can be great benefits in adopting some difference in the daily routine on the day they are going to Mass, from that of any other day.
Water used to be forbidden - Bishop Mervyn Stockwood's autobiography mentions fear of cleaning his teeth in case he swallows some water. (And muslims still don't drink water during Ramadan's daylight hours)
Priests weren't supposed to eat or drink until the last mass they'd celebrated (often the non-communicating high mass at 11, ending after noon) - we used to have an odd way of doing the ablutions so that they didn't include extra, unconsecrated wine or water - I think it was called 'bination.'
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Bishop Mervyn Stockwood's autobiography mentions fear of cleaning his teeth in case he swallows some water.
Wasn't that Harry Williams?
quote:
Priests weren't supposed to eat or drink until the last mass they'd celebrated (often the non-communicating high mass at 11, ending after noon) - we used to have an odd way of doing the ablutions so that they didn't include extra, unconsecrated wine or water - I think it was called 'bination.'
Does that mean 'tipping it in the bin'?
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Water used to be forbidden - Bishop Mervyn Stockwood's autobiography mentions fear of cleaning his teeth in case he swallows some water. (And muslims still don't drink water during Ramadan's daylight hours)
Priests weren't supposed to eat or drink until the last mass they'd celebrated (often the non-communicating high mass at 11, ending after noon) - we used to have an odd way of doing the ablutions so that they didn't include extra, unconsecrated wine or water - I think it was called 'bination.'
I remember the days when, at the church I went to as a student, Father would greet people at the church door after the 11a.m. High Mass while devouring a large bacon sandwich. Back then, fasting meant fasting.
On the other hand, at a church where I worked the 8a.m. service was a Low Mass, and employed a server of riper years who walked a mile to get to church. After the eighth or seventeenth time he had to retire to the vestry feeling faint, we invented an ancient tradition that his walk to church made him a pilgrim, and that pilgrims are excused fasting. After that, he used to arrive at church fully cornflaked and he and we were a lot happier.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
I cannot fast before Communion since I have to take medication in the morning with food. I cannot kneel for prayer or for Communion - for prayer because the pews in my church are too close together and it requires contortions I am not capable of, and for Communion because my church has a dais with no rail and I cannot balance while kneeling without a rail. However we are always told to kneel or stand in our church anyway.
I do fast during Lent, and just have breakfast and a small afternoon meal, and either cut down on meat or cut it out completely.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Have to say I'm a bit puzzled by this - if you feel it appropriate to kneel, then kneel. If not, then don't.
What does it matter how other people come before God?
St Augustine asked this question of the Blessed Ambrose, on behalf of his mother,who was confused about different fasting practices in different cities. The Blessed Ambrose answered, and I follow his answer, which has turned into a proverb of a kind; when in Rome, do as the Romans do.
The Blessed Ambrose actually spoke of Milan, but Rome will do just as well. He said if he knew of any better practice, he would follow it; this was the best answer he had to offer.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
