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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Secret Of The Universe
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Ingo seems to have collapsed under the weight of my brilliant questions.
"When anyone rose to the level of an error worth noticing, he would take the trouble to correct it"
(Adapted from C S Lewis's "Suprised by Joy")
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
can't speak for the rest of you pathetic losers, but God created me because there just wasn't sufficient Wiseass in the world.
and, apparently, to feed cats.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Back to 'why did God create us?'. Dunno.
I think the best answer to this that I have seen is the one given by God at the end of "Dogma".
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But why did God create us in the first place?
He was having a laugh.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But why did God create us in the first place?
Whimsy.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Boredom.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Because it's good to be alive.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Ingo seems to have collapsed under the weight of my brilliant questions.
I'm neither kind nor wise, and you certainly aren't clever. So silence seemed like a rather good option.
Your original assertion has been dealt with. Dislike does not change history. As for your feeble questioning, I did not talk about who is benefiting from creation's praise, it does not get much more existential that worms praising God by being worms, and Adam and Eve did not enjoy final beatitude. However, my answer was just a part/aspect of tradition, and trying to fill in the gaps while at the same time dealing with your confusion is like solving nuclear physics problems while playing hopscotch.
Concerning the question at hand, Marvin and comet both demonstrate better philosophical understanding by their comments than you do. That should be sufficiently embarrassing for you to curl up in some corner and sob uncontrollably.
Please do so in order to restore harmony to the universe.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Joanna--
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Back to 'why did God create us?'. Dunno.
I think the best answer to this that I have seen is the one given by God at the end of "Dogma".
Reminder of what that is, please? Long time since I saw it. Thanks.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
[qb] But why did God create us in the first place?
Love.
Trad answer (from Athanasios, when asked why did God create Satan) God loves everyone. You want to do good to people you love. It is better to exist than not to exist. Therefore God, being omnipotent, will create every sentient being that can possibly exist. Even sinners and Satan.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Concerning the question at hand, Marvin and comet both demonstrate better philosophical understanding by their comments than you do. That should be sufficiently embarrassing for you to curl up in some corner and sob uncontrollably.
I choose to take that as a compliment ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Love.
"The effusive nature of love" is one traditional answer, yes.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Trad answer (from Athanasios, when asked why did God create Satan) God loves everyone. You want to do good to people you love. It is better to exist than not to exist. Therefore God, being omnipotent, will create every sentient being that can possibly exist. Even sinners and Satan.
Since this answer is clearly complete bullshit, given that not all possible sentient beings exist even considered across all of time (*), I would like to see for myself what Athanasios actually wrote there. Reference?
(*) Even sticking just to human beings, there clearly can be infinitely many different possible ones (and more than aleph-zero-infinitely many as well). And then there are presumably infinitely many possible types of sentient beings. So to "exhaust" this, one would have to postulate the creation of some kind of multi-multiverse. That's nonsensical on available evidence, and it actually does not explain at all why we are facing Satan. After all, Satan could just exist in another of the infinitely-infinitely many universes.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
ken: Therefore God, being omnipotent, will create every sentient being that can possibly exist. Even sinners and Satan.
Being omnipotent means that He can create all of these, not that He will.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Concerning the question at hand, Marvin and comet both demonstrate better philosophical understanding by their comments than you do. That should be sufficiently embarrassing for you to curl up in some corner and sob uncontrollably.
I choose to take that as a compliment
Making people weep in despair is just one of the many services we provide around here.
We just give and give and give...
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Joanna--
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Back to 'why did God create us?'. Dunno.
I think the best answer to this that I have seen is the one given by God at the end of "Dogma".
Reminder of what that is, please? Long time since I saw it. Thanks.
Toward the end of this clip. (May not be work safe: Jay drops lots of F bombs. At God. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Concerning the question at hand, Marvin and comet both demonstrate better philosophical understanding by their comments than you do. That should be sufficiently embarrassing for you to curl up in some corner and sob uncontrollably.
I choose to take that as a compliment
Seems safe. I think he said you and comet had brains. The question of Evensong's brain appears to him to be (ehem) a bit of a no-brainer.
Mary Stuart Masterson put it well in "Some Kind of Wonderful"
quote:
You mess with the bull. You get the horns. Hear what I'm saying?
Mind you, she was shooting craps with cab-drivers at the time, so maybe it doesn't quite read across. But it seemed like quite a good fit ..
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Toward the end of this clip. (May not be work safe: Jay drops lots of F bombs. At God. )
FWIW, the entire movie is on YouTube as full HD here. Funny movie, the only weak bits are when they start ediorialising now and then. And I agree, the answer given is good.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think he said you and comet had brains.
It was a hierarchical triple insult backhanded compliment. Which gets ruined by having to explain it. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It was a hierarchical triple insult backhanded compliment.
Difficulty rating 2.4. Don't forget to eliminate the highest and lowest scores from the judges.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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koshatnik
Shipmate
# 11938
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
can't speak for the rest of you pathetic losers, but God created me because there just wasn't sufficient Wiseass in the world.
and, apparently, to feed cats.
Have you tried crossing water to throw them off the scent?
Posts: 467 | From: top of the pops to drawing the dole | Registered: Oct 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Funny movie, the only weak bits are when they start ediorialising now and then. And I agree, the answer given is good.
Wow, I have discovered a sentence you wrote, every single word of which I agree with.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It is a bit weird to be discussing this in hell, but there are two questions here. Why did God create us, and what is the meaning of life?
I would take them separately.
Thanks. I guess where I differ is that I take them to be the same thing.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Ingo seems to have collapsed under the weight of my brilliant questions.
I'm neither kind nor wise, and you certainly aren't clever. So silence seemed like a rather good option.
I am very clever, you just don't like my questions.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Your original assertion has been dealt with.
Where?
You gave me an answer (for the glory of God) and I pointed out the flaws in the reasoning and you stayed silent. I assumed you didn't pick up the gauntlet because you were unable to.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Dislike does not change history.
My dislike at your answer was based on its ultimately flawed reasoning; or rather it's insufficient reasoning rather than a subjective preference you seem to be implying. It did not go far enough to answer the basic question of Aristotle's final cause. (See? I'm learning something from Feser. ). I'm hoping Feser doesn't come up with the same answer you do. That would be disappointing.
Unless of course he explains what he means by "the glory of God" better than you do.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
As for your feeble questioning, I did not talk about who is benefiting from creation's praise, it does not get much more existential that worms praising God by being worms, and Adam and Eve did not enjoy final beatitude.
You're still missing the link between existence per se and for the glory of another (God).
As for Adam and Eve not being in communion with God initially (and us finally), I'm assuming you get this from some other obscure tradition rather than scripture because it certainly aint the faith of the scriptures.
I take it Adam and Eve were created imperfectly in your view then?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Because it's good to be alive.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
[qb] But why did God create us in the first place?
Love.
Trad answer (from Athanasios, when asked why did God create Satan) God loves everyone. You want to do good to people you love. It is better to exist than not to exist. Therefore God, being omnipotent, will create every sentient being that can possibly exist. Even sinners and Satan.
These two come closest to Best Answers Available IMV.
The only problem it comes up against is that some people's existence is just pure shit (through no obvious fault of their own) so it rather falls down on points of theodicy.
(not into the satan thing but in terms of better to exist than not exist - yes).
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think he said you and comet had brains.
It was a hierarchical triple insult backhanded compliment. Which gets ruined by having to explain it.
Very slow, IngoB. I didn't say how many or of what quality. You just lost a style point for falling off your high bar.
Nutmegged you I'm afraid. Proves you can't win them all. Look at that cute "Seems likely".
Heck I'm a Purg Host. Ambiguity 101 in play.
Do catch up. I'm sure the Martian and the Redhead got it straight away.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
As for Adam and Eve not being in communion with God initially (and us finally), I'm assuming you get this from some other obscure tradition rather than scripture because it certainly aint the faith of the scriptures.
If the Orthodox and Roman Catholic traditions are obscure to you, then you really need to get out of your little Protestant ghetto more.
quote:
I take it Adam and Eve were created imperfectly in your view then?
Not imperfect but incomplete. A caterpillar can be a perfect caterpillar, but it is not yet a butterfly.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
[QB][/QB]
Oh crapola. Really?
The better answer comes from Kurt Vonnegut, approximately thus for my purposes: "The triumph of everything is organization. Heaven is organized along the lines of the Mafia."
Which explains a lot.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Mary Stuart Masterson put it well in "Some Kind of Wonderful"
quote:
You mess with the bull. You get the horns. Hear what I'm saying?
Mind you, she was shooting craps with cab-drivers at the time, so maybe it doesn't quite read across. But it seemed like quite a good fit ..
I used to think those horns made a nice trophy, stuck up on the wall. Problem is, 'round here, the the bulls don't recognise you've taken their horns off.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
I'm feeling all generous so was ready to repair your code, NP, but I can't figure out what the fuck you were trying to do, there.
so unless you were making some profound statement that my Bingo-impressing massive, sexy brains somehow missed, your idiocy stands for the record. yay for you.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
I take it Adam and Eve were created imperfectly in your view then?
Not imperfect but incomplete. A caterpillar can be a perfect caterpillar, but it is not yet a butterfly.
Incomplete? How so?
God created Adam and Eve and saw that it was "Good".
If we're created incomplete we can hardly be blamed for our flaws then can we?
Shoddy workmanship.
OTOH that's fairly self-evident in scripture too. By about chapter 7 Genesis God is sorry that she made humankind because their nature was inclined always to evil and violence.
Hence the flood and a re-creation.
After that seems rather a compromise.
So what does the ghetto of your tradition say then?
[ 23. January 2014, 11:15: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I've been to Ghetto. Quite a nice-looking place these days, actually. But rather cramped.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I am very clever, you just don't like my questions.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Your original assertion has been dealt with.
Where?
- "X does not say something about A."
- "To the contrary, X does say something about A. Namely B."
- "But B is wrong because of random crap C filling my head."
- "Your original assertion has been answered."
- "Where?"
For 3 clever points, can you show the questioner where? Write down the sentence number.
For 5 clever points, discuss briefly (<100 words) whether it would make a difference if C was brilliant insight instead of random crap.
For 3 clever points, estimate the likelihood that C is brilliant insight given the question in 5.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You're still missing the link between existence per se and for the glory of another (God).
The only existent per se is God. When you worship God, who benefits?
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I take it Adam and Eve were created imperfectly in your view then?
Not at all. They were created naturally perfect, had the preternatural gifts of infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence and bodily immortality, and possessed the supernatural gift of sanctifying grace.
Yet the saints in heaven cannot sin, but Adam and Eve did. Try to understand why, and you will discover why I spoke of final beatitude, and what Adam and Eve were lacking.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think he said you and comet had brains. ... I'm sure the Martian and the Redhead got it straight away.
Are you in the habit of explaining things to people that they already understand, even if you are sure that they understand them?
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
my Bingo-impressing massive, sexy brains
I would love to get my hands on your huge hemispheres, to slowly and systematically scan their structure, probe their functional responses gently with some gradient echoes, and trace their diffusive properties to find those elusive connections to deeper, much deeper centres of spontaneous activity...
...but unfortunately the MR scanner is all booked this week.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
my Bingo-impressing massive, sexy brains
I would love to get my hands on your huge hemispheres, to slowly and systematically scan their structure, probe their functional responses gently with some gradient echoes, and trace their diffusive properties to find those elusive connections to deeper, much deeper centres of spontaneous activity...
*fans self* you silver-tongued cerebral freak, you!
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think he said you and comet had brains. ... I'm sure the Martian and the Redhead got it straight away.
Are you in the habit of explaining things to people that they already understand, even if you are sure that they understand them?
Only when it seems like a good opportunity to wind up your logical precision. Gently of course, in recognition of your Evensong squish. Nice move, that. But I do have my capricious moments. Need to relax from reading and writing mammoth posts in Purg.
Do carry on enticing the Redhead BTW. Now that looks likes a promising subtext ..
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Only when it seems like a good opportunity to wind up your logical precision. Gently of course, in recognition of your Evensong squish. Nice move, that.
I was squished was I?
Must've missed it.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I am very clever, you just don't like my questions.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Your original assertion has been dealt with.
Where?
- "X does not say something about A."
- "To the contrary, X does say something about A. Namely B."
- "But B is wrong because of random crap C filling my head."
- "Your original assertion has been answered."
- "Where?"
*looks around for B. Can't see it*
Must be a case of to be or not to be.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You're still missing the link between existence per se and for the glory of another (God).
The only existent per se is God.
According to who and whose axiom?
If humanity has no existence per se then God is vain (or somesuch like I referred to above) or of his/her nature not a giver but a taker (which is not what the biblical witness reports).
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
When you worship God, who benefits?
Me. So?
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I take it Adam and Eve were created imperfectly in your view then?
Not at all. They were created naturally perfect, had the preternatural gifts of infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence and bodily immortality, and possessed the supernatural gift of sanctifying grace.
Yet the saints in heaven cannot sin, but Adam and Eve did. Try to understand why, and you will discover why I spoke of final beatitude, and what Adam and Eve were lacking.
Final beatification sounds rather stultifying. No free-will eh?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
*looks around for B. Can't see it*
Must be a case of to be or not to be.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Sorry Evensong, 'twas pydseybare, not you. No link intended, not even a capricious one. Squished myself!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
*looks around for B. Can't see it*
Must be a case of to be or not to be.
Oh come on. That was effing brilliant.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Sorry Evensong, 'twas pydseybare, not you. No link intended, not even a capricious one. Squished myself!
You sure about that? You mentioned my name at least three times in a derogatory manner on the last page.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Don't be paranoid, just because he's criticised you on another page. I can disagree with some things you say (I'm sure I have quite a few times) yet agree with others. I found this quite profound. quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
When you worship God, who benefits?
Me. So?
Sometimes brevity is best.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Sorry Evensong, 'twas pydseybare, not you. No link intended, not even a capricious one. Squished myself!
You sure about that? You mentioned my name at least three times in a derogatory manner on the last page.
Yes. I simply conflated the pydseybare "worm squish" with the Evensong/Marvin/comet "brain" exchange. Quite liked the latter, BTW, but IngoB was having a comparative dig at all three of you. I didn't see that in the same light as the pydseybare worm exchange.
I begin to see why IngoB made the point about explaining these kinds of remarks! But that's what was going on. Honest injun. I need more practice in Hell.
So I'll get mai coat now ...
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
According to who and whose axiom?
According to the Christian belief that God is the Creator, and all else is creation. Or if you prefer, according to the metaphysical conclusion that there is only one Uncaused Cause.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If humanity has no existence per se then God is vain (or somesuch like I referred to above) or of his/her nature not a giver but a taker (which is not what the biblical witness reports).
Nothing exists necessarily but God. Everything else exists for a reason, namely God. "Vanity" is not a helpful label in this context.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
When you worship God, who benefits?
Me. So?
Precisely. So who benefits when you give glory to God?
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Final beatification sounds rather stultifying. No free-will eh?
Of course there is free will in heaven. What has changed is that the saints (and blessed angels) can see clearly what they want.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
According to who and whose axiom?
According to the Christian belief that God is the Creator, and all else is creation. Or if you prefer, according to the metaphysical conclusion that there is only one Uncaused Cause.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If humanity has no existence per se then God is vain (or somesuch like I referred to above) or of his/her nature not a giver but a taker (which is not what the biblical witness reports).
Nothing exists necessarily but God. Everything else exists for a reason, namely God. "Vanity" is not a helpful label in this context.
Ah. Interesting. I think we're getting hung up on semantics again.
I understand and agree with the Uncaused cause and that nothing exists necessarily but God but is that the same thing as asking Why? Isn't that more the How?
Are we talking at cross purposes here because you're assuming efficient cause rather than final cause?
For example: the beautiful rubber ball analogy of Feser's on pgs 62 - 63 in The Last Superstition. The efficient cause is the factory that made the ball. The final cause is the child's amusement.
What is our final cause? Amusement? Or you say the glory of God. But the why question is still begging. The next step still needs to be taken.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
When you worship God, who benefits?
Me. So?
Precisely. So who benefits when you give glory to God?
But actually you are hinting at final cause here aren't you? Glorifying God acts as a kind of feedback loop for humanity wot?
So I suppose the question that remains is exactly what benefit do we get when we glorify God? Self-transcendence?
But then I suppose one could start muttering to oneself about the initial need for self at all wot? Why did God create humanity and self when the point is to transcend it?
Enter stage left - Evensong's brain explodes.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Final beatification sounds rather stultifying. No free-will eh?
Of course there is free will in heaven. What has changed is that the saints (and blessed angels) can see clearly what they want.
Interesting idea. It implies Adam and Eve didn't know what they wanted. The text of Genesis tells us they knew what they wanted. They wanted to be wise like God.
Which still raises the question of why God didn't like the idea in the Garden but doesn't mind it in final beatification.....
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
oh shut the fuck up, both of you. get your heads out of your asses and go outside and interact with humans.
Jaysus. life is too short for this shit.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Reading this I firstly give thanks I don't have to, then I think "How the hell did this come into being?" Then I remember the threadstarter, but Holy Moly, we can't hold Frank responsible for some of the recent garbage.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Bored now.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
get your heads out of your asses and go outside and interact with humans.
I think Evensong is human. I could be wrong... Also, it was raining outside (NSFW?) and I ran out of people to interact with.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Bingo, have you been reading Timothy Leary?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Also, it was raining outside and I ran out of people to interact with.
wimp.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
oh shut the fuck up, both of you. get your heads out of your asses and go outside and interact with humans.
Jaysus. life is too short for this shit.
But comet, I'm a theologian. This shit is what I do for a living. It's what gets me out of bed in the morning.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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