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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Writers' Bleak
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Curly:
Anyone thinking about a "target audience" as they write?
mr curly
I am reworking my failed first novel as a script for a radio show that I might be a major character in. My book is aimed at automobile enthusiasts, aka 'gear-heads' from all nations that speak English. Age parameters could be ages nine to ninety. I might test-drive a passage with my older grammar school pupils or, wife and her boss permitting, secondary schoolboys. I tried it on nine-year-old boys and girls last term, but I could not get them to shut the hell up and answer questions about the passage: it involved a parade of exotic cars and famous custom cars, thinly disguised as I am not personally acquainted with Mr. Friedlinghaus or Mr. Roth or Mr. Barris!
I know it is an uphill battle!
The second book I shall write for NaNoWriMo as mentioned above. It shall won't be pure sci-fi, though it may be a bit dystopic and include vampires but not zombies. It is aimed at teenagers and young adults.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Nope. I write the kind of stuff I want to read.
Which is how Dorothy Dunnett got started, so it can't be a bad approach.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
I'm not familiar with her work. Would you please tell us more about her?
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
My target audience ideally would be "people like me." Except that, given my actual writing ability, it has to be "people like me, but with a higher boredom threshold."
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
Dorothy Dunnett's a wonderful author - I love all the swashbuckling (especially in the Lymond Chronicles) and the way she takes her characters right across Europe, and down as far as Timbuktu - I learned a huge amount about Cyprus, for instance, and the sugar trade just from one book. Her research was extremely detailed, and the way she interwove real history with her fictional characters was masterly!
Meanwhile, I was very pleased to be able to sit down for a few hours yesterday and get as far as a climactic duel with a dragon - I think it went rather well.
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
My target audience ideally would be "people like me." Except that, given my actual writing ability, it has to be "people like me, but with a higher boredom threshold."
Yes, that's it exactly! (for me too)
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The five Lymond novels are enormously fat and intimidating, Dunnett wrote a stand-alone novel about MacBeth which shows her strengths very well -- it's titled KING HEREAFTER.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I've started a separate thread on Dunnett, so if anyone wants to chat about her novels, feel free to wander over.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I have been put onto what might be an interesting writing opportunity.
At a rehearsal last night, the bass player was telling me about a friend of hers, who is one of the world’s top session musicians. He has played for James Brown, Tina Turner, Joe Cocker… aside from generally having had a very interesting life. He has repeatedly been asked why he doesn’t write a book about his experiences.
He kind of likes the idea but isn’t keen on writing it himself. Which means he’s looking for a ghost-writer. I’m not sure exactly how it would work/what the conditions would be, but I think I’m going to look into it. It's not at all the kind of thing I usually write, but it might be an interesting project.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
If you can, suggest an 'oral history' type of format. And if you are able to tape his reminiscences, that will be tons easier. (In fact consider video...)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
The textbook progresses. Page proofs arrived this morning, but will take 3 weeks of intense work to go through , as they run to 800 pages, much of which is mathematics and/or technical diagrams. But it's still encouraging! Printed book is due out in January.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I am on the downhill run for the World Science Fiction Convention over here in the Docklands (saw Gussie at a distance yesterday but could not beat through the scrum to speak to her). I have hopes that it will be well worth the time and trouble. I have cozened two publishers to look at at the manuscript for a time travel trilogy, and a third Australian press has expressed a desire to see the Victorian sensation novel. Your positive thoughts/prayers are solicited.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
Brenda Clough said:
quote:
I am on the downhill run for the World Science Fiction Convention over here in the Docklands (saw Gussie at a distance yesterday but could not beat through the scrum to speak to her).
Sounds like something out of a science fiction book as I thought was in Richmond yesterday. Probably you spotted my friend P. instead.
I need a kick up the backside to write something/anything before my writing class starts again in Spetember.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
No, I am confused, you are right!
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Looking forward to NaNoWriMo in about 9 or 10 weeks...
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Mr Curly
Off to Curly Flat
# 5518
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Looking forward to NaNoWriMo in about 9 or 10 weeks...
Good point. Will have to start planning what I'm going to attempt.
Who is is going to have a go?
mr curly
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My Blog - Writing, Film, Other Stuff
Posts: 2645 | From: Curly Flat | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
Good luck with the publishers, Brenda! I'm just back from WorldCon - I had such a brilliant time!
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
On the previous writer's thread, on 30 Jan 2013, I asked:
quote:
My son has been told that if he ever publishes a novel, he'll have to use a pen-name because his real name is too close to that of a Famous Author. Is this true? Is there a problem with real names when they're similar to famous names?
Firenze mused
quote:
I suppose the problem would be reader disappointment as they reached eagerly for book by Hilaire Mantel, only to find a sensitive evocation of teenage angst in Aberdeenshire instead of a hefty chunk of Tudor skulduggery.
I agreed:
quote:
I suspect someone wanting to read one of the Famous Author's warm and gently witty books might be dismayed to read about a bloodbath involving sword fights and mutant squirrels....
And Firenze concluded:
quote:
While at the same time confusing the actual seekers after squirrel ultraviolence. So best pick a name to alert them to a new kid on the block - Genghiz Nutkin?
Life being stranger than fiction, he did publish a book, but simply shortened his first name from Alexander to Alex. After all, he and the Famous Author were hardly likely to cross paths. But lo! Both the Famous Author (Alexander McCall Smith) and my son have been shortlisted for the same prize
I'd also posted earlier on that thread:
quote:
This is my most stress-free NaNo in years. I've spent the last three Novembers nagging my son to ignore NaNo, focus on his schoolwork, and go to bed before 3am. Not to mention the struggle to get him out of bed and onto the school bus after a NaNo all-nighter. Now he's at University, doing NaNo again, but what I can't see can't harm me. Bliss.
All that maternal effort to steer him away from writing books - wasted! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
North East Quine, that is just awesome!! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Thanks, jedijudy!
The Guardian has picked up on the similarity in names. Perhaps my Alexander should have listened to Firenze and called himself Genghiz Nutkin after all.
[ 28. August 2014, 12:26: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
I'm reading The Wonder Book by Jeff Van der Meer, a writing manual of sorts that was nominated for the Hugos this year. It's one of the best books about writing that I've read, and that includes Stephen King's On Writing. I've been taking notes, and improving the story I'm writing at the moment.
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Cover me, I'm going in! Sent manuscripts to three different editors, at three different publishing houses. Crossing all my fingers, and soliciting good wishes from everybody!
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I am down in the dumps. No one wants my novel. The latest round haven’t even have the courtesy to reply and tell me to bugger off. This trying to get published thing was fun when I started. Bored now.
Nobody loves me, everybody hates me, I’m going to go and eat worms.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I have a friend, she has written a magnificent novel. It is not only me who thinks that it is the whole of the writers group we go to. There are several good novels written by members of the group, but this is at least a level higher. However, she is struggling to get it published, possibly because it does not fit a standard genre.
In other words getting published sucks as task to be done until you succeed and this is not a reflection on the quality of your written material.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Thanks, jedijudy!
The Guardian has picked up on the similarity in names. Perhaps my Alexander should have listened to Firenze and called himself Genghiz Nutkin after all.
I had a long email exchange with Another Author who shares my surname, trying to work out whether or not we were related: our shared name is distinct and unusual, so it wasn't a bad guess.
If we are related, we can't work out how. Neither are we likely to be confused with each other, as our books appear on very different shelves.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mr Curly
Off to Curly Flat
# 5518
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
In other words getting published sucks as task to be done until you succeed and this is not a reflection on the quality of your written material.
Jengie
Self-publish it. Get it out there.
Self-published ebooks are the new query letter.
mr curly
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My Blog - Writing, Film, Other Stuff
Posts: 2645 | From: Curly Flat | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
There is a large can of worms we could open about self pub and how to do it. But, in summary, I will say that when you SB you are stepping into a professional arena. Therefore, be professional. Have that work in professional shape; have a decent cover with good cover design; get all your rights and permissions issues in a row.
When you SB you essentially take on all the tasks that Harper & Row or Random House will do. Plan to do them.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Sounds scary! My wife is a published author, but not a novelist. She did reviews of several young adult books for an academic journal run by one of her professors when she was in grad school two years ago. She would like to do NaNoWriMo sometime, but not this year as she is too busy teaching English language and literature to thirteen-year-olds at a local school. I plan to start research tomorrow or Friday to see if I can find out enough about Mars to make the last part of my planned novel make sense. I have most characters established and some scenes plotted...
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
You are wrestling with a different bear. Writing it is a separate and previous issue, bristling with its own toothy difficulties.
If you want to think about SP, google on it -- there are mountains of tips and websites full of advice.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'd read your novel La Vie en Rouge ...
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
It is tricky, though. I recently read a very good first novel which isn't self-published but e-published but which the author tells me isn't selling very well at the moment ... these things are an uphill struggle ...
But worth doing for all that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Getting traditionally published is a hard, difficult and discouraging process. It doesn't always pay off, but when it does, it can be wonderful. Self-publishing can be good too but it's quite a different thing and for most people it does not provide a stepping-stone to traditional publishing -- it's going off in another direction on a different path. Think about your goals and what you want for your writing, and if what you really want is to find a traditional publisher, then persevere, persevere, persevere. And yeah, take breaks every so often to whine about how it sucks, because it really, really does.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Many of my friends are authors, (mostly in women's fiction covering suspense/crime/romance/historical stuff/contemporary women's stories) traditionally published and a few are hybrid authors, having sold books through traditional publishers and then self-published via e-books.
My personal observations (which others may obviously disagree with or may have different observations, particularly in different genres) is that unless your self-published book/s sells well then it/they can be a liability in trying to sell a book to a trad. publisher.
Without a marketing platform, selling your self-published stuff can be exceedingly difficult.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
That is an important point. If you self-publish a work, then it is published. A traditional publisher is unlikely to pick it up (unless it is a monster best-seller, or unless you become famous in some other way. I suggest sleeping with a member of the Royal Family and then Telling All if you want to pursue this avenue.)
If you look at a publishing contract, it will say what rights the traditional publisher is purchasing. Usually it is First World Rights, or First American Rights, or First English Language Rights -- something like that. The key word here is 'first'. They're paying for the first skim off the milk pan, for the first slice of the cake. They are, as it were, paying for the work's virginity -- elsewhere on SoF is a thread on this very subject. If you use the First Rights in self publishing, they are not available to sell to someone else. You may only sell Second Rights.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Good point Brenda, I was assuming that people were trying to sell subsequent books to traditional publishers, not reselling an existing publication. Just as if your first book/s don't sell well, publishers won't buy anymore, if your self-published books don't sell then publishers won't be rushing to buy a new work.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
NEQ: quote:
The Guardian has picked up on the similarity in names. Perhaps my Alexander should have listened to Firenze and called himself Genghiz Nutkin after all.
Wow! Congratulations to the North East Loon. I've been looking out for his book in the local Waterstones, but maybe I should just order it from Amazon.
Fingers crossed for him...
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) for la vie en rouge. Other Half has been trying to sell his work for years. Hang in there. Would it help to think of the process as a job search?
[ 11. September 2014, 12:59: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Alas, La Vie. If it is any help to you, we have all been there. Rare indeed is the writer who can sell every work she ever pens. (And if she can, sometimes she is unwise to do it; there are works better left in the trunk.)
It helps to think of writing as one of all the other fine arts: ballet, playing the bassoon, painting on gesso, acting on stage. The US Department of Labor produces many statistical tables, and one of them is All Professions By Income. At the very tip-top of this table is captains of industry and CEOs -- Bill Gates, the chairman of General Motors, that kind of person. At the absolute bottom is migrant farm workers who pick lettuce. And do you know who is next up the list, from the migrant farm workers? Yes, it is freelance writers.
Or, consider the Screen Actors Guild. This is the movie actors' union; all actors who speak a line on the screen are members. (Everyone who is just standing in the crowd is an extra.) If you look at, say, Angelina Jolie or Harrison Ford, they are doing very well indeed. You say, I would like to be like Harrison Ford, rich enough to own millions of acres in Wyoming! But then you can go and look at the SAG member; their average income is $5000 a year. This qualifies you for welfare. And this number averages in Angelina Jolie and Harrison Ford, so the lowliest actor is making way, way less than that.
So: writing is like that. You had better be doing it for love, because you're unlikely to ever get money for it.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
You need damn good marketing IMHO to sell books, especially fiction. And unless you are very savvy indeed and have lots of time on your hands, your best bet is a traditional publisher who will do it (mostly) for you.
But that means getting in the door--which means either good luck or marketing. Which means probably finding an agent, who will do the footwork for you. Maybe that's where you need to be starting? Good agents have contacts and know who is looking for what. Plus publishers know that anything coming from an agent is likely to be a cut above the slush pile stuff, as an agent won't take on anything s/he doesn't think s/he can sell.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
That's the reason why I'm trying to place this trilogy with a traditional publisher. Even though I have a powerful ebook outlet to hand (www.bookviewcafe.com) I have what could be a best-seller on my hands here, and to leverage this I need all the resources of a large publishing house.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Just to reiterate. Most authors I know would rather die (literally, rather die) than promote their book in anything but a self-deprecating, stare-at-their-own-shoes sort of way.
If you're one of those people, go ahead and self-publish, but don't expect stellar results.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Mmm. This depends upon your genre. For certain areas of literature (romance novels is the best example) there is a ready-made channel of fans, supporters and buyers. Science fiction and fantasy also have a powerful fandom. A bit of promotion is easier in these cases, because there's already a structure, a place to go.
Where you're really in trouble is if you've written a straight literary novel. No built-in fan base to tap.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Well, yes and no. Most of the writers I know are SF and F writers, and a goodly proportion of them would rather pluck their eyes out than try and get someone to buy their book.
Of course, adding alcohol turns us all into witty raconteurs who could sell bridges to unsuspecting Americans...
But broadly speaking, being able to write a good book, and being able to sell that good book, are two entirely different skill sets.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Oh, for sure. And being able to write a good book is no guarantee of being able to read one's work out loud in any passable way. (JRR Tolkien was famously poor at this.)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Oh dear Lord yes.
I can do it passably. At least, I thought I could do it passably, and then the audio book of Equations of Life came out, voiced by a proper actor...
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
I've had two books traditionally published by a small publisher but the experience has been such a let-down that I've gone ahead and self-published my third. My experience of self-publishing (via Amazon) has been that it's a better deal for me than the trad-pub situation.
My publisher did not do any promotion, nor did it go to great lengths for cover art, and there were so many other frustrations that, apart from the knowledge that someone had liked my work enough to publish it, I'm convinced self-publishing is the better way for me.
So far my self-published novel has made more money in Kindle sales than the previous two novels put together, and yes, I am one of those shy writers who hates self-promotion and has no idea how to go about marketing her books. All I know is that my publishers did less than I do!
I know of one writer who had been very sceptical of self-publishing but who on having the rights to his earlier (very poor selling) books returned to him, put out one of them on Amazon under a new title and has now, in just two months, sold 1,500 Kindle copies. Yes he had kept the price low, but even so, that's good going.
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
Cracked the "champagne" * tonight to celebrate the end of 4 weeks of intensive proof-reading.
Since the book in question is a university -level science textbook of ~800 pages with lots of maths and diagrams, the task was indeed a big one - the more so as the publisher mislaid some key supporting documents, resulting in several hundred more corrections to the maths than should have been necessary. TITH! But they did apologise and allocate us an extra week for proof-reading !
All that remains now is for my co-author on the far side of the world to deliver the marked-up proof set to the publisher, after which it should be clear sailing to what we hope will be big sales in the new year.
* Actually it was Australian "methode tradionelle" sparkling, but very welcome nevertheless.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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