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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Tophet. Is this what Jesus wants?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I was cumulatively very disturbed at church yesterday.
During the otherwise excellent liturgy on the vineyard, with minimal comment, the vicar had a powerpoint flash up on the screen saying that he had received a message from a missionary friend in Iraq in IS territory saying that IS were going to Christian homes and commanding all the children to convert to Islam. Those that did not they killed. None apostasized. All were killed. But none of their parents.
If that wasn't bad enough upon bad enough upon bad enough even as unattributed hearsay, what the missionary continued with was yet worse: basically what a great job the parents had done that their children were prepared to be martyred and that the missionary, although terrified, only hoped he could follow their example.
Any one else heard this?
If it's true, why isn't the BBC reporting it or any other source?
And assuming it's true, as these feckless demoniacally evil perverts (... go I) are quite capable of doing this, is the theology true? Does Jesus want us to absolutely passively sacrifice our children to Him? Intrusive thoughts in the former of my raving inner Tourette's says 'NO!' and more besides.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I never understood this thing about apostasy. If someone would put a gun to my head, I'd convert to whatever they want. The same for my hypothetical children.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I never understood this thing about apostasy. If someone would put a gun to my head, I'd convert to whatever they want. The same for my hypothetical children.
In the case of IS, as they claim to represent the only legitimate Islamic caliphate, conversion to Islam also means pledging allegiance to their group and its leader.
I would certainly rather die than be forced into conversion and presumably sold off as a sex slave or wife to one of these lunatics. You can be certain those are the only futures for these children - the boys will be brainwashed into committing acts of violence themselves.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: In the case of IS, as they claim to represent the only legitimate Islamic caliphate, conversion to Islam also means pledging allegiance to their group and its leader.
I would certainly rather die than be forced into conversion and presumably sold off as a sex slave or wife to one of these lunatics. You can be certain those are the only futures for these children - the boys will be brainwashed into committing acts of violence themselves.
Okay, the goalposts have moved a bit here. Being sold off as a sex slave is a different thing. I guess one has to decide for themselves if one prefers death over that. But with a gun to my head, I'd readily pledge allegiance to whomever they want.
And yes, I'd prefer my hypothetical children brainwashed and committing acts of violence rather than them being dead.
[ 06. October 2014, 14:03: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And, in that culture, what a grand and superb way to create enemies for yourself, for life. Even here in the first world -- you don't even have to kill my children. Threaten them with sufficient credibility, and I will work against you: quietly, legally, politely, but with unrelenting venom.
No, if you are going to kill all the children, you should axe the parents as well. And all their relatives. Probably just nuke the entire region. And at this point you can see why this is a strategy that cannot go on long.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I feel suspicious of this story. I would prefer to see it confirmed by a reputable news agency; it smacks too much of propaganda.
And yes, I would convert to Islam, with a gun to my head.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Okay, the goalposts have moved a bit here. Being sold off as a sex slave is a different thing. I guess one has to decide for themselves if one prefers death over that. But with a gun to my head, I'd readily pledge allegiance to whomever they want.
I didn't mean to move the goalposts, but the fact is that if someone is telling you to convert or face death with a gun to your head, it's unlikely whatever they are asking you to convert to is going to be the laid-back, open-minded version of that religion.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
But the question is not only: would you convert with a gun to your head, or your child's head? The question implied is: were these people wrong not to do so?
Of course there may be question marks over the veracity of this particular story. But I bet something like this is happening somewhere. And I'm sure that something like this has happened somewhere, sometime, probably many times, with many religions and nationalities playing the different roles.
It seems bizarre for us to judge the victims here. I guess those early Christian martyrs were likewise misguided idiots, then.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: I didn't mean to move the goalposts, but the fact is that if someone is telling you to convert or face death with a gun to your head, it's unlikely whatever they are asking you to convert to is going to be the laid-back, open-minded version of that religion.
That is undoubtedly true. Still, for this discussion — which is fortunately a very theoretical exercise for us — it makes sense to separate the theological aspects of apostasy (which I take Martin's post to be about) from the practical consequences.
I've had a gun pointed at my head more often than I care for. It's a very disturbing experience; you never get used to it. What I do in this situation is: agree with whatever they want. I guess this is the reason why I'm sitting here right now, typing this post.
The same for my hypothetical children: my first objective would be to keep them alive. Maybe it's parental egoism, whatever. But that would be my priority. The rest comes later.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
TurquoiseTastic: The question implied is: were these people wrong not to do so?
Right or wrong, I'm not the one to judge that. The parents aren't responsible for the deaths of their children, the ones who killed them are. The only thing I'm saying is that I'd have acted differently.
quote:
TurquoiseTastic: I guess those early Christian martyrs were likewise misguided idiots, then.
Yes. I never understood the martyr veneration in some parts of the church. It's a big heap of baloney to me.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Yes. I never understood the martyr veneration in some parts of the church. It's a big heap of baloney to me.
You've never understood it, in a religion founded by a man who died for His beliefs? Incredible.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
I suspect that part of the reason for using these kinds of stories is to create and/or maintain obedience. It might be to the church or to a priest, vicar, pastor, etc. I my days in evo circles it was very common.
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: You've never understood it, in a religion founded by a man who died for His beliefs? Incredible.
That wasn't about a choice to convert or die, it was more complicated than that.
When I was in my late teens, I was involved in some kind of Pentecostal house group. This had more to do with a certain brown-eyed girl in this group than with much enthousiasm for Pentecostalism from my side, but there you go.
I remember that they made a big deal of this kind of martyrdom. They often spoke about it: "If you were in the Colosseum and they'd force you to renounce Jesus or be thrown to the lions, what would you do?" They'd draw all kinds of conclusions from this about where your priorities would lie etc. And the martyrs who chose not to apostate were the really brave Christians.
I find this bullshit. It has more to do with the excitement of imagining ourselves being heroes in a situation we'll probably never face, than that it has any real theological value.
Once again, put a gun to my head and I'll convert to fucking Cthulhu.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I suspect that part of the reason for using these kinds of stories is to create and/or maintain obedience. It might be to the church or to a priest, vicar, pastor, etc. I my days in evo circles it was very common.
Yes, it has that kind of hysterical tinge to it, a kind of excitement over violence, which is quite weird.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I never understood this thing about apostasy. If someone would put a gun to my head, I'd convert to whatever they want. T
So would I!
They can't change what is in your heart.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
That wasn't about a choice to convert or die, it was more complicated than that.
Sure, but a good part of it was "Toe the institutional religious line and stop all this 'King of the Jews' nonsense and this will all go away."
To address the theological points, we know from Peter that apostasy can be forgiven with repentance.
So what happens if at gun point you convert away from or renounce Christianity - and they kill you on the spot anyway? I haven't come across any strand of Christianity that wouldn't think you'd be in a bit of trouble on the other side as a result.
Or let's say you just say you're converting. But then they force you to do all sorts of sinful and evil things. Can you maintain a relationship with Christ under such circumstances?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: Sure, but a good part of it was "Toe the institutional religious line and stop all this 'King of the Jews' nonsense and this will all go away."
He didn't call Himself 'King of the Jews'. To me, the choice Jesus was faced with was either die or abandon the people He cared for: the lepers, the widows, the powerless ... When other people are involved, the equation changes.
quote:
seekingsister: So what happens if at gun point you convert away from or renounce Christianity - and they kill you on the spot anyway? I haven't come across any strand of Christianity that wouldn't think you'd be in a bit of trouble on the other side as a result.
My strand of Christianity would be an example. If God is such that He'd give me trouble over this one, then this isn't a God I'd want to risk my life for.
quote:
seekingsister: Or let's say you just say you're converting. But then they force you to do all sorts of sinful and evil things. Can you maintain a relationship with Christ under such circumstances?
This is a harder question. It depends on what you mean by 'sinful' of course. If they force me to say all kinds of things about Jesus or participate in non-Christian rituals, I don't care about that.
But suppose they force me to kill someone. I don't pretend to know what I'd do in such a case. I like to believe that I'd prefer to die. But there's no way to be sure unless it really happens (and I hope it never will). This would certainly have an effect on my spirituality. But we've already moved away from the question of apostasy here.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
It seems to me that the verb "to convert" would require some clarification here. If I had a gun put to my head I might indeed testify loudly “La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammad rasoolu Allah.” Or maybe not. However, while this may be the official act of becoming a Muslim, saying this does not necessarily indicate my interior conversion. For example, I just said this out loud in my office, on my own. I meant nothing by it, but for being curious how it actually sounded. I don't think that I have suddenly turned Muslim now, as if by magic.
Classical martyrdom is not really about whether you actually convert, in your heart, mind and spirt. It is about the question whether you can be forced to make a public sign of conversion, however false it may be. Basically, do you value your life more or less than showing your allegiance to your faith? Are you prepared to die not only for remaining in your faith, which nobody can stop you from doing, but also for making this visible to the world? Will you deny the Lord before others in fear of your life, like St Peter did at first, or will you be martyred for your unbending public loyalty, like St Peter did later on?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I feel suspicious of this story. I would prefer to see it confirmed by a reputable news agency; it smacks too much of propaganda.
And yes, I would convert to Islam, with a gun to my head.
Snopes deems it undetermined [Extremely graphic link: http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/isis .asp, delete space to make link work] (warning: disturbing images). It would have been better had the speaker framed the stories a bit to reflect that, but there seems to be enough possibility that it's worth raising as a point of prayer.
In terms of martyrdom, I think it's impossible to say what any of us would do under such circumstances. And even what is the "right" thing to do. But I do see the whole story, indeterminate as it may be, as a reminder to pray for the persecuted church-- as well as people around the world who are suffering war and violence in other ways.
[Link broken by host to make doubly sure nobody clicks on it inadvertently]
[ 06. October 2014, 16:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
This is like the shotgun wedding. Are vows, taken with a gun to your head, valid? Surely any clergyman would refuse to preside over a ceremony with the bride held at gunpoint.
It is not very difficult to believe that God is at least as smart as that.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I suspect that part of the reason for using these kinds of stories is to create and/or maintain obedience. It might be to the church or to a priest, vicar, pastor, etc. I my days in evo circles it was very common.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Sorry - how did that happen - 2 gins with pink tonic probably
What I MEANT to say was ...
With all due respect He was not a mother nor even a parent. And THAT is all the difference.
Signed, Mother of Three
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Galilit: With all due respect He was not a mother nor even a parent. And THAT is all the difference.
I agree. And it makes for an interesting hypothetical situation.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
Like many others here, I'd pledge allegiance to any wacko deity a nut with a gun cared to name, and keep up the pretense until I could get the drop on 'em or escape.
But then, I've always thought that Simon Peter did nothing wrong in the gospel story. No innocents were harmed by his actions. Getting himself martyred would've achieved nothing.
Give my situation ethics and pragmatism over noble yet futile gestures, any day.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Byron: But then, I've always thought that Simon Peter did nothing wrong in the gospel story. No innocents were harmed by his actions. Getting himself martyred would've achieved nothing.
Interesting, I hadn't thought of this. Yes, I agree.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Bunch of random thoughts here. Also, y'all need someone to shoot at, so I'm offering myself up as a target. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
1. I really, really hope this is a bullshit propaganda story, because I don't want to think anybody including ISIS would be so evil. Though I know such things have happened. But hopefully not now.
2. If it IS bullshit, some liar has some serious repenting to do.
3. What would I do? God only knows. The only time I had a knife pulled on me with a "renounce Christ" demand, it was by a rather wacko friend and I couldn't really take seriously that he would knife me in front of City Hall. So my reaction then (which was basically to say "no" and gibber) is worth crap all.
4. I hope I WOULD refuse. I hope my son would refuse.
5. I would never look down on anybody that did convert under such pressure.
6. Now, why 4? because along with most of the world, I suspect, I don't believe you can make a clean separation between what you really believe in your heart and what you say or do on the outside. To a certain extent, maybe, particularly under duress. But there is a reason why terrorists try to force conversions or denunciations, and that is because it creates a mental/spiritual break in the person thus forced. It does real damage.
I'm guessing a lot of you won't agree with me. I live in a culture where at least half the people I work with see nothing wrong about oath-breaking, after all--to them, you do the expedient thing, and if that means breaking your word or signing your name to a lie, you do it. And if you tell them you CAN'T do it, they look at you all squiggle-eyed. "It's only a piece of paper," they say. And I don't know how to communicate to them that it's not "only a piece of paper," it's my name, it's my freaking self.
Historically most human cultures have considered oath-breaking, loyalty-breaking, to be one of the worst of sins. And that was judged not on inner convictions but on outer witnessed actions. Apostasy is at the very least a case of loyalty breaking, and for many of us a case of oath-breaking as well (baptismal vows, anyone? confirmation?)
Right now I'm raising a 13 year old, and I have to choose which culture to follow. Should I follow my old boss's culture ("It's only words," he says. "Everybody plays the game. Just sign your name, it doesn't mean anything.") or the historic majority view, where being foresworn IS a freakin' big deal, and to let down a friend (let alone a lord) is definitely to do something wrong?
I'm raising him in the old style. Don't say it if you don't intend to do it. Don't sign it if you don't agree with it. And if you do break under pressure, seek forgiveness and healing immediately. Because it matters, and the damage done to the self is real damage, regardless of whether someone else forced you to it or not.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Lamb Chopped: I live in a culture where at least half the people I work with see nothing wrong about oath-breaking, after all
I respect that. But I wonder what an 'oath' is worth if it's made with a knife at your throat.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I was cumulatively very disturbed at church yesterday.
During the otherwise excellent liturgy on the vineyard, with minimal comment, the vicar had a powerpoint flash up on the screen saying that he had received a message from a missionary friend in Iraq in IS territory saying that IS were going to Christian homes and commanding all the children to convert to Islam. Those that did not they killed. None apostasized. All were killed. But none of their parents.
If that wasn't bad enough upon bad enough upon bad enough even as unattributed hearsay, what the missionary continued with was yet worse: basically what a great job the parents had done that their children were prepared to be martyred and that the missionary, although terrified, only hoped he could follow their example.
Any one else heard this?
If it's true, why isn't the BBC reporting it or any other source?
And assuming it's true, as these feckless demoniacally evil perverts (... go I) are quite capable of doing this, is the theology true? Does Jesus want us to absolutely passively sacrifice our children to Him? Intrusive thoughts in the former of my raving inner Tourette's says 'NO!' and more besides.
Our meeting for worship sent it out as an urgent prayer request, then retracted it because: they made contact with American Quaker missionaries (who they know irl) who had spoken with refugees from Qaraquosh at Ankawa, and also with the Chaldean bishop of Mosul, who had religious oversight of Qaraquosh. They said this event definitely did not happen. It is also not true that the UN evacuated its staff from Erbil at the time (which was in the message circulated to us.).
Basically, its not being covered by the BBC because its bollocks, evil, designed to worsen an already atrocious situation.
[ 06. October 2014, 18:53: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Lamb Chopped: I live in a culture where at least half the people I work with see nothing wrong about oath-breaking, after all
I respect that. But I wonder what an 'oath' is worth if it's made with a knife at your throat.
Didn't mean that. I was referring to the previous oath (baptismal vows etc) that would be getting damaged. Not irreparably, but still.
[ 06. October 2014, 18:55: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Lamb Chopped: Didn't mean that. I was referring to the previous oath (baptismal vows etc) that would be getting damaged. Not irreparably, but still.
I guess we have a difference of views about the validity of words that are said with a knife at your throat. To me, these words have no validity at all. I agree that a person should be truthful and stick to his/her word. But a condition for this is that these words are spoken in freedom. Whatever I say under force is just pretense. Hence, in my view the baptismal vows (or in my case the vows of my Public Confession) aren't damaged at all.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
I think praising them for their martyrdom is easy to do when living in the UK in 2014. We have no idea.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Does anyone care that event in the OP didn't happen ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Certainly. That's what point 1 and 2 were about in my first post.
It's just that no matter how bogus the kickoff event for a thread is, you can't get Shippies to shut up. Like me. Sorry!
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Does anyone care that event in the OP didn't happen ?
I immediately suspected it. I have heard tons of stuff like this over the years, often involving horrific violence, and rather hysterically or melodramatically phrased, and couched in a sort of martyred way. Usually bullshit, and quite tacky.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Does anyone care that event in the OP didn't happen ?
I think it happened.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Does anyone care that event in the OP didn't happen ?
I think it happened.
Did you read the evidence I cited ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Does anyone care that event in the OP didn't happen ?
Give it time. It probably just hasn't occurred to ISIS yet. It will I'm sure.
Then we can all get some nice RAF planes to drop a few more useless bombs and when people point out they are useless we can start bleating about possible 'mission creep'.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Thanks Doublethink. They've done worse before. So did Musharraf. But that's not the point. It's the armchair revelling in martyrdom, Munchhausen's by proxy style. That this is what Jesus would be offended by if we DIDN'T.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Does anyone care that event in the OP didn't happen ?
I think it happened.
Did you read the evidence I cited ?
To be fair, what we have on both sides at this point is anecdotal. I think my Snopes link above comes closer when it simply says "undetermined." At this point we don't know.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I never understood this thing about apostasy. If someone would put a gun to my head, I'd convert to whatever they want. The same for my hypothetical children.
I'm with Seeking Sister on this one. I would encourage my daughters to refuse to convert , better dead than the sex/domestic slave of some thug.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Evangeline: I'm with Seeking Sister on this one. I would encourage my daughters to refuse to convert , better dead than the sex/domestic slave of some thug.
Interesting, the different views of this. I'm also thinking about the times of slavery, either in the US or here in Brazil. Slaves had children. I'm not sure if many of them killed them to spare them their fate. I guess some of them have, I don't know. But many didn't. (I'm not making some kind of judgement here at the moment.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Children born of rape is a very tricky one.
Ask the women of Pakistan, or what used to be Yugoslavia, or anywhere (or any-when) there has been a war and men/soldiers.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Interesting, the different views of this. I'm also thinking about the times of slavery, either in the US or here in Brazil. Slaves had children. I'm not sure if many of them killed them to spare them their fate. I guess some of them have, I don't know. But many didn't. (I'm not making some kind of judgement here at the moment.)
Killing your own children is a huge leap from thinking that if your children faced a death or conversion-to-a-crazy-violent-sect choice, that death would be a preferable outcome.
These stories of young Yazidi women kidnapped by ISIS show what happens in such a situation. When they refused to convert, ISIS tried to starve the baby by not bringing milk. When they did "convert", they got selected off to be wives/concubines to local men, who beat and starved them.
In their own words
quote:
“We would try to make ourselves look ugly. Some women would cry or scream or fight, but it made no difference. They were always taken anyway,” Sara said. “One girl hung herself. Another tried, but the ISIS guards stopped her and beat her very badly. No one else tried after that.”
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I never understood this thing about apostasy. If someone would put a gun to my head, I'd convert to whatever they want. T
So would I!
They can't change what is in your heart.
Sure they can, if they can be bothered. I find 1984 (not my favourite book) convincing on this.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
ISIS will burn itself out (in a lot of blood) unless it is sponsored by people on other countries - Saudi etc - to advance various political goals.
Pol Pot was allowed to recycle plastic shopping bags, and Gods Army in Uganda was allowed to kidnap and train child soldiers for decades with very little international effort beyond hand wringing and no military intervention.
The main differences here are that it's closer to home and there is oil and everyone is worried about middle eastern stability. Meanwhile, ISIS is achieving one of its primary goals in that the US and UK are seen to be interventionist (but ineffective and cowardly) in the middle east.
I sometimes wonder if arms dealers deliberately pour a little more petrol on the flames in the middle east just to keep up a steady trade. And how much the cold war (or something similar) is still being fought by proxy. The whole iran-iraq-afghanistan business can be traced back to empire biilding, oil and cold war politics. Has anything changed?
takes off cynical hat, carries on with the day
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
To be fair, what we have on both sides at this point is anecdotal.
I'm more inclined to believe claims made by people who are actually in the areas concerned, especially where no reputable news sources have mentioned it at all.
My greatest interest is in why people are so determined to believe that shit like this is happening. Is it the vicarious pride of hearing that some other Christians are so dedicated to their faith that they'd rather die than renounce it? Is it the extra validation such claims give to their "muslims are evil monsters" prejudice? Is it the fact that having a set of evil monsters as external enemies creates far greater group cohesion within their communities, even if said monsters aren't real? Is it the fact that the sort of visceral hatred engendered by stories and images such as these stimulates the same parts of the brain as cocaine, giving the hater what could be described as a "high"?
Is it a combination of all of the above?
For the leaders who are making these claims, it's easier to understand - they can preach about how brave these martyrs are, and how their flocks should take inspiration from them and never ever question or doubt their teachings no matter what challenges come. I can almost hear the "if you change your mind on [insert controversial teaching here] then you're betraying their noble sacrifice" sermon already...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Good post, Marvin. I see a lot of having cake and eating it here - that is one gets to relish a lurid story of gore and horror, while at the same time, condemning it. It's almost salacious.
I suppose there's also projection - the darkness is over there.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
yes - that is a good point
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: Killing your own children is a huge leap from thinking that if your children faced a death or conversion-to-a-crazy-violent-sect choice, that death would be a preferable outcome.
Maybe you're right. Yeah, I guess there's a difference between killing your children and allowing others to kill them. Although when push comes to shove, this difference may not be that big in practice.
Like I said, my priority in any case would be to keep my children alive. Once again, I'm not making a moral judgement here, just commenting that I find it interesting that such a difference exists.
If anything, historically your position seems to be the minority one. Throughout history there have been myriads of people who have seen their children grow up in brutal slavery. Allowing their children to die doesn't seem to have been the preferential option for them.
quote:
Marvin the Martian: My greatest interest is in why people are so determined to believe that shit like this is happening.
Fred Clark (the Slacktivist) did a series of posts on what he calls 'martyr envy'. The search function on his blog isn't very good, but I found this post. He seems to have two explanations for it:- Being a premillennial Evangelical Christian can be rather boring. You basically just sit there, in most situations rather comfortably, waiting for Jesus to return and bring on the rapture. Imagining yourself as a martyr gives a feeling of excitement.
- Thinking about what you would do in a situation where faced with such a choice makes you look like kind of a hero. Even if it's only an imaginary situation, this can give quite a big ego boost.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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