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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Nine Lessons and Carols
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I was horrified on going to church today to find that the powers that be have decreed that our Nine Lessons and Carols will be held in the afternoon of Advent Sunday (November 30th). This is not an Advent Carol Service, but the full Christmas carol service. The music director has said that he thinks people won't come to an Advent carol service, but that he is 'too busy' in December leading up to Christmas to have the Carol service closer to Christmas. Apparently no discussion will be entered into. I contend that is litugically incorrect to hold it on November 30th and that I doubt if many people will be desirous to attend so many weeks before Christmas. I'm not sure where else to take this. Do I write a letter to the Parish Council? The whole choir is up in arms about this and it is causing a lot of ill feeling between the music director and the choir. Any suggestions gratefully received.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
It's not primarily a liturgical atrocity; it is evangelically stupid and a catechetical catastrophe.
Church isn't a Hallmark card. The services teach. Teaching the Nativity in Advent is disastrous malpractice. And, your music director is an idiot.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Since a carol service is not a liturgical event, and is not in the calendar, it is not 'liturgically incorrect' to have it at an odd time, though it may render the content inappropriate.
However, I would have thought a music director who expects his choir to fit in with his own timetable and convenience to that extent, and hasn't won them over before taking that decision, is heading for serious trouble.
I'd suggest though that you don't write your threatened letter unless you have voiced your views clearly to your music director first.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
It sounds as if your music director has too many irons in too many fires to be able to prioritise his church commitment. Or else he has some momentous event happening in December which will legitimately prevent him doing Carols closer to Christmas, but which he hasn't divulged.
Might it be worth inquiring just why he's "too busy"? There may be a very good reason.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Is this music director a paid position or a voluntary one?
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
The music director is in a part time paid position, but he also hold a well paid full time job elsewhere. I tried to raise my concerns with him, he listened very politely and thanked me for raising the issue, but said he was not prepared to do anything about it. Normally he is a reasonable fellow, so I'm not sure what agenda is causing him to make such a strange decision re the Carol service. I think it is not going to be possible to prevent this happening this year, but I think he will hear very strong opposition if it ever happens again.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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# 10745
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Posted
Might as well hold this carol service in June, when we in northern-hemisphere, are having midsummer!
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Maybe you will discover after Christmas why he couldn't manage to have the service over Christmas itself.
But I agree, if it is to be more than a one-off for an unavoidable reason, then you are entitled to object. Choir members are not pawns on a chessboard to be moved around at will - maybe they have their own busy commitments around Advent which would make such an undertaking difficult for THEIR timetables?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Bib
I'm an organist and director of music and - as posts elsewhere might indicate - I expect to be trusted to the job I am paid to do, particularly in relation to those areas where I have received more training than others in the parish.
BUT on the question of when a service should be - it doesn't matter whether it is one in the liturgical calendar or not - that is not up to me: that is something for the Priest-in-Charge to discuss with the Churchwardens. Any further discussion may well involve me, but setting the date is for the Wardens, PinC and the Church Council.
Since your organist is paid then they should have a Contract, and this should specify those services that are viewed as being 'statutory' - in other words, those he cannot be absent for, even if he puts in a deputy, without consultation with the PinC and Wardens. If this is not the case then it is something that should be addressed as a matter of urgency.
As to the matter in hand: it is not for the organist to say when the Festival of lessons and carols should be - that is for the clergy and church council.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
As a priest, I wouldn't permit a Christmas carol service in Advent. I'd give my choir director three options. One, hold the Christmas carol service during Christmas (12 days in Christmas). Two, do Advent lessons and carols. Three, don't do a service of lessons and carols this year.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Roselyn
Shipmate
# 17859
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Posted
If you are stuck with it, use it as an opportunity to advertise widely, Most secular Christmas events start well before Advent. You may find this a great opportunity to reach people who are unaware of the church calendar, Try some clever presentations with your lessons...If you are in the southern hemisphere you have a chance to lead up to the long summer holidays, exam times, mew job seeling etc.
Posts: 98 | From: gold coast gld australia | Registered: Oct 2013
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
bib, are you in the choir?
In my area there are two lessons and carols services in Advent that I know of. They are both extremely well attended and beautiful services.
One takes place on the afternoon of the first December Sunday in Advent. It is jointly put on by the choirs of several area churches, and it is up to choristers whether they participate or not. There is always a very large choir, a packed church, and many people tell me afterwards what a wonderful time they had and how much they appreciated it.
The other takes place in early to mid-December. It is put on by students at the local college, and they typically schedule it for just before exams. It has a fairly small choir (it fluctuates, and has been larger in the past, but the past few years they seem to be scrabbling for both singers and rehearsal time). It takes place in a smaller church than the other service, but is equally packed. Not being a member of that choir, I can't say what comments they get for it, but as an appreciative attendee, I am very glad they do it.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Since a carol service is not a liturgical event, and is not in the calendar, it is not 'liturgically incorrect' to have it at an odd time, though it may render the content inappropriate.
Enoch, I believe you have the wrong end of the stick. It matters not whether the old categorization labels a lessons & carols service liturgical or not.
The calendar still prevails and texts taken at odds to the calendar are wrongly selected, which is, to be fair, where you wind up.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Roselyn:
If you are stuck with it, use it as an opportunity to advertise widely, Most secular Christmas events start well before Advent. You may find this a great opportunity to reach people who are unaware of the church calendar, Try some clever presentations with your lessons...If you are in the southern hemisphere you have a chance to lead up to the long summer holidays, exam times, mew job seeling etc.
Last year my local supermarket had eggnog on the shelves on Sept. 25. Compared to that I guess Christmas carols on I Advent isn't so bad. (By the way, I complained about the eggnog. The person I talked to said she'd tell the manager, but she had a look in her eyes like she thought I was slightly nuts, which was probably justified.)
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Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Complaining about eggnog? Why shouldn't people drink what they like whenever they want? I'd like my supermarket to have eggnog throughout the year. I'll have to remember to check in a week to see if I'm fortunate enough to have a supermarket which is in the pleasant club of early-eggnog-stockers.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Where did this north American custom of drinking warm alcoholic custard come from? And why associate it with Christmas?
No, in the UK Christmas is mince pies and mulled wine.
For bib, I'm guessing a super main course followed by Pavlova?
As for AR having eggnog available, here in the UK my local supermarket has had Christmas cards on sale for the past 3 weeks. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
No-one'll die or burn in Hell for all eternity, but a carol service on Advent Sunday is going to exacerbate the feeling of being fed up with Christmas before Christmas Eve...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Where did this north American custom of drinking warm alcoholic custard come from? And why associate it with Christmas?
No, in the UK Christmas is mince pies and mulled wine.
For bib, I'm guessing a super main course followed by Pavlova?
As for AR having eggnog available, here in the UK my local supermarket has had Christmas cards on sale for the past 3 weeks.
Like many dishes that took off in Colonial-era North America, eggnog is of British origin (as is pumpkin pie!). It started out as posset served hot with added madeira or sherry, which was changed to rum when it crossed the Atlantic as it was easier to get hold of (for obvious reasons). It's called an Egg Flip or a Hell's Angel in British sources. Not sure why it's associated with Christmas, probably just due to it being warming and an indulgence from the booze and creaminess. Anyway, it's not a million miles away from advocaat and I definitely associate that (and snowballs made with it) with Christmas!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Am I missing something here? Has anyone asked the fairly basic question of how a music director seems to be calling the shots on what happens in church?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Where did this north American custom of drinking warm alcoholic custard come from?
Warm ![[Confused]](confused.gif) It's served ice cold, my dear.
And as far as it being available all year is concerned, it's not difficult to make home-made. Substitute sucralose for the sugar and half-and-half for the milk, and you've got an Atkins Diet-friendly drink.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Not sure why it's associated with Christmas, probably just due to it being warming and an indulgence from the booze and creaminess.
Your expertise on North America has failed you; eggnog is always served cold.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Where did this north American custom of drinking warm alcoholic custard come from?
Warm It's served ice cold, my dear.
In that case, where did this north American custom of drinking cold alcoholic custard come from? ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Where did this north American custom of drinking warm alcoholic custard come from?
Warm It's served ice cold, my dear.
In that case, where did this north American custom of drinking cold alcoholic custard come from?
If you want something like that, surely one should add jelly, sponge and cream and turn it into a nice trifle?
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Am I missing something here? Has anyone asked the fairly basic question of how a music director seems to be calling the shots on what happens in church?
Quite right. This person needs slapping down bigtime and it sounds like even if this meant you didn't have a music director at all as a result the church would be better off.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
The church would be better off without a music director? Kill the choir and do without music in church fifty-two weeks of the year in order to avoid telling people the Nativity story with words and music at an unconventional time? That seems like an overly-hysterical reaction.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
As a priest, I wouldn't permit a Christmas carol service in Advent. I'd give my choir director three options. One, hold the Christmas carol service during Christmas (12 days in Christmas). Two, do Advent lessons and carols. Three, don't do a service of lessons and carols this year.
Agree.
In 'the good old days' we didn't sing any carols until midnight mass.
The 9 lessons and carols was always held between December 27th and January 5th
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Is the situation outlined ideal? No.
Is it better for people to go to a Christmas service at this time than not at all? Yes.
Of such things are compromises made, unfortunately! Even in Ecclesiantics, there is a time when liturgical purity has to be lain aside for the sake of the greater good.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I've been invited to conduct a neighbouring parish's 'Carols by Candlelight' on December 14th....i.e. halfway through Advent (I like this sort of service, so I'm rather looking forward to it!).
I'm not responsible for the order of service, but I'm hoping that it will have at least one or two 'Advent-ish' hymns or carols!
Given the fact that the secular 'Christmas' begins somewhen about now, I think compromise is called for......
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Am I missing something here? Has anyone asked the fairly basic question of how a music director seems to be calling the shots on what happens in church?
Quite right. This person needs slapping down bigtime and it sounds like even if this meant you didn't have a music director at all as a result the church would be better off.
We have no idea what the discussions have been between the music director and the priest-in-charge. bib's original post says "the powers that be" have decided, not "the music director" has decided. I don't know what bib means by "the powers that be", perhaps "the music director" is meant. But I think it's going off half-cocked to assume that the priest-in-charge hasn't assented to this in some way -- fact is, we just don't know either way right now.
Unless bib is perhaps the priest-in-charge, and has omitted telling us that?
[ 15. September 2014, 16:12: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Even in Ecclesiantics, there is a time when liturgical purity has to be lain aside for the sake of the greater good.
Lynching with silk-tasseled rope in 3.. 2.. 1..
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
We often have an Advent service of lessons and carols on a Sunday afternoon in December. There has been pressure from a small contingent in the parish to switch to a Christmas theme, which I continue to resist. With Frosty the Effing Snowman playing in every shopping mall starting the day after Thanksgiving, they should be getting plenty of Xmas. The church shouldn't be rearranging its calendar to suit the shopkeepers' season.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Even in Ecclesiantics, there is a time when liturgical purity has to be lain aside for the sake of the greater good.
Lynching with silk-tasseled rope in 3.. 2.. 1..
Oh I know I know. And it pains me to give in to, as Fr Weber puts it, the 'shopkeepers view' of a major liturgical season. If it were my parish, I probably wouldn't attend... but that's the position we're in I guess!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I assumed bib's church would still have mass on Christmas. Why would you hire a church musician who couldn't work on Christmas? Better tell him now not to plan anything for Easter.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
There is a lot of misunderstanding about the importance of observing Advent. And perhaps needs clearly explaining every year. We've had people become very disappointed, and even leave, because they've turned up to the Advent carol service expecting Christmas carols and only getting Advent ones. Of course, the offer of free mince pies can't have anything to do with it....
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I assumed bib's church would still have mass on Christmas. Why would you hire a church musician who couldn't work on Christmas? Better tell him now not to plan anything for Easter.
The Lessons and Carols service is not necessarily held on Christmas Day. In fact I've never been in a church that had their Lessons and Carols service on Christmas Day. (And as long as we're speculating: the choir might also revolt at being obliged to commit to a big service on The Day Itself.) So we don't know that the music director can't work on Christmas. And we also don't know whether the music director's contract includes working on Christmas. Our Christmas Day services used to be without music (IIRC).
Easter is a different story because it's on a Sunday. But for the time around Easter different churches may have different practices for the services of Holy Week, as to whether the music director is contracted to be available for them or not.
[ 15. September 2014, 20:30: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
This is Advent. quote:
1979 BCP Collect Advent I:
Almighty God, give us grace to cast away the works of darkness, and put on the armor of light, now in the time of this mortal life in which your Son Jesus Christ came to visit us in great humility; that in the last day, when he shall come again in his glorious majesty to judge both the living and the dead, we may rise to the life immortal; through him who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever.
quote:
1979 BCP Collect Advent II:
Merciful God, who sent your messengers the prophets to preach repentance and prepare the way for our salvation: Give us grace to heed their warnings and forsake our sins, that we may greet with joy the coming of Jesus Christ our Redeemer; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever.
quote:
1979 BCP Collect for Advent III:
Stir up your power, O Lord, and with great might come among us; and, because we are sorely hindered by our sins, let your bountiful grace and mercy speedily help and deliver us; through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory, now and for ever.
quote:
1979 BCP Collect for Advent IV:
Purify our conscience, Almighty God, by your daily visitation, that your Son Jesus Christ, at his coming, may find in us a mansion prepared for himself; who lives and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever.
Fie on Popular Culture and the Shopkeepers.
Advent Lessons and Carols after the vigil mass for Advent IV? Yeah. That's the right compromise, I think.
[ 15. September 2014, 20:35: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Yet presumably we're called to minister to people who live in the popular culture. I don't think it's slam-dunk obvious how to be in the world but not of it between Thanksgiving to Christmas, and how to minister to people who are harried by that time period by, yes, the popular culture.
I think that the Lessons and Carols services I mentioned upthread, that unabashedly go all the way through the nativity and conclude with Christmas, not Advent, carols, do minister to the people who come to them, and help them to approach other frames of mind and orientation about the season that are helpful.
Might it be nice if everyone packed the church and the chapel involved for a good old service of sackcloth and ashes and Advent preparation? Sure, why not. Except it ain't gonna happen. Meet people where they are, not where we wish they were.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
The church would be better off without a music director? Kill the choir and do without music in church fifty-two weeks of the year in order to avoid telling people the Nativity story with words and music at an unconventional time? That seems like an overly-hysterical reaction.
Not at all, and who's saying it would kill of the choir? But the music director is there to serve the Church's worship and not vice versa. Any music director who doesn't understand this is dangerous.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Advent Lessons and Carols after the vigil mass for Advent IV? Yeah. That's the right compromise, I think.
You're kidding, right? The music director to play a vigil mass, then a Lessons and Carols service, then the next morning to play the regular Sunday morning Advent IV service? We don't even know if this church has vigil masses, nor whether they're part of what the music director normally is contracted to play. And he has already said he is busy at the Christmas season, which, given that he is proposing Christmas Carols on the first day of Advent, I suspect you can read in context as meaning time extending on both sides of Dec. 25, and not just the hyper-liturgically-correct days only on and after Dec. 25, hence probably including among other things the day and night before Advent IV. And that's a compromise?
Something we don't know, that could affect thinking about why the Music Director might come up with this proposal, and whether it's better to do it this way or not to do it at all, (or twist the Music Director's arm until he screams and make him do it a different way), we don't know is whether this church expects that Lessons and Carols will be the main Sunday service on a certain Sunday. We also don't know if the church and/or the choir and/or the Music Director think of Lessons and Carols as an inward looking service meant for the regular congregation, or as an outward looking service meant to attract a large number of people from outside the regular congregation.
If you were kidding, just chalk me up as a victim of Poe's Law.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
The church would be better off without a music director? Kill the choir and do without music in church fifty-two weeks of the year in order to avoid telling people the Nativity story with words and music at an unconventional time? That seems like an overly-hysterical reaction.
Not at all, and who's saying it would kill of the choir? But the music director is there to serve the Church's worship and not vice versa. Any music director who doesn't understand this is dangerous.
I've never heard a story of "church kicked out music director, choir thrives". I've only heard stories of "church kicked out music director, choir died". But sure, this church might be the exception. Contra this rosy hypothesis, I note that the disgruntled choir members, in this choir that you hypothesize wouldn't be killed by losing the music director, haven't stepped up to say "no, we don't like Nov. 30, but we don't actually need a music director, so we're going to put together the Lessons and Carols service ourselves on the date we think is proper." At least not as far as bib has reported.
We also don't know anything to suggest that this music director is not doing his best to serve the church's worship, and we don't know what the priest-in-charge at this church thinks of the Nov. 30 proposal, whether that priest thinks Nov. 30 serves the church's worship or not.
We know that some people in the choir, and bib, don't like the proposal. SOP when any change is proposed in a church. I'd like bib to show up and fill in some of the major blanks in this story.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Well, yes, I was rather asssuming the worst.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
The worst about the music director but the best about the choir, it seems to me.
As far as disgruntled choirs go:
Some members of our choir started to complain about singing the Easter Vigil. Eventually we discontinued that service.
At another time, some choir members complained about being asked (not required) if they wanted to go sing at the Cathedral as part of a massed choir for the ordination of a member of our parish. "Heck no, we don't know her, why would we want to bother going?" was the general sentiment.
So disgruntled choir members by themselves don't persuade me that anything wrong is happening. I'm often sympathetic to the problems facing choir members, but there's such a vacuum of information about this situation, and it would be so in character for church members to be complaining about CHANGE OH NO that I'm not particularly swayed yet.
[ 15. September 2014, 21:54: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I assumed bib's church would still have mass on Christmas. Why would you hire a church musician who couldn't work on Christmas? Better tell him now not to plan anything for Easter.
The Lessons and Carols service is not necessarily held on Christmas Day. In fact I've never been in a church that had their Lessons and Carols service on Christmas Day. (And as long as we're speculating: the choir might also revolt at being obliged to commit to a big service on The Day Itself.) So we don't know that the music director can't work on Christmas. And we also don't know whether the music director's contract includes working on Christmas. Our Christmas Day services used to be without music (IIRC).
Easter is a different story because it's on a Sunday. But for the time around Easter different churches may have different practices for the services of Holy Week, as to whether the music director is contracted to be available for them or not.
I thought somebody up thread implied bib said lessons and carols was the Christmas service. I thought I must have missed it. Nevermind
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
To answer some questions: We would usually hold Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve in the early evening followed later in the evening by Midnight Mass. This has always worked very well and we have a packed church of regular and irregular worshippers.
The current minister is in retirement mode and apparently agreed to the Music director's idea just to keep the peace with him. Unfortunately nobody thought to ask the choir if it would be acceptable. All the other usual services will not change and we will still have Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve.
We don't really want to remove our music director - after all how easy is it to find someone to fulfil the post? He is a keen musician and a committed Christian and is generally liked by the congregation.
We have attempted in the past to hold an Advent Carol service on Advent Sunday, but the attendance has been abysmal, so abandoned future attempts.
The choir has suggested that we compromise and hold Nine Lessons and Carols on Sunday 14th December this year even though that is still Advent, but have been met with a firm no. The minister says 'go and talk to the Music Director, not me'.
I don't think the congregation knows as yet what is happening, but I am guessing that they won't be enthusiastic.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
bib, thanks for filling in the details.
How long has your minister been in retirement mode? And does he have a definite retirement date in mind, or is he just going to be in retirement mode for some indefinite period of time, driving everyone around him crazy?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
bib, I didn't quite note your denomination- are you Anglican? ISTM that this is the sort of problem that the Rural Dean or Archdeacon might be asked to get involved with (as a symptom of what appears, if I may say so, to be your minister's neglect of his/her duties while running down to retirement).
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I've been invited to conduct a neighbouring parish's 'Carols by Candlelight' on December 14th....i.e. halfway through Advent (I like this sort of service, so I'm rather looking forward to it!).
I'm not responsible for the order of service, but I'm hoping that it will have at least one or two 'Advent-ish' hymns or carols!
Given the fact that the secular 'Christmas' begins somewhen about now, I think compromise is called for......
Ian J.
This is a situation where I think you really need to think about the expectations of the people who are (hopefully) going to attend - especially non-regulars.
If I were a very occasional attender, coming to a carol service in December, I would probably be very disappointed to find that we weren't singing all the "traditional" Christmas carols. And I would probably be pissed off if someone then tried to lecture me on the difference between Advent and Christmas.
In December, people want to sing "O Come all ye faithful" and "O little town of Bethlehem" etc. If you give 'em what they want, who knows - they may want to come back another time. In my experience, Christmas carols and readings on or after Advent 3 works well. People enjoy and go away happy.
(Doing it on November 30th is way too early, IMHO.)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I've been invited to conduct a neighbouring parish's 'Carols by Candlelight' on December 14th....i.e. halfway through Advent (I like this sort of service, so I'm rather looking forward to it!).
I'm not responsible for the order of service, but I'm hoping that it will have at least one or two 'Advent-ish' hymns or carols!
Given the fact that the secular 'Christmas' begins somewhen about now, I think compromise is called for......
Ian J.
This is a situation where I think you really need to think about the expectations of the people who are (hopefully) going to attend - especially non-regulars.
If I were a very occasional attender, coming to a carol service in December, I would probably be very disappointed to find that we weren't singing all the "traditional" Christmas carols. And I would probably be pissed off if someone then tried to lecture me on the difference between Advent and Christmas.
In December, people want to sing "O Come all ye faithful" and "O little town of Bethlehem" etc. If you give 'em what they want, who knows - they may want to come back another time. In my experience, Christmas carols and readings on or after Advent 3 works well. People enjoy and go away happy.
Indeed. But I hope they would still go away happy if "O Come, O Come Emmanuel" was the first (or second if you have to begin with "Once in Royal David's City") carol/hymn and they then sang "O Come all ye faithful" and "O little town of Bethlehem" etc as well. That seems like a reasonable compromise to me.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Any well-balanced 9 Lessons should have hymns and carols that reflect the readings.
Since the first 5 readings are not about Christmas per se the first vaguely Christmassy thing would be after 5th lesson (the annunciation). Lessons 6, 7 and 8 are about the birth, visit of the shepherds and arrival of the magi; lesson 9 is 'St John unfolds the great mystery of the incarnation' so not specifically Christmassy either.
IMO (and notwithstanding the long tradition in Cambridge) Once in Royal is not an ideal choice for first hymn; a better one would be Come thou Redeemer of the earth (Veni Redemptor gentium) which is the Office Hymn for Christmas Eve - but O come, O come Emmanuel is a good alternative.
There are plenty of stirring Advent hymns which can be sung in between Lessons 1 to 5 so really no need for a surfeit of shepherds, angels, etc.
As for when it should be: I know the purist view is after Christmas Day but this doesn't work in the modern world where many people use that time to visit scattered family; a compromise is the evening of the fourth Sunday in Advent.
No, you don't need a Christmas tree in church and decorations using just greenery and some red candles can look stunning.
As for the organist who is dictating this: it can't be. If he has managed to get his schedule so tangled he can't do it himself then a replacement organist needs to be found PDQ.
Of course, a well-run parish sorts out the dates of special services for Christmas in the first 3 months of the year... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
I don't know bib's situation, but here in the Untied Methodist Church of the sunny South (USA) we think Advent is pre-Christmas, and think we have to break out the Christmas carols at 1 Advent. Christmas is done by Christmas Eve. The calendar is a mere suggestion and the 12 days of Christmas is a song.
Frustrating. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
And if you have a happy-clappy church like mine they don't know what Advent is. The Christmas season here is the period between Thanksgiving and Christmas.
bib, I feel your pain.
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I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
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