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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ex-gay ministries
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
This is picking up some questions from the Peterson Toscano thread in Heaven that deserve some space for a good discussion of them.
quote:
Originally posted by Amiyah:
quote:
Originally posted by peterson toscano:
quote:
Originally posted by Amiyah:
Peterson was brilliant last night in Bradford - funny, moving, enlightening...
I only regret not asking him the couple of questions I wanted to - didn't quite manage to put my hand up!
Soooo, I see that hand, what is your question? :-p
Let's continue the discussion we started in Bradford.
Well the things I wanted to ask were...
In your experience, were the ex-gay programmes keen on 'headship' type theology as well - ie were the women being trained to be led by their future husbands and vice versa?
You talked about the way that the ex-gay ministries focussed on the gender-expression of the members of those ministries - ie getting women to act in a way that the ministry considers to be more feminine, and men in a way that they consider to be more masculine. What did they make of femme lesbians - or didn't they apply to join?
What would lead a straight person to marry someone who had recently come out of an ex-gay programme, do you think - I mean, not to be so fearful of the person 'reverting' to being gay that they avoided such a relationship?
I don't really bump into many Christians who say that ex-gay ministries can change peoples' sexual orientation, and for example the True Freedom Trust doesn't really seem to promise this, but to hold out an ideal of celibacy for gay people. Do organisations still seek to change people from gay to straight? Do you think that LGBT people are damaged as much by organisations holding out celibacy as organisations which sought/seek to make people straight?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Size isn't everything.
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Why?
Some find art...disturbing.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) Well that's cheered up my afternoon.
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
I suppose it isn't that surprising that in my social circles I rarely (or more accurately, never) meet anyone who claims to be a successful product of the ex-gay programs. I've known several who were successful ex-ex-gays...
They are a mixed group--a lot of them manage to work through the issues and seem to be able to form long-term lasting relationships without permanent damage. Some of them remain fairly neurotic, but the extent to which that could be blamed specifically on the ex-gay programs is debatable in my mind--I suspect they were neurotic before ever attempting to change.
The one thing all the stories seem to have in common is that there seems to be more "opportunity for sin" within the program than at the local gay bar on a Saturday night.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
From my limited experience of hearing the testimonies of ex-gays (look, mom, no scare quotes!), they all seem to have spent their former years living in a rather more interesting suburb of Babylon from the one I inhabit. You have to applaud them really - the sheer quantity of sin and depravity they claim to have been involved in takes time and commitment. And skill.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
It sort of sounds like people in AA who say you'll drink again if you don't go to meetings. The only ones you know about are the ones who DID drink and then came crawling back. So I suppose if someone were successfully reprogrammed then he's busy out there making babies, drinking beer, and going to ball games, with only the occasional stop in the airport men's room like Senator Larry "I'm-not-gay" Craig.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
At least the people in AA aren't being locked up in a room with a full bar...
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
From my limited experience of hearing the testimonies of ex-gays (look, mom, no scare quotes!), they all seem to have spent their former years living in a rather more interesting suburb of Babylon from the one I inhabit. You have to applaud them really - the sheer quantity of sin and depravity they claim to have been involved in takes time and commitment. And skill.
A TFT person of some note lived in my patch when I was still working for my living and I spent an afternoon chatting to him one day and ALL he talked about was the adventures he had when cottaging [tearoom trade to our North American friends] - I think I gave him a real nostalgia trip, or perhaps just a listening ear. He was definitely quite neurotic about it all. When I left I felt I was leaving quite a disturbed and needy person. My colleagues in other areas of sexual health work locally felt very much the same about him.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
And now for something a little more serious...
After re-reading the OP, I certainly agree with Alan that these are fascinating questions. I'm less certain, however, that the Ship really has anyone who could address them fully--certainly I don't recall a body of members who have outed themselves as ex-gay or ex-ex-gay. My own more germane post (as opposed to the smart-ass comment) was based purely on the remarks of a few friends through the years sharing their own experiences.
Of course, lack of any real basis for our ruminations has never stopped us before...
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Amiyah
Shipmate
# 11989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
And now for something a little more serious...
After re-reading the OP, I certainly agree with Alan that these are fascinating questions. I'm less certain, however, that the Ship really has anyone who could address them fully--certainly I don't recall a body of members who have outed themselves as ex-gay or ex-ex-gay. My own more germane post (as opposed to the smart-ass comment) was based purely on the remarks of a few friends through the years sharing their own experiences.
Of course, lack of any real basis for our ruminations has never stopped us before...
I'm flattered that you think that these questions are fascinating, Organ Builder! I agree that it would be optimistic to expect a 'body' of ex-[ex]-gay Shipmates to jump in with their thoughts. However, I bet that Peterson Toscano has an equally fascinating perspective to share on possible answers to these questions, given his 17-year involvement with the ex-gay movement, if he feels moved to contribute his ideas. And there may be people who have less direct experience of ex-gay ministries with interesting things to say in response.
Fingers crossed.
[ 27. May 2009, 18:35: Message edited by: Amiyah ]
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Previously called MirrorMouse
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Why?
Some find art...disturbing.
Quite.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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geroff
Shipmate
# 3882
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
certainly I don't recall a body of members who have outed themselves as ex-gay or ex-ex-gay.
If you look at the original heaven thread you will find that the questions were being addressed to a shipmate with all the right credentials for the discussion. We're just waiting for him to turn up.
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"The first principle in science is to invent something nice to look at and then decide what it can do." Rowland Emett 1906-1990
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
When I was a student at Azusa Pacific University in California and struggling with my sexuality while attending that conservative Wesleyan school, I briefly got involved with one of the local ex-gay ministries - Desert Stream. This was back in the 1980s when most ex-gay ministries still claimed that "healing" meant a complete transformation of someone's sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual. (Since then, most of the older ex-gay groups' claims have become more vague. "Healing" now can mean celibacy with little or no change in sexual orientation.)
As far as they were concerned, the basis of "same-sex attraction" (often abbreviated as SSA) was the Freudian dominant mother/passive father theory and/or same-sex bullying, abuse or molestation. They did a good job at convincing everyone that they had this in their past (and who hasn't been teased or bullied by another boy or girl at one point in their childhood?) You were corrected if you used the word "homosexual", "gay" or "lesbian" because that suggested identity and they believed that using those words was confusing and impeded healing.
Anyway, it worked a lot like an AA program where people expected to detach from "homosexual culture", get plugged into church culture and slowly work their way into dating members of the opposite sex with the goal of marriage - which was claimed as a success. There were milestones for not acting on your SSA like not going to a gay bar, having sex or masturbating for 1 month, 6 months, a year, etc. You had a prayer partner who acted like a sponsor that you would call if you were lonely and tempted.
I don't remember being told that we shouldn't go to museums or art exhibits. As long as it wasn't a "gay" venue or involved alcohol, our freedom wasn't limited. The participants ranged from effeminate men to masculine men who loved sports and trucks but happened to be gay.
Even at the time I wasn't convinced that anyone's sexual orientation was really changed by this ministry. Perhaps some of the men were bisexual and could repress their homosexual side in favour of their heterosexual side, but for people like me, who are Kinsey 5 or 6's, nothing changed. But some still got married out of a sense of obligation to God, or to please family.
Most people dropped out after a few months or a year. There seemed to be a high turnover rate, which was accepted by the group. The ones who were successfully cured seemed to be the people who made ex-gay ministries their life's career. It seems obvious that the cure could only be sustained in an ex-gay environment and that people who returned to the real world usually relapsed.
As I mentioned, my heart wasn't into it. I was raised Episcopalian and never saw homosexuality as a heinous sin, but wanted to try all my options before accepting it. About that time I had already started attending All Saint's Church in Pasadena, CA, which had an active gay and lesbian group, and was starting to reconcile my faith and sexuality there. So after a few months I moved on.
While at All Saints, I met someone who was involved with Evangelicals Concerned Pasadena (http://www.ecpasadena.org/aboutus.html) and went to a few of their Bible studies and potlatches. I would say that at least half of their membership were ex-ex-gays in various stages of recovery from their experience. Some were still very guilt ridden for "failing" God, and some were better able to move on.
Anyway, I don't consider myself an ex-ex-gay because I was never a bona fide ex-gay to begin with. But I did get that chance to peek in the door.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
...to masculine men who loved sports and trucks but happened to be gay.
Gee. What a cruel joke God played on them! No wonder they were trying to change. (As opposed, one assumes, to the effeminate ones who loved Barbies and show tunes and only got what they deserved.)
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by geroff:
If you look at the original heaven thread you will find that the questions were being addressed to a shipmate with all the right credentials for the discussion. We're just waiting for him to turn up.
I have followed the original thread--and enjoyed the contributions of a man who joined the ship just a few months after I did and (when I checked yesterday) has a grand total of 40 posts. As the Heaven thread makes clear, he is a busy man with a lot of committments. As hard as it is to believe I think he must have a life that doesn't leave a lot of time for staring at a computer screen typing responses, then checking back in a few hours to respond to the responses to his response...
In addition, it takes more than one person to have a "discussion" (except when I'm talking to myself, but I try to shelter Shipmates from that particular neurosis).
My scepticism was expressed before ToujoursDan made his contribution--which I was happy to see because it at least gives perspective on North American ex-gay groups. I learned a long time ago that things don't necessarily work the same way on both sides of the Atlantic, even when we use the same words...
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
Well we've got at least 1 active ex-gay poster on the Ship. I notice he is married now (to a woman I assume) and training for ordination at an Evangelical college. Praps he can be ferretted out for comment.
Years ago there was someone briefly recruiting for ex-gay programs on board but they got a bollocking and left.
When I first came across TFT's (True Freedom Trust) website they seemed to be pursuing the celibate ideal for poofs and lesos in a fairly gentle way. But after The Courage Trust (Ex-program which decided in about 2002 'we've been doing this for over 10 yrs and you know wot, it hasn't worked) broke with EA 'cos they wouldn't insist on sexual celibacy they seemed to go up an order of magnitude in hardline.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
From my limited experience of hearing the testimonies of ex-gays (look, mom, no scare quotes!), they all seem to have spent their former years living in a rather more interesting suburb of Babylon from the one I inhabit. You have to applaud them really - the sheer quantity of sin and depravity they claim to have been involved in takes time and commitment. And skill.
Flippant aside no 1: does this imply that when you've amassed this quantity of sin and depravity, the only place to go is ex-?
Flippant aside no 2: this (and threads like it on the Ship) must be the best place to find Google ads for both gay dating websites and stairlifts.
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This space left intentionally blank. Do not write on both sides of the paper at once.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
Is a man ex-gay if he fancies Hugh Jackman or Patrick Stewart?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Auntie Doris
Screen Goddess
# 9433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by geroff:
If you look at the original heaven thread you will find that the questions were being addressed to a shipmate with all the right credentials for the discussion. We're just waiting for him to turn up.
I have followed the original thread--and enjoyed the contributions of a man who joined the ship just a few months after I did and (when I checked yesterday) has a grand total of 40 posts. As the Heaven thread makes clear, he is a busy man with a lot of committments. As hard as it is to believe I think he must have a life that doesn't leave a lot of time for staring at a computer screen typing responses, then checking back in a few hours to respond to the responses to his response...
He certainly is a busy man and as he is on tour at the moment his time online is limited (plus I believe his laptop has been playing up a bit.)
However, as Peterson spends a significant amount of time online I am sure he will be along here as soon as he is able. He spends plenty of time online but sometimes other things take priorities.
However, I will drop him a line to point him in the direction of this thread... he may scurry over then.
Auntie Doris x
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"And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power." - iGeek in response to a gay-hater :)
The life and times of a Guernsey cow
Posts: 6019 | From: The Rock at the Centre of the Universe | Registered: May 2005
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peterson toscano
Apprentice
# 12935
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Posted
sorry gang that I've been out of pocket. Was in Belfast, then Cardiff, London today, Sweden tomorrow. Hopefully by Tue I will have some time free to give a proper response.
:-)
peterson
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"Don't throw out the baby Jesus with the Evangelical bath water!"
peterson toscano
Posts: 45 | From: Somewhere over the Rainbow | Registered: Aug 2007
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Would the Roman Catholic program "Courage" count as an ex-gay ministry?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
When I was a student at Azusa Pacific University in California and struggling with my sexuality while attending that conservative Wesleyan school, I briefly got involved with one of the local ex-gay ministries - Desert Stream.
Both the name and your description of the ministry make it sound very much like 'Desert Stream' is closely related to 'Living Waters', which I was involved with for a period of 2 years. Not entire years, but a course that lasted roughhly 6 months.
I'm not sure I ever got far enough towards being 'ex-gay' to label myself as 'ex-ex-gay' now. Perhaps I'm just 'ex-attempted-ex-gay'.
Ironically, my Living Waters experience did achieve one important thing: it made it possible for me to talk about my feelings and attractions without struggling for breath and bursting into tears. This was actually an important milestone towards coming out as homosexual.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
In looking around teh Googles it looks like Living Waters is a ministry of Desert Stream, but I don't recall that term being used when I was there.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
From my limited experience of hearing the testimonies of ex-gays (look, mom, no scare quotes!), they all seem to have spent their former years living in a rather more interesting suburb of Babylon from the one I inhabit. You have to applaud them really - the sheer quantity of sin and depravity they claim to have been involved in takes time and commitment. And skill.
Flippant aside no 1: does this imply that when you've amassed this quantity of sin and depravity, the only place to go is ex-?
Flippant aside no 2: this (and threads like it on the Ship) must be the best place to find Google ads for both gay dating websites and stairlifts.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Hmph. Bloody internet ate my witty and clever post. Well, it's forever lost to posterity now ....
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
There is a Canadian group called "New Direction" that started out as an ex-gay ministry but seems to be taking an even softer approach now. They believe that homosexuality is a sin, though not a major one, and never claim it can be cured, but seem more interested in reaching across the divide and having conversations with gay people with the intent of "winning them over to Christ" and letting the Holy Spirit work in them - which may or may not mean celibacy or a transformation.
They have a blog here: Bridging the Gap
If these groups have to exist, I would like to see them take this approach.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
"New Direction"
... *snigger* ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
There is a Canadian group called "New Direction" that started out as an ex-gay ministry but seems to be taking an even softer approach now. They believe that homosexuality is a sin, though not a major one, and never claim it can be cured, but seem more interested in reaching across the divide and having conversations with gay people with the intent of "winning them over to Christ" and letting the Holy Spirit work in them - which may or may not mean celibacy or a transformation.
They have a blog here: Bridging the Gap
If these groups have to exist, I would like to see them take this approach.
I've a hunch that, as homophobia becomes more socially taboo while the old guard of the religious right begin to die off (not to be morbid or anything) we're going to see more of this.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
"New Direction"
... *snigger* ...
Ditto. In the plural.
... *snigger* ... ... *snigger* ...
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Loveheart
Blue-scarved menace
# 12249
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Posted
Qoheleth, that is brilliant!
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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi
Posts: 3638 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
OMG! That is priceless! Could they have possibly called it that with full knowledge of the elided homonyms?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Totally made my day.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
I doubt it. I think it was entirely accidental.
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Hmph.
Strikes me like a typical piece of adolescent male humour -- I think I first ran into it 40 odd years ago (and we won't talk about how odd some of those years were). I'd guess every sports team with over-15 (say) males has giggled about it for at least those 40 years. I wasn't at a single-sex school, but my UK friends who were, way back then, implied to me that this kind of thing was fairly common.
John
[ 10. June 2009, 05:44: Message edited by: John Holding ]
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
Not exactly speaking for Peterson (I'm sure he'll be along presently -- he's currently relaxing in Sweden) but from my experience/observations:
quote:
Originally posted by Amiyah:
Well the things I wanted to ask were...
In your experience, were the ex-gay programmes keen on 'headship' type theology as well - ie were the women being trained to be led by their future husbands and vice versa?
This is an artifact of the typically American fundamentalist/evangelical view of the proper role of genders in a marriage (and, by extension, the idea of the proper function of the "weaker sex" in society), so yeah ... it's common.
quote:
You talked about the way that the ex-gay ministries focussed on the gender-expression of the members of those ministries - ie getting women to act in a way that the ministry considers to be more feminine, and men in a way that they consider to be more masculine. What did they make of femme lesbians - or didn't they apply to join?
Ex-gay ministries largely used to (it's more nuanced these days) operate on faulty psychological premises -- that same-sex attraction was an outgrowth of confusion over gender and the outworking of gender roles. So "butch" (so-called "straight acting") gay men and femme lesbians do throw a bit of a wrench into the works. However, people convinced of a particular framing of reality despite evidence to the contrary rarely allow that to bother them.
quote:
What would lead a straight person to marry someone who had recently come out of an ex-gay programme, do you think - I mean, not to be so fearful of the person 'reverting' to being gay that they avoided such a relationship?
The language of "faith" and "as you believe, so it is". Straight spouses who involve themselves in these relationships would view recalcitrance on their part as "lack of faith".
quote:
I don't really bump into many Christians who say that ex-gay ministries can change peoples' sexual orientation, and for example the True Freedom Trust doesn't really seem to promise this, but to hold out an ideal of celibacy for gay people. Do organisations still seek to change people from gay to straight? Do you think that LGBT people are damaged as much by organisations holding out celibacy as organisations which sought/seek to make people straight?
Perhaps it's a bit more nuanced in non-American settings. Because of the intertwining with the right-wing culture war in the US, being nuanced is often a victim of the overarching agenda. The message is: "you're especially broken and you need to be fixed". This message coincides conveniently with the feelings of the person experiencing same-sex attraction struggling with the life-long cultural programming they find themselves at odds with.
When one feels "broken" and trusted voices confirm that, one commonly fails to prudently consider the fine print.
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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TiggyTiger
Shipmate
# 14819
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Posted
Can someone please explain the acronym joke to me - I can't see the particular acronym you're laughing at. Was it in that Bridging the Gap article?
At the church I go to in the morning, the leadership say that they accept homosexual people and that they are welcome at their church. At the same time they refer to homosexual sex as 'an abomination' and they hope that the Holy Spirit will convince the homosexual person that they are doing something wrong.
I wonder how they'd feel going to a church where their married relationships were described as 'abominations' and that everyone is waiting for them to realise how wrong they are. They have a strange idea of the word 'welcome'.
My evening church is gay.
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'Each and everybody is hiding, each is concealing the place where his heart beats.'
Daniel Barenboim
Posts: 347 | From: Bath | Registered: May 2009
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
Hi TiggyTiger
I assume it's the name 'New Directions'. Try pronouncing the second word with a short i as in 'bit', rather than pronouncing it like the famous Welshman, Dai Rections.
Then run the two words together ...
Oo-er missus.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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peterson toscano
Apprentice
# 12935
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Posted
I have not forgotten this thread! I have returned from Sweden, hung out in Philadelphia for a week at a transgender conference, bought a new laptop (because mine is ill-not dead, but ill) and NOW finally have a little time to devote some proper attention to this thread. I will read through all of what has been said and add some thoughts. I am so glad there is so much interest in this topic.
more later...
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"Don't throw out the baby Jesus with the Evangelical bath water!"
peterson toscano
Posts: 45 | From: Somewhere over the Rainbow | Registered: Aug 2007
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peterson toscano
Apprentice
# 12935
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Posted
I will answer the questions above at a time so that other ex-gay survivors and interested parties can respond. I have taken part in five different ex-gay programs in the US, UK and Ecuador. Each program runs differently with various treatments plans and philosophy. I have met well over 1,000 ex-gay survivors including over 200 in the UK. As someone who spent a lot of time sincerely looking for "help" from these programs, ministers and practioners, I have concluded that ex-gay treatment does not work, is unnecessary and causes more harm than good.
First Question quote:
In your experience, were the ex-gay programmes keen on 'headship' type theology as well - ie were the women being trained to be led by their future husbands and vice versa?
About the headship teaching, this came up a few times. Much of ex-gay treatment is geared towards men, something women complained about through the years, so programs offered little content specifically for women.
At Love in Action, a residential program I attended for two year, they had a section about submission in their workbook:
quote:
According to scripture, we are to submit (first of all) to God, then to whom God has placed in authority over us, such as Pastors, Christian elders, then husbands, employers, brothers and sisters in Christ and to civil authorities (when they are not in conflict with God)
At Love in Action (LIA) I learned that submission and accountability are the cornerstones for a successful “ex-gay” life. Each participant in the program was assigned a staff member to whom we privately confessed our daily sins–including masturbation. (When I first entered LIA, we admitted our masturbatory setbacks during the Tuesday night “Rules Rap”, but this stimulated fellow participants leading to yet further masturbation.)
Since we had lived "shady" gay lives for so long, staff instructed us to be honest and bring our current struggles to the light during our accountability sessions. Initially I felt refreshed and relieved by the freedom of confession. Suddenly I had nothing to hide; I could bring my deepest most shameful secrets and desires to a trusted leader and receive compassion, support, advice–accountability.
Of course this leader had a leader over him to whom he reported not only his shortcomings but also all of mine. Ultimately, I learned that in the “ex-gay” movement, honesty is not the best policy. After two years of intensive dehomosexualization, I was expected to be better–-less gay, less attracted to men, more in control of my urges. In some ways I was, but my carefully stitched together “ex-gay” existence barely held together no matter how much I trusted in the Lord and my spiritual leaders.
I confessed one sin too many, and got ratted out. The chain of command issued a directive to cut me loose before I unraveled in front of everyone.
Many “ex-gay” leaders and workers, often the products of “ex-gay” programs themselves, live under this kind of constant surveillance. They carefully confess their sins one to another in an elaborate code, with the fear that the powers that be will one day find them out. Isolated in a climate of cover-up, surrounded by operatives who can turn them in, these “ex-gay” leaders fight the good fight desperate to share their struggles and questions, but terrified at the consequences.
With a word, they can be cast out of their positions, lose their most intimate relationships and their church membership only to then become prey to a gay media who often ruthlessly dives on the fallen then picks the “ex-gay” bones clean as they hold the fallen up to the spotlight.
Sometimes I think that “ex-gay” leaders must be the loneliest people on earth.
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"Don't throw out the baby Jesus with the Evangelical bath water!"
peterson toscano
Posts: 45 | From: Somewhere over the Rainbow | Registered: Aug 2007
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
The "sins" of the ex-gay movement seem obvious and worthy of condemnation. But do you ever resent and address the "sins" of some of the gay media? Are you aware of any members of the politically-incorrect-gay-bashing media who have eventually opted for compassion rather than sensationalism and beaten their sledge hammers into saute pans?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Laurie17
Shipmate
# 14889
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Posted
This is a great thread.
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when thee touched my heart
I were undone like dropped blossom
Daw'r ffordd yn glir yn araf deg.
Posts: 659 | From: off hand | Registered: Jun 2009
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peterson toscano
Apprentice
# 12935
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Posted
Next Question quote:
You talked about the way that the ex-gay ministries focused on the gender-expression of the members of those ministries - ie getting women to act in a way that the ministry considers to be more feminine, and men in a way that they consider to be more masculine. What did they make of femme lesbians - or didn't they apply to join?
God looks on the heart, while some ex-gay programs look at your accessories.
Most ex-gay programs are designed for men. The teaching that women get in many of these is not very different from what they have gotten from their churches for many years.
- Dress and act like a proper lady (gender normative behaviour)
- Submit to your husband and those (particularly men) in authority over you
- Don't talk too much. Make room for the men
Sound familiar?
If say a "lip-stick" lesbian joined an ex-gay program, they would affirm her on her gender normative behaviour and likely press her into service to sort out the less fem gals among them.
One female-specific teaching that they will receive that one does not typically get in churches is in regards to relationships with other women. Many of these programs believe that gays and lesbians cannot have proper relationships with people of the same sex.
They assume the guys will end up in bed with other guys and encourage/insist that we ONLY had straight male friends.
For the women it gets more sinister. They believe that ANY and ALL relationships with any woman (bisexual, straight or lesbian) will likely end in an emotionally dependent relationship. They love to call these enmeshed relationships. They stress that a woman should not get close to other women because it will just get unhealthy and co-dependent.
They overlook the reality of inter-dependent healthy relationships.
In essence they insist that women only have intimate relationships with their husbands and children. Otherwise they should consider themselves like the "woman with the issue of blood" UNCLEAN and forbidden to get close to others.
Christine Bakke, a lesbian friend who also went through lots of ex-gay treatment like I produced some art and wrote about this for an article on our Beyond Ex-Gay website. She states:
quote:
The biggest problem I still face is fear of close relationships with others - especially women. Fear of "emotional dependency" or "enmeshment." Fear of needing someone. Fear of...I don't know. Just fear, and now just a consistent inability to wholly participate in friendships with others.
I know that it's not true - that while some relationships can be unhealthy, most are not. And closeness and yes, even at times emotional dependency should not be demonized. There are times when we all need others, and to be shamed for relationships that we had while ex-gay, those that others deemed unhealthy; relationships that may have been getting us through some of the tougher moments in our ex-gay process...it is a great harm and a great disservice to us at a time when we were the most vulnerable, and the most laid bare, needing others around us.
Perhaps you begin to get the picture that much of the ex-gay movement is not simply anti-gay, it is also anti-female.
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"Don't throw out the baby Jesus with the Evangelical bath water!"
peterson toscano
Posts: 45 | From: Somewhere over the Rainbow | Registered: Aug 2007
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
PETERSON!!! ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif) OMG!! I didn't know you were on the Ship!!! I've got to tell Cubby!!!
David
met Peterson at a Quaker gathering with Cubby once or twice -- he's really cool!!
PS: Just told Cubby and he says, "Oh, how COOL!" Will try to get Cubby to post again on the Ship. We've been away too long... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
[ 18. July 2009, 19:55: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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geroff
Shipmate
# 3882
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Posted
Here is a bit of news from the dreaded Anglican Mainstream site which is kind of predictable seeing what is being discussed over in Purg re Greenbelt and all of this.
What do we know about 'Transforming Congregations' and 'One by One'? Apart from that we don't want them here in the UK.
(I notice that the comments section for this blog post is turned off - I wonder why?.....)
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"The first principle in science is to invent something nice to look at and then decide what it can do." Rowland Emett 1906-1990
Posts: 1172 | From: Montgomeryshire, Wales | Registered: Jan 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I have just finished 'Straight to Jesus' by Tanya Erzen. She spent six years working alongside an ex-gay ministry. Her work is important because conservatives claim that LGBs can be 'cured'. Her sustained research shows this to be untrue. Even the ex-gay leaders say this is untrue and they object to the way the moral majority misquote them for their own agenda.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mr Clingford
Shipmate
# 7961
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Posted
I try to say to my fellow Christians that teh gays are alright, but if I wished to try to help change attitudes would joining the LGCM be a good idea? I'm straight so am I sticking my nose in and being patronising kind of thing or not?
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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.
If only.
Posts: 1660 | From: A Fleeting moment | Registered: Jul 2004
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Join, and don't worry. The gay and lesbian congregation I used to belong to was greatly enhanced by the straight people who came along. Or at least, I thought so.
There are prats in every setting, including gay and lesbian groups - when I left the church for good the straw that broke the camel's back was the separatist beliefs of a group of lesbians.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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