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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kill the Christians
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
If it is total war then killing everyone is okay. That's where we have come to. If atomic bombing of cities containing noncombatant children, the elderly, women and men okay, then where is the line.
Notwithstanding gibberish like killing people to save lives. Which is like screwing as a method of birth control.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I meant it when I said I do understand how Truman got to the point where he felt dropping the bombs was the only solution. i just draw the line at calling it justice. War is like a slopping over chamber pot of decisions people shouldn't have to make. It is an attempt to control something that is out of control. And invariably the people who make those decisions are not the ones tasked with carrying them out-- which is why I said it was individuals, not amorphous " armies" that have the opportunity to act in righteous ways during wartime. Because justice and righteousness isn't manifested in the abstract-- it is manifested by people to people.
i should expand on this-- Truman didn't cut the chains on Dachau's gates. Truman didn't walk around the rubble of Foy or attempt to keep peace during the rebuilding of Berlin. The people who did were in a position to show heroism, mercy, genorosity, diplomacy,brutality, vengance, and justice.
Truman was also not the guy who pressed the button that released Fat Man and Little Boy. The guy who did had to make his own peace with doing that. But he was an emotional wreck for decades after. That, also, is the chaos of war-- we inflict just as much damage on our own countrymen by waging it as we do the enemy, whether we deem it " justified" or not.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Truman was also not the guy who pressed the button that released Fat Man and Little Boy. The guy who did had to make his own peace with doing that. But he was an emotional wreck for decades after. That, also, is the chaos of war-- we inflict just as much damage on our own countrymen by waging it as we do the enemy, whether we deem it " justified" or not.
Shall we have empathy for the bomb dropper?
And, no, if the bombs are not falling on you, if the shots are not being fired in your streets, there is not 'just as much damage'. The Sept 11 attacks were a small taste I think. But just a small one. Consider 100 times more than that for a comparison.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I am talking about the kind of emotional and psychological toll taken on people we send to war. While the damage there is not as final as actual casualties, yes, it damn well does come back to my streets, and yes, the fallout is damn well as far reaching as actual fallout. If not more.
And yes, I have empathy for the guy who pressed the button.
[ 30. May 2015, 20:29: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Martin60, that movie quote is certainly copyrighted and as such far too long to survive here per Commandment 7.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
I read a strategic analysis of the final weeks of WW2 some years ago, and basically the bomb was not really necessary against Japan - it was a warning shot across the bows for Russia. It may have shortened the war slightly, but the Japanese were ready to surrender.
Have you a source for that analysis? The evidence of continuing Japanese intransigence is pretty impressive. Some of it has been quoted in this thread. And that was after the bombs were dropped.
It is easy to reassess probabilities after the event; different risk factors may apply. It is also true that there was significant US code-breaking work which gave access to the contemporary thinking and plans of the Japanese military. Did the analysis you read make any reference to that contemporary evidence?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I am convinced that the atomic bombs saved many Japanese lives.
The military who were running things had no intention of surrendering, and they behaved as if they did not value Japanese lives, military or civilian.
Moo
That's just a rationalism.
Do you believe that the quote I gave in this post is a fake? The man who said this was in prison for his part in the conspiracy.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
i am fully prepared to believe that the leaders of the Japanese militia were fully batshit. The way they treated both Japanese soldiers and their own civilians settles the matter for me.
I, too, have heard about rumors of surrender before Hiroshima. Perhaps, as with the German army, specific high ranking officers were becoming aware of the batshittiness of their leaders and were making plans of their own to surrender?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Sorry, Moo, that's what I get for reading backwards. So Hirohito brought up peace talks as early as June 1945, and his batshit generals forced him down. What a shitty time in history to be a Japanese national
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The batshit is war. Leaders are perfectly rational people decide that killing others in organized, efficient ways to further mostly economic ends.
I've read a series of psychological studies of defeated WW2 leaders and senior personnel. At the times of the studies, 1945 in to the 1950s, those examining them were motivated to find that they were crazy or had defective personalities. They also hoped that their characteristics were unique, and that the risks of development of same within the victors' countries was low. They didn't succeed.
Not a comprehensive understanding, but the Californai F(ascist) Scale is interesting. Link.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(Woohoo, I'm a liberal airhead.)
I have no doubt that the Japanese militia, the German militia, and the US militia would have passed that particular test with flying colors-- and by militia, I am referring to high level commanders who dictated overall war policy. How about the average infantryman, though, in any of those armies?
ETA: I went back and took the test again, imagining I was answering as my 15 year old, Missouri Synod Lutheran self. My score shot up.
[ 30. May 2015, 22:27: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I've read a series of psychological studies of defeated WW2 leaders and senior personnel. At the times of the studies, 1945 in to the 1950s, those examining them were motivated to find that they were crazy or had defective personalities.
Do you think that the author of the quote that I gave was a reasonable human being?
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
One of the reasons I took the test again, Moo, is to see how responding with what I had been taught were integral Christian values would effect my placement. The point being, fascists tendacies did not originate in and were not quarantined to Axis countries. I am afraid that NP's point is that a career in war either attracts people with fascist leanings or (worse) cultivates those leanings.
I still am holding out hope for the common dogface, though. Living through the Reagan era taught me that the right wing doctrine I accepted and parroted in my teens did not hold up in the face of deeper values I had about human worth. The more "right" the rhetoric grew, the more my integrity resisted. Soldiers don't have the right to disobey orders, but hopefully when they were faced with those individual choices I keep talking about, their more human selves reigned.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Not sure which quote. I found the one about the Japanese philosophy.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Kelly, the problem was that it was the high-up Japanese military that were prepared to kidnap the emperor to prevent surrender.
During the 1930s, the Japanese military used to conduct political assassinations. They killed prime minister and at least one cabinet officer.
It's not so much right versus left as military versus civilian. As that quote I posted said, the military believed it had the right to run the country as it saw fit. They considered themselves the true Japan.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Not sure which quote. I found the one about the Japanese philosophy.
I don't see this... quote:
The purpose of the projected coup d'etat was to separate the Emperor from his peace-seeking advisers and persuade him to change his mind and continue the war...All we wanted was a military government with all political power concentrated in the hands of the war minister....
..as a statement of philosphy. It's a political statement, justifying an attempted political kidnapping.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Yes, I referred to those ideas above. i am talking about NP's assertion that war itself is batshit, and hence my reference to the average Japanese/ American / German soldier. And my own young self. What turns someone from a simple patriot into a fascist?
(Crosspost)
[ 30. May 2015, 23:15: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
My impression is that the Japanese, and many of the German soldiers had had it drilled into them that obedience to authority was the highest virtue.
There is one story from the war that really flabbergasts me. A group of several hundred Japanese soldiers were camped on the bank of a river near a bridge. They heard enemy soldiers on the other side of the bridge, so they grabbed their guns and started across; they didn't know that the enemy had put explosives under the bridge which they detonated when the soldiers started across. The bridge didn't collapse, but there was a huge hole in it.
The enemy soldiers opened fire, and the Japanese soldiers were all hit; it was hard to miss under the circumstances. Some of the bodies fell into the river and others piled up on the bridge. The Japanese kept coming and kept dying. It should have been obvious that this wasn't going to work but they didn't stop to think. The bodies piled up on the bridge and the soldiers started climbing over them; the pile got higher and higher. They had been indoctrinated with the idea that they should stay on the offensive, and the fact that they were accomplishing nothing was irrelevant.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I saw this on Would you die for your country? on Deutsche Welle. Seemed relevant.
The young German boys and Japanese boys were like young people anywhere. No more fanatical than any other group of young people, who are prepared to see the other side's boys as less than human. You can convince young people, unsure of themselves and, in late adolescence or early adulthood, that war will be fun and give them a band of brothers, closer than family. They will think about women and glasses of some other intoxicant, and they will readily kill.
The 'going over the top' of WW1, which totally changed the demographics of western Canada from British descent to eastern Europe descent tells me that any nation's kids will die stupidly. The English, Scottish and Irish boys enlisted and didn't return. Their sisters married Ukrainians and other Galacians.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Based on my scanty readings of how soldiers fared in the Japanese army in WW2, I am willing to bet those boys had their commanding officer and a line of his helpers right behind them, promising if they didn't get shot in one direction, they'd get shot the other.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I know this is just Wikipedia, but holy crap. Scroll down and read the section on the treatment of soldiers by Imperial Japanese Army officers in WW2.
[ 31. May 2015, 01:15: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
All armies do that to a degree, when the troops don't fight or do what's ordered, they shoot them.
Yes, the Geneva Convention is supposed to govern the treatment of prisoners. But a country has to follow it. Japanese, Germans and Russians didn't. America doesn't re prisoners in their Cuban base, Guantanimo (however that's spelled).
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The young German boys and Japanese boys were like young people anywhere. No more fanatical than any other group of young people, who are prepared to see the other side's boys as less than human. You can convince young people, unsure of themselves and, in late adolescence or early adulthood, that war will be fun and give them a band of brothers, closer than family. They will think about women and glasses of some other intoxicant, and they will readily kill.
.
So, combine this with the spirit crushing training procedures described in the wiki article, and the impossibility of refusing an order...
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Well, so far, I am somewhat underwhelmed by the evidence and arguments in support of the thesis that a Japanese surrender was both likely and imminent in the run-up to the dropping of the bombs.
I suppose it would confirm prejudice against US military leadership of the time to argue that the whole thing was some kind of a stitch up by them of the available information; basically to give a warning to the Russians. And I guess if you believe that dropping the bombs was a monumental act of evil, and that military leadership is never to be trusted to deliver the straight truth, then the story might have some appeal. But that's not the way to do history.
Of course there is still a danger that history is written by the winners, with all that entails. All the more reason to examine the evidence very carefully which might give some credence to the stitch up theory. So where is it? I'm more than prepared to look at it with an open mind.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
if Europe and America had accepted the Jewish refugees into our ports, the very reason we call WW2 a "just war" would never had happened.
The Allies entered the war for their own self interest-- even if that interest was reasonable, as in " This maniac has occupied France and we're next!"...
Reasonable, yes. righteous? I don't believe justice and righteousness manifest themselves in war (except in terms of how individuals cope with it.)
It is not Nazi Germany's treatment of Jews that makes WW2 a just war. Any more than it is Imperial Japan's treatment of prisoners of war. These things didn't emerge into popular consciousness until after the war was ended (even though during and before the war there were people whose job it was to know).
Most but not all wars are wars of territorial expansion. Someone decides "we will make our nation greater by grabbing some territory off somebody else".
The options for the other nations are then
a) to accept the outcome
b) to go to war to prevent it
c) to make ineffective protest.
You're right that it is in the long-term interest of the other nations to prevent it.
If the good guys of the world got together to prevent it every time, we might actually be able to build a world order in which everyone knows that no-one gets away with grabbing territory.
While I don't like the word "righteous", I find it hard to resist the conclusion that such a world order would be a Good Thing.
And that therefore a war in defence of the victims of territorial aggression is - other things being equal - a just war.
Finding out after the event just how nasty the aggressor regime was and how relieved the liberated people are is just the icing on the cake. That's not the reason for making war.
As Christians we should be wanting our governments to go the extra mile to secure the desired outcome peacefully. But when that milestone has been passed, when those solutions have failed...
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I am convinced that the atomic bombs saved many Japanese lives.
The military who were running things had no intention of surrendering, and they behaved as if they did not value Japanese lives, military or civilian.
Moo
That's just a rationalism.
Do you believe that the quote I gave in this post is a fake? The man who said this was in prison for his part in the conspiracy.
Moo
Why would I think it fake? It's still a rationalism though.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
In an earlier post I said that I shuddered to think what might have happened if the emperor had been kidnapped. He was the only person who could command obedience from the military and civilian populations. A catastrophe would have happened if Japan had been invaded.
The military authorities had decided that if an invasion took place, no civilians would be evacuated from anywhere, not even hospital patients or babies. To understand how that might have worked out, you need to know about the fighting for Manila.
The Japanese refused to allow any civilians to leave the city. The Americans attacked it, and fought for it building-by-building. The fighting lasted for a month. At the end of that time, 100,000 civilians were dead. I suspect that many of them suffered horribly before they died.
I don't know what the population of Manila was, or how it compared with the population of various Japanese cities. I am convinced that many Japanese cities would have had very high civilian death tolls if an invasion had taken place. Obviously, large numbers of Japanese and Allied soldiers would have been killed also.
The only person who could have stopped this was the emperor, and if he were held by the military, he wouldn't have been in a position to stop it.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet
The young German boys and Japanese boys were like young people anywhere. No more fanatical than any other group of young people...
The problem is that the young Japanese were not making the decisions. The military high-ups were.
Moo
.
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I know this is just Wikipedia, but holy crap. Scroll down and read the section on the treatment of soldiers by Imperial Japanese Army officers in WW2.
The training of the Japanese officers was not designed to produce thoughtful compassionate men. Boys joined the army at the age of eleven; most of them came from poor peasant families, which means that they had had no exposure to culture at home. In the military academy, they were brutally treated, deprived of sleep, and seriously underfed. The Japanese army was the only one in the world where the officers were conspicuously shorter than the men they commanded. This was the result of malnutrition during adolescence.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The young German boys and Japanese boys were like young people anywhere. No more fanatical than any other group of young people, who are prepared to see the other side's boys as less than human. You can convince young people, unsure of themselves and, in late adolescence or early adulthood, that war will be fun and give them a band of brothers, closer than family. They will think about women and glasses of some other intoxicant, and they will readily kill.
.
So, combine this with the spirit crushing training procedures described in the wiki article, and the impossibility of refusing an order...
Yes.
Here's a link to the National Film Board of Canada's series on war. The first episode "Anyone's Son Will Do" has helped shape and form my thinking for 30 years.
I recall specifically the discussion of training of soldiers for Vietnam who marched while shouting "kill" with every left footfall, the lecture for marines of sending the enemy boys home in a doggie bag to their mommies and girl friends, and the various forms of behavioural conditioning.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The Battle for Manila (America killed far more Philippinos half a century before of course) was NOTHING compared with Okinawa: nearly a million casualties. Again Moo. So what? How high does any of that infinitely justifiable pragmatism AND moral high ground AGAINST unctuous armchair pacifists stand up against loving our enemies?
What advice would Jesus have given Truman? Keep Kyoto at the top of the May 10-11 Target Committee list?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I discussed Manila because it was very likely that the same kind of slaughter would have happened in many Japanese cities if the Allies has invaded. The refusal of the Japanese to evacuate civilians would have led to many deaths.
I am saying this to emphasize the fact that it was a great blessing that the attempt to kidnap the emperor failed
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Where you have them send the civilians? When the bombs are carpetting the land, and there is no safe place, generally people remain with their homes, what things they have, and hope for the best.
In the area of the Rhineland where the one family of cousins I still have live (all my French, and all my Dutch relatives were war killed in the two 20th century European wars). my cousin (born during WW2) toured me through the area when first I visited. Two things stick out. First, that he pointed out which houses had survived: . It was about 1 in 6, all the rest, "kaput" mostly with the families in them, well, older women and young children. The younger women were working the fields or small factories along with the older children. The grandmas and pre-8 years were in the houses. The little factories were also in the houses. Being in a field makes you a target. The second is all the perfectly round little ponds, which are bomb craters marking the lands between the villages in the area.
I have great trouble finding any form of high ground with war. People have to kill other people in war, and they do with whatever improved weapons they can get.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I discussed Manila because it was very likely that the same kind of slaughter would have happened in many Japanese cities if the Allies has invaded. The refusal of the Japanese to evacuate civilians would have led to many deaths.
I am saying this to emphasize the fact that it was a great blessing that the attempt to kidnap the emperor failed
Moo
Of course it is. But the coup attempt happened after the bomb. It was Hirohito's decision to aggressively wage peace that saved his country,
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Where you have them send the civilians? When the bombs are carpetting the land, and there is no safe place, generally people remain with their homes, what things they have, and hope for the best.
The Japanese would not allow the residents of Manila to leave. It is likely that many would have wanted to stay, and that some of those who would have left would have been killed in the refuge they went to. I suspect, however, that many deaths in the city were caused by lack of food and safe drinking water. Remember, the fighting lasted for a month. I assume the infrastructure was pretty well destroyed by the fighting.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The water in Manilla wasn't safe to drink before the war. Nor in most nearby countries. One task for household help was to boil the water and cool it. ASAIK water is still not particularly safe there.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Moo, I agree, the atomic bombings saved a hundred times as many casualties, no question. It was by far a utilitarian exercise as well as everything else (a warning to the Russians, science field work). Truman would have been wrong, INSANE, inhuman, INHUMANE not to do them. Even to annihilate the heart of Christian Japan.
That's not the point.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
That's not the point.
It's not your point. It is mine.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You can have it Moo. It's a point that was MINE for decades. Made here more than anyone for more than one.
So WHAT?
The reason why the casualties would have been a hundred times worse is because WE would have made them so. We, the good guys. The modern, progressive, liberal, Christian, democratic, humane, plural, humanitarian, open, utilitarian, rational West.
And we ALWAYS will won't we? We will ALWAYS delay His coming.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
The Japanese military refused to release control of the occupied countries, where people were dying of starvation at the rate of 100,000 a month.
The Japanese were responsible for that.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We MADE them. The way we MADE Saddam Hussein kill ONE MILLION of his country's children by besieging it for 10 years. No wonder Tony Blair went mad.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
The devil made me do it.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
LOL (true). You ole charmer Moo. Completely unmanned me.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
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Posted
I have been down this path at least once before on the Ship, but ...
I was four-and-a-half years old when the Second World War began. My parish has supported what was then the Church of England Mission to Papua New Guinea since its inception in 1891: our Sunday School pennies went to ‘our’ medical missionary.
When the Japanese invaded Papua New Guinea in 1942 among the many that they killed were more than three hundred Christian missionaries of all denominations – they did not spare even their German allies.
Sister May Hayman and Miss Mavis Parkinson, teacher, from our Mission and Hospital at Gona were captured, caged, and bayonetted.
Sister Margery Brenchley, and Miss Lilla Lashmar, teacher, the Reverend Henry Holland and Mr John Duffill, builder, were beheaded on the beach at Buna.
These are among the twelve whom we remember on 2 September each year as the New Guinea Martyrs. (2 September is also the date of the Japanese surrender in Tokyo Bay.)
We knew of their deaths almost immediately: ten of the twelve died in August 1942, and Canon Farnham Maynard delivered a sermon in their honour at St Peter’s, Eastern Hill, Melbourne, on 11 September 1942.
One could go on and on: the Alexandra Hospital Massacre in Singapore; the Banka Island Massacre; the sinking of the Australian Hospital Ship Centaur by a Japanese submarine off the coat of Queensland in 1944; the list is too sickening to elaborate.
Martin60 has referred to the Allies – I imagine sarcastically – as ‘the good guys’. Well, I don’t know about that – after all, ‘none is good, save one, that is, God’ – but I believe that we were the not-so-bad guys.
After the Japanese bombed Darwin, my grandfather, my father, his brother, and their five brothers-in-law all volunteered. My grandfather, who had served in the Boer War with the Royal Field Artillery, was posted to one of the prisoner of war camps at Murchison, about 160 kms (100 miles) north of Melbourne. His camp held the survivors of the German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran which sank the Australian light cruiser HMAS Sydney - with the loss of all 645 men- off the coast of Western Australia in 1941. The Japanese often killed captured Allied servicemen taken in the heat of battle – particularly pilots. These German prisoners of war, who had caused the greatest single loss that the Royal Australian Navy has ever suffered, were treated as conscientiously as any others. They were even allowed to build a memorial to Unseren gefallenen Kameraden [Our fallen Comrades] which still stands when almost all else of the camps has vanished.
When Italy capitulated in 1943 we were given the novelty of a half holiday: I remember walking home in the spring sunshine, delighted with the new word capitulation more than the Italian surrender.
We celebrated VE day wholeheartedly, but on VJ Day the celebrations were ecstatic: I still recall the roaring crowds in Melbourne that night.
I am grateful that President Truman chose to use the two atomic bombs. I regret that he did not see fit to use one of them to incinerate Hirohito and his top brass – all of whom should have been hanged.
And if they wanted an epitaph, I would suggest: For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind.
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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
Posts: 279 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Thank you and God bless you Laud-able.
You have seen 20 years of horror more than I and closer.
You prove my non-flesh-tearing point that we see ourselves as the good guys. That we are redeemed in, by our violence against the violent that we are complicit with. We created modern Japan. By force. On July 8, 1853. WE sowed the wind. WE reaped the whirlwind.
Christianity conquered the Roman empire with 300 years of non-violent subversion. And lost the next 1700.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
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Posted
Martin60,
I did not claim that we were the ‘good’ guys: I wrote that we were the ‘not-so-bad’ guys.
I do not know what you mean by redemptive violence. And in the battle to defeat Japan there was no time for ‘non-violent subversion’. I shared then – and still share – the view that if the life of only one Allied man or woman might be saved by devastating the enemy, that devastation was necessary.
I do not believe that the vile behaviour of the Japanese can be attributed to Commodore Perry’s ending of the isolation of Japan. One of Perry’s remits was to secure decent treatment of US castaways, a requirement written into the treaty that Perry effected in 1854. The Japanese fear/hatred/abuse of foreigners was at least as old as the 1590s and the Nagasaki Martyrs.
In August 1944 more than 1,100 Japanese prisoners of war attempted to escape from a POW camp near Cowra, about 300 kms (190 miles) west of Sydney in New South Wales. It was the largest prison escape of the Second World War. They killed four Australian soldiers, two of whom - Private Ben Hardy and Private Ralph Jones - were posthumously awarded the George Cross. 231 Japanese died: the rest were recaptured. Many of the dead Japanese had killed themselves or had been killed by fellow prisoners. The whole affair was suicidal madness: they weren’t going anywhere – they were marooned on the smallest continent (or the largest island) in the world.
I don’t know – or indeed much care to know – why the Japanese chose to behave as they did throughout the war. But they did what they did, and we loathed them for it, and we rejoiced in their destruction.
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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
Posts: 279 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I have read a book, Yokohama Burning, which argues that the extreme social disruption caused by the 1923 earthquake gave the military the opportunity to greatly enhance its power.
After the quake, martial law was declared in the affected areas, and the military enjoyed the power they were given at that time.
Japan's interest in conquest and its ruthless treatment of the local people were clear before 1900. Here is a *passage from Yokohama Burning which illustrates this. quote:
At the time of the earthquake, two hundred thousand Koreans lived in Japan, including about twelve thousand in the Tokyo-Yokohama area. Almost all of them were young men, and they were the most despised--and the most vulnerable--members of Japanese society. The Japanese had occupied Korea in 1895, after destroying the rival Chinese naval-fleet at the Yalu River dividing China from the Korean peninsula.... In the years since then Japan, the expanding empire, had tightened its stranglehold on the weak and undeveloped country, deposing the emperor, declaring Korea a protectorate in 1907, and annexing the peninsula three years later. The Japanese occupiers had forced Korean schools to teach Japanese, shut down all newspapers, seized private property, banned political activity, and jailed thousands of dissidents. Ferryboats overloaded with desperate Korean men crossed the Straits of Japan daily....Deprived of economic opportunity in their own country, the Koreans were willing to work cheap, which made them popular among contractors, but hated by Japanese laborers.
Of the twelve thousand Koreans in the earthquake area, four thousand were taken into protective custody. Most of the rest were massacred. The book gives the details of some massacres.
The Japanese conviction of their own ethnic superiority gave them the idea that they could treat people of other ethnicity with extreme savagery.
*Joshua Hammer:Yokohama Burning Free Press New York 2006. p.154
Moo
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Going back to the Middle East, some journos are reporting that heavy weapons are being sent to some rebel groups in Syria, provoking US anxiety that radical groups might advance, e.g. the Nusra Front. Turkey is also involved, reflecting their impatience with US indecision.
However, stories like this crop up every few months, and may be propaganda, or anti-Iranian rhetoric. I guess that many Christians still feel safer with Assad, those that have survived.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laud-able:
Martin60,
I did not claim that we were the ‘good’ guys: I wrote that we were the ‘not-so-bad’ guys.
Never said you did mate. Indeed you did.
I do not know what you mean by redemptive violence.
It's out there. Try Wikipedia. Especially the section on Triumph.
And in the battle to defeat Japan there was no time for ‘non-violent subversion’.
Aye, you can't have your cake and eat it.
I shared then – and still share – the view that if the life of only one Allied man or woman might be saved by devastating the enemy, that devastation was necessary.
So the nearly three million Japanese dead were worth the thirty million allied dead? Who was saved? Apart from all in Christ?
I do not believe that the vile behaviour of the Japanese can be attributed to Commodore Perry’s ending of the isolation of Japan. One of Perry’s remits was to secure decent treatment of US castaways, a requirement written into the treaty that Perry effected in 1854. The Japanese fear/hatred/abuse of foreigners was at least as old as the 1590s and the Nagasaki Martyrs.
Aye, just a piece of the redemptive violence jigsaw of western imperialism. Like the American genocide in the Philippines.
In August 1944 more than 1,100 Japanese prisoners of war attempted to escape from a POW camp near Cowra, about 300 kms (190 miles) west of Sydney in New South Wales. It was the largest prison escape of the Second World War. They killed four Australian soldiers, two of whom - Private Ben Hardy and Private Ralph Jones - were posthumously awarded the George Cross. 231 Japanese died: the rest were recaptured. Many of the dead Japanese had killed themselves or had been killed by fellow prisoners. The whole affair was suicidal madness: they weren’t going anywhere – they were marooned on the smallest continent (or the largest island) in the world.
Aye, that's redemptive violence for you.
I don’t know – or indeed much care to know – why the Japanese chose to behave as they did throughout the war. But they did what they did, and we loathed them for it, and we rejoiced in their destruction.
Two sides of the same redemptive violence coin.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
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Posted
Martin60:
Thank you for the pointer to Professor Walter Wink.
I read his paper Facing the Myth of Redemptive Violence in which he begins with the ‘psychodynamics’ [his word] of Popeye, Olive Oyl, and Bluto, and invokes the Babylonian creation stories as an element in his pronouncement that ‘What appears so innocuous in cartoons is, in fact, the mythic underpinnings of our violent society.’
Professor Wink appears to be among those who suffer from the curse of a literal mind. I am reminded of the 1936 Punch cartoon in which an elderly woman in a cinema, watching Disney’s Donald Duck and Pluto, says to her companion ‘I’m so afraid there’s cruelty in their training.’
Professor Wink also writes in The Powers That Be:
‘By turning the cheek, the servant makes it impossible for the master to use the backhand: his nose is in the way… The left cheek now offers a perfect target for a blow with the right fist; but only equals fought with fists, as we know from Jewish sources, and the last thing the master wishes to do is to establish this underling’s equality. This act of defiance renders the master incapable of asserting his dominance in this relationship … By turning the cheek, then, the “inferior” is saying, “I’m a human being, just like you. I refuse to be humiliated any longer. I am your equal. I won’t take it anymore.”’
If these words are meant as practical advice to be applied in all confrontations they are twaddle. Individual people may choose such a course of action, but at a national level it is sometimes necessary to destroy aggressors. Of course not all wars are just wars, but the implication that the Allies should have submitted to the Axis powers in the Second World War is not to be considered.
You and I shall never see eye-to-eye on this matter, but I thank you at least for making me aware of another -ism/-ist.
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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
Posts: 279 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You're welcome Laud-able. Nice rhetoric. The curse of the literal mind is a subtle one isn't it?
I agree - how can one not? - that in a system (I wonder what the Biblical metaphor for that is?) that creates Axis powers it is inevitable that the system will be compelled to destroy them. In its fear it knows nothing else. Like its apologists.
Come out of her my people.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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