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Source: (consider it) Thread: Kill the Christians
Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Well, to paraphrase Woody Allen, I guess being a Pharisee for the Left is OK.

"Pharisee for the left" is an oxymoron.
Your use of the phrase "oxymoron" clearly situates your comments within a hegemonic narrative of so-called "intelligence rankings", which serve the purpose of stigmatizing and marginalizing women, POCs, and numerous other non-priviilged identities. All decent people avoid this phrase, and I myself have never used it once. It says a lot about you that you would drop it so casually into a discussion.

[ 21. April 2015, 15:12: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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Stetson
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(^ Just in case you wondering what a "Pharisee Of The Left" would sound like. That was barely a parody.)

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Steve Langton
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by Kosmensky;
quote:
Sort of. We are not talking about a mystery here. IS are perfectly clear on why they do what they do—because of their religion. It would be possible (or rather, easy) to find some particularly barbaric passages in the Bible and argue that Christianity is, by the book, just as violent a religion. However, most Muslims do not take the Koran by the letter. Most Jews and Christians do not take the Bible literally either—ideas external to the Bible have taught us that killing everyone who is not a believer is a bad way to live. That kind of philosophical renaissance has yet to happen to Islam in the same way. 
I don't see it quite like that. Yes, IS are as they are because of their religion; I suspect they're often going further than Muhammad would have liked, but they are following a principle Muhammad clearly set down and which the Quran appears to support, that is the idea that there should be an 'Islamic state' with Sharia law etc. If that idea is accepted, the idea of spreading and defending the religion by force and having Inquisitions/Crusades/Jihads/etc is more or less inevitable and also not easy to limit.

In Christianity we aren't looking at a holy book written in the lifetime of a single prophet, but at a history going back some 2000 years+ before Jesus and clearly developing during that time. As I read it that history starts with God taking the ancestors of the people of Israel and gradually teaching them – a process which culminates in Jesus fulfilling the teaching by his life, death and resurrection and the formation of the 'Church' of his followers throughout the world.

Much of the OT is indeed violent precisely because it takes a long time to build up the teaching among sinful and reluctant people even when they are God's chosen people, and they've got to be kept alive and fairly coherent till the thing is complete. So yes, you can find some rough passages in the OT. And yes, there's some rough stuff in Revelation as well – a really caring God is not going to let evil win but for some of the really determined bad guys playing nice may just not stop them; though having said that it's also clear that a lot in Revelation is symbolic, and for example despite the wishes of some Americans the 'weapon of mass destruction' at Armageddon is not nukes but the 'sword' out of Jesus' mouth, ie., the Word of God....

But the way the Church is set up it is clearly not meant to be a 'kingdom of the world'. Peter in his first epistle clearly expects Christians to be far from domineering over everybody in worldly terms, Paul talks of how our warfare is not with physical weapons, and so forth. Crucially being a Christian is not about being born in a 'Christian country' but about being 'born again' spiritually through faith. A government may try to say, as the Roman Emperor Theodosius did, that everyone in their territory is a Christian (or else....), but that's not God's way! Instead the Church is all the people who are born again throughout the world and whose primary allegiance is to Jesus as Lord, not to some petty local king/emperor/prime minister/etc.

On that basis we Christians only spread our message by peaceful persuasion, we don't kill or otherwise persecute people for disagreeing with us, and if it comes to it we risk a martyr's death rather than even defending ourselves – as per the example of early Christians such as St George, who was far from the military saint we commonly portray; on the contrary he was a soldier who gave up violence to join, instead of persecuting, a then pacifist movement.

It is not therefore 'ideas external to the Bible ' that have taught us that ' killing everyone who is not a believer is a bad way to live '. On the contrary, that actually IS the teaching of the NT, the teaching the OT leads up to. It was only centuries later that well-meaning but misguided people like the afore-mentioned Theodosius sought to have 'Christian countries' in which violence would be used on behalf of the faith; and nowadays we're gradually getting back to the original idea.

I'd love to believe in your 'philosophical renaissance' in Islam; but I don't see how it is to happen when Muhammad realistically went deliberately backwards from the Christian teaching in the NT....

(taking the Bible literally or not is a different issue – and if I'm right on how to read the history, doesn't actually affect the point that Christianity was from the start intended to be peaceable)

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
(^ Just in case you wondering what a "Pharisee Of The Left" would sound like. That was barely a parody.)

Here is a real life example.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:

On that basis we Christians only spread our message by peaceful persuasion, we don't kill or otherwise persecute people for disagreeing with us, and if it comes to it we risk a martyr's death rather than even defending ourselves – as per the example of early Christians such as St George, who was far from the military saint we commonly portray; on the contrary he was a soldier who gave up violence to join, instead of persecuting, a then pacifist movement.

It is not therefore 'ideas external to the Bible ' that have taught us that ' killing everyone who is not a believer is a bad way to live '. On the contrary, that actually IS the teaching of the NT, the teaching the OT leads up to. It was only centuries later that well-meaning but misguided people like the afore-mentioned Theodosius sought to have 'Christian countries' in which violence would be used on behalf of the faith; and nowadays we're gradually getting back to the original idea.

Yabber yabber yabber. There you go again, asserting that your interpretation is right and everyone else is wrong.

Of course, the corollary is that plenty of sensible and earnest Christians have searched the scriptures and concluded you are wrong. Why should anyone listen to you?

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arse

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Gwai
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yabber yabber yabber. There you go again, asserting that your interpretation is right and everyone else is wrong.

When you start saying someone else is yabbering, you might want to ask yourself whether you are getting anything out of the discussion or should perhaps step away from it. Presuming you do want to continue arguing, please find a less insulting way to disagree.

Gwai,
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
(^ Just in case you wondering what a "Pharisee Of The Left" would sound like. That was barely a parody.)

Here is a real life example.
I can see the writer's point, if "indie" is being applied in such a way that always(even if not systemically) excludes non-whites.

It would be pretty pharisaic, though, to automatically jump down the throat of anyone using the word however innocently in intent, especially if the subtext is publically congratulating your own self on never using it.

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Martin60
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So what are YOU prepared to do Matt Black? About innocent people being massacred right in front of you? And Beeswax Altar, I'd like to hear of your plan for using the SAS against IS, the biggest, most powerful, richest terrorist organization on Earth. Two man snatch squads or 8 man patrols? Against at least 50,000. Many of the SAS are of course Christians. And how does that serve British national interests? Let alone Jesus'?

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Love wins

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Steve Langton
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by mr cheesy;
quote:
Of course, the corollary is that plenty of sensible and earnest Christians have searched the scriptures and concluded you are wrong. Why should anyone listen to you?
Still waiting for them to actually DEMONSTRATE that I'm wrong - and I've been waiting a long time now..... The 'conclusion' tends to be not that I'm wrong but that they don't like what my interpretation implies so they just rubbish it. Not so much that the Bible says I'm wrong, more that the critics want to say "Oh but surely God can't really want that, surely he must want our version...."

Look for instance at Alan Cresswell pleading that surely it's better to have Christians wielding 'the sword' rather than the godless - regardless of what the scriptures actually say, regardless even of Jesus the Son of God himself saying that phrase about those who take the sword perishing by it. Not an actual scripture interpretation in sight from Alan, just human (self-serving) rationalising.

Stop yabbering about the 'plenty of people' who've just blindly followed what 'plenty of people' say - YOU do some scripture interpretation to prove me wrong.

And BTW have you considered the implications if I'm wrong? The implication that the NT actually teaches a Christianity all too much like IS and that it's not the word of God but the later ideas of us wonderful modern humans who have come up with a better idea...?

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mr cheesy
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As per the sensible suggestion by Gwai, I'm cooling off, Steve. If you wish to discuss it further, I'd be happy to continue the conversation in another place.

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arse

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Martin60
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What are you going to do Matt Black about the massacre of trafficked refugees in the Mediterranean? Indeed what are you doing? Because you can't be sitting idly by. As that's happening right in front of you, you must be doing something about it. Surely? More than sitting idly by. What is it that you're doing that I might follow?

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Love wins

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Steve Langton
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Yes, sorry, I got a little heated as well. I feel strongly about this because of the thread topic, that my fellow-Christians are getting killed and otherwise persecuted and if Kosmensky were right in suggesting that early Christianity was warlike similarly to IS, then IS have the excuse/rationale of their persecution and we just have to hope that they will follow Christians in eventually changing.

Whereas if the view I'm upholding (and it's not just mine, even if it's uncommon on the Ship!) is correct then Christianity was initially peaceable and the warlikeness of Christians a later aberration, which has considerable implications for how we sort this out. Yes, it means that we owe Muslims something like an apology that Christians in the centuries just before Muhammad were not setting a good example. But it also means that we have the possibility of going to Muslims with the message that Jesus - their prophet 'Isa' - had, and he and his disciples taught, a way to be a peaceable people of God in the world rather than becoming a coercive militarist faith like Muhammad's Islam. Not a later revisionism that doesn't take our scriptures seriously, and therefore would not be taken seriously by Muslims, but a way actually taught in our scriptures even if some later Christians have tragically seen fit to ignore it.

I've recently watched an appearance by that Mr Cameron at a Christian event of some kind, where he said very insistently that Britain is 'a Christian country'. That is, a 'Christian country', so proclaimed by its elected head of government, with armies currently in some Muslim lands. A 'Christian country' with a monarch simultaneously head of its military forces AND of its national established Christian church. Is it any wonder that groups like IS and Al Quaeda interpret British actions as a continuation of the Crusades? And in turn, treat native-born middle-eastern Christians as a 'fifth column' to be rooted out as supporters of the 'Crusaders'?

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

If they're sick fuckers, we're no better.

Ah, the old moral equivalence fallacy.

Today, it's "we're just as bad as the Islamofascists".

During the Cold War, it was "we're just as bad as the communists".

During WWII, it was "we're just as bad as the Nazis" (see C.S. Lewis's The Dangers Of National Repentance).

Plus ca change....

It is not pharisaical to conclude that there are lesser and greater evils, and it is far less likely to produce moral passivity, indifference and inactivity.

Pre-war Poland's pervasive anti-Semitism was never a reason to conclude that the struggle against Nazi Germany, with its far worse anti-Semitism, was somehow unjustified.

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Martin60
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What, you cannot think how fighting fire with much more might not be justified? Or that turning the other cheek might be?

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Ah, the old moral equivalence fallacy.

It is not a fallacy. And I don't like the way you brazenly suggest a whole bunch of things about me that I don't believe here.

quote:
Today, it's "we're just as bad as the Islamofascists".
Explain to me, for a start, how flying drones into innocent homes is not morally equivalent to cutting people's heads off on a beach. Go on, name some differences which makes them worse than us.

quote:
During the Cold War, it was "we're just as bad as the communists".
See, there were a whole load of people who called themselves Communists. Who is the 'we' and the 'Communinist' in this example?

If you are talking about the Eastern bloc, clearly there was a lack of freedom which was not experienced in the West. But it is hard to show that the West was somehow less blood-thirsty than the Eastern bloc given all the conflicts, regime changes, war-making, dictator-supporting shit we've been doing.

Maybe we were not as bad. But that doesn't let us off the hook, we did a lot of bad stuff.

quote:
During WWII, it was "we're just as bad as the Nazis" (see C.S. Lewis's The Dangers Of National Repentance).

Plus ca change....

In the early 20 century, the Nazi regime and their sympathisers perpectuated genocide. Clearly the Allies did not. 'We' were therefore not as bad.

However, we did a lot of bad shit, during the war and elsewhere in the world where we tended to treat other people as pawns in our geopolitical war machine. If you take into account the stuff we got involved in from the Transatlantic Slave Trade period until the end of the British Empire, it is a hard thing to argue that there is much difference between our behaviour and that of the Nazis other than geography and scale.

quote:
It is not pharisaical to conclude that there are lesser and greater evils, and it is far less likely to produce moral passivity, indifference and inactivity.
I never said it was.

quote:
Pre-war Poland's pervasive anti-Semitism was never a reason to conclude that the struggle against Nazi Germany, with its far worse anti-Semitism, was somehow unjustified.
I never claimed that either.

Although it is worth repeating that WW2 was never about anti-Semitism, protecting the Jews and other European minorities or preventing the holocaust. In fact, the way treat those fleeing persecution now is horribly reminiscent of the way we turned away fleeing Jews to their certain death in the 1930s.

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arse

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Barnabas62
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Steve Langton

Not "Kosmensky". "Komensky". It's inadvertent, on your part, of course. But we generally treat Shipname misuse as a discourtesy. Purg Guideline 5.

Also, please, please, avoid re-opening Constantinianism and its distortions of "true" Christianity on this thread - and therefore making it more about your opinions than the topic under discussion. You can be sure that the regular participants (and Hosts) know what you think and why.

I just don't want to see another thread derailed.

Barnabas62
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Matt Black

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So what are YOU prepared to do Matt Black? About innocent people being massacred right in front of you?

I've already indicated what I want to see happen - ground troops in Iraq plus support for the Peshmerga. I've also said not ideal and will cause its own problems and unintended consequences. But this is a humanitarian emergency so desperate times call for desperate measures.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Steve Langton
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First, Sorry Komensky; it was inadvertent but I should have been more careful.

Barnabas62;
Sorry in a slightly different sense but I don't see how it can be 'derailing' this thread to point out that 'killing the Christians' is both an expression of Islam's own version of 'Constantinianism', which is a great deal more 'built into' Islam than the Christian version, and also a reaction by Muslims to horrendous past and too much still present-day 'Constantinianism' in so-called 'Christian countries'. Useful discussion of this topic requires people to face up to that aspect.

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quetzalcoatl
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Ground troops in Iraq? OMG. Does this mean that similar should happen, say in Congo, where approx. 4 million have died in various militia attacks?

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Matt Black

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In an ideal world, yes. As should have been done in Rwanda.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Komensky
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
[snip]
Much of the OT is indeed violent precisely because it takes a long time to build up the teaching among sinful and reluctant people even when they are God's chosen people, and they've got to be kept alive and fairly coherent till the thing is complete. So yes, you can find some rough passages in the OT. And yes, there's some rough stuff in Revelation as well – a really caring God is not going to let evil win but for some of the really determined bad guys playing nice may just not stop them; though having said that it's also clear that a lot in Revelation is symbolic, and for example despite the wishes of some Americans the 'weapon of mass destruction' at Armageddon is not nukes but the 'sword' out of Jesus' mouth, ie., the Word of God....


I see. So God's efforts to 'build up the teaching' for these poor souls that he made in his image is to offer great advice like: kill disobedient children, if you find a village that worships another god, kill all of them; if you find that your bride is not a virgin on your wedding night, kill her; if you conquer a people as commanded by God, kill the survivors—including children—and take the young virgins as sex slaves; and on and on.

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
But the way the Church is set up it is clearly not meant to be a 'kingdom of the world'. Peter in his first epistle clearly expects Christians to be far from domineering over everybody in worldly terms, Paul talks of how our warfare is not with physical weapons, and so forth. Crucially being a Christian is not about being born in a 'Christian country' but about being 'born again' spiritually through faith.


'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.' If that is not about domination, then I don't know what is.

But we digress… 

K.

[ 22. April 2015, 10:09: Message edited by: Komensky ]

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Steve Langton
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by Komensky;
quote:
'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.' If that is not about domination, then I don't know what is.
Absolutely! In the end every knee will indeed bow before God, every tongue acknowledge him. After all God is the ultimate truth of the universe and rejecting him is living harmfully against the grain of the universe.

Indeed Philippians 2v10-11 tells us that

quote:
...at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,...and that every tongue should confess to the glory of God that Jesus Christ is Lord
Which makes it all the more striking, I suggest, that Jesus and the apostles following him advocate a peaceable way of advancing his kingdom on earth, in absolute contrast to Muhammad's gathering of armies to establish his Islamic state. And that peaceable way involves clear separation from the state by an international/transnational/something-like-that church body which, again unlike Islam, is supposed to use only spiritual weapons.

I agree that going into the OT situation on this thread would be a considerable digression; though I do see your point and understand that it needs more answer than I'm giving here - but as I see it, the NT situation is very relevant to Christians in dealing with the present state of the world.

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Gamaliel
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Of course the NT is very relevant to the way Christians respond and interact with the contemporary world.

The problem is, and I don't wish to raise issues from already derailed threads, you haven't so far demonstrated how we were to do this - other than disestablishing the CofE and distancing ourselves in some way from Western culture - as perceived by Muslims and others - and the Western geopolitical construct ...

I have some sympathy - I don't like Cameron making the claims you've cited nor do I like an overt connection between Christianity and Western foreign policy and all that it entails - drones and regime-change and so on and so forth.

That's not to play the 'moral equivalence' card - I think there is a case to answer in all of those respects.

I don't think anyone here would claim that Christianity was initially 'war-like' - and, to be honest, I don't think that Christianity is particularly war-like today - except, perhaps, when it is at its most Erastian.

As for apologising to Muslims for mistakes and excesses in the past - well, that's been done plenty of times. I believe I'm right in thinking that various Popes have apologised for the Crusades, for instance.

I agree it doesn't help that Islamists and others perceive the West as some kind of infidel Christian enemy ... and, yes, I'm happy to acknowledge that Western foreign policy has been a major contributory factor towards that. However, I also believe it's naive to suggest that by disentangling church/state ties and opting out of the military or other aspects of government and so on that we would somehow create a platform for a change of hearts and minds.

Look at it this way, suppose a bunch of jihadists or some other extreme group seized control of a peaceful Mennonite community in the US, say - and said that they would start killing the inhabitants one by one until the US met its demands.

What would be an appropriate response?

Of course, negotiation would be the favoured one - an attempt to end the siege without bloodshed.

But what if the jihadists started murdering people, innocent people, women and children ...

Would the authorities be acting responsibly if they sat by and watched the massacre take place. 'Oh, it's all right, these Mennonites are pacifists and don't approve of violence. They were all born-again and going to heaven anyway so it doesn't matter that they were killed ...'

[Confused]

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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
First, Sorry Komensky; it was inadvertent but I should have been more careful.

Barnabas62;
Sorry in a slightly different sense but I don't see how it can be 'derailing' this thread to point out that 'killing the Christians' is both an expression of Islam's own version of 'Constantinianism', which is a great deal more 'built into' Islam than the Christian version, and also a reaction by Muslims to horrendous past and too much still present-day 'Constantinianism' in so-called 'Christian countries'. Useful discussion of this topic requires people to face up to that aspect.

Admin Tiara On
If you want to argue about a hosting ruling, then you do it in the Styx, not on the thread.

As far as I can see any issue, according to you, requires us to face up to Constantinianism. It appears to be your stock answer to any question.

There's a fine line between having a specialist subject and being a crusader. Don't cross it.
Admin Tiara Off

Tubbs

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Gamaliel
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Granted that there are certainly grave issues with Erastianism and what Steve calls 'Constantinianism', does he seriously believe, though, that extremists like IS would desist from their ravages and rampages if Christianity as a whole were to divest itself of every last vestige of 'Constantinianism'?

Christendom is crumbling, we are entering a post-Christendom, post-Christian future. Yet, for all that, there are still vestiges of Christendom in our culture and we way we approach things. I'm not talking about government here, necessarily - but things like values, cultural mores, the influence of Christian thought on the arts, literature, etc etc.

Sure, these things are becoming diluted, but they're still there and will be for some considerable time to come, I suspect.

I think that's a positive thing.

What are we supposed to do? White-wash all the frescoes in medieval Italian churches? Put all the Annunciations, the Adorations of the Magi, the images of crucifixion and resurrection from all the art galleries in Western Europe and the US into storage somewhere so as to give the impression that we aren't into 'Christendom' any more?

[Roll Eyes]

I'm not saying that the concept of Christendom is holding back radical jihadis and the like. Far from it. But all ISIS would do if confronted with nice, peaceful Anabaptist-style Christians is behead them, cut their throats or take their daughters into sex slavery - same as they have done with the Yazidis who - as as far as I'm aware - don't have any connection to Christendom whatsoever.

Anyhow, that's going over old ground ...

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mr cheesy
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I'm not sure it is entirely fair to Steve to continue talking about something we've been asked to stop talking about.

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arse

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Martin60
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How many British ground troops are you prepared to watch be burned alive Matt Black?

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Matt Black

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Fewer than Christians you're prepared to watch being beheaded, I suspect, Martin.

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Gwai
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# 11076

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I'm going to give it the benefit of the doubt and presume Gamaliel cross-posted with Tubbs.

One assumes it will be left alone now by all parties.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
How many British ground troops are you prepared to watch be burned alive Matt Black?

Also, how many people are we prepared to see killed by British troops? In some areas, IS seem to be embedded into local tribes, so a general attack on those areas could be very bloody, and could also spark a Sunni uprising.

This is the trouble with 'one more time', it often produces blowback. I believe the various intelligence services which carried out the coup, which installed the Shah in Iran, thought that they had found a lasting solution. Well, in one sense yes.

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Matt Black

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So, to turn the questionm back around, how many Christians and Yazidis are you and Martin prepared to see beheaded?

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
So, to turn the questionm back around, how many Christians and Yazidis are you and Martin prepared to see beheaded?

For myself...

Let X = the number of Christians and Yazidis who will be beheaded in the absence of western intervention.

I am prepared to see X, whatever it may turn out to be. But that's because I believe that further western intervention will only make things worse, and will not result in a net preservation of human life in the long run.

[ 22. April 2015, 14:44: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
How many British ground troops are you prepared to watch be burned alive Matt Black?

Also, how many people are we prepared to see killed by British troops? In some areas, IS seem to be embedded into local tribes, so a general attack on those areas could be very bloody, and could also spark a Sunni uprising.

This is the trouble with 'one more time', it often produces blowback. I believe the various intelligence services which carried out the coup, which installed the Shah in Iran, thought that they had found a lasting solution. Well, in one sense yes.

I thought that the coup was more to do with reducing Nazi influence than it had to do with any long-term plan.
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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
How many British ground troops are you prepared to watch be burned alive Matt Black?

Also, how many people are we prepared to see killed by British troops? In some areas, IS seem to be embedded into local tribes, so a general attack on those areas could be very bloody, and could also spark a Sunni uprising.

This is the trouble with 'one more time', it often produces blowback. I believe the various intelligence services which carried out the coup, which installed the Shah in Iran, thought that they had found a lasting solution. Well, in one sense yes.

I thought that the coup was more to do with reducing Nazi influence than it had to do with any long-term plan.
I assumed Qu. was talking about the 1953 coup. Obviously, Nazis in the Iranian government would not have been a big concern by then.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
So, to turn the questionm back around, how many Christians and Yazidis are you and Martin prepared to see beheaded?

That seems to argue that military intervention will reduce that number. I am not convinced, since arguably the first invasion of Iraq led to both AQ and then IS, and however many deaths, is it 200, 000? I would have thought that current strategy militarily, i.e. helping the Kurds and others against IS, and helping with political negotiations, for example, with the tribes siding with IS, will be less bloody.

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So what are YOU prepared to do Matt Black? About innocent people being massacred right in front of you?

I've already indicated what I want to see happen - ground troops in Iraq plus support for the Peshmerga. I've also said not ideal and will cause its own problems and unintended consequences. But this is a humanitarian emergency so desperate times call for desperate measures.
That was pretty much our strategy in Afghanistan in 2001. Remind me how that worked out?

At the moment our position seems to be that we support Sunni fundamentalists against the Shia in Yemen and Shia fundamentalists against the Sunni in Iraq. As a strategy of divide and rule that has some merit. as a strategy for humanitarian outcomes or the development of civil society in the Middle East it would appear to have some obvious flaws.

Boots on the ground questions:

  • What are our immediate strategic objectives
  • What do we do if we cannot achieve them at the outset?
  • How long are we prepared to stay?
  • What casualties are we prepared to accept, whether or not we achieve our strategic objectives?
  • What is our exit strategy?
  • Can we be sure we will not be obliged to return to the theatre of conflict after we have left?

If someone offers a salient answer to that little lot, I may dial down my objections to a long standing commitment to intervene militarily in the Middle East, but failing that keeping out sounds like a good idea. Oh one more question:

  • If it turns out that we cannot turn the tide, are we prepared to accept refugees from the failed states or do we regard them as 'cockroaches'?


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Martin60
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I've only ever seen one beheading, and that was Ken Biggley's thrust in front of me by a traumatized colleague at work after it had just happened.

I'm not prepared to see any more. Ken Biggley died for war I approved of at the time. As did the Assyrian baby who was cooked and served on a bed of rice to its parents. As were the Christians murdered on live TV as an American armoured unit looked down. While the women screamed for help in English. In full eye contact.

NEVER in my name EVER again.

Let alone Jesus'

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Love wins

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
How many British ground troops are you prepared to watch be burned alive Matt Black?

Also, how many people are we prepared to see killed by British troops? In some areas, IS seem to be embedded into local tribes, so a general attack on those areas could be very bloody, and could also spark a Sunni uprising.

This is the trouble with 'one more time', it often produces blowback. I believe the various intelligence services which carried out the coup, which installed the Shah in Iran, thought that they had found a lasting solution. Well, in one sense yes.

I thought that the coup was more to do with reducing Nazi influence than it had to do with any long-term plan.
I assumed Qu. was talking about the 1953 coup. Obviously, Nazis in the Iranian government would not have been a big concern by then.
He made reference to the coup which installed Mohammed Reza Shah, which happened in 1941 with Reza Shah's forced/encouraged abdication after the UK and USSR incursions into Iran, and which involved several intelligence agencies. The 1953 coup against Mossadegh was a CIA special.
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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
How many British ground troops are you prepared to watch be burned alive Matt Black?

Also, how many people are we prepared to see killed by British troops? In some areas, IS seem to be embedded into local tribes, so a general attack on those areas could be very bloody, and could also spark a Sunni uprising.

This is the trouble with 'one more time', it often produces blowback. I believe the various intelligence services which carried out the coup, which installed the Shah in Iran, thought that they had found a lasting solution. Well, in one sense yes.

I thought that the coup was more to do with reducing Nazi influence than it had to do with any long-term plan.
I assumed Qu. was talking about the 1953 coup. Obviously, Nazis in the Iranian government would not have been a big concern by then.
He made reference to the coup which installed Mohammed Reza Shah, which happened in 1941 with Reza Shah's forced/encouraged abdication after the UK and USSR incursions into Iran, and which involved several intelligence agencies. The 1953 coup against Mossadegh was a CIA special.
I stand corrected. Thanks.

For the record, though, was the 1953 coup really a "CIA special"? My understanding has always been that the British were up to their necks in that, even if, on paper, Operation Ajax was strictly CIA.

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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, I meant 1953, and I also thought that the Brits were well involved. I was also being ironic about a long term plan - it guaranteed anti-Americanism for a couple of generations.

[ 22. April 2015, 19:32: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I meant 1953, and I also thought that the Brits were well involved. I was also being ironic about a long term plan - it guaranteed anti-Americanism for a couple of generations.

I think the confusion might have come about because you said that the coup had "installed the Shah", whereas(if I understand wiki correctly) Mohammed Reza Shah was installed in the 1941 coup. The 1953 coup strengthened his powers, after deposing the prime minister.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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quetzalcoatl
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Good points, Stetson, cheers.

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Enoch
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While a wily Shah would have wanted to make sure the CIA wouldn't oppose him, I'm sure that by 1953 he was quite capable of staging a coup in his own favour on his own.

After that, he remained in power for a further 25 years. So it's hardly reasonable to hold the CIA responsible for each and every failing he may have exhibited. And compared with what happened after he'd gone, there will have been a lot of people then and since who would regard him as the lesser evil.

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Enoch
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Second post

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I've already indicated what I want to see happen - ground troops in Iraq plus support for the Peshmerga. I've also said not ideal and will cause its own problems and unintended consequences. But this is a humanitarian emergency so desperate times call for desperate measures.

Are you sure? I think I agree with you about supporting the Peshmerga, even though the Turks may not like it. But western ground troops strikes me as something-must-be-done-ism in spades.

As I've already said, it doesn't meet the 'serious prospects of success' test. A lot of the present ghastliness in the Middle East traces directly back to the last time western governments put ground troops into Iraq.

It's become another example of the maxim that no politician, whether British, Russian or American has any excuse for claiming not to know,
"Don't go to war against the Afghans, because the Afghans alway win".

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Martin60
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So what's the calculus Matt Black? How many Christians and Yazidis must die before I should add my voice to yours, Andrew White's, Justin Welby's and Jorge Bergoglio's for more of our good-guys just war? It's our good-guys just war that got them in to this for a hundred years and it's more of our good-guys just war that will save them? We just don't do war right? Justly enough. We don't do it early enough and enough enough? We're not good-guys enough. Do I need to overcompensate for having been not in to good-guys just war any more? To catch up? Just one more good-guys just war. Is that all that's needed? To stop bad war? Just one more little total good-guys just war? I mustn't let roast toddlers stop me?

Do I need to repent of repenting of warmongering? Repent of peace? Of standing idly by? Of appeasement? Of supine cowardice? Of walking on by on the other side when women are being raped in the street?

I'll add my voice when Jesus does. When He turns His back on peace. When He gives up on that. Let me know.

[ 22. April 2015, 22:01: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I meant 1953, and I also thought that the Brits were well involved. I was also being ironic about a long term plan - it guaranteed anti-Americanism for a couple of generations.

I must rely on memory on the CIA/UK split on this, as it was about ten years ago when I read up on this--- I may have been overly influenced by the bio of the Roosevelt family member who was one of the principals. However, Quetzalcoatl and others are quite correct in that the 1953 coup certainly fed a very strong strain of anti-American sentiments, even among my Persian monarchist acquaintances.

[ 22. April 2015, 22:34: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:


I'll add my voice when Jesus does. When He turns His back on peace. When He gives up on that. Let me know.

Martin, this is a horrible point to make in debate. I mean, really, this is the best you've got?

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arse

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Matt Black

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Seconded. I think I'm about done here.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Doc Tor
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# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:


I'll add my voice when Jesus does. When He turns His back on peace. When He gives up on that. Let me know.

Martin, this is a horrible point to make in debate. I mean, really, this is the best you've got?
I imagine it probably is his best. And you know what? If it makes one sabre-rattler think twice about pretending that sending young men and women with guns and bombs into an already bloody situation is going to make it better, it's a point well worth making.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I imagine it probably is his best. And you know what? If it makes one sabre-rattler think twice about pretending that sending young men and women with guns and bombs into an already bloody situation is going to make it better, it's a point well worth making.

I agree with you and Martin that war is ridiculous. See my contributions above.

But if we're going to end up with arguments which appeal to whether or not Jesus would change his mind, then we've got nowhere lower to go.

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arse

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