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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The soul of Britain
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
Where do you think Britain is at when it comes to her spiritual condition?
If Russia can have a soul (according to the great Russian writers), why can't Britain be said to have one too?
Is it time for another 'Pentecost-style' Christian revival so that the country can heal? Why is the orthodoxy in some circles that there will only be one final great awakening before the end of the world? (Or else that there will be a falling away)?
Or do the revivalists need to revive (and repent) themselves?
[ 24. May 2015, 08:43: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Interesting topic, but would it be possible to narrow it down a bit, or at least clarify some of the terms? For example...
quote:
Is it time for another 'Pentecost-style' Christian revival so that the country can heal?
You seem to be assuming that the country DOES need to heal. What do you think exactly is wrong with the country that it requires healing?
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
One more thing...
quote:
If Russia can have a soul (according to the great Russian writers)
I haven't read a lot of the writers I think you're referencing, but, as a rule, I'd be careful about taking national self-characterizations at face value. Especially when they're coming from writers and artists, and ESPECIALLY writers and artists of a mystical-nationalist bent.
In any event, well, isn't it one of the alleged characteristics of Brits that they are mildly cynical about religion, especially the state-sponsored Anglican variety? I've read this officially in a George Orwell essay, and it's also something I've kinda gleaned from my numerous interactions with British people, including right here on the Ship.
If that's true, the idea of a national "soul", even if does have some merit apart from self-aggrandizing Russian histrionics, might not make an entirely smooth transition to the UK.
[ 24. May 2015, 10:08: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
By the "great Russian writers" I take it that you aren't referencing contemporary Russia. If you mean Tolstoy or Chechov then there has been a revolution, decades of Soviet Communism and a break-up of the Russian empire in the interim. If Russia had a soul in the 19th century, then that has been significantly altered since then. Or, maybe not since 19th Century Russia instigated a war to gain control of the Crimea, and 21st Century Russia has some form of hand in Ukrainian politics which has resulted in control of the Crimea ...
I think, basically, I want to know what the soul of a country would look like.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Interesting topic, but would it be possible to narrow it down a bit, or at least clarify some of the terms? For example...
quote:
Is it time for another 'Pentecost-style' Christian revival so that the country can heal?
You seem to be assuming that the country DOES need to heal. What do you think exactly is wrong with the country that it requires healing?
Hi, yes, I'm coming at the subject from a Pentecostal background and a position that the country does need a Christian revival (and that this would make things better for most people (although there would be socio-economic repercussions for some trades if it ever did happen again)).
So, yes, I do think that Britain needs to heal in many ways, and that this healing should take the form of a revival in Christianity.
The 'Russian soul' writers did rather manufacture the 'soul' personification but it was embraced by many Russians and I think can be a helpful idea. I think it is a shame sometimes that Britain does not seem to be allowed the same 'enigma' status given to Russia (I hold nothing against the Russian people by the way).
I'm not a great patriot, but I do profoundly believe that the best thing for people in this country is for a spiritual awakening (to change the metaphor). Whether that will occur again is another matter.
With regards to the healing aspect - it is my understanding that one of Christ's more liberal policies was that people are 'sick' and require healing from God. So I do adhere to the same world-view in this area.
The first Pentecost was supposed to be a mini-revival in Israel, a kind of birthday for the Church (there's another personification for you). It would be nice to see such a revival in this country, but I understand many of the objections (often, incidentally, by trades and groups who feel threatened by the idea of an increase in the number of Christians).
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
In my experience revivalists tend to 'read back' their own concerns and assumptions into accounts of past revivals and don't engage with the primary and historical texts as closely as they ought.
Consequently they come up with wildly romanticised impressions of past revivals were like and a rather simplistic approach towards the historical, cultural and social conditions in which these things took place.
There can be as much romanticism involved as ever there was with notions of 'Holy Russia'.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
In my experience revivalists tend to 'read back' their own concerns and assumptions into accounts of past revivals and don't engage with the primary and historical texts as closely as they ought.
Consequently they come up with wildly romanticised impressions of past revivals were like and a rather simplistic approach towards the historical, cultural and social conditions in which these things took place.
There can be as much romanticism involved as ever there was with notions of 'Holy Russia'.
But how can any of us know that unless we have experienced life in a revival? Which most of this generation have not.
I imagine (simplistically) that it would be like Christmas - a huge build up and maybe an anti-climax but still an all-encompassing and exciting event which is hard to understand when it is not occurring.
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
A massive family argument, 15 pairs of socks and an ill-fitting pullover? "Lord, we wanted revival not a collection of bad cracker jokes!". "But, I thought you wanted the soul of Britain ... that is bad jokes"
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Revial is to me one of those 'by their fruit you will know them' things.
So if people are turning to God, then good. But if the hungry are not being fed, the sick having their wounds bandaged, those in Jail visited etc. then I don't see a revival.
If there is not Love God AND Love your neighbour as yourself I can't see a revival. Anything that aims at one and not the other is aiming in the wrong direction.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Where do you think Britain is at when it comes to her spiritual condition?
If Russia can have a soul (according to the great Russian writers), why can't Britain be said to have one too?
Is it time for another 'Pentecost-style' Christian revival so that the country can heal?
Were the Russian writers talking about religious faith when they referred to the 'Russian soul'? I'm not acquainted with Russian literature, unfortunately, but I think poets and novelists tend to be referring to something a bit different when they talk about the national 'soul'.
Re Pentecostalism, you'll find few practising Pentecostals here, so there won't be much agreement that we need a 'Pentecostal-style Christian revival'!
However, there are Anglican and other mainstream clergy who claim to welcome Pentecostal spirituality in their local communities, particularly in parts of large multicultural cities or conurbations where the Pentecostals in question are usually black, or Asian. Without them, the rate of Christian decline would be greater.
IMO race, despite being an awkward topic, would have to be addressed if Pentecostalism were to be a vehicle for a Christian revival in the UK. The largest and also the fastest growing Pentecostal denominations here are black majority churches, but increasing racial, social and class segregation in the UK could make it harder for a Christian revival (Pentecostal or otherwise) to move from one community to another.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
Do states constructed through the concentratiom of power into one particular corner/set of interest groups have a "soul" in any meaningful sense?
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
It would be nice to see such a revival in this country, but I understand many of the objections (often, incidentally, by trades and groups who feel threatened by the idea of an increase in the number of Christians).
What are these objections, and can you link to examples of "trades" objecting to a revival?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Mother Russia is referred to in the arts as a person, and as a person has a soul. I am nor sure that Britain has been referred to in that way. So the analogy with Russia having a soul and Britain having a soul actually works in any way.
But if we are to see a revival in the part of the UK I live in we have to go back a long, long way. So ignoring Wales and the Outer Hebrides foe a moment, where there have been revival, we have to go right back to the time of the Wesleys and Whitefield. Then there was a turning to God in a way that would be understood by American pentecostals, but also a turning to God hat caused people to open orphanages that were more humane than those around (Though I'll be th first to admit not particularly humane by today's standards.
I would expect a UK revival, if we have one, even after all this time, to include far more of a social aspect of the Gospel, noting the disagreement between Billy Graham and John Stott in the twentyth Century as to whether social action was part of the Gospel.
The UK is socially different to the USA, both within and without the churches, and I would expect a UK revival to be different to the Azusa Street revival in the USA a century ago.
A revival does not have to be as dramatic as Azusa Street, Wales or Lewis. If it comes in gently it is just as much a revival.
A gentle breeze can be just as effective as a mighty wind.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
There have been revivals in various places in the UK. There was one here around 60-70 years ago, and the effects can still be seen in the near-blasphemous attitudes of some of those who were "saved" at the time towards those who weren't. We need more of that like we need a hole in the head. Genuine movement of the Holy Spirit? Yes, with fear and trembling I do pray for that. What passes for "revival" in these parts? No thanks.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
First, define revival.
I could post at length on this topic. I have done so in the past. I grew up in South Wales when there were still people around whose parents had been converted during the 1904/05 revival.
I'm not knocking it. All I am saying us that revival or no revival you've still got to get up and go out to work, you've still got to wash your socks, you've still got to go to the loo.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
All I am saying us that revival or no revival you've still got to get up and go out to work, you've still got to wash your socks, you've still got to go to the loo.
No! Really?
Can't you sing choruses while washing your socks, or read the Bible on the loo?
You're going to accuse me of being too 'literal' here, but I really don't know what you're going on about.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Regarding going to work, revivalism often spread because converts share their enthusiasm with work colleagues as well as with family and friends. A bit more difficult to do nowadays, admittedly, as workplaces are more worried about giving offence to employees of various religions.
I've heard it said that new converts often think they have to leave their trades and become preachers and clergymen, so perhaps this is what you're getting at?
[ 24. May 2015, 14:26: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Revial is to me one of those 'by their fruit you will know them' things.
So if people are turning to God, then good. But if the hungry are not being fed, the sick having their wounds bandaged, those in Jail visited etc. then I don't see a revival.
If there is not Love God AND Love your neighbour as yourself I can't see a revival. Anything that aims at one and not the other is aiming in the wrong direction.
@ Gamaliel
I would suggest that the above is a pretty good definition of 'revival'.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
Brittania?
It's a very interesting question. The "character" of a country is partly related to its landscape and climate, but it's also got more subtleties than that. And "national character" is probably not exactly equated to "soul".
The question of what is the soul of a country as opposed to its historical makeup - takes a bit of unravelling. I have been talking about this with some German friends, and we came to agreeing that the presence of Queen (i.e. a crowned monarch) is a powerful symbolic role which - if it is used for good - has some substantial spiritual clout.
And it could be said that the monarchy is in a dual position in the historical national character which both fawns to and disrespects authority in more or less equal measure. How does that translate into our spiritual behaviour? Maybe it accounts for us being both religious and atheist... Does respect (or lack of respect) for mundane authority somehow translate into a particular response to divine authority?
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Googling a relevant Orwell quote, I only had to type as far as "old maids b" to get "old maids bicycling to holy communion" showing up second from the top in the search box. So, apparently, it's a not-unpopular search.
The full phrase ends with "...through the morning mist". Seems it was quoted by John Major, I'm guessing as part of his "Back To Basics" campaign.
I've always been a little dubious about that image as representative of the national character. I suspect you could have seen old maids bicycling to Holy Communion in most Christian majority countries in those days.
[ 24. May 2015, 15:13: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
George Bernard Shaw (or Lord Mancroft?) — 'The English are not a very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity. '
I don't think it would be possible to say what the soul of Britain would look like. Too confused a mish-mash of ethnic identities and races spread out over too long a period of history. Eg, the soul of the Anglo-Saxon might well have differed from the soul of the Anglo-Norman; the Plantagenet from the Tudor. The Pict from the Celt, Welsh from Scottish etc.
But, fwiw, I always imagined that the essential spirituality - or soul-life - of the English was Pagan with useful Christian accretions depending on historical accident, political ambition and taste in ecclesiastical architecture.
And for the Irish, perhaps, pantheistic, or even panentheistic, with some sincere attempts at incorporating various Western-based ideas of Christianity, because of a national tendancy towards hospitality, feelings of guilt, and a long memory.
I think this is why the Northern Irish protestants are perhaps a bit confused in the expression of their soul-spirituality. They're legalistic and insecure enough to want to commit quite blindly to the idea that a Holy Book can tell them what to do, think and say, quite literally on every occasion. But rebellious and unsettled enough to know that there's something inherently wrong with this. It would certainly explain the expression on most of the faces of our Unionist politicians.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, the idea of a British soul is a nonsense, ditto an essential spirituality. You can't distil so many people, localities, traditions, sub-cultures, into a single brew, nor should you try to. In fact, you could call that a true dislocation and alienation. Truth is concrete (V. Lenin).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, you are being overly literal, SvitlanaV2.
What I'm alluding to is the tendency within many revivalist traditions and circles to give the impression that what happens in church and in meetings/services is the only thing that really counts ...
Of course, revivalists stress that real-life continues but there is often otherworldly tendency in such circles as those of us who have spent any time within such settings will be able to identify.
That's not to say that people aren't involved in the sort of activities that Polly has drawn our attention to ...
Meanwhile - you are right to point out that not many Shipmates come from Pentecostal backgrounds - that is old-time 'traditional' Pentecostal denominations or the black-led Afro-Caribbean ones.
However, a good few of us here have spent time in 'neo-Pentecostal' or other revivalist settings, so we can bring a degree of first-hand experience to bear. I also have in-laws from South Walian working class Pentecostal backgrounds.
I know the tradition pretty well - good sides, bad sides and indifferent.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, the idea of a British soul is a nonsense, ditto an essential spirituality. You can't distil so many people, localities, traditions, sub-cultures, into a single brew, nor should you try to. In fact, you could call that a true dislocation and alienation.
This.
quote:
Truth is concrete (V. Lenin).
Ah! This explains their architectural style.
[ 24. May 2015, 16:43: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
FWIW I think there are some savvy Pentecostal historians and commentators around these days - the movement has 'come of age' and you'll find a handful of academic historians / sociologists with Pentecostal backgrounds who have done a great deal to shed light on the early history of the movement - and to recast some of the hagiographies and so on.
On the whole, though, there is a tendency - I put it no stronger than that - for popular Pentecostalism to approach the issue of revival and revivalism through a set of assumptions and presuppositions and without examining the context of the original accounts.
For my money, the best and most balanced comments I've heard on revival came at a conference on the subject at King's College, London in 2002.
There were contributions from Baptists, Pentecostals, new-church people, Anglicans -- and a good balance between academic input and contributors who were pastors / leaders etc.
Some of the papers were later published in a book edited by Andrew Walker and Kirsten Aune:
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/On_Revival.html?id=_EGnAQAACAAJ&hl=en
Generally, I find that Pentecostals and charismatics will tend to exaggerate the numbers involved in past revivals and overlook comments and data that don't support their pre-suppositions.
They aren't the only ones to do this, of course. All Christian traditions it seems to me engage in forms of selective reading and cherry-picking.
For instance, it's long been recognised that early Methodist commentators exaggerated the parlous spiritual state of 18th century England to make their own achievements the more impressive.
Large as the numbers involved in the Wesleyan and Whitefield revivals were, they were still a small proportion of the population as a whole.
Even in those instances where a considerable proportion of the population were involved the numbers were pretty small by modern standards.
During the 'awakening' at Northampton, Massachusetts with Jonathan Edwards and so on, the numbers involved were no more than a few dozen out of a population of no more than 400 - 450 or so.
Numbers in Britain were larger, of course - and in some areas constituted a considerable proportion of the population - but the pattern wasn't consistent.
Equally, it's often overlooked how most converts during the revivals of the 18th to early 20th centuries were already 'lukewarm' or nominal Christians who had been steeped in a general awareness of Christianity from birth.
That can no longer be assumed now.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Gamaliel
I think you need to be wary of the Northants figures. The situation is more complex.
Johnathon Edwards had very high standards for proclaiming a conversion. Less than a dozen converts might fit totally well with a packed church given the circumstance. The test of conversion was that you were accepted into full membership by the congregation and almost certainly required behavioural change.
Secondly and equally important, Edwards was actually fired by his congregation for his stance on membership. He was upholding a high standard where his predecessor (grandfather) had been more lax. There, therefore, is good reason for people to want to play down the numbers as well as up.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I pretty much agree with Gamaliel on the topic of revival, but I'd like to pick up on this: quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Do states constructed through the concentratiom of power into one particular corner/set of interest groups have a "soul" in any meaningful sense?
I have a great book on territorial spirits, great not least because it is a mere 63 pages long.
It has this to say about the City (starting with the biblical concept thereof) and "structural powers": quote:
A city (or a company or an institution) is created by, and lives through, the corporate decisions of men and women... there eventually comes into being a corporate spirit that embodies the character or personality of the organisation and gives it its individuality... this... becomes a created reality in its own right... In 100 years time none of the present inhabitants of London will be alive, but London will be alive and well...
(Tom Marshall, Principalities and Powers; seems to have been republished under another name since, fuller quote here)
I certainly don't go for the C. Peter Wagneresque version of territorial spirits and related warfare, but I think there might be something worth considering in Marshall's thinking.
Institutions and their ways of doing things certainly seem to endure beyond the lifetimes of those that make them up.
And institutional change is perhaps one of the most enduring features of a genuine revival.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Two points.
Yes, Andrew Walked et. al. knew what they were talking about; the Religious Studies Dept. at King's London was the place to be at that time (but I have to confess that I'm biased, having studied there ...).
And, thinking of "converts" among "Christians" - I think we must emphasise the "re-" in "revival" - i.e. the awakening of people who already possess some faith and religious knowledge. cf the story of William Haslam. Indeed even Pentecost could be seen in these terms, God's life coming to Jewish believers; the later "Gentile Pentecosts" less so.
Bringing the Gospel to people with no previous background is a different matter, both harder but occasionally easier.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I pretty much agree with Gamaliel on the topic of revival, but I'd like to pick up on this: quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Do states constructed through the concentratiom of power into one particular corner/set of interest groups have a "soul" in any meaningful sense?
I have a great book on territorial spirits, great not least because it is a mere 63 pages long.
@ Eutychus
There are some who want to distinguish between the spirit and soul. I'm not so sure I want to add clearly defined lines between the two.
What I am interested in the point you are making is that I do consider places/establishments/organisations/communities etc to have a spiritual identity or a soul of their own. At least that is how I am reading your comments.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I'm inclined to think that Exile is a better model than Revival - and may be a more necessary precursor to some spiritual awakening than any kind of hyperbole over some localised effects. But then you can probably get that from my sig.
Not that I'm knocking localised effects BTW. "Send revival, start with me" as one of Matt Redman's songs put it. One person "getting" good news is a cause of rejoicing, both in heaven and on earth.
But as an evangelist of my acquaintance (a self-aware one obviously) put it. "Revival? An evangelist's dream, a pastor's nightmare!"
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
The idea of the Russian soul I think was based in the belief that Russian Orthodoxy, especially in its popular practice, was a peculiarly spiritual and authentic form of Christianity. (I'm not sure Chekov went in for talk of the Russian soul, at least not without irony. Dostoyevsky went on about it all the time.)
I don't really think that Britain has an equivalent.
[ 24. May 2015, 19:19: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Fair points, Jengie - but you have illustrated the tenor of what I was trying to say - revivalists tend to overlook context and detail.
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Also, the numbers thing has to handled carefully in all contexts. Both Wesley and Whitefield tended to exaggerate the size of the crowds who gathered to hear them - and it's always difficult to estimate the size of crowds. There were also lots of other things going on religiously that weren't necessarily revivalist in nature. There were already 40 'religious societies' in London when Wesley established his first on Fetter Lane.
I've seen old film footage of Anglo-Catholic processions in London with hundreds of people taking part - not just troops of boy scouts and other uniformed groups. Of course, not everyone attended church or chapel but there was a general awareness of these things that only persists in migrant communities here today.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, you are being overly literal, SvitlanaV2.
What I'm alluding to is the tendency within many revivalist traditions and circles to give the impression that what happens in church and in meetings/services is the only thing that really counts ...
Of course, revivalists stress that real-life continues but there is often otherworldly tendency in such circles as those of us who have spent any time within such settings will be able to identify.
That's not to say that people aren't involved in the sort of activities that Polly has drawn our attention to ...
Meanwhile - you are right to point out that not many Shipmates come from Pentecostal backgrounds - that is old-time 'traditional' Pentecostal denominations or the black-led Afro-Caribbean ones.
However, a good few of us here have spent time in 'neo-Pentecostal' or other revivalist settings, so we can bring a degree of first-hand experience to bear. I also have in-laws from South Walian working class Pentecostal backgrounds.
I know the tradition pretty well - good sides, bad sides and indifferent.
I wonder if this other-worldliness is a particular problem in British rather than global revivalism. For most people in the world, losing interest in the every day and just focusing on heaven is a luxury they couldn't afford. Black Pentecostals tend to be less dualistic, and the African ones especially do seem to be quite at ease with worldly success.
My grandparents, born and raised in the Tropics, were separately re-baptised into a very new and rapidly expanding Pentecostal movement when they were young adults in the 1920s. It didn't turn them into otherworldly, impractical people. Indeed, their productivity and their participation in the rough and tumble of normal life were far more obvious to me in their lives than in my own! Their doctrines were always of great importance to them, but I never got the impression from them that church life was mainly what mattered. (But their denomination was probably rather theologically different from the ones you joined.)
It's also been said that the popularity of Pentecostalism in Latin America is frequently due to the fact that it helps straying men re-engage with their families, rather than any tendency to make them withdraw from the problems of everyday normal life.
Conversely, my own 'first-hand experience' suggests that the historical denominations tend to emphasise a cerebral approach to faith which in some senses could also be read as rather otherworldly - despite their concern for social justice, and such things. This approach is frequently a world away from meeting the spiritual needs of many working class people around the globe.
Still, you and I may agree that a revival of CofE niceness would be closer to the 'soul' of our own great nation than any sort of Pentecostal revival! More achievable too, I expect.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Is it time for another 'Pentecost-style' Christian revival so that the country can heal?
What would this revival actually look like? Two reasons give me pause.
Firstly, as Gamaliel has pointed out amply above the evidence of past. Similarly, the actual evidence from the 'present day revivals' that are touted in charismatic circles are similarly mixed in terms of actual outcome, with the stories touted about them in charismatic circles to be extremely simplistic at best, and outright lies and exaggerations at worst (see Eutychus' past posts on healing alleged by Bethel and others).
This is even before one looks into the personal practices of leading figures in such movements and find out what a strange lot they really are.
I think a hope, and a longing for something better comes naturally, and is easily diverted into try to immanetize the eschaton.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Hi, yes, I'm coming at the subject from a Pentecostal background and a position that the country does need a Christian revival (and that this would make things better for most people (although there would be socio-economic repercussions for some trades if it ever did happen again)).
[As a tangent, I'd be interested in finding out what you believe the socio-economic repercussions would be]
quote:
So, yes, I do think that Britain needs to heal in many ways, and that this healing should take the form of a revival in Christianity.
Which past revivals do you feel best exemplify what you are talking about?
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Svitlana - arguably the Roman Catholic Church is the least cerebral of the mainstream denominations in the UK at least, and has a tradition of mysticism (albeit mostly associated with religious orders). It has also historically been associated with working class people and immigrants.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pulsator Organorum Ineptus
Shipmate
# 2515
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Posted
The idea of a country having a soul seems to be just a quasi-religious way of dressing up nationalism.
Avoid!
Posts: 695 | From: Bronteland | Registered: Mar 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I'm wondering if it's being used in the same way as some Christians would use the term "saving souls" for converting individuals to the Christian faith. So, could revival be considered "saving the soul of a nation"? Something more than just the sum of the "souls" of the individuals converted.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
South Walian Pentecostals tended to be practical people too. You have missed my point, SvitlanaV2.
And no, I am not calling for a 'revival of CofE niceness' either. I'd be very tempted not to be nice to you if you continue to make those sorts of comments. But hey ...
I would also argue that the emphasis on prosperity and worldly wealth within certain African and other groups is itself highly dualistic because it's generally based on the manipulation or application of right techniques and beliefs in order to bring it about.
On balance, though, I would consider white working class Pentecostalism and the traditional black-led Pentecostal and Holiness churches to be more 'rootsy' and 'authentic' than HTB style middle-class charismaticism.
So, please don't misunderstand me. I also agree that there is still a raw, working class element within the RCs in the UK but the mileage varies
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Svitlana - arguably the Roman Catholic Church is the least cerebral of the mainstream denominations in the UK at least, and has a tradition of mysticism (albeit mostly associated with religious orders). It has also historically been associated with working class people and immigrants.
I admit, I was thinking of the Protestant mainstream churches, and also the CofE (for those who don't see it as essentially Protestant).
Perhaps I forgot the RCC as I somehow don't see the interesting possibilities of how it might possess, the 'soul' of Britain. There are more RCs than there are Pentecostals, but the discourse around Catholicism is one of problems and crisis management, which isn't the case for Pentecostalism.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I will admit that it's hard to see how the RCC could capture the 'soul of Britain', and certain areas would strongly contest such an idea! I was more commenting on the cerebral nature of mainstream denominations - I don't think you're wrong on that count, though obviously it varies amongst denominations.
To put the initial question another way, which places capture the soul of Britain? What are the holy places of Britain? I think that's one's guide to the soul of Britain.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Gamaliel
I think the point about black Pentecostalism being less dualistic is that it makes less of a division between soul and body; the religious community is meant to serve both equally. And it's not a question of church life being more important than daily life, because daily life is felt to be diffused with spirituality. Washing socks and going to work (thoroughly non-literal examples, of course!) aren't seen as inconvenient intrusions upon the spiritual life.
But if your point is simply that Pentecostals are more interested in heaven than, say, Methodists than I could hardly disagree. (Although I also think there are differences of emphasis between Methodists from different cultural backgrounds.)
TBH, I wouldn't mind a revival of Methodist (or even CofE) 'niceness', if that meant attracting the seekers and the bewildered into inspiring and nurturing communities of love. Niceness as a euphemism for conflict-avoidance and superficiality isn't great, but I was getting at a warm religious 'ordinaryness' that might be easier for the British to engage with than the Pentecostal other-worldliness that some people may find inappropriate. Otherwise, what's left? Which Christian institution or movement gets closest to representing the British 'soul'? Which institution(s) could adopt that position in our culture?
[ 24. May 2015, 23:33: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Black Pentecostals tend to be less dualistic, and the African ones especially do seem to be quite at ease with worldly success.
OTOH such circles have issues when success doesn't automatically follow, selective monism doesn't really cure dualism, it just displaces it elsewhere.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I've been handed "success" tracts by white, brown and black Christians. So tough to see the common denominator here...
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
When a majority of the population or even a substantial minority of a country doesn't identify as religious, does the behavior of a religious minority qualify as a "national soul"?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
To put the initial question another way, which places capture the soul of Britain? What are the holy places of Britain? I think that's one's guide to the soul of Britain.
I would say that if we were to consider the concept of "soul of Britain" to be useful then this would be a good place to start. I would also add in events as well as places.
I think for a lot of people the "holy places" wouldn't be associated with any religion. I would say that "holy places" would include:
- The countryside. Specific examples would include the wild places of our National Parks - the Lake District, the moors of Yorkshire and the SW, Snowdonia, the Scottish Highlands. Also, gentler places like the Cotswolds or Broads.
- Sporting venues. Wimbledon, Lords, Wembley, Old Trafford, Hambden ...
- Cultural heritage. Things like the Tower of London, Natural History Museum, Edinburgh Castle ... Also music, film and the like: Beatles and Stones, various bands from Manchester ... ; films like Zulu, The Italian Job (the original with Michael "you were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off" Caine), Carry On ...; TV like Dr Who, Only Fools and Horses ...
I also mentioned events. What do we commemorate, generally recognise as foundaitonal to our character? - Several events in the last war; the London Blitz, Dunkirk, Battle of Britain ...
- Other historic battles: Hastings, Rourkes Drift, Culloden ...
[i]The General Strike, Suffragettes ...
And, you may have noticed there's nothing specifically religious in there. That's because I don't think religion is a substantive element in the "soul of Britain". Maybe that's what revival would do, put religion (Christianity, or part thereof) back into the soul of the nation. Though if that means becoming a "Christian Nation" the way some right wing elements in the US would want their country personally I'd prefer things the way they are.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Fair points, Jengie - but you have illustrated the tenor of what I was trying to say - revivalists tend to overlook context and detail.
I often wonder if it is a kind of importing into Christianity what Campolo referred to as 'The Success Fantasy". The numbers game is I guess a way of measuring that kind of 'success'. Not sure it's got a lot to do with the commission to make disciples. Learning how to follow Christ may start with a single step, but it's a long job, both for individuals and Christian communities.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I refer y'all back to the comments from Tom Marshall I quoted above. I don't know about soul, but "corporate personality" is a term actually widely used (as indeed, is "company spirit").
To Alan's list one might add the Royal Albert Hall, described as "England's village hall" (and, it turns out, inscribed with Bible verses round the cupola). In the emerging days of the house church movement a meeting was held there at which one leader said "we've invited you to the Albert Hall tonight because we couldn't fit you all in our front room".
I'm not sure such places can be redeemed as souls can, but they carry a resonance that seems to go beyond the sum of the parts.
One might also jump the pond and consider the twin towers. Bin Laden well understood that their destruction had a hugely symbolic (one might indeed say spiritual) value over and above the loss of life and property. Could it not be legitimately said to be a blow struck against the soul of the nation?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
To Alan's list one might add the Royal Albert Hall, described as "England's village hall"
I had thought about putting in the Proms, Last Night in particular. But, I wanted more of an illustrative idea than a comprehensive list (probably attempting such a list would be worthy of a thread on it's own, in Heaven).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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