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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
We heard wonderful churches about the churches that had been "touched" by the East African Revival, both in Congo and Rwanda. Yet many of those same Christians became involved in terrible acts of violence and genocide.

People have heard that the Revival was "broad, but not deep". Was there a lack of follow-up teaching on practical aspects of the Christian faith? Was it "too spiritual for its own good"? Was is just frothy and superficial? I don't know, but something clearly went wrong, and parts of the human condition were not touched by it.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, which is one of the reasons why I think that revivalist hagiography is overblown.

Yes, revivals can and do have an impact on individuals and societies but there have to be other factors in place too - religious emotion will get you only so far.

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Originally posted by Alyosha:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, which is one of the reasons why I think that revivalist hagiography is overblown.

Yes, revivals can and do have an impact on individuals and societies but there have to be other factors in place too - religious emotion will get you only so far.

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But how do you know that? Few people in this generation have experienced a revival.

It's like saying 'Christmas is crap. It makes people think of dead relatives (and never ever experiencing an Xmas)'.

That's true, but there are other parts of Christmas which are kind of nice. At least I admit to not knowing what a revival would be like. I simply believe that it would make things better.

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Originally posted by MrsBeaky:

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Originally posted by Alyosha:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, which is one of the reasons why I think that revivalist hagiography is overblown.

Yes, revivals can and do have an impact on individuals and societies but there have to be other factors in place too - religious emotion will get you only so far.

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But how do you know that? Few people in this generation have experienced a revival.

It's like saying 'Christmas is crap. It makes people think of dead relatives (and never ever experiencing an Xmas)'.

That's true, but there are other parts of Christmas which are kind of nice. At least I admit to not knowing what a revival would be like. I simply believe that it would make things better.

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Following on from what I said up-thread about the current stories here in Kenya about revival type situations, the other day I listened to someone explaining why the reported miracle signs, which have now suffered some kind of relapse were still revival as we were now in a time of intense spiritual warfare.....

I too would like to see things made better in communities all around the world and I too would welcome the work of the Holy Spirit in many, many situations but the types of cognitive dissonance which I've encountered make me very wary and slightly depressed by some of these stories.

I long for honesty and integrity in our story-telling- when that happens perhaps there is the chance for transformation to begin in our lives.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
How do I know that, Alyosha?

Because I've read plenty of revival accounts - and not just the popular hagiographical ones.

Because I've visited Gypsy churches in Spain which came about through a revival / people movement.

Because I grew up in South Wales where everyone was banging on about how wonderful the Welsh Revival was all the time - and so decided to investigate and look more closely - whereupon I found that ... lo an behold, there was good stuff and bad stuff going on at one and the same time.

Because I am realistic enough to recognise that there are upsides and downsides to revival as there is with anything else - whether it's marriage, employment or any other condition.

That doesn't mean that I am 'dissing' revival nor saying that it's unnecessary or unwarranted.

No, far from it ...

All I'm saying is that many revivalists operate with a very fuzzy idea of what these things entail - and they have no real historical perspective - nor even a proper theological perspective very often ...

It isn't a case of having to 'live through' or 'experience' a revival to be able to comment on these things.

Sure, I've heard recorded testimonies of people who lived through the Hebridean revival, for instance, who were almost euphoric about it - a special spiritual atmosphere, a general awareness of the presence of God - etc etc.

Wonderful.

I'm not knocking any of that.

But we don't spend our lives blissed out in some kind of glory cloud. I've been married for over 20 years now and it's bloomin' hard work at times ... it's not some kind of euphoric state 24/7.

Same with revivals - they aren't some kind of state of suspended animation where everything is wonderful and hunkydory. People still die. People still stub their toes or get toothace or constipation, they still have to get up and go out to work, they still have to wash their socks, when they go to the lavatory they still have to use toilet paper to wipe their backsides ...

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Both/and not either/or ...


It isn't simply that you have an overly romanticised view, you also seem to have an overly pietistic view as to how people's behaviour changes as a result of revival or bouts of religious enthusiasm.

There is no magic bullet.

Effecting change takes hard work.

I'm not expecting to make any real difference on the town council unless I stick with it for some considerable time. I don't have a magic wand. Neither has anyone else.

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Originally posted by Alyosha:
Absolutely. But you are probably one of the few people here to even get near to any kind of revival. Are there any benefits from it? Is it all as bogus as people fear?

Africa is far more deserving of a genuine revival than the Europe. If the stories you are hearing are fake then maybe you are right and maybe everyone else is right - that a revival will make things worse. That seems to be the main issue with it. But we have fake stories in this 'decline' (look at 'Taming the Tiger' and some other similar stories).

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Originally posted by Alyosha:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Both/and not either/or ...


It isn't simply that you have an overly romanticised view, you also seem to have an overly pietistic view as to how people's behaviour changes as a result of revival or bouts of religious enthusiasm.

There is no magic bullet.

Effecting change takes hard work.

I'm not expecting to make any real difference on the town council unless I stick with it for some considerable time. I don't have a magic wand. Neither has anyone else.

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Well I hear that council prayers are still allowed despite some opposition to them? Maybe you can use them somehow?

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Originally posted by MrsBeaky:

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Originally posted by Alyosha:
Absolutely. But you are probably one of the few people here to even get near to any kind of revival. Are there any benefits from it? Is it all as bogus as people fear?

Africa is far more deserving of a genuine revival than the Europe. If the stories you are hearing are fake then maybe you are right and maybe everyone else is right - that a revival will make things worse. That seems to be the main issue with it. But we have fake stories in this 'decline' (look at 'Taming the Tiger' and some other similar stories).

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There are no short answers to the questions you raise, Alyosha
One of the huge drivers here in Kenya is money, the pursuit of money is written in as a way of life. My Kenyan friends will tell you that when you live somewhere where you can't trust the people in authority to use public funds for the good of everyone (and we're talking basic access to healthcare, education and food security here) then you have to go looking for the money elsewhere. In addition to normal people looking to care for their families, we then have the complicating factor of ridiculous material aspirations.
Enter the church from the wings. Money can be a driver there too and one way of encouraging the donation of money is by making people happy with stories of how their money, handed over for the cause of the gospel is reaping a harvest. I can tell you of countless "commitments to the Lord" and stories of signs and wonders at evangelistic events here in our town. But no-one really seems to follow these people up to see how their lives have changed. Then there are the stories like the one I mentioned up-thread. If and when (and I would like this to happen, I really would) I find a story I can verify I will let you know.
This is not just happening here in Kenya or in the wider African continent, this is an issue in the hearts of humanity everywhere. As is the whole story-telling to build our own egos thing. Most of my work here is with the poorest and most marginalised people in society and for some of them these stories and rumours bring hope that things will change, maybe the Spirit of God will do something for them. I often sit and weep when I hear them say these things.
But all is not lost as there are also wonderful people here who are working for no personal gain to transform the lives of people in their communities. If I am honest the signs and wonders aspects seemed linked to the wealthy churches with wealthy pastors and little or no transparency. Many Kenyan Christians are very realistic about it all.
Then there are the stories which I can verify of the people who lost loved ones in the post-election violence of 2008 and who have done the hard work of forgiveness and are now working to help resolve community based conflict to ensure such a thing never happens again. One friend of ours here was incarcerated for making a stand against corrupt practices which were impacting the lives of local people. He lives and breathes Micah 6 v8. When he speaks, people listen and lives are changed.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Aloysha - you say you're not pietistic then come out with pietistic suggestions such as introducing prayers before town council meetings ...



As it happens, a fair number of people on the town council have some kind of church background.

By no means all of them, of course.

They are also happy to support various faith-based initiatives - and I can think of several here that they have supported in some way.

You don't need a 'revival' for that to happen ... it happens as part of the general course of things.

If there were a 'revival' then the general process of government wouldn't stop or be disrupted in any way. What makes you think that it would?

In what way did the government of the UK change as a result of the 18th century revivals? It didn't.

In what way did local or regional government/politics change in the wake of the Welsh Revival? I can't see how it had any impact on those aspects whatsoever - if anything the whole thing was pietistic and otherworldly. They used to discourage people from playing sport on a weekend for goodness sake ...



Check your facts. Check your history. Check and revise your theology.

You have got completely the wrong end of the stick.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:


You are adding dualism to your pietism.

What has the Government to do with God?

Everything has to do with God ...

Making pious, dualistic distinctions between these things doesn't get us anywhere ...

I don't see how the Bideford thing has anything to do with whatever I do or don't do or get involved in with our town council here.

If I want to pray for our town council, I can do so in the comfort of my own home or in church on a Sunday. I don't need to press the council to have prayers before each session.

Does that mean that I don't have anything to do with God either?



While I'm at it - can you, as a revivalist, point to ANY piece of legislation over the last 300 or 400 years here in the UK that has had anything to do with revivalism - or pressure from pietistic / revivalist Christians?

You'd be hard pressed to find anything.

Sure, the Salvation Army's revivalism in parts of London's East End and up in the North East had an effect on those involved - men turning from strong drink and rowdiness and becoming exemplary husbands and fathers etc.

I don't doubt that.

Nor do I doubt the very real impact that Booth and the Salvation Army had - alongside other agencies - in addresses social issues in late 19th century Britain.

Nor do I dismiss the impact of people of faith like Dr Barnado or Lord Shaftesbury - the latter introduced some of the most far-reaching legislation this country has seen in terms of improving working conditions -- but he was no revivalist.

Yes, of course I'd like to see more people turning to Christ. Yes, there are 'benefits' that would flow from that into wider society as a whole ... but what I'm saying is that this isn't always the corollary of revival or revivalism.

Point me to one single act of Parliament or piece of legislation, for instance, that has been brought about by religious revival.

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Originally posted by Alyosha:
It seems to me that you're doing absolutely everything you can do and are a much better person than myself (because I would be terrified in that situation). In resisting the prosperity gospel I would suggest that you are much closer to Christ than the wealthy preachers.

I don't know what to say. I wish you every success. Don't give up.

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Originally posted by Alyosha:
Town council prayers were just put into law because of the Bideford town council overturning. The National Secular Society opposed the whole thing but in the end the Government decided to retain them (simply because they look good and don't cost anything).

If the Government are completely unaffected by a nation-wide revival then I put it to you that that is because Government has very little to do with God.

So why does the Government infer that God is with them in their decisions? Because that is always their subtext.

Meanwhile, who is with the people? Not the Government, that's for sure. Thankfully God still cares for us.

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Originally posted by L'organist:
.....My own offspring ... spent a lot of time looking at Islam in what we used to call 'Civics' - the emphasis being on how one needs to wary of causing offence to adherents of the Prophet. They actually spent very little time at all 'doing' Christianity - and that was in a CofE school....

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Originally posted by Albertus:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
.....My own offspring ... spent a lot of time looking at Islam in what we used to call 'Civics' - the emphasis being on how one needs to wary of causing offence to adherents of the Prophet. They actually spent very little time at all 'doing' Christianity - and that was in a CofE school....

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Perhaps if people were scared that we might blow them up, we might get more attention.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

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Originally posted by Albertus:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
.....My own offspring ... spent a lot of time looking at Islam in what we used to call 'Civics' - the emphasis being on how one needs to wary of causing offence to adherents of the Prophet. They actually spent very little time at all 'doing' Christianity - and that was in a CofE school....

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Perhaps if people were scared that we might blow them up, we might get more attention.

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Actually, I read somewhere that the number of Westerners becoming Muslims increased after 9/11. This is because they started to read about Islam and ask questions about it, the better to understand what was going on. Some of the answers the enquirers received were obviously more positive than negative.

I often wonder if Islam will have an influence on the 'soul of Britain' in the future. Certainly, the assumption that whiteness and Christianity will easily represent the national identity well into the next century is likely to be increasingly problematic.

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