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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why doesn't prayer work?
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If children should be taught as much as possible about everything, they should certainly be taught how to pray. They should be given every opportunity to find God for themselves. This might mean that they are not taught that God will be at their beck and call to fulfil their every desire.
Practically impossible. How is the state school system supposed to teach children about all the varieties of religious experience and practice without unduly giving support to one over all the others.
This kind of thing sounds to me like special pleading: the state schools should teach my religion as standard (but I'll campaign against the Moonies, etc getting a chance).
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arse
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If children should be taught as much as possible about everything, they should certainly be taught how to pray.<snip>
To whom? To which of the thousands of gods? Maybe they draw straws at the start of each term?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
The philosopher Feyerabend used to argue that children should be taught astrology and rain-dancing. I think he was making the point that there was no correct type of knowledge, and that it was rather arbitrary, as to which we selected. It sounds a bit tongue in cheek also.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Does God intervene directly in our lives and temporarily suspend the laws of nature in our favour when we ask him to do so? This is the question at the heart of the matter. If the answer is 'no', the consequences are not necessarily that 1) there is no God or 2) prayer is useless. I find serious moral problems that result as a consequence of answering 'yes' to the question at the start of this paragraph.
I can imagine that some would answer the question with 'sometimes', but still leaves a rather ugly problem with theodicy. That answer can also take us back to the problem of 'abuse', where the unsuccessful petitioners are left to soak in blame.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Practically impossible. How is the state school system supposed to teach children about all the varieties of religious experience and practice without unduly giving support to one over all the others.
Well, good Religious Education departments managed in England until the Tories marginalised the subject.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If children should be taught as much as possible about everything, they should certainly be taught how to pray.<snip>
To whom? To which of the thousands of gods? Maybe they draw straws at the start of each term?
K.
Exactly! they should at least be able to track down, verify, sbstantiate, find a fact about, the chosen god to which they are being taught to pray. Teaching the definition of the word 'pray' is necessary of course.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Well, good Religious Education departments managed in England until the Tories marginalised the subject.
No they didn't - utter rubbish. Every school that has a Religious Education department has only been able to focus on a small number of world religions. Obviously.
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arse
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If children should be taught as much as possible about everything, they should certainly be taught how to pray.<snip>
To whom? To which of the thousands of gods? Maybe they draw straws at the start of each term?
K.
As there is only one living God, they will either find him or not if they pray.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
Contrary to the impression I might have given on this thread, I am definitely not a HTB may the force be with you twist God's arm and if everything is not hunkydory then it's somebody's fault (other than God's) type of Christian. If anyone cared to read my question on What is the point of prayer? some weeks ago, you would find my attitude to prayer there. I am sorry, but I can't find the URL, but it was put onto a forum for new questions.
However, I have been influenced by charismatic "name it and claim it" types - and not for the best. In fact, if it were not for the traditional MOTR Anglican Church full of lovely, loving Christian people that I now attend, I would probably have lost faith altogether.
The case in point in the OP is not one of terminal illness or somebody asking for a miraculous healing or replacement limb etc. It was much more positive, originally. The person concerned was going through a difficult time and I prayed that God would give them strength to get through it. They seemed to be doing well and I actually believed they were going to be all right.
Go forward a couple of weeks and they have gone from feeling quite positive to despair. Although I have continued in my prayers, this person has now taken a major backward step and I really don't know if they will be able to get out of it, or even if I'll see them again. It makes me very sad.
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
Other post I mentioned was on the Eighth Day and no longer exists, AFAICS.
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"...But I always want to know the things one shouldn’t do.”
“So as to do them?” asked her aunt.
“So as to choose,” said Isabel.
Henry James - The Portrait of A Lady
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, I recognise all of that, Jude, and for what it's worth, I didn't have you down as a name it and claim it type but as someone who has been influenced by that approach in the past.
I was never really into that sort of thing, but the church I was involved with for 18 years was influenced by it to a greater extent more than I was ... and it made for an uncomfortable ride at times - although the mileage varied as to how much or how little of that stuff people went in for.
I can understand how you feel but people's moods and attitudes do change - and if they're having a hard time their mood swings will be more intense. Your friend may swing back out of despair yet - we don't know, we'll have to wait and see.
I have no pat answers nor any placebos, you're doing the right thing in standing by this person in their time of need. That counts for a lot.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
good Religious Education departments managed in England until the Tories marginalised the subject.
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Well, to adapt a well known saying, "they would, wouldn't they?" (M Rice Davies). But of course M Thatcher claimed deep religious beliefs, even describing herself as an Anglican (which she wasn't). And during his time as Leader of the Opposition, Wm Hague moved from being "an Anglican and occasional church-goer" to having "deep religious faith". At least D Cameron describes himself as being "the most wishy washy of Anglicans". Perhaps they're growing up. And/or becoming less hypocritical.
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Jude ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) that's for YOU.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
The case in point in the OP is not one of terminal illness or somebody asking for a miraculous healing or replacement limb etc. It was much more positive, originally. The person concerned was going through a difficult time and I prayed that God would give them strength to get through it. They seemed to be doing well and I actually believed they were going to be all right.
Go forward a couple of weeks and they have gone from feeling quite positive to despair. Although I have continued in my prayers, this person has now taken a major backward step and I really don't know if they will be able to get out of it, or even if I'll see them again. It makes me very sad.
It makes me sad too, Jude. The natural response is to bring our sadness to God in prayer, and to ask God to give the person the strength to get through this.
If the difficult time involves depression, the peaks and troughs are all part of the illness. That there is a trough doesn't mean that God is not with them, that God has failed to answer the prayer. What God gives us through prayer is hope, not certainty. These three always remain: faith, hope and love.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If children should be taught as much as possible about everything, they should certainly be taught how to pray.<snip>
To whom? To which of the thousands of gods? Maybe they draw straws at the start of each term?
K.
Exactly! they should at least be able to track down, verify, sbstantiate, find a fact about, the chosen god to which they are being taught to pray. Teaching the definition of the word 'pray' is necessary of course.
I think we've been around this barn a few 100 times already...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I have no pat answers nor any placebos, you're doing the right thing in standing by this person in their time of need. That counts for a lot.
Yes. I imagine your friend is better served by your "ministry of presence" than s/he would be by a bunch of meaningless pat answers. May God bless you both.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
Thanks for your replies, much appreciated.
Just one thing - Fausto - that may be so if God's blessings came from outer space. However, I believe that He is right here with us and His blessings come from very close. Heaven is just a breath away.
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Jude. I have a close friend who CANNOT be helped. He's living in a nest, a den in the countryside with his two cats. For real. The police are aware and being helplessly privileged like me. I'm in useless tears writing this. He texts me. I never take calls, never make them. I text back. He's very sweet. A most close friend in Christian Vision for Men has found him so too, even knowing his truly appalling past: 'A nice young man'. And completely and utterly un-helpable. Other men are waiting in the wings. Nothing can be done. By God let alone anyone else. He can't take any help whilst crying out for it. He trusts us but there is no coherent impetus. Just a long, accelerating decline. The 'best' that can happen is that he crosses some line and is taken in to a secure mental health unit and cared for for the rest of his life. But they don't do that any more do they? Do we.
ALL I know is that all will be well for him after death, which can't be long now. I would call if he unconditionally surrendered, we could move heaven and earth for him if he could accept.
He CAN NOT.
Until he is healed. And such NEVER happens this side of death. And ALWAYS does after. Until then, we must ALL suffer, from God on down.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
for this young man.
Sometimes we really don't know what else to do and have to leave it in God's hands.
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Until he is healed. And such NEVER happens this side of death. And ALWAYS does after. Until then, we must ALL suffer, from God on down.
Not never, but certainly not always-- far from it. Not enough.
Love what you say here-- ALL suffer from God on down. And one day, all will be healed.
Maranatha: Come, Lord.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
Thanks for your replies, much appreciated.
Just one thing - Fausto - that may be so if God's blessings came from outer space. However, I believe that He is right here with us and His blessings come from very close. Heaven is just a breath away.
Yes, of course. Just trying to inject a little levity to lighten up an otherwise heavy topic.
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
cliffdweller. None of us knows an exception. And yes I can think of five friends straight away who have been hauled out of the pit. They could be. Because they could reach out unconditionally. This lad cannot. And it's not his or anyone else's fault. From us on up.
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Love wins
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If children should be taught as much as possible about everything, they should certainly be taught how to pray.<snip>
To whom? To which of the thousands of gods? Maybe they draw straws at the start of each term?
K.
As there is only one living God, they will either find him or not if they pray.
Andu what do you say to the Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, New-Agers, Spiritualists, followers of folks religions, followers of Thor or Zeus, who claim, just as you do, that their god answers their prayers and hears them? Or how about the millions of followers of Sathya Sai Baba? In the latter case we even have hundreds or possibly thousands of eye witness accounts of his miracles—including raising the dead.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Does God intervene directly in our lives and temporarily suspend the laws of nature in our favour when we ask him to do so? This is the question at the heart of the matter. If the answer is 'no', the consequences are not necessarily that 1) there is no God or 2) prayer is useless. I find serious moral problems that result as a consequence of answering 'yes' to the question at the start of this paragraph.
I can imagine that some would answer the question with 'sometimes', but still leaves a rather ugly problem with theodicy. That answer can also take us back to the problem of 'abuse', where the unsuccessful petitioners are left to soak in blame.
K.
and quote:
And what do you say to the Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, New-Agers, Spiritualists, followers of folks religions, followers of Thor or Zeus, who claim, just as you do, that their god answers their prayers and hears them? Or how about the millions of followers of Sathya Sai Baba? In the latter case we even have hundreds or possibly thousands of eye witness accounts of his miracles—including raising the dead.
If the purpose of prayer is not to ask God to intervene and to suspend the laws of nature, but to draw close to God, the Creator of the universe, as that is a good thing to do for our spiritual welfare and for the moral good of society as a whole, then none of the claims above about miracles apply.
It remains a good thing to teach children how to pray.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
How are atheist teachers exactly going to be expected to do this?
It may be a good thing to teach. I don't think it's the schools' job.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If the purpose of prayer is not to ask God to intervene and to suspend the laws of nature, but to draw close to God, the Creator of the universe, as that is a good thing to do for our spiritual welfare and for the moral good of society as a whole, then none of the claims above about miracles apply.
It remains a good thing to teach children how to pray.
Ah the old "world is the way I say it is, therefore everyone should do what I say" mantra. Every person of goodwill should resist this kind of nonsense.
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arse
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Well, good Religious Education departments managed in England until the Tories marginalised the subject.
No they didn't - utter rubbish. Every school that has a Religious Education department has only been able to focus on a small number of world religions. Obviously.
Your source for tis information?
I have taught RE for nearly 40 years, been on a Standing Advisory Council on RE for 37 years and on National Standing Advisory Council on RE since its inception circa 1990 - so I can claim to know what was and is going on.
Before that, Birmingham SACRE introduced 8 religions/life stances - all of equal importance, in 1974.
[ 23. October 2015, 14:22: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Your source for tis information?
I have taught RE for nearly 40 years, been on a Standing Advisory Council on RE for 37 years and on National Standing Advisory Council on RE since its inception circa 1990 - so I can claim to know what was and is going on.
Before that, Birmingham SACRE introduced 8 religions/life stances - all of equal importance, in 1974.
The world contains more than 8 distinct religions. There are obviously more than 8 forms of very different and contradictory Christianity in the City of Birmingham.
Therefore you cannot possibly be covering the prayer practices of different Christian denominations in Birmingham, never mind all of the other religions in the UK.
QED.
[ 23. October 2015, 14:33: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If the purpose of prayer is not to ask God to intervene and to suspend the laws of nature, but to draw close to God, the Creator of the universe, as that is a good thing to do for our spiritual welfare and for the moral good of society as a whole, then none of the claims above about miracles apply.
It remains a good thing to teach children how to pray.
Ah the old "world is the way I say it is, therefore everyone should do what I say" mantra. Every person of goodwill should resist this kind of nonsense.
Rather, this is the truth as I see it, it is OK for me to express my opinion too. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Leo
I am interested to hear you mention SACRE. Is (or was) there a Humanist representative on the panel?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Jude.
I'll tell him that people neither he nor I know are lighting candles for him.
It will comfort him as he is lost to us.
But not to God.
Thank you.
YOU are the answer to your prayer. For now. A dim, brief flicker in the dark. Before the dawn of the Son's endless day.
[ 23. October 2015, 23:20: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How are atheist teachers exactly going to be expected to do this?
It may be a good thing to teach. I don't think it's the schools' job.
In the same way as teachers have always been asked to set aside their own beliefs, and teach impartially. Teachers with faith in God are asked to do it all of the time.
It's surely as much the school's job to teach healthy spiritual practices as it is to teach healthy physical and mental practices.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Your source for tis information?
I have taught RE for nearly 40 years, been on a Standing Advisory Council on RE for 37 years and on National Standing Advisory Council on RE since its inception circa 1990 - so I can claim to know what was and is going on.
Before that, Birmingham SACRE introduced 8 religions/life stances - all of equal importance, in 1974.
The world contains more than 8 distinct religions. There are obviously more than 8 forms of very different and contradictory Christianity in the City of Birmingham.
Therefore you cannot possibly be covering the prayer practices of different Christian denominations in Birmingham, never mind all of the other religions in the UK.
QED.
My statements were in reply to teaching about religions (not merely 'prayer') - the post suggested that all RE privileges one religoin more than the others.
The Birmingham syllabus and my practice was to give each religion/world view equal time.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Leo
I am interested to hear you mention SACRE. Is (or was) there a Humanist representative on the panel?
Yes - and very good he is too.
Thank you for reply. Salutations to him from a fellow humanist!! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Leo
Thank you for your interesting pm - it seems, though, that your pm box is full!!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Leo
I am interested to hear you mention SACRE. Is (or was) there a Humanist representative on the panel?
Yes - and very good he is too.
Leo, when I googled it I got this from a Humanist site. What's going on? Is my quote out of date?
quote:
The controversial Birmingham syllabus for RE is unusual in explicitly ruling out learning about non-religious beliefs like Humanism and is marketed under the name ‘Faith Makes a Difference’, a title that implicitly denigrates those who are not religious.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Birmingham produced a new syllabus 2 or 3 years ago. The council had become Tory led and there is one particilar councillor who is very vocal in his antagonism to humanism. He writes email to many of us across the country and is a one-man crusade.
The syllabus I was referring to was its very innovative 1974 one, which was held up by the RE community as a model to follow.
It's a shame that this multi-cultural city has gone back to the dark ages.
[ 26. October 2015, 09:03: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
From the Diocese of London site:
quote:
It is required by law that Religious Education (RE) be taught in schools, but RE is not part of the National Curriculum, instead RE is a local responsibility. SACRE oversees RE and collective worship in Community Schools.
Each diocese has its own SACRE and sets the syllabus for that area. So, for example, the Newcastle Diocese includes the northern saints in its syllabus (Aidan, Bede, etc), whereas Chelmsford looks to be following the suggested national curriculum with very little local flavour and London is charging for its version, so I can't get beyond the prices.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
YOU are the answer to your prayer. For now. A dim, brief flicker in the dark. Before the dawn of the Son's endless day.
Thanks for this, Martin. I need to be reminded of it every day.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Jude.
I'll tell him that people neither he nor I know are lighting candles for him.
It will comfort him as he is lost to us.
But not to God.
Thank you.
YOU are the answer to your prayer. For now. A dim, brief flicker in the dark. Before the dawn of the Son's endless day.
That's very nice. I had the experience during a Zen retreat, that the question we were working on, (who am I? I think), was me, and I was the answer. The endless day also. Why wait for it?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How are atheist teachers exactly going to be expected to do this?
It may be a good thing to teach. I don't think it's the schools' job.
In the same way as teachers have always been asked to set aside their own beliefs, and teach impartially. Teachers with faith in God are asked to do it all of the time.
It's surely as much the school's job to teach healthy spiritual practices as it is to teach healthy physical and mental practices.
Schoolteachers can teach children what prayer might mean for believers, and what different religions teach about it, but in today's pluralistic society can they really be expected to teach children how to pray??
I don't know if I'd want my children (if I had any) being taught some school's idea of what constitutes 'healthy spiritual practices'. How would I as a Christian/Muslim/atheist parent know exactly what that entailed? And what if I didn't approve of the school's spiritual 'help'?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Schoolteachers can teach children what prayer might mean for believers, and what different religions teach about it, but in today's pluralistic society can they really be expected to teach children how to pray??
I don't know if I'd want my children (if I had any) being taught some school's idea of what constitutes 'healthy spiritual practices'. How would I as a Christian/Muslim/atheist parent know exactly what that entailed? And what if I didn't approve of the school's spiritual 'help'?
Heck, even teaching an explicitly Christian course at an explicitly evangelical college, that's all I'm doing. It's all "this is what most evangelicals believe/do re...." with a very explicit "ymmv".
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't know if I'd want my children (if I had any) being taught some school's idea of what constitutes 'healthy spiritual practices'. How would I as a Christian/Muslim/atheist parent know exactly what that entailed? And what if I didn't approve of the school's spiritual 'help'?
As an American I'm partially arguing devil's advocate here since the loud Christians we have are definitely not people I'd trust my daughter's religious education to. Still: Why is it different to have someone teaching your child about nutrition or how to choose books and about spiritual practices. There are things my daughter gets about nutrition that I think are not completely right.* And I certainly haven't agreed with some of her teachers' advice about how to choose a book. So what. I responded with how I disagreed and let her decide what to think herself. Surely the same is true of religion?
(If my daughter were getting religious ideas at school that I found scary and fundie, I'd reteach the topic in a more open-minded think-for-yourself way.)
*I suspect that's her simplifying or misunderstanding rather than her teacher being wrong, but the outcome is the same.
[ 26. October 2015, 19:38: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
When I was a girl, it was assumed that primary school assemblies in England would be Christian in character, and at my school, they were. My parents never worried about what happened there, as far as I recall.
These days, I'm sure that what happens in that same school is rather different. The intake is much more mixed. If I were going to send a child to the same school, I'd want to know how school assemblies had changed, and what 'prayer' now consisted of, or even if it existed at all.
(I've heard that some CofE schools with a very homogeneous intake occasionally suffer from some rather 'fundie' Christian teachers who run assemblies or RE lessons in a very particular way, but I don't suppose that's an issue in very many 'ordinary' British schools. In a multicultural city school such a teacher wouldn't last long.)
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Schoolteachers can teach children what prayer might mean for believers, and what different religions teach about it, but in today's pluralistic society can they really be expected to teach children how to pray??
I don't know if I'd want my children (if I had any) being taught some school's idea of what constitutes 'healthy spiritual practices'. How would I as a Christian/Muslim/atheist parent know exactly what that entailed? And what if I didn't approve of the school's spiritual 'help'?
I don't know if you have heard of
Prayer spaces in schools but they seem to work across all religions and none.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Thanks. It looks like a very good concept. There is one video about prayer-spaces in multicultural contexts, but on the whole it does seem to be rather Christian-dominated to judge from the contributors and examples used. But if that works for the schools involved then that's something positive.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
As an American I'm partially arguing devil's advocate here since the loud Christians we have are definitely not people I'd trust my daughter's religious education to. Still: Why is it different to have someone teaching your child about nutrition or how to choose books and about spiritual practices.
Because food, nutrition, etc are all real and clear evidence (scientific and practical) can be accessed in order to make a sensible choice. As far as spiritual growth is concerned, that term needs a far clearer definition, as all non-believers, all people whatever their beliefs, have spiritual/aesthetic aspects to their lives. quote:
There are things my daughter gets about nutrition that I think are not completely right.* And I certainly haven't agreed with some of her teachers' advice about how to choose a book. So what. I responded with how I disagreed and let her decide what to think herself. Surely the same is true of religion?
No - because although there are mountains of evidence about the beliefs and practices of religions, there is zero (i.e. as near to zero as makes no difference) evidence of any actual god. quote:
(If my daughter were getting religious ideas at school that I found scary and fundie, I'd reteach the topic in a more open-minded think-for-yourself way.)
*I suspect that's her simplifying or misunderstanding rather than her teacher being wrong, but the outcome is the same.
Agreed; frustratingly for the atheists and humanists of this world, the situation will change only very slowly, but if that makes for greater peace and security, then it is the best way.
[fixed code]
[ 27. October 2015, 06:56: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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