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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why doesn't prayer work?
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
I'm feeling rather despondant right now. I've recently been praying for somebody I know, who seemed like they needed some help. However, since I started praying they just seem to be going down and down. I may not even see them again. Surely God would want the same as me in this case, which is to help this person get out of the situation they are in. I have actually seen this person ask God for help too. Is something blocking God's work? Are there times when God can't help? All this makes me so sad. Is there anything I can do?
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"...But I always want to know the things one shouldn’t do.”
“So as to do them?” asked her aunt.
“So as to choose,” said Isabel.
Henry James - The Portrait of A Lady
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
It would be good if prayer 'worked' in the sense that whatever we asked for, we would get. What would it say about God, if that happened?
It may well be that God's will is aligned with your will, and everything is possible with God, so don't give up hope. We will never know how things will pan out though, or what good can come from them even if the worst seems to have happened.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) for you and for your friend, Jude. All you can do is to continue to pray, and to give support to your friend in every way possible.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
If you're looking for a theological answer, you'll find quite the cornucopia to choose from over on the "why does God give us freedom?" thread.
But I sense that's not really what you're looking for. Rather, you're looking to cry out at the injustice and pain of what your friend is going thru and you are going thru on his or her behalf. Here I can only say that I believe that in so doing you are resonating with the heart of God. Your yearning for things to be "set right" and your honesty in insisting that the current state of affairs is most definitely "not right" is, I think, what calls us to yearn for God and restoration.
I wish we could give you a formula, an answer, a trick. We cannot. But I join you in praying: Maranatha, come Lord Jesus, come.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
I'm reminded of Cinderella here when she is confronted by her fairy godmother. A wave of the wand and it all happens for Cinders. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
I lost my Bro-in-law to prostate cancer 2 years ago when he was 58. We prayed and prayed for his healing. ..Sorry, no cigar.
Something is a bit awry with either our expectations of God and it cannot be God by definition.
On thing in the gospels is "knock and keep on knocking." If we didn't need God to come through we probably wouldn't seek him.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
I have two thoughts.
One is the difference between healing and curing. In cases of illness (which not be your friend's situation) it might not be possible for the person to be cured and become well again, but for them to accept God's love and care in their situation, as we ask (some of us!) when we pray 'be with us in the time of trial.
The other is Jesus' cry on the cross: "Nevertheless not my will but yours'. Surely God does not wish anyone to suffer, but there are bad things in the world, and God's loving arms hold us when we experience grief and pain.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Expect no miracles. Expect only comfort. That's all that is on offer. It's all that ever was on offer and all that ever will be.
This may be a hard message to consider, at least it was/is for me for me. But is gets easier, and it is the reality that crisis after crisis has lead me to understand.
When you can't do anything, hold to the path, pick up your heart, hand it off to someone else. Turn to something you know, a routine, a way of doing things. Psalms. A routine for a week of repetitive words. Something to ground the spirit a bit.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
My guess is, take ten people, drop the same bad stuff on each of them, if there is "purpose" to the bad stuff it's a different purpose for each, which is part of why we can't see a pattern.
Also we tend to see short term. We want protection from or relief from this pain right now. But lots of articles and books have been written on the theme of "the heart attack and 5 weeks in the hospital was the best thing that ever happened to me." Before the attack people were praying for health and comfort, during the attack they were praying for quick recovery, heart attack plus 5 weeks of hospital plus more weeks of post hospital recovery doesn't sound like answered prayer but maybe it was - answer to a much deeper prayer, for purpose and meaning, for passion and seeing what matters most. "Best thing" is not the heart attack but that was the tool used to bring about a life changing new awareness of some kind.
Or the person dies - if the Near Death Experience reports are true, the person newly dead doesn't see their death as a bad thing! Our loss, their gain.
Not claiming to understand it all or even 10%, but sometimes we get glimpse that maybe something much bigger is going on than what we see and fret about.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Maybe it's just me, but I have trouble with the "look for the bigger purpose" answer. Sure, sometimes that works-- the "heart attack was the best thing that ever happened to me" because it made me slow down, saved my marriage, whatever. But far, far more often, it's just crappy. And there is some serious crappy stuff out there. Child abuse. Human trafficking. Horrible, ravaging illness plaguing innocent children. I'm sorry, there's no purpose, no goodness in that.
I believe God is there, that God is with those who suffer. And there is meaning and wonder and possibly comfort in that. But purpose? No.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Thank you cliffdweller, I gave up praying after my mum died. There had been no let up for her for six years. But the comfort is still there even when I don't seek it. I rail against God and work hard to lose my faith, but, so far, God's comfort remains.
How/why to ever pray again - I can't think of a reason.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
My feeling has been for a long time that prayer is like shouting into a dark, windy night. Your words are either swept away and swallowed up in the darkness or blown back into your face. Either way, there is no answer, and there is no comfort, no sense of response or even of anyone listening. There is nothing but silence.
God isn’t a divine Santa Claus. He isn’t going to grant every single request on a list that might involve getting a parking space, healing a sick member of family, sorting out a tax bill, or providing a miracle to order when you want one. Half the time what you want would have implications for what other people might want or need as well: who gets priority on the parking space?
I’ve often wondered about the nature of a god who created a world where every living thing has to take the life of something else to survive, pretty much from birth, whether it’s animals, plants or seeds and nuts. I think a lot of the time people want to believe that there’s a plan to the world, that it’s run by someone who cares, but I find that increasingly difficult to believe. For me the buck stops here. If you don’t deal with the problem yourself, or your fellow human beings don’t, nothing intangible is going to come to your rescue and provide that miracle to order.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
If you don’t deal with the problem yourself, or your fellow human beings don’t, nothing intangible is going to come to your rescue and provide that miracle to order.
I see a lot of prayer which is (unconsciously) aimed at the audience. I know an unemployed person who puts up FaceBook requests for prayer for his situation. Guess what? 'God provides abundantly' - in other words, people who read the prayers help this person out. Shame they don't get the credit.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I believe that God comes along side us in our joys and sorrows, but he doesn't manipulate our lives as though we are robots. Many people approach God as though he is a benevolent Father Christmas who will give us everything we desire if we are good and if we ask nicely. However, often God says no just as Jesus discovered in the Garden of Gethsemane. It is worth reading again about the trials Job went through to understand the suffering of an individual and his struggles with praying to God.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I am with Ariel. There is no Santa Claus. There is only the necessity to live in this now, this moment, however intolerable that seems. To do that, because you must, and find you can do it - because you must: there is a sort of strength in that that sometimes turns to peace.
That and the solidarity of other people.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Expect no miracles. Expect only comfort. That's all that is on offer. It's all that ever was on offer and all that ever will be.
And sometimes, not even comfort.
All I know is, we waste too much time making excuses for God. Explaining his absence. Justifying his silence. Really, what sort of God is it whose worshippers feel they constantly have to apologise for him?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
A Roman Catholic friend once told me, "there is no such thing as an unanswered prayer".
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglicano:
A Roman Catholic friend once told me, "there is no such thing as an unanswered prayer".
Yeah, I've heard that one from churchy keenies of all stripes. It's not, actually, particularly helpful, because it merely works by redefining "unanswered" to a point where it has no meaning.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
In the Garden: "Thy will not Mine"; on the Cross "Why hast Thou forsaken Me?".
Even between Persons of the (undivided) Trinity, it would seem that, for Christians, prayer is not revealed to be a simple and comforting process.
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Thank you cliffdweller, I gave up praying after my mum died. There had been no let up for her for six years. But the comfort is still there even when I don't seek it. I rail against God and work hard to lose my faith, but, so far, God's comfort remains.
How/why to ever pray again - I can't think of a reason.
Ironically, as an Open Theist, prayer has more of a purpose, not less. We do believe prayer changes things-- or can change things-- so we have a greater commitment to prayer. But we do not believe that everything that happens is God's will, even when we pray. So, while we have a greater calling to intercede prayerfully, we don't look for some "greater purpose" when our prayers aren't answered. Unanswered prayer is part of the continued crappiness of our broken and fallen world, and part of the reason we pray "Maranatha: come Lord Jesus, come".
All that's part of a bigger theological paradigm which, again, I've alluded to on the "freedom" thread. But I'm not sure that's what's needed here. When you're in the thick of the crappiness of life I think mostly you just need to rail and cry out against the ugly, raw injustice of it all, and to hear others come alongside you and simply affirm, no, you're not crazy, this is pure s**t. Or at least, that's what I want in those circumstances.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
All will be well. Because of that promise in Christ, let's serve one another. At least as well as those who serve with no such promise. Hear one another. Weep with the weeping. God does. Fully in every infinitesimal soul shaped hole of Her infinite being.
Jude
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I am with Ariel. There is no Santa Claus. There is only the necessity to live in this now, this moment, however intolerable that seems. To do that, because you must, and find you can do it - because you must: there is a sort of strength in that that sometimes turns to peace.
That and the solidarity of other people.
Well said ... and the last sentence is absolutely the most important.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Expect no miracles. Expect only comfort. That's all that is on offer. It's all that ever was on offer and all that ever will be.
And sometimes, not even comfort.
All I know is, we waste too much time making excuses for God. Explaining his absence. Justifying his silence. Really, what sort of God is it whose worshippers feel they constantly have to apologise for him?
That's true. It's only comfort if you find it. It might be something else, like rage and resignedness.
I found myself praying out of habit, from a long history and familiarity of doing so, and being perturbed with myself, when I would find some phrases going through my mind and sometimes on my tongue, like "protect me O God", to which I found myself adding, "except you won't, except you don't".
I also found myself calling God by his last name. (Damn, or Mr. Damn)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
Surely The Lord's Prayer is quite helpful here: "Thy will be done", but "give us this day our daily bread"; "lead us not into temptation" and "deliver us from evil".
Now if we are tempted and succumb, well, we can hardly blame God. He has given us free will, after all. But say we pray to be delivered from evil only to find that someone had broken into our car while we were in church. Where was God then? Not an easy one, is it?
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
I don't know if my prayer ever changes anything except me - and it does change me, markedly but for quite short periods before it's time to pray again. It feels a bit like jogging, or being at work moving a pile of sand from A to B - it happens in the doing of it, not in some projected and far-reaching effect of the doing of it. Ach, I can't explain it clearly.
So 'please God rescue x from yyy' might end up being 'God, do I have the strength to do anything about x and yyy', or even 'God, I haven't the strength / wit / ability and you don't seem to be giving it to me - God will you help x and me with your peace as yyy inexorably comes?'.
Without God, why worry about yyy? It's just shit, same as the good times. It hurts, it's unjust - seek the source of justice, if He exists.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Don't think Jesus had the solidarity of other people that evening in Gethsemane. Nor did he have in what followed, not even from His Father it would seem.
Prayer is ultimately as Paul said 'a groaning of the spirit'. It may bring comfort, it may bring a sense of off-load, or occasionally even a sense of joy. These though are all by-products, essentially prayer is a one on One, the One being S(he)whereby they is no separation because Jesus kinda like did with that?
As for prayer working or not working? Afraid I have to pass on that one. Agreeing with comments upthread, I find the image of a Lord with a Shepherd's crook to guide us through oppressions more helpful than a magic wand to solve them.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And He guides us in every possible way except literally.
It's way past time to put away childish things kids.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
In "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn", Huck is told he should pray, so he tries it, and he gets (if I remember correctly) a fishing line but no hooks. He is then told he should pray for spiritual gifts, but he has no idea what that means, and he stops praying. Nonetheless, it seems clear that God does look out for him.
For many of us, most of our prayers should be thank-yous. Don't ask God for more blessings; thank God for what you have already received.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
In "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn", Huck is told he should pray, so he tries it, and he gets (if I remember correctly) a fishing line but no hooks. He is then told he should pray for spiritual gifts, but he has no idea what that means, and he stops praying. Nonetheless, it seems clear that God does look out for him.
For many of us, most of our prayers should be thank-yous. Don't ask God for more blessings; thank God for what you have already received.
Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
As you are probably aware, Mark Twain was a well-known atheist; I googled Mark Twain atheist and there's a good page of his relevant quotes! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And He guides us in every possible way except literally.
It's way past time to put away childish things kids.
Hear, hear. Prayer doesn't work (as in 'produce any kind of verifiable result') because prayer doesn't work.
Keep your hopes up!
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Philip Charles
Ship's cutler
# 618
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Posted
I am a believer in prayer with passion at times like this. I have used it myself and the answers I have received are changes within myself.
Speaking to God from the gut, not the head. Not being polite or religious. Not choosing words carefully, all language can be used. Not quite and responsive, but loud and aggressive. Any language can be used to express your fury, anger, and frustration. No inhibitions.
God already knows what you are feeling so your expressed fury etc is a sign of the trust you have in him..
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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Posts: 89 | From: Dunedin, NZ | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
As you are probably aware, Mark Twain was a well-known atheist; I googled Mark Twain atheist and there's a good page of his relevant quotes!
Actually, if you google Mark Twain's religious beliefs what you find is not that he is a "well-known atheist" but rather that his actual religious beliefs are a topic of
great debate. He certainly was a sharp critic of American fundamentalist Christianity-- in a way that would fit in quite well here at the Ship. Religion appears to be an area of great interest for him, both the negative but also the positive (his take on Joan of Arc). But whether he was an atheist, agnostic, Deist, or liberal Christian is a matter of significant and ongoing debate.
[ 14. October 2015, 13:08: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Maybe it's just me, but I have trouble with the "look for the bigger purpose" answer.
I didn't mean to suggest we should look for and expect to find, recognize (or agree with) a "bigger purpose." Most people I've known who guess "God is doing this to achieve that purpose" obviously get it wrong.
I'm suggesting occasionally we get a glimpse suggesting that could be what's going on, God is working through the pain to bring about something more important than mere life or death.
I don't mean to suggest God created the painful situation, but rather that God can take any situation handed to God, and use it to bring about good. Not that this specific pain is essential, but as long as it's here God can go ahead and use it, like an artist can draw your portrait no matter what art tools you hand him - charcoal, oils, colored sands.
Doesn't Paul suggest several times that God can bring good out of anything, and that the pain and effort is all worth it in the end?
"God can't do anything about your pains except be there with you" doesn't give me any peace! "God is with you while you go through the pain, but more than just being there, God is using the situation to do good for you even though you cannot see it and probably won't until after you are dead" keeps me going. YMMV.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Trin
Shipmate
# 12100
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Posted
I'm 29 and coming to a point in life where I'm seriously and deeply questioning the implications of questions like the one raised in the OP.
I find it quite discouraging that Christians twice my age don't seem to have worked out any solid answers to these things either. (That's not based just on reading this forum.)
Posts: 442 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
I'm 29 and coming to a point in life where I'm seriously and deeply questioning the implications of questions like the one raised in the OP.
I find it quite discouraging that Christians twice my age don't seem to have worked out any solid answers to these things either. (That's not based just on reading this forum.)
None of the big questions have well thought out answers that are cut and dried and hold water really well. If they did they'd no longer be Big Questions. Make of it what you will.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Why would you expect Christians twice your age to have developed clearer answers, Trin?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
People have been puzzling these things out for centuries. I doubt if I'll suss them out within my three-score years and ten - if I'm spared that long (and I'm not quite twice your age yet).
Perhaps in four or five years time I'll have it all sussed ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
SusanDoris:
quote:
Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
Well it all hangs on how you define natural. If you mean "fully explained by a set of deterministic chemical/biological processes which are measureable in principle, if not in practice due to their complexity" then I would cite anything down to the free choice of free non-determined individuals. You are quite welcome to believe freedom and consciousness are essentially illusions but I disagree. Yes you can mount a case for it, a la Daniel Dennett, but I am just not convinced.
Of course, Christians have a broader concept of natural and would class, say, the decision of my wife to marry me, as entirely natural but not pre-determined. So natural for most christians can include non-material causes, and non-natural would imply anything not part of the natural order, like as Ass speaking. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
But most atheists are also materialists which is why I sort of assume you are.
In the christian sense of natural, nothing has happened outside it, which is ok with me. It gets too random for me if Asses speak. Life's complicated enough without that.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
I'm 29 and coming to a point in life where I'm seriously and deeply questioning the implications of questions like the one raised in the OP.
I find it quite discouraging that Christians twice my age don't seem to have worked out any solid answers to these things either. (That's not based just on reading this forum.)
I think I've worked out some pretty solid answers on this: prayer doesn't change God. If the purpose is to get God to do something and/or to change his mind about something, then that's not going to happen.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
[/QUOTE]Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
[/QUOTE]
Yes, my pleasant drift from agnosticism back to Anglicanism was aided by various events which were more than just coincidences.
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
Actually, if you google Mark Twain's religious beliefs what you find is not that he is a "well-known atheist" but rather that his actual religious beliefs are a topic of
[URL=http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wakeupcall/2014/10/its-time-to-take-mark-twain-back-from-the-atheists/]great debate.
I'm sure you're right. But these "new atheists" claim all sorts of people: Charles Darwin, David Attenborough, Jim Callaghan and Ralph Vaughan Williams for example.
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
cliffdweller
Thank you for the info re Mark Twain - I'll investigate further tomorrow. (I've been out all day today on IoW.)
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
I find it quite discouraging that Christians twice my age don't seem to have worked out any solid answers to these things either. (That's not based just on reading this forum.)
The problem might be that God's ways are not our ways?
What if our questions are the wrong questions, like a teenager asking "how can I make that cute kid fall in love with me?" -- not in itself a "sinful" question but focused way too narrowly and based on some false assumptions.
Maybe what seem to us like the big questions are focused to narrowly or based on assumptions God sees beyond?
If we are asking the wrong questions or working from the wrong assumptions, we won't "hear" the answers even if they are obvious to anyone with looking from God's viewpoint.
So we muddle through life puzzled, seeing through a glass darkly, assured some day we will understand and rejoice.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
I'm 29 and coming to a point in life where I'm seriously and deeply questioning the implications of questions like the one raised in the OP.
I find it quite discouraging that Christians twice my age don't seem to have worked out any solid answers to these things either. (That's not based just on reading this forum.)
Some very smart people have been trying to work out what Christ was up to for two thousand years, and that's on top of work done by Jews, Greeks and others. Glib phrases like "God works in mysterious ways" annoy the heck out of me and I wish there were answers too, but I can't help thinking that if there were solid answers, faith wouldn't be a matter of faith, just dry, systematic scholarship.
I'm exactly twice your age and gave up expecting much beyond the "Sure and certain hope of the life to come" about thirty years ago.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Trin. Come on in, the clear, unpolluted, water's fine.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think I've worked out some pretty solid answers on this: prayer doesn't change God. If the purpose is to get God to do something and/or to change his mind about something, then that's not going to happen.
Then why bother?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
I'm 29 and coming to a point in life where I'm seriously and deeply questioning the implications of questions like the one raised in the OP.
I find it quite discouraging that Christians twice my age don't seem to have worked out any solid answers to these things either. (That's not based just on reading this forum.)
None of the big questions have well thought out answers that are cut and dried and hold water really well. If they did they'd no longer be Big Questions. Make of it what you will.
We're all different characters/personalities. We each relate to God in our own way. We all ask different questions and need different answers, maybe different answers at different times.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
'Where two or three are gathered together, I am with you' speaks about the importance of community. I have often wondered how we think anything we do on our own can be more efficacious than meeting, sharing and encouraging each other prayerfully. Going away to spend hours in our own private prayer closets is for me far less important than the attitude that I can make my whole life a prayer. Every breath is a gift from God. Being mindful of others needs is a beautiful thing in this self-centred world. I don't consider that a waste.
And when I am dying I will be extremely grateful for anyone who prays - not for my healing - but for me to keep hold of the peace that passes all understanding. Who wants to die embittered and disappointed?' Lord, give me a good death' was a prayer often prayed by the faithful of the past. Funny how we tend to focus only on trying to stay in this world in our prayers these days.
BL. Looking forward.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Amen BL, amen.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I heard this morning that Job is at the end of the Jewish Testament because (sans the later addition of the "he got more stuff so everything is OK and better") it is an announcement that God is done intervening in the world.
Don't know if it is true. It is interesting.
As for me, prayer is transformative of my thoughts, even as it is not about changing situations.
Jude, I am sorry for the suffering of your friend. You are among people who care about you and your loss.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Tortuf:
(sans the later addition of the "he got more stuff so everything is OK and better")
(I understood this part is earlier, not later.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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