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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: I call all homophobes to Hell - especially Russ
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
For fuck's sake Russ. I can't begin to think how your brain must work when you can see people as 'other' to such an extent then say 'best wishes' at the end of you post.
You wish homosexual people anything but well!
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
... if homosexuality could be shown to be the result of a flawed copy of a particular gene, then scientists would try to cure it (although it would be for individual sufferers of the condition and their families to decide whether the pain of the cure was preferable to living with the condition).
The only thing they suffer, and have suffered for decades, is the way people like YOU treat them!
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Some people deserve only the love of a necrophiliac.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Best wishes with a rusty farm implement.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
There is some evidence that being a stubborn conservative has a genetic component. The question is, are we going to embrace that evidence, or cling to a belief that Russ wilfully chooses to be the way he is?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
If (and, it's a very big if) there turns out to be a small number of genes which have a different sequence than the majority of the population that is linked to homosexual orientation then that would actually open up a whole aisle of cans of worms.
1. Would there be people who share that minority version of the genes who consider themselves heterosexual? If so, would that mean that social expectations, upbringing etc could override the genetic bias? Or, does it mean that those people are faking their heterosexuality?
2. Would there be people who do not that minority version of the genes who consider themselves homosexual? If so, would that mean that social expectations, upbringing etc could override the genetic bias? Or, does it mean that those people are faking their homosexuality?
3. Does that mean that homosexuality is a genetic disease? If so, seeking a genetic correction therapy would be understandable. Or, if not then those unfortunate enough to share these unusual genetic variants are to be pitied.
etc.
Most, if not all, of which play into the hands of homophobes. Though, pointing out that in the event of such a genetic marker being found that the homophobes will have a whole load of new ammunition to fire isn't, I believe, in itself homophobic.
Though, I expect that if there are genetic variations that cause homosexual tendancies they will be spread across a very large number of genes, and in each individual case the variations in that gene are well within the normal variability of genes. Which would make homosexuality within the range of normal as well.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
If we suppose that homosexuality is due to a small number of isolated genes that could be altered to give a different result, and we also suppose that red hair is due to a small number of isolated genes that could be altered to give a different result, does that mean that
quote:
scientists would try to cure red-headedness (although it would be for individual sufferers of the condition and their families to decide whether the pain of the cure was preferable to living with the condition)
or that Russ is an insufferable arsehat for thinking that homosexuality needs to be 'cured'.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
No one seems to understand that genetics do not determine complex human behaviour, personality etc. Genetics aren't meaningless but it is over-interpreted as to importance. The determining factors about sexuality are human rights and freedom from coercion. That's it. No one should be compelled in matters of love. Are we not civilized enough to say everyone has this basic human right? If someone says they are this way or that, please don't argue. They know themselves better than you.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
If someone says they are this way or that, please don't argue. They know themselves better than you.
This.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
... if homosexuality could be shown to be the result of a flawed copy of a particular gene, then scientists would try to cure it (although it would be for individual sufferers of the condition and their families to decide whether the pain of the cure was preferable to living with the condition).
The only thing they suffer, and have suffered for decades, is the way people like YOU treat them!
Regardless of Russ's attitude, his quotation makes a fair point. If it was a particular gene that could be eliminated, maybe scientists would try to find a cure - well, probably not nowadays, but, say, fifty years ago, they might have. When I worked in mental health, plenty of the older nurses saw homosexuality as a mental illness. Not that this means homosexuality needs to be cured, but it is a statement about how society deals with people who are different and don't fit into their norms.
There is a similar (very heated) debate going on at the moment about whether autism should be cured - autistic people are stating that they don't want to be cured, that a cure would be eliminating who they are, and that the main suffering they experience is from how society treats them. Society does have a tendency to see what is different as pathological, rather than try to accommodate such difference.
I was using the analogy of gender with someone the other day. If women were not needed for reproduction, if (straight) men didn't have attraction to women, and if women weren't 50% of the population but a small percentage of maybe 5%, then being female would no doubt be pathologised into a disease or disorder which needed to be cured. We bleed once a month, we often get pain and mood swings around that time, we don't have penises, we have 'growths' on our chest, our face structures are different from men - all this could easily be seen as some kind of genetic disorder.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
I'm guessing you'd accept that we could make much the same arguments for the elimination of men?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
I'm guessing you'd accept that we could make much the same arguments for the elimination of men?
And actually they'd be more accurate for men. The Y chromosome is clearly defective, and the cause of a number of congenital defects, like colour blindness, being way more common in men than women.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
I'm guessing you'd accept that we could make much the same arguments for the elimination of men?
Yes, of course. I was making the analogy to a woman, and as a woman myself, so it was more effective to use the analogy of women in that case. But yes, that is the exactly the point - I was using it to illustrate autism, so if autistic people were the majority, we'd have created a society which worked for us, and which was by default disabling to non-autistic people, in which case we might pathologise them. Same with gay people - if they were the majority, they might easily pathologise being straight into a disorder. Straight people might be seen as subhuman, whose only role was to reproduce with each other.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
...and if you add an institution which has defined normal, and then itself in the image of its own definition of normality, you have a perfect storm of self-serving prejudice.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
No one seems to understand that genetics do not determine complex human behaviour, personality etc. Genetics aren't meaningless but it is over-interpreted as to importance.
Much of this conversation seems to be premised on an idea that genetics are all-or-nothing. Which is total rubbish.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Much of this conversation seems to be premised on an idea that genetics are all-or-nothing. Which is total rubbish.
Absolutely true. It astonishes me how uneducated people are about simple things like this.
We might profitably have them also explain the genetics behind why we see a dramatic increase in diabetes and myopia (near-sightedness), preferences for red wines and craft beer over sweet whites and mass produced lagers, tattoos and piercings. While we're at it, country music in churches. What's the genetics behind preferences for country gospel, the tramp stamp tattoo of hymnody.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Some people deserve only the love of a necrophiliac.
That's cold.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Some people deserve only the love of a necrophiliac.
That's cold.
Stick them in the oven on a low gas for 10 minutes. Not any longer mind, or they go crispy.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Would someone please point me to the thread in question? Thx.
A couple of things:
--Some years ago, there was news of a gay (?) male researcher who found some genetic basis for homosexuality. At the time, I thought "he may regret telling us that..."--it could be the basis for some abortions.
--Interesting to hear from and about autists on this. I've kind of figured that only people born with a disorder/"disorder" have the right to decide whether to cure the disorder in themselves, and in new babies with it.
Anyone know if someone's asked high-functioning people with Down Syndrome about whether it should be cured?
ETA: Not that lower-functioning folks with Downs don't have the right to give input. I just figured that higher-functioning folks might have an easier time, both coping with the concept and communicating their wishes. FWIW.
[ 11. August 2015, 07:32: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Would someone please point me to the thread in question? Thx.
Boogie provided the link in the opening post.
Or you could just wander over to Dead Horses. You can't miss it, it's where most of the chunks of decaying flesh are being flayed off at the moment.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If we suppose that homosexuality is due to a small number of isolated genes that could be altered to give a different result, and we also suppose that red hair is due to a small number of isolated genes that could be altered to give a different result, does that mean that
quote:
scientists would try to cure red-headedness (although it would be for individual sufferers of the condition and their families to decide whether the pain of the cure was preferable to living with the condition)
or that Russ is an insufferable arsehat for thinking that homosexuality needs to be 'cured'.
Or maybe
quote:
scientists would try to cure being an insufferable arsehat (although it would be for individual sufferers of the condition and their families to decide whether the pain of the cure was preferable to living with the condition)
[ 11. August 2015, 08:02: Message edited by: The Phantom Flan Flinger ]
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I've kind of figured that only people born with a disorder/"disorder" have the right to decide whether to cure the disorder in themselves, and in new babies with it.
That seems strange to me. Certainly in the case of children with autism, the child is not the only one suffering from it.
Father of a 20-year old severely autistic son once said to me that there's still part of him that hopes that one day his son will turn to him and say "OK, Dad, joke's over - wanna go for a pint?"
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Okay, now you're really making the case for finding a cure for conservatism.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Okay, now you're really making the case for finding a cure for conservatism.
You think it's conservative to want to have a conversation with your child?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
A cure for Conservatism? That would be the Glorious Socialist Revolution.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Erroneous Monk - when will you get it into your thick skull that LGBT people do not require a cure of any kind. They do not have a disorder, they don't harm other people (any more than heterosexuals do).
The only problem is the way they are treated - especially by those in the Church who should know better if they listened to anything Jesus said. In fact I would say that the Church should be leading the way.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
I was talking about autism. I think that's what my post says, isn't it?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I was talking about autism. I think that's what my post says, isn't it?
The autism was an analogy for the need of a cure and the choice given to the person who has it - in relation to homosexuals.
Do you think homosexuals need or should be offered a cure, if there were such a thing?
If so, see my post above.
If not I apologise for jumping on you.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Okay, now you're really making the case for finding a cure for conservatism.
You think it's conservative to want to have a conversation with your child?
No, I think that if the measure we're using is capacity to cause suffering in others, then narrow-minded conservatism (which, as I said, shows evidence of a genetic component) is an extremely serious condition.
My remark wasn't intended to relate to autism in the slightest, only to the logic that you're employing. Sorry if that was too abstract for you.
You are in fact raising an interesting point. And I don't share Boogie's desire to jump on you, although I would share her observation that "the suffering of others" isn't really a concept that makes a lot of sense in the homosexuality context. But personally I didn't read you as making any claim that homosexuality causes suffering in others.
[ 11. August 2015, 10:10: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I was talking about autism. I think that's what my post says, isn't it?
The autism was an analogy for the need of a cure and the choice given to the person who has it - in relation to homosexuals.
Do you think homosexuals need or should be offered a cure, if there were such a thing?
No, of course not. I don't think that sexual preference is an illness or disability and no I don't think it needs curing. And apology accepted.
I was just interested in/challenged by the idea that, as a parent, accepting/loving your child would mean that when it comes to all "difference" you would see it as always, only, their decision as to whether to have "normalising" treatment (hypothetically, in many cases, since there is no treatment) for a condition that made them "not normal".
My daughter has a very slight facial asymmetry - a ptosis - one eyelid hangs lower than the other. My approach towards it has been that we monitor development of her vision. if development of her vision is compromised, we have the surgery now - because otherwise it will affect her learning and her experience in the classroom. if development of her vision *isn't* affected, we leave it alone, help her to understand it, and if she wants plastic surgery when she's older, support her through that.
But I'm pretty sure that if, the next time we go to the eye hospital, they said that surgery now was the best thing for her vision, I'd just say "Do it now." I wouldn't worry about whether it's what she wants, or whether she has come to see her asymmetry as a part of herself.
Or, who would think twice now about correcting a cleft palate in a baby? You wouldn't wait to find out how they felt about it.
It gets a bit more complicated when it comes to autism. But in the case of my friend who, iIthink, if he had the choice the day his son was born, to give him a magical autism cure, would have taken it - does that mean he doesn't love/accept his son as he is? I think that is a bit harsh on him.
So I guess the issue for the discussion here is that it *isn't* a good analogy....
But - separate from the issue of sexuality - the question of what is "difference" and what is "disability/disorder" is not always clear cut.
[ 11. August 2015, 10:12: Message edited by: Erroneous Monk ]
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Okay, now you're really making the case for finding a cure for conservatism.
You think it's conservative to want to have a conversation with your child?
No, I think that if the measure we're using is capacity to cause suffering in others, then narrow-minded conservatism (which, as I said, shows evidence of a genetic component) is an extremely serious condition.
My remark wasn't intended to relate to autism in the slightest, only to the logic that you're employing. Sorry if that was too abstract for you.
Wow but my cogs are turning slowly today. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Could you fetch me a coffee please.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
Let's not kid ourselves about a cure for autism. It's not going to happen. Very often when people talk about curing autism, what they actually mean is genetic testing that would allow parents to abort a foetus so they never have to raise an autistic kid. That's another reason why many ASD people take issue with the "cure" rhetoric. You're not going to find the magic medicine that completely rewires someone's brain and makes them neurotypical. Hell it's not like we can even do that with Down's, and we know what's going on there with genes. Test and abort has become the norm for Down's.
Probably if we ever find a gay gene the test and abort option is the furthest we'll get.
Therapies that help autistic people to cope with the world and to live independent lives are not a cure. They don't make anyone less autistic. I think we'll make a lot of progress in this area and it'll make raising that autistic kid a lot easier, and it'll make life easier for autistic people too. But it's not ever going to be a cure.
Incidentally there's a good bit of crossover here, since I believe ASD women (like me!) have about a 65% occurance of self-identifying as bisexual (like me!). I know, I know, citation needed and all. No time to find it just now.
So if genetic testing becomes available, I predict it's going to fuck with some fundie brains as the opposition to homosexuality does battle with the opposition to abortion.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Erroneous Monk - when will you get it into your thick skull that LGBT people do not require a cure of any kind. They do not have a disorder, they don't harm other people (any more than heterosexuals do).
You have defined sexual preference as accidental, just like hair colour might be, rather than as having a normal function and impairments thereof, just like being normal vs. long / short sighted or even blind might be. Is there any particular reason why you think so? Having very strong feelings about it doesn't really count...
Relating all this to genetics is really a distraction. Then we are talking about genetic variability vs. genetic defects. But the judgement which one it is really comes from the functional level discussed above - a mutation in hair colour would generally be considered as part of the variability, not as a defect. Whereas congenital blindness would generally be considered as a defect, not as variability. What homosexuality should count as is not really "in the genes", even if it should turn out that it depends strongly on genetics. The only way I could see how this question gets advanced by genetics is if some cell process is clearly going wrong and this (and only this) directly causes homosexuality. Then we could declare "defect" at the cell level, without considering higher functionality. But this is unlikely.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
So if genetic testing becomes available, I predict it's going to fuck with some fundie brains as the opposition to homosexuality does battle with the opposition to abortion.
Oh, and won't that be glorious to watch...
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Erroneous Monk - when will you get it into your thick skull that LGBT people do not require a cure of any kind. They do not have a disorder, they don't harm other people (any more than heterosexuals do).
You have defined sexual preference as accidental, just like hair colour might be, rather than as having a normal function and impairments thereof, just like being normal vs. long / short sighted or even blind might be. Is there any particular reason why you think so? Having very strong feelings about it doesn't really count...
My brother's father in law was a Yorkshire farmer. He was married and had six children before he came out as gay in his 60s. He had a very tough time, as did his wife. Long before he came out, three of his children came out as gay. Three are heterosexual. This is the reason for my strong feelings that there is no choice involved in sexuality and that we need to accept people's sexuality entirely on how they identify. Nothing else.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Relating all this to genetics is really a distraction. Then we are talking about genetic variability vs. genetic defects. But the judgement which one it is really comes from the functional level discussed above - a mutation in hair colour would generally be considered as part of the variability, not as a defect. Whereas congenital blindness would generally be considered as a defect, not as variability. What homosexuality should count as is not really "in the genes", even if it should turn out that it depends strongly on genetics.
I agree.
Looking at genetics is a total distraction from the real problem (how LGBT people are treated even though they are equal under the law.
I believe Lesbian, Bisexual, Gay and Transexual are all variations in human sexuality and we should all have equality under the law. None of us know how or why these variations occur - and it doesn't really matter.
I also believe that the Church should have been saying this for years (all of the Church but especially the leaders)
[ 11. August 2015, 11:57: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My brother's father in law was a Yorkshire farmer. He was married and had six children before he came out as gay in his 60s. He had a very tough time, as did his wife. Long before he came out, three of his children came out as gay. Three are heterosexual. This is the reason for my strong feelings that there is no choice involved in sexuality and that we need to accept people's sexuality entirely on how they identify. Nothing else.
We almost never choose to have impairments, disabilities, etc. Few people have chosen to be shortsighted, for example. This lack of choice however does not make being shortsighted "normal" in a functional sense. So I'm afraid that "lack of choice" is no good reason at all here, no matter how impressed you were by its effects in one specific case.
If it can be shown that somebody has no choice in a matter, then this means they are not culpable. We of course know that not all homosexuality is "inescapable". There are bisexuals, for example, and teenage homosexual experimentation which does not stick is supposedly quite common. However, if there is "inescapable" homosexuality, then a person should not be be morally blamed for having these attractions. As it happens, none of the mainstream churches do that (at least not any longer).
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I believe Lesbian, Bisexual, Gay and Transexual are all variations in human sexuality and we should all have equality under the law. None of us know how or why these variations occur - and it doesn't really matter. I also believe that the Church should have been saying this for years (all of the Church but especially the leaders)
A capitalist, a communist and an anarchist all have different attitudes to the concept of "property", which can lead to very different actions as far as for example "your" land is concerned. Yet while our state is somewhat indifferent to the ideology we might hold, it is decidedly not indifferent to the kind of actions that can follow from these ideologies. The capitalist ideology is normative, and actions that are not in accord with it are frowned upon. And if you deviate too much from this in what you actually do, then the state will not tolerate it.
This hopefully shows that we do not generally declare "all things equal" across the board, for any sort of action. Indeed, we have very specific ideas about what sort of things should be treated "as equal" in spite of clearly being different. There are real issues here. It is simply not obvious that all sexual actions should have the same value to us. (It may be obvious that most of our compatriots think so now, but that's basically a "might makes right" argument.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Dear Russ,
I like you a lot, I really do. I think your posts are well intended and thoughtful and that's all I ask on a message board. We, the dominant liberal faction of this board, are already in danger of too many boring threads where we all share our outrage in a self-congratulatory manner. So please don't leave.
However. Your habit of signing your posts as though they were letters, rather than comments within a discussion, are a little bit irritating in the best of circumstances and maddening in the worst.
Yours sincerely,
Twilight
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
I don't mind someone making posts look like letters, exactly, but I have to admit the "one size fits all" of the "Best Wishes" signature can come off as a bit fake, especially in the heat of conversation where it seems clear that the "Best Wishes" becomes a magic formula that gets one of the hook.
Not unlike "In Christian love, of course..."
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
We of course know that not all homosexuality is "inescapable". There are bisexuals, for example, and teenage homosexual experimentation which does not stick is supposedly quite common.
Aaaaaand we're back to equating homosexuality with "having sex with a person of the same sex".
Bisexuals are not part-time homosexuals.
I am not gay because I have sex with men. I was gay for almost two decades without having anything even approaching "sex" with anyone. I could've been gay my entire life without having sex. I'm gay because Jonathan Rhys Meyers makes my heart race and my knees go weak, but I look at Keira Knightley and think "wow, isn't she lovely".
[ 11. August 2015, 14:09: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
IngoB: surely it's up to you to demonstrate it if you consider a variation to be harmful, and if you wish to prohibit an action evidence that it cannot coexist with the societally preferred action without causing harm.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Keira Knightley
Known in our household as "Twice" Knightley...
[ 11. August 2015, 14:09: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It's probably worth mentioning at this point that I was discussing Bend It Like Beckham with a work colleague last week. Can't remember exactly why.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm gay because Jonathan Rhys Meyers makes my heart race and my knees go weak
Nobody, on or off the screen, really makes my heart race or my knees go weak. Am I asexual?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm gay because Jonathan Rhys Meyers makes my heart race and my knees go weak
Nobody, on or off the screen, really makes my heart race or my knees go weak. Am I asexual?
*shrug* You tell me. Maybe it's simply the case that these aren't your "symptoms". I'm not trying to prescribe that everyone has my "symptoms", I'm simply trying to point out that this is an effect that men have on me and women don't.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
A capitalist, a communist and an anarchist all have different attitudes to the concept of "property", which can lead to very different actions as far as for example "your" land is concerned. Yet while our state is somewhat indifferent to the ideology we might hold, it is decidedly not indifferent to the kind of actions that can follow from these ideologies. The capitalist ideology is normative, and actions that are not in accord with it are frowned upon. And if you deviate too much from this in what you actually do, then the state will not tolerate it.
This hopefully shows that we do not generally declare "all things equal" across the board, for any sort of action. Indeed, we have very specific ideas about what sort of things should be treated "as equal" in spite of clearly being different. There are real issues here. It is simply not obvious that all sexual actions should have the same value to us. (It may be obvious that most of our compatriots think so now, but that's basically a "might makes right" argument.)
This shows that things that affect others are the purview of the government. Somebody being twitterpated by a person of the same sex, or two blokes marrying and having sex, do not impinge upon others. You may think they are immoral, which is all well and good. But that does not mean that your personal morals should be imposed on them via the government. The government is not in the business of imposing morals, except when those morals happen to coincide with what makes for a well-functioning society, and especially inasmuch as one person's actions harm another. And neither you nor anybody else has shown how private, consensual sexual behavior between two people harms anyone.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
.... we have very specific ideas about what sort of things should be treated "as equal" in spite of clearly being different.
And homosexual sex is very clearly one of them. It's a variation and the action of having homosexual sex does no harm at all.
I would have been deprived of a lovely sister-in-law had her father been able to come out before he married, but much heartache and harm would have been prevented. There is a great deal of harm in suppressing sexuality of the sort which causes no harm and is not deviant in any way.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm gay because Jonathan Rhys Meyers makes my heart race and my knees go weak
Nobody, on or off the screen, really makes my heart race or my knees go weak. Am I asexual?
Maybe. I am and no one makes me want to jump them. I try to explain it to people by likening it to them knowing a person is attractive but that person not being the gender they like so there isn't anything sexual there. Granted since I don't really know what sexual attraction is supposed to feel like I am flying a bit blind but I do my best.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
The day I saw Jonathan Rhys Meyers in "The Magnificent Ambersons," was the day I knew I was a dirty old woman.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
We of course know that...
It's been my experience on the internet that this phrase is usually followed by an unsubstantiated assertion. Given that you follow by confusing sexual acts and sexuality, you've simply acted like a stereotype.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
We of course know that...
It's been my experience on the internet that this phrase is usually followed by an unsubstantiated assertion.
Is there another kind of assertion?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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