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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Terms of address for people in ministry
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I'm going to assume that your church has someone who is in some form of leadership position - even if you're an anarcho-syndicalist commune taking turns to act as a sort of executive-officer-for-the-week.
I know we all use different words to describe these people - priest, pastor, minister etc (and, these all have slightly different meanings in regard to the "job description"). I'm not really interested in the job title we use.
What do you call "people in ministry" in different circumstances? If your leader is John Smith or Jane Smith, what terms of address do you use?
Would you be comfortable talking to them and simply calling them John or Jane? Would there be times when you would be more formal, and times when less formal. "That was a good sermon there Mr Smith" as you leave the church, but maybe over tea it would be "John, what did you think of the game last night?".
In your bulletin, would you have "Worship this morning will be led by Rev Smith", or "by Jane Smith"? Does your website say "Our vicar [replace as appropriate] is John Smith", or "Rev Smith" or "Mrs Smith" or "Rev Mr John Smith"?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
In the Untied Methodist Church convention and practice are two different things.
The Conference usually refer to a clergy person in print as "The Rev. Soandso," pastor of Podunk UMC. Superiors and peers will address us by first name.
The congregations vary as to form of address, but here in the South most pastors are referred to as "Brother Soandso" (if a male) or by first name (either male or female). In print it may often be "Bro. Soandso."
I like for mine to call me "Pastor" and to refer to me in print as "the Rev. Circuit Rider" or "Pastor Circuit Rider."
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
At my church, when you address clergy directly, it is usually by first name only. We live in a casual part of the world, it doesn't take long for any professional relationship to get to a first name basis.
When speaking of clergy to someone else, it is either only the first name, or "Mother first name" or "Father first name." Usually the first, but in the announcements, if anyone interested in a retreat or book group is to talk to a clergy member, it is the latter.
Although occasionally, when I feel that the occasion requires a tongue in cheek mock formality, I have been known to go for "Mother Rector."
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
At my place the clergy are normally Father or Mother Firstname. We have a retired priest on the team who is also a Minor Canon. He is usually addressed as Father Firstname, but occasionally simply by his first name. If we're being formal, then we call him Canon Surname and if being really formal then it's The Rev'd Canon Firstname Surname.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
We're on a first name basis. Most sermons will be delivered by Debbie, Roger, Faith, Steve or Abby.
The only time a more ecclesiastically conservative title would be used is if that is preferred by a visiting speaker (e.g. if they prefer to be called Canon Joe Richardson).
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Occasionally tempted by a Mr Yeatman-style 'Your Reverence'. Always think of our female vicar as Father Firstname but she is slightly eccentric and I don't know whether anyone else does or whether anyone has ever actually called her that.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Our church caretaker calls me "Your Lordship" and has even bought a mug to match.
However her tongue is kept very firmly in her cheek!
Otherwise I am just "Andrew" or "our Minister" to all and sundry (especially sundry!)
[ 06. November 2015, 09:44: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
It isn't simply the preferences of leaders, is it?
At the church where Mrs Wuntoo attends, the minister is often introduced at the start of the service as 'Revd Firstname Surname'. The majority of the congregation and most of the lay leadership are of African / Caribbean / Asian background and it is my impression that this determines their more formal acknowledgement. For most other activities the minister is simply known by Firstname.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
It took me quite some time before I was comfortable calling the new rector by his first name without a Father ahead of it - and longer after that before I'd address him without the Father on the hand-shaking line. A bishop is Bishop Firstname when being referred to, and just plain bishop otherwise.
Never, never is it the Reverend Surname. The Reverend Ms/Mr Surname, the Reverend Jane Surname are both right. I can't tell you why, it just is.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Title: The Rev. Fr. John Doe (followed by initials of order, if appropriate)
Address: Father Doe
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Would you be comfortable talking to them and simply calling them John or Jane? Would there be times when you would be more formal, and times when less formal.
Our recent priests have been Father Firstname (male) and Pastor Firstname (female). (We had a visiting priest who was Mother Firstname once; to me that seems less common in the US than the UK.)
I refer to the priests as "Father John" and "Pastor Jane", but address them as "John" and "Jane" in person. The last person I called "Father Surname" was my school chaplain.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Never, never is it the Reverend Surname. The Reverend Ms/Mr Surname, the Reverend Jane Surname are both right. I can't tell you why, it just is.
Heh... at the infant school where I go and take assemblies from time to time (and where I'm a governor), I'm known as "Reverend Smith". I did once suggest to the head that it should be something else, but she screwed her face up like that. So Reverend Smith has stuck, even if it's wrong.
At church, I'm "Stephen", "Steve-O" (my mum would be very cross if she heard someone call me that) or "Oi, you!". If they're being polite...
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
He's Father + first name. Some older parishioners address him as "Rector".
He gets cross when called Reverend + surname.
He tries to explain this to people by saying that 'Reverend' works (grammatically) like 'late'. When he is dead he will be "the late John Doe" not "the late Doe'.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
When I was in parish ministry, "Father firstname" was the standard address. It didn't really bother me if people left off the title, which some did sometimes. Now I'm back in the university world, I have an odd double existence. Faculty universally call me by my first name (one asked permission to do this); students I'm in classes with are a mix between calling me just by my first name and by father; undergrads that I know through campus ministry contexts mostly seem to want to call me "Father lastname." I do all I can to drop hints that "Father firstname" would be more appropriate, but most don't pick up on it.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
On an envelope: The Rev'd name name (or whatever).
In person: Father name.
Our local bishop is a friend so he is X unless there are unknowns or parishioners around.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
And in a newspaper article, shouldn't it be "Mr. X" etc.?
i.e. "The service was conducted by the Revd. John Smith. In his address, Mr. Smith said ...".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
The folks at Crockford give some ideas ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Here it tends to be first name in general, at start of service Rev. Firstname Lastname (or if a lay leader Mrs/Ms/Mr/Dr/Prof Firstname Lastname as appropriate) often with a quick note as to who we are if clearly visitors in.
Though one place it is Rev. Firstname Lastname when been spoken about, and Mr. Lastname when spoken to, some places maintain traditions. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posts: 103 | From: somewhere over the border | Registered: Apr 2010
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And in a newspaper article, shouldn't it be "Mr. X" etc.?
i.e. "The service was conducted by the Revd. John Smith. In his address, Mr. Smith said ...".
When the Church Times stopped being a (high church) party paper it rather controversially began referring to all priests as 'Mr' - even those who preferred, and were usually known as, 'Father'. It seems now to have reinstated 'Father' - at least in the case of disgraced clergy from the Diocese of Chichester.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
In my ecclesiastical life, I introduce myself to people as Father Weber. In practice, I accept being called just about anything but "Reverend."
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And in a newspaper article, shouldn't it be "Mr. X" etc.?
i.e. "The service was conducted by the Revd. John Smith. In his address, Mr. Smith said ...".
When the Church Times stopped being a (high church) party paper it rather controversially began referring to all priests as 'Mr' - even those who preferred, and were usually known as, 'Father'. It seems now to have reinstated 'Father' - at least in the case of disgraced clergy from the Diocese of Chichester.
In my previous diocese, the diocesan paper used Mr and Ms, which always "sounded" strange in my ears. My current diocese's paper uses "Fr" for male priests, though "Mother" doesn't seem to have caught on (although there is or was one "Amma"). They aren't consistent, though, and I have seen stories where they refer to evangelical clergy as "Mr". (Deacons are always "Deacon").
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
At my joint it's strictly first-name basis. In conversation, or if you look at our website (for example), all clergy are referred to by first names. (As am I, as a staff person.)
Our rector is a woman. When she arrived, we had some conversations about what children should call her. She settled on Rev. Firstname, which she agrees isn't ideal, but Mother just isn't a fit for our church (her male predecessor was also Firstname, not Father). And she doesn't care for Pastor, as a couple of female priests in our diocese have chosen for titles.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Crucifer
Shipmate
# 523
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Posted
In our parish, it's currently Fr. 'Firstname' for the rector, whether addressing him or in conversation about him. The previous rector was always Fr. 'Surname' as are the honorary assistants.
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Crucifer
Posts: 232 | From: Diocese of Rupert's Land, Canada | Registered: Jun 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
Currently Fr. Firstname OR Fr. Lastname for the priest-in-charge; Fr. Lastname for the assistants. Mother Lastname for female priests at other parishes (we haven't got one). Superior of the convent at our parish is Reverend Mother or Sister First Two Names. Priests often called simply "Father" in person. "The peace of the Lord be always with you." "And also with you, Father."
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Inevitably when I'm in evangelical circles, all clergy go by their first name - I know a (female) Baptist pastor is known as Pastor Jane (not her real name!) when in the local community and I know some churches especially in the US use Pastor Firstname, but it's not something I've come across often here.
All the high church male clergy I know go by Father Firstname. I've not known a Mother Firstname in the UK - all the high church female clergy I know go by their first name.
All clergy are addressed officially as The Revd Firstname Surname, or The Revd Dr Firstname Surname. Ordained religious are The Revd Sister (or Brother) Religiousname.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
A now-retired Bishop totally ignored all customary usage and made his own rules (he knew more about everything than anyone else!). Priests were called either by their order (Priest Smith) or by their position (Rector Jones). It drove everyone in the Diocese crazy.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
... All the high church male clergy I know go by Father Firstname. I've not known a Mother Firstname in the UK ...
No. I've not encountered that usage in the UK either. I'm not suggesting it's unknown, but I think it's rare. I also suspect it isn't catching on.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
Among American Presbyterians, at least in my experience, ministers are typically addressed by their first names. Some people, including children, may use Mr./Ms. Smith or Dr. Smith. I am hearing "Pastor Firstname” more and more often, particularly from children or in a context where just a first name may seem too informal or unclear, e.g., "Those wishing to participate, please speak to Pastor Chris after the service."
In a worship bulletin, ministers and staff are typically identified in a separate section in ways such as "Pastor: Rev. Chris Smith." (Sadly, "the Rev." is rarely seen anymore.) Which minister is leading what parts of the service is rarely identified, with one exception. If a congregation has more than one minister, the one preaching will be identified.
There is one Presbyterian peculiarity: at presbytery , synod and General Assembly level, a minister will often be identified as "TE Chris Smith." "TE" stands for "teaching elder," the technical term for one ordained to ministry of Word and Sacrament. By contrast, I would be "RE Nick Tamen," "RE" standing for "ruling elder."
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Lincoln Imp
Apprentice
# 17123
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Posted
In our Diocese of polar opposites officially they are "Fr. Christian name" or "Rvd. Surname", and that's what you would use on anything official like pewsheets, websites and press releases. The press usually alter it into something totally unheard of in the Diocese like "Father + Surname". I've only come across one "Mother" in our neck of the woods, women are either Christian name only, or Revd. Christian name. Personally I address them with what I am comfortable with, and this can be anything from first name only to "Reverend Sir/ Ma'am" or "Padre" & "Vicar". When I'm feeling mischievous I call them "FB" or "FT" for Fathers T & B. In writing it is "Fr.T" or "Fr.B". These were not very popular with the gentlemen in question who felt themselves addressed as "Farty" & "Furby". And to wind them up I will call them by the opposite of what they prefer: e.g. "Father" or "Padre" for an Evangelical, Methodist, Baptist or Lutheran, and "Pastor" or "Minister" for a Catholic. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds. (Tennyson)
Posts: 30 | Registered: May 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Oh yes. Just as I am tempted on the very rare occasions that I meet a particularly chummy dignitary to come out with 'My Lord Bishop', 'Mr Dean', etc.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Never, never is it the Reverend Surname. The Reverend Ms/Mr Surname, the Reverend Jane Surname are both right. I can't tell you why, it just is.
I was given this explanation many years ago: reverend is an adjective, so to call someone simply Reverend Smith is like calling him Small Smith or Handsome Smith, while the Reverend John Smith or the Reverend Mr Smith is correct. You would then address him as Mr Smith – but never, of course, just Reverend, which I think is a tendency of non-church people being a bit confused, especially if what comes out in referring to him is Reverent Smith.
First names are normal here at all levels – I would probably feel able to address the Moderator of Assembly by his/her first name.
On notices of forthcoming services we do list Rev Firstname Surname.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Never, never is it the Reverend Surname. The Reverend Ms/Mr Surname, the Reverend Jane Surname are both right. I can't tell you why, it just is.
I was given this explanation many years ago: reverend is an adjective, so to call someone simply Reverend Smith is like calling him Small Smith or Handsome Smith, while the Reverend John Smith or the Reverend Mr Smith is correct. ...
Reverend is similar in usage to Sir. As indicated, you can add an additional title (like Mr) and then forego the first name, like the Rev. Dr. Jones.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
I have noticed that clergy who call each other Father are reluctant to acknowledge that some women would like to be called Mthr. Not an issue for me due to my previous profession - people who don't want to use my first name can address me as Dr aig. This works well in schools too.
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That's not how we do it here.......
Posts: 464 | From: the middle bit at the bottom slightly to the right | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've noticed that in all but the spikiest CofE churches these days, the clergy are known by their first names - at least among their own congregations. The same applies with non-conformist churches, of course.
Even in snake-belly low Anglican settings - like the one in which my wife was brought up - this is a comparatively recent development. When she was a girl the vicar's wife used to refer to him as 'vicar' in public. 'More tea, vicar?'
My wife used to wonder whether she called him that in private. She wouldn't have been surprised if this had proven to be the case.
The only exceptions I've found are among the RCs and the Orthodox and very spikey Anglo-Catholics where it's always 'Father This ...' or 'Father That ...'
Conversely, of course, in those 'new church' and restorationist settings which were very proud of their informality, the use of first-names for the 'apostles' and elders could lull you into a false sense of security.
The leaders in these set-ups didn't have mitres, copes and fancy titles but the apparent bon-homie and mateyness could belie an authoritarianism more rigid than anything I've seen across the more sacramental end of things where fancy titles abound.
It's often not about how you label things but the underlying reality.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Never, never is it the Reverend Surname. The Reverend Ms/Mr Surname, the Reverend Jane Surname are both right. I can't tell you why, it just is.
I was given this explanation many years ago: reverend is an adjective, so to call someone simply Reverend Smith is like calling him Small Smith or Handsome Smith, while the Reverend John Smith or the Reverend Mr Smith is correct. ...
Reverend is similar in usage to Sir. As indicated, you can add an additional title (like Mr) and then forego the first name, like the Rev. Dr. Jones.
It's not really like 'Sir". You can't say Reverend+first name as you would in 'Sir John'. Its exactly like 'The Honourable' or 'The Right Honourable'. The catch is most people are not very familiar with these. As I suggested above 'The Reverend' works the same was as 'The Late'.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aig:
I have noticed that clergy who call each other Father are reluctant to acknowledge that some women would like to be called Mthr. Not an issue for me due to my previous profession - people who don't want to use my first name can address me as Dr aig. This works well in schools too.
Not my experience at all of liberal A-C male clergy. But then again 'Mother' is so uncommon in the UK - I just remembered that I've heard it once, but not from the priest in question.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Even in snake-belly low Anglican settings - like the one in which my wife was brought up - this is a comparatively recent development. When she was a girl the vicar's wife used to refer to him as 'vicar' in public. 'More tea, vicar?'
My wife used to wonder whether she called him that in private. She wouldn't have been surprised if this had proven to be the case.
IIRC Trollope has Mrs Grantly addressing her husband as 'Archdeacon' even in private. Though how he would know whether or not this was true to life, I don't know.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Never, never is it the Reverend Surname. The Reverend Ms/Mr Surname, the Reverend Jane Surname are both right. I can't tell you why, it just is.
I was given this explanation many years ago: reverend is an adjective, so to call someone simply Reverend Smith is like calling him Small Smith or Handsome Smith, while the Reverend John Smith or the Reverend Mr Smith is correct. ...
Reverend is similar in usage to Sir. As indicated, you can add an additional title (like Mr) and then forego the first name, like the Rev. Dr. Jones.
It's not really like 'Sir". You can't say Reverend+first name as you would in 'Sir John'. Its exactly like 'The Honourable' or 'The Right Honourable'. The catch is most people are not very familiar with these. As I suggested above 'The Reverend' works the same was as 'The Late'.
That's right – 'late' is also an adjective. So:
The Late Mr Smith
The Reverend Mr Smith
The handsome Mr Smith.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Even in snake-belly low Anglican settings - like the one in which my wife was brought up - this is a comparatively recent development. When she was a girl the vicar's wife used to refer to him as 'vicar' in public. 'More tea, vicar?'
My wife used to wonder whether she called him that in private. She wouldn't have been surprised if this had proven to be the case.
IIRC Trollope has Mrs Grantly addressing her husband as 'Archdeacon' even in private. Though how he would know whether or not this was true to life, I don't know.
I recall a retired Archdeacon of Cornwall telling me that he liked being retired as people now used his first name again. His wife called him by his name, but pretty well everyone over the previous ten years had called him archdeacon, with the exception (natch) of other archdeacons.
Perhaps I move in different circles, but I have not heard the term Mother used of clergy in Canada. Father is not universally used, given the low/middle nature of Canadian Anglicans, but it is usually as Father Firstname. Reverend Secondname is so common that it is quite impossible to fight it-- it has even entered circles where it shouldn't have been thought of: one of my first acts as a public servant in 1980 was to change a ministerial letter addressed to Reverend Scott to Archbishop Scott, referring the startled correspondence writers to The Canadian Style for how to address a primate.
I usually try to find out what would most annoy the cleric involved, then use that style.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
Some friends of mine live in a small village in darkest Northants. The vicar is also chaplain of the local school, and they refer to her as 'Revd Jacqueline.' I assumed this was a joke until I had occasion to enquire about Advent Sunday. I emailed he church and the reply was signed 'Reverend Jacqueline.'
As far as I can tell, Father/Bishop firstname are common in England 9if 'father' is au courant) and Father/Bishop lastname standard in the US.
Places that don't use 'father' tend to unvarnished fistname on both sides of the pond as far as I can tell.
Does anyone refer to the Cathedral dean as 'Dean firstname?'
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Among American Presbyterians, at least in my experience, ministers are typically addressed by their first names. Some people, including children, may use Mr./Ms. Smith or Dr. Smith. I am hearing "Pastor Firstname” more and more often, particularly from children or in a context where just a first name may seem too informal or unclear, e.g., "Those wishing to participate, please speak to Pastor Chris after the service."
[...]
There is one Presbyterian peculiarity: at presbytery , synod and General Assembly level, a minister will often be identified as "TE Chris Smith." "TE" stands for "teaching elder," the technical term for one ordained to ministry of Word and Sacrament. By contrast, I would be "RE Nick Tamen," "RE" standing for "ruling elder."
Brazilian Presby here.
We aren't a "last name culture" at all, so the clash with styles, titles and forms of address begins right there. Rev. Firstname is considered a perfectly correct and respectful way of orally addressing a minister. Rev. Lastname may sound like a foreign affectation.
Also, if there is any difference between styles and titles in Portuguese, we don't learn it. We use Rev. (Anglicans only - Revd.) as we would Mr., Ms. or Dr. (actually, instead of them, except for those who make a point of signing "Rev. Dr."). It is also used often as a noun: "Go talk to the Reverend!"
"Pastor" describes the position a minister holds when in charge of a congregation: Rev. Firstname Lastname, Pastor, 1st Presbyterian Church. It gets used as a title (Pr.) in "lower" churches and the ones influenced by Baptists and Pentecostals.
Methodists use Rev./Pr. in the the same way and conditions as the Presbyterians.
German Lutherans will also use Pastor (P.) as a title, and LCMS Lutherans are pretty much divided between P. and Rev. AFAIK.
As for Presbytery, Synod and GA meetings, we usually stick to "Rev." and "Presb." for TEs and REs. We're not much into that equality business Westminster was all about.
[ 10. November 2015, 01:36: Message edited by: Episcoterian ]
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
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Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It tends to change over time according to how high church the incoming vicar is - it used to be 'Father' but currently tends to be Christian name, with perhaps 'Revd.' tagged on the front for children and slightly more formal occasions.
At the recent APCM, when the chairman thought he ought to be even more formal, the poor man got accidentally upgraded to 'Rt. Revd' and his wife wondered whether she should start to make him a Hat.
When my b-in-law was Archdeacon, it was family humour to call him 'Archie' - rather fitting in an informal occasion, don't you think?
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Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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AndyB
Shipmate
# 10186
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Posted
If I know them, first name. Otherwise, Mr (or Dr or Mrs) surname or Bishop first name as the case may be.
Bishop firstname also extends to those members of the House of Bishops whom I didn't know when they were parish clergy or haven't otherwise obtained permission to dispense with the title.
To an extent, when you hit your 40s and enter the world of having a minister/teaching elder/rector/pastor younger than you, you have an increasing right to use first names.
It is also worth recalling that if you can't speak to someone respectfully using their first name, using a more formal title isn't going to make you any more respectful!
Posts: 149 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2005
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
Brazilian Presby here.
...
"Pastor" describes the position a minister holds when in charge of a congregation: Rev. Firstname Lastname, Pastor, 1st Presbyterian Church.
It's the same here. It's only been within the last few decades that I've heard ministers addressed as "Pastor Firstname." Interestingly, I've tended to hear it in what might be called "higher" churches. And I've rarely heard it outside a congregational context—that is to say, I sometimes hear members of a congregation call their own pastor (or more likely, encourage their children to call their own pastor) "Pastor Firstname," but I don't hear people use that style of address for other ministers, nor do I usually hear it in non-church settings. So, I might ask my child if she talked to "Pastor Chris" about something, but when I see the pastor, I'm going to say "Hello, Chris."
I do wonder if a Lutheran influence is at work, as "Pastor Firstname" is very common among Lutherans in these parts.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Nick Tamen: I do wonder if a Lutheran influence is at work, as "Pastor Firstname" is very common among Lutherans in these parts.
Yes. In agreement with what Episcoterian has already said, this is the only thing I hear among IECLB ("German") Lutherans in Brazil. In fact, I don't think I've ever encountered the term Rev. there.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
In my experience the term 'Pastor' being used in front of someone's name - as in 'Pastor Joe' or 'Pastor Freda' is more of a Pentecostal thing - and although it seems to have died out to a large extent within the older Pentecostal denominations - the AoG, Elim and the Apostolic Church here in the UK - it seems to have had a resurgence among the more health/wealth fraternity - and it also seems common across the board in black-led and black majority churches.
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Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
As a School Chaplain, one of my students was the grandson of a (retired) bishop. One time I referenced his grandfather in conversation and said 'Oh, what do you call him? Grandpa, Pop?'. 'Bishop' was his reply.
I later heard his own daughter quite routinely address him as Bishop. I found it creepy.
In other news, here are the titles I have been given:
1. Deacon Jugular - As a deacon. Also Brother Jugular by some older clergy (apparently it had been the custom in the Diocese at one stage). Once I went to teach a fill-in RE class for my Rector and the teacher asked me my Christian name then introduced me as Father Jugular.
2. Reverend Surname - When I was first ordained priest I was appointed to a new school as the first full-time Chaplain. I was very uncomfortable being addressed as Father, being not yet 25. Also a previous part-time Chaplain had been addressed as Reverend Surname. Soon the children called me Rev. I would have made different choices today, but I was young and needed the money.
3. Father Jugular - on arrival at a new school appointment, I was, without consultation, introduced in the the school newsletter and at assembly as Father Jugular. There had been several previous Chaplains addressed in this way, though female clergy had tended to go for Reverend.
4. Jugular - most of my parishioners call me by my first name. I sign things as The Reverend Jugular Surname, and in the newsletter it will say 'for more information please talk to Fr. Jugular'. The children call me Father Jugular. One of them, aged around 13, said 'how old do I have to be to call you Jugular?' and I said something like 'There's no rule. We address each other by our baptismal names. Some adults always call me Father, and many parents want their children to address adults with a title. So its up to you and your parents, really.' He said 'righto Jugular'. Then he went red and silent like he had done something very naughty.
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
LOL I'm definitely not clergy, but I often work with groups associated with the Catholic Church in Latin America, giving trainings etc. It happens rather often that these people call me padre ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Keith Jones, when Dean of Exeter, used to tell a funny story about when he was in conversation with a workman who clearly wasn't sure how to address him. To put him at his ease, Keith said 'Call me Dean'. 'OK, Dean,' came back the response, 'Call me Wayne'.
And all was well from then on.
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Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
There's an interesting diversity in our congregation ... to most people (including young and old), I'm Mark. That's the same at the school in my capacity whether leading assemblies or as a Governor.
For a few people in the New Jerusalem - predominantly friends from Africa or the Caribbean, I'm Pastor mark. To one dear old lady from the carribbean to standard greeting is "Reverend" (just that) followed by a massive hug. To friends from Asia I'm Pastor (just that).
English less formal, others much more so - esp the Polish ladies who are RC but come to our Toddler/Parent Group. They are used to strict RC Priests I guess and It always surprises them that I talk to them! That's true even for those who have been in England for a long time, speak excellent English and better educated than I am.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
It seems the word "reverend" is found once in the KJV, Psalm 111:9 and it is talking about God, not someone else. So, I won't call someone that.
That and probably because of Matthew 23 and Mark 12:38-39 we keep it on a first name basis unless we are being introduced to someone new or you need to use the last name to specify which Bill, David or Matt you're talking about. While we have elders, deacons and a preacher, I'd expect any and all of them would feel like they are not doing a good job if someone feels so distant from them that the first name is not used.
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Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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