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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Church coffee & hospitality
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
I was directed to this interesting piece about hospitality and how churches reflect that in their post-service coffee. I wondered what others thought of it.
I've been in a few awkward circumstances where, as I tend to come prepared with my offering there is either a second offering or the kind of donations bowl as described in the blog post. I then end up offering nothing more as I'm too tight fisted to put in my credit card with the PIN scribbled on an attached post-it note.
n.b. posted in Ecclesiantics as it seems to have a fair overlap with Mystery Worshipper discussions.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Not a comment as such ... but the Diocese of Bristol have an amusing video which touches on this sort of thing. (The video is at the bottom of the page; the points it make are available in written form on a link further up).
In my last church we put on a Sunday lunch several times a year. The people who ran it insisted that it be free to all comers, and refused to cater if we made any kind of appeal. (We told "regulars" to put a bit extra into the collection plate if they wanted to make a contribution).
What Lawrence has said reminds me of going to the National Railway Museum a few years ago. Entrance is free, but you had to run a gamut of people asking for donations and needed to be strong to refuse! I have even gone to at least one free museum where you had to pass people in ticket booths who asked you to make "a suggested donation" - hardly welcoming, although I know they need the cash.
I have been in churches - mostly "New Churches" - which have explicitly announced at Offering time that they do not want visitors to contribute, as this is the responsibility of regular members. Not sure what happens at coffee time though!
[ 09. September 2016, 13:36: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Some years ago, the church we attended used to have people turn up for the coffee and biscuits from the street who hadn't been in the service.
Some, I know for a fact, arrived having been at another church to do the same thing.
How do you think of that?
It seems to me that hospitality is a two-way thing, so for me it is reasonable to expect something from someone who is consuming your tea-and-biscuits intended for the congregation.
Otherwise it's a bit of a free-for-all isn't it? Oh sorry, were you about to use this nave? Only I've just laid out my 12 course meal here for my dinner guests..
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arse
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
I tend to feel that coffee hospitality should not come with strings. If someone from the street shows up, it may be that they are hungry for something more than coffee and sweet rolls. It may be a perfect opportunity to enact Matt:25 values.
The "something in return" might be a sense of real fellowship with the neighbors.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
Missed the edit window:
The "something" may be a chance to reach out to those who are "hungry" and to do so, knowing that you and other churches in the area are engaged in the same level of giving.
Unless, there is a line around the block, charging for the coffee (even if the charge is only a requirement that a person be at the service) may give the impression that the congregation is not interested in their street brothers and sisters.
I'd be surprised if anyone is bold enough to ask for a multi-course meal in such a situation. And if the nave is booked for some other activity, coffee would have to be stopped anyway, no matter who is there.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
(I always have some cash on me, so dropping off a dollar or two for coffee (or to pick up a newspaper at the store, or etc is not a problem.)
I never met a "coffee" with a contribution jar in USA. There may be some. At a meal it's neither common nor uncommon but most church meals are potluck so you've already made a contribution.
One local church has been struggling with how to pay for "coffee" after they switched from simple juice and cookies (brought and paid for by volunteers) to wanting lots of food (thinking a good spread will help attract people to the church).
For a while they were asking people to sign up to host coffee which meant everything from show up early to make coffee and set up and stay late to clean up, and also buy and pay for and bring food. The same few people could do all that both financially and in time costs. So a year later they switched to asking several families to host together. A year later they had the church contribute $40 each week for purchasing the food (not enough I suspect but a help).
Recently they've gone to "if someone volunteers, we'll have coffee; if no one volunteers, we won't."
At a different church volunteers bring the food, one week its some cheese and crackers, another weeks it may be a bountiful table, another week - whatever. A different crew sign up to set up and clean, so those providing food just bring food, not do the whole job.
One man fussed that some hostesses bring too much food, some weeks you can make a generous breakfast out of it, but others said what's the harm if that's what someone wants to bring? His concern was two-fold, that the purpose of "coffee" was to mingle and chat, not sit down and eat. But also as expressed above, abundant free food is a magnet for homeless, and that invites (or ushers in fear of) lots of problems we aren't set up to deal with especially on a Sunday morning when we are about to leave the building unmanned and unlocked as we head across the street to the next service.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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BabyWombat
Shipmate
# 18552
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Posted
If coffee is to be “hospitality” then IMHO it comes generously and without strings. No miserly measuring of the coffee granules, no begging bowl. Just warm greetings and conversation. If there are nibblies, well and good, but please, no cutting the doughnuts in half or quarters. We are living out God’s generosity, and if we are squeezed-faced about it we certainly say something about our concept of God.
At one point many years ago in NYC spouse and I attended different TEC parishes. I’d attend at ‘mine’ at 9, then walk some 15 blocks to spouse’s church, arriving just in time for coffee. This parish was dirt poor compared to the one I attended. Coffee hour was strong coffee and plenty of it, and parishioner leftovers. There would be a small dish of left over tuna salad, a half eaten bag of pretzels, bits of cake or pie, a small plate of cookies. The variety of food was as great as the variety of the people -- Black/White/Hispanic, unemployed-on-welfare/city court judges, straight/gay. It was the happiest and most welcoming coffee hour I’ve ever attended. Need I say it? – I became a member there quickly enough.
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Let us, with a gladsome mind…..
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
That sounds like a wonderful church with a very welcoming sense of the many ways in which we can break bread together.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
Sounds like Kingdom life Wombat ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I think after church coffee should be free. Good grief, it's not costing that much!
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G.K. Chesterton
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
Before I was - um - before I left my most recent post I was planning a training scheme whereby young people in and around the parish could be trained as baristas serving coffee to street people, worshippers and passers-by on a Sunday morning - costs to be covered by the mission budget and "koha", the Māori notion of grace-gift, from those who could afford to contribute.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think after church coffee should be free. Good grief, it's not costing that much!
I agree. (But it's coffee plus decaf plus tea plus decaf tea plus various things people put in tea or coffee plus juice for the kiddies.)
I've told only 10% of the congregation ever set foot in coffee, so a fee for "coffee" might be seen as a "special program user fee" rather than a fee on a general activity of the church.
But it does seem odd to be charged for coffee when I just came from the worship program and dropped a donation, when coffee (or tea) is such a common social greeting.
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
I've never heard of a 'donation' for after-church coffee. At our suburban church there aren't any street folk who might drop in for a cuppa, but if there were I'd assume they needed a gift, not to be stung for cash.
Yes, our rostered tea/coffee people bring the food, and it may be anything from plain biscuits to a batch of muffins or other plain baking. Of course once a month it's birthday cake.
Tea and coffee are free trade; members have an opportunity to buy it as part of a monthly consignment, and a few cents extra on each item covers the Sunday sociable drinks.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think after church coffee should be free. Good grief, it's not costing that much!
I agree. (But it's coffee plus decaf plus tea plus decaf tea plus various things people put in tea or coffee plus juice for the kiddies.)
I've told only 10% of the congregation ever set foot in coffee,
I'm hardly surprised. Wouldn't it scald?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Being like the Queen, I don't carry money, so leave it to Mr. C. to worry about. But I've never noticed our small donations bowl cause any offence - some people put money in, others don't. What's the big deal?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
It's not a problem for us, either.
But much of the point of the article seemed to be the contrast between the size and prominence of the request (?demand) for Donations, and the minginess of the way in which coffee was dispensed, and its quality.
[ 10. September 2016, 14:54: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
The dread word in this context is "unsustainable". It can have many meanings, but most of them boil down to "we can't be arsed with this any more". Once the over-prominent donation plate is slightly less full than those who put it there would like, coffee is declared unsustainable, and withdrawn, in favour of an unlimited supply of religiomanic cant.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I was at a church once (don't remember which one -- I won't be back) where they sold tickets at the door of the parish hall. No tickee, no coffee.
Most places I've been to have a bowl for voluntary donations. That seems to cover it nicely.
At a church in New York where I sang in the choir before moving out here to Arizona, various church organizations would take turns being responsible for the coffee. Of course, the choir always put out the nicest spread. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Baptist Trainman:
quote:
I have been in churches - mostly "New Churches" - which have explicitly announced at Offering time that they do not want visitors to contribute, as this is the responsibility of regular members. Not sure what happens at coffee time though!
At a church, where I used to worship, the financial situation was sufficiently parlous that the Vicar was moved to explain the financial facts of life to the congregation. As it happened, we had a Baptism on that Sunday so he prefaced his remarks with: "Baptism family, you can ignore this, you're our guests". Inevitably, the Baptism family ponied up in sympathy with our plight. I was counting the collection with the Churchwarden and she remarked "can we get him to do this, every time we have a Baptism?"
Coffee, you put a pot out and donations are welcome. I've never known a church where this didn't happen. The partial exception to this was an inner city parish, on the Bishops hit list, where the money from the coffee all went to a local hospice and the person on the coffee rota paid for the drinks and biscuits. But then, frankly, if most churches were as bloody brilliant as most inner city churches are we'd achieve the conversion of England before Christmas.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Our host congregation put a bowl out, but the coffee (brewed), tea, and doughnuts are all open for the taking, and nobody is either "helping" or supervising those who come as to what they take or whether they give. I'm okay with that, and I've made change out of the basket before, too. And some people put in extra to cover the costs of food etc. for those who don't, for whatever reasons.
I wouldn't be okay with anybody supervising the table in a way which caused anybody to feel they were being monitored, either for consumption ("you took two doughnuts!") or for giving. What monitoring I've done myself has been only to prevent the children from taking half a cup of sugar/creamer and adding a single spoon of coffee to it. Yes, I mean that.
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
But that's no different than the kind of monitoring you have to do of any small children who haven't learned proper buffet manners yet, and have no fear of diabetes.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I do not believe that at our church there has ever been a collection of money at the coffee table. We're grinding around this hospitality thing, trying to goose membership, and that involves raking people in under just about any pretext.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Not a coffee anecdote, but one about the 'donations' plate and non-church members:
An elderly lady of our (inner city) church who I admire arranged with an older man who plays an instrument, that he would play in a local supermarket this morning with a bowl out to collect for church funds. We owe a lot of money on a roof repair, and we have an aged and not wealthy congregation. The junior church were invited to turn out and help shoppers pack their shopping into bags, with bowls out for small donations. This happens now and then in our shops - it's not so unusual - sometimes for youth groups or kids sports clubs etc.
I felt bad about this - I'd have done it more happily for Christian Aid, and I expected people to say 'pay for your own bloody roof'. But I knew not many would go, and my kids were mildly enthusiastic - so we went.
And it was great! The till ladies chatted with me and my kids (we took a till each), shoppers sometimes said 'no thanks' but often joined the conversation and usually dropped some change in anyway, people were sympathetic about collecting to keep the roof on a church - it didn't seem an illegitimate thing to collect for, to anyone I spoke to.
I'd do it again. I came away really surprised at the absence of hostility from the general population, extending to a feeling of warmth from many of the shop ladies and shoppers. We won't have raised much money, but it felt oddly like a witness.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BabyWombat:
If there are nibblies, well and good, but please, no cutting the doughnuts in half or quarters.
I actually prefer having the doughnuts quartered. My appetite is usually only big enough for half a doughnut - if whole ones are on offer, I'll usually decline (or feel really uncomfortable about my leftover half sitting conspicuously on the table). If quarters are offered, I'll take one - and then, usually, go back for seconds.
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I wouldn't be okay with anybody supervising the table in a way which caused anybody to feel they were being monitored. . . . What monitoring I've done myself has been only to prevent the children from taking half a cup of sugar/creamer and adding a single spoon of coffee to it. . . . But that's no different than the kind of monitoring you have to do of any small children who haven't learned proper buffet manners yet, and have no fear of diabetes.
Now that you've brought it up . . . I've been put off at many an after-service coffee where the children mobbed the sweets table, grabbing whatever they wanted and pawing everything else, leaving nothing for the adults to help themselves to. It does make you wonder if anyone is teaching manners anymore.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
What monitoring I've done myself has been only to prevent the children from taking half a cup of sugar/creamer and adding a single spoon of coffee to it. . . . But that's no different than the kind of monitoring you have to do of any small children who haven't learned proper buffet manners yet...
Now that you've brought it up . . . I've been put off at many an after-service coffee where the children mobbed the sweets table, grabbing whatever they wanted and pawing everything else, leaving nothing for the adults to help themselves to. It does make you wonder if anyone is teaching manners anymore.
At my Mom's church the program was rearranged to put the sermon last, the kids marched out right before sermon, their Sunday school let out 15-20 minutes after the adult portion ended, giving adults some time for adult chit chat and first choice of sweets before having to mind the kiddies.
Somebody in that church did good logistical thinking!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
A church near me has plans to employ a barista to serve coffee before the service and for people to bring their coffee in with them to slurp during the service. Their rationale is that it will bring people to church. I'm afraid that if that is what it takes to get people to that church then I don't want to go there.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
A friend described to me a recent ordination service in a formerly Anglo-catholic church, now a 'church plant', in London. As the procession of ordinands, clergy and bishop entered, they passed several people sitting on sofas in the aisles, supping cappuccini and smoothies. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
A friend described to me a recent ordination service in a formerly Anglo-catholic church, now a 'church plant', in London. As the procession of ordinands, clergy and bishop entered, they passed several people sitting on sofas in the aisles, supping cappuccini and smoothies.
It's Rev!
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
A friend described to me a recent ordination service in a formerly Anglo-catholic church, now a 'church plant', in London. As the procession of ordinands, clergy and bishop entered, they passed several people sitting on sofas in the aisles, supping cappuccini and smoothies.
This is why exactly?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
A friend described to me a recent ordination service in a formerly Anglo-catholic church, now a 'church plant', in London. As the procession of ordinands, clergy and bishop entered, they passed several people sitting on sofas in the aisles, supping cappuccini and smoothies.
This is why exactly?
Because of the big fuck you to the whole liturgy it implies. It's a sacrament, and should be the focus of the community's attention.
And the disintegration of community that it suggests to get from where that church was to that position is, to my mind, definitely worthy of tears.
Goes to show I'm not entirely cured of my anglo tendencies, or at least that I can still recognise a sacrament that is a huge part of the community's life when I see it.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
A friend described to me a recent ordination service in a formerly Anglo-catholic church, now a 'church plant', in London. As the procession of ordinands, clergy and bishop entered, they passed several people sitting on sofas in the aisles, supping cappuccini and smoothies.
This is why exactly?
Because of the big fuck you to the whole liturgy it implies. It's a sacrament, and should be the focus of the community's attention.
And the disintegration of community that it suggests to get from where that church was to that position is, to my mind, definitely worthy of tears.
Goes to show I'm not entirely cured of my anglo tendencies, or at least that I can still recognise a sacrament that is a huge part of the community's life when I see it.
If it was a Mass, then I agree with you. If it was a Service of the Word aimed at enquirers, then not so much.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Because of the big fuck you to the whole liturgy it implies. It's a sacrament, and should be the focus of the community's attention.
And the disintegration of community that it suggests to get from where that church was to that position is, to my mind, definitely worthy of tears.
Goes to show I'm not entirely cured of my anglo tendencies, or at least that I can still recognise a sacrament that is a huge part of the community's life when I see it. [
So they can't be paying attention because they're "sitting on a sofa" and drinking coffee.
Please come around to my flat and try to persuade my family that they're not paying proper attention to a film they're watching because they're doing the same.
I don't think there is anything magical about sitting on a hard pew that means you're somehow more respectful and paying more attention to the bishop parading in. In fact, been in the congregation when the archbishop walked into the quire at Canterbury, I've felt on several occasions that he felt a bit uncomfortable with everyone staring at him.
[ 11. September 2016, 19:49: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
You mean there's really a church where they serve doughnuts? I'm changing my allegiance!
We've started serving the same coffee but now in mugs rather than plastic cups. It's amazing the difference - it feels so much better and more like being at home rather than in some grotty institution.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
We've started serving the same coffee but now in mugs rather than plastic cups. It's amazing the difference - it feels so much better and more like being at home rather than in some grotty institution.
I went to a church this year that had incredibly fancy china teacups - all mismatched, because they were op shop purchases, but it still made things feel a bit more special.
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
You mean there's really a church where they serve doughnuts? I'm changing my allegiance!
Every Lutheran church I know does doughnuts. Come to the dark side!
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
You mean there's really a church where they serve doughnuts? I'm changing my allegiance!
My boys were quite a bit happier about the move to our current church (when I was hired on staff) after their first hospitality hour: assorted muffins, bagels, donuts, cookies, small sandwiches, cheese & crackers, sometimes cupcakes...
We like to eat.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
You mean there's really a church where they serve doughnuts? I'm changing my allegiance!
They did them at the New Frontiers place that my sister in law frequented, but that wasn't sufficient motivation. Wild horses and sedation would be required. I lasted about fifteen minutes before I had to leave.
We have a full meal after our services. Yesterday the theme was Indian. We have that theme a lot.
[ 12. September 2016, 09:13: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
For assorted snacks, I've always found New Frontiers churches to be the best. Croissants, muffins and coffee tend to get served both before and after the service.
In my home church, the cost of serving food & drink is all rolled up with the building hire so is funded from the general offering. We occasionally get people coming in asking for money, but there's a policy of giving food & drink instead, which some are happy with, though we've had the occasional rant.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
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Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
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Originally posted by Callan:
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Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
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Originally posted by Angloid:
A friend described to me a recent ordination service in a formerly Anglo-catholic church, now a 'church plant', in London. As the procession of ordinands, clergy and bishop entered, they passed several people sitting on sofas in the aisles, supping cappuccini and smoothies.
This is why exactly?
Because of the big fuck you to the whole liturgy it implies. It's a sacrament, and should be the focus of the community's attention.
And the disintegration of community that it suggests to get from where that church was to that position is, to my mind, definitely worthy of tears.
Goes to show I'm not entirely cured of my anglo tendencies, or at least that I can still recognise a sacrament that is a huge part of the community's life when I see it.
If it was a Mass, then I agree with you. If it was a Service of the Word aimed at enquirers, then not so much.
It was an ordination. I'm not sure that ordinations outside cathedrals happen without a eucharist, because in my experience ordinations to the diaconate are always done in cathedrals - and even then they are usually done as part of a eucharist. I don't see how the community can be properly gathered if part of it is eating or serving doughnuts.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
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Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Because of the big fuck you to the whole liturgy it implies. It's a sacrament, and should be the focus of the community's attention.
And the disintegration of community that it suggests to get from where that church was to that position is, to my mind, definitely worthy of tears.
Goes to show I'm not entirely cured of my anglo tendencies, or at least that I can still recognise a sacrament that is a huge part of the community's life when I see it. [
So they can't be paying attention because they're "sitting on a sofa" and drinking coffee.
Please come around to my flat and try to persuade my family that they're not paying proper attention to a film they're watching because they're doing the same.
I don't think there is anything magical about sitting on a hard pew that means you're somehow more respectful and paying more attention to the bishop parading in. In fact, been in the congregation when the archbishop walked into the quire at Canterbury, I've felt on several occasions that he felt a bit uncomfortable with everyone staring at him.
This exactly. You cannot draw the inference you are drawing without having some kind of psychic insight into people's minds, which you do not have.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
This exactly. You cannot draw the inference you are drawing without having some kind of psychic insight into people's minds, which you do not have.
No, I'm not. If I'm doing anything, I'm inferring a setup rather like my local such conversion, where there is an entire coffee shop complete with the required infrastructure, which is pretty much self-sufficient and has little, if anything, to do with the worship space (however defined). I'm also inferring that this infrastructure requires staffing, meaning that the coffee shop itself is an alternative focus of activity for others as well as for its customers.
At that point, the hospitality of God is being celebrated liturgically. The simultaneous functioning of a coffee shop confuses things in a very unhelpful way.
I appreciate that the liturgy could be structured differently, something like an agape meal, and at that point the coffee shop could be at very least the source of distributed food, and the cafe layout would be entirely appropriate, but that's not the picture created in my mind.
[ 12. September 2016, 11:23: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
If the pattern of worship at a particular church is informal, with hard pews replaced by sofas and it being normal for people to buy a coffee on the way to church and then drink it during the start of worship (which is, after all, perfectly acceptable in many places of work with no one saying that people aren't concentrating on their job just because they have coffee with them), then why should the pattern of worship be any different just because it's a service welcoming a new minister?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If the pattern of worship at a particular church is informal, with hard pews replaced by sofas and it being normal for people to buy a coffee on the way to church and then drink it during the start of worship (which is, after all, perfectly acceptable in many places of work with no one saying that people aren't concentrating on their job just because they have coffee with them), then why should the pattern of worship be any different just because it's a service welcoming a new minister?
It's not welcoming a new minister - that would be an installation. It's an ordination, i.e. a priesting.
This may be regarded as a bit of weird churchiness, but it is a sacrament, and as such, within the consecrated space, the appropriate focus of attention. I wouldn't personally choose to have the congregation on sofas because standing up and kneeling is harder than from ordinary chairs, but my problem is with the lack of focus on the sacrament.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Angloid didn't mention a coffee shop, or anywhere else, serving the coffee and smoothies being drunk. Nor whether people were getting up during the service to get a refill. There does seem to be a difference between a church selling coffee etc during the service, and a church where people bring coffee into the service (whether or not bought on the premises prior to the service).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
my problem is with the lack of focus on the sacrament.
Then, you still need to demonstrate that drinking coffee = lack of focus on the sacrament.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Angloid didn't mention a coffee shop, or anywhere else, serving the coffee and smoothies being drunk. Nor whether people were getting up during the service to get a refill. There does seem to be a difference between a church selling coffee etc during the service, and a church where people bring coffee into the service (whether or not bought on the premises prior to the service).
It strikes me that the real objection was a perceived lack of reverence. Which makes one ask (i) what actually is reverence; and (ii) whether we have decided that certain actions are reverent and others are not?
I'll be honest: I prefer "formal" church and I'm not too keen on people bringing in drinks; but I would be wary of saying that those who "do church" in different ways are any less connected to God (or paying less attention to what's going on).
[ 12. September 2016, 11:41: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I'd also be uncomfortable about bringing drinks into the church service (though, while in Japan I did take a bottle of water on hot days).
But, at the same time the Epistles make it clear that one model of church that was common in the first century was to meet over a meal. A meal substantive enough to be the only decent meal some people got. Pauls complaint wasn't that people were eating during the other activities of the meeting, but that some people ate so much that there was none left for latecomers (who, presumably, were those who had to work until released by their masters and hence most likely to be the poorest members of the church who needed the meal most), and some even drank enough to be drunk.
Compared to drinking enough wine to be drunk, bringing a paper cup of coffee into the service is hardly worth mentioning.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I think a cup of coffee during a long service or Evensong (where the congregation often don't do an awful lot) is entirely appropriate.
To me the issues are entirely practical (spills, injuries, etc) and nothing about attention. Given that people often wander into Cathedral services late and wear a much wider range of clothing than is usually seen in other kinds of church, I'd think the potential distraction of someone drinking from a mug is minimal.
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Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The Epistles make it clear that one model of church that was common in the first century was to meet over a meal.
Yes. To me there is a real question as to whether they had "services" in the way we would understand them.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
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Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
This exactly. You cannot draw the inference you are drawing without having some kind of psychic insight into people's minds, which you do not have.
No, I'm not. If I'm doing anything, I'm inferring a setup rather like my local such conversion
Why would you infer that when there was nothing to suggest that in the original post?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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