In short. I agree.

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My point is this. Whilst you guys are debating the finer points of theology (and TULIP is Calvinism, only part of the reformation, and the reformation is only part of Christianity), and setting up doctrinal boundaries (which you can't agree on), the world moves on, looks on Christianity with disdain, and looks elsewhere. It seems to me that you equate your own brand of fundamentalist Calvinism with Christianity; so any other theological position is heresy, and equate yourself with the font of all knowledge explaining what we poor heretics are too stupid, too godless or too lacking in Biblical knowledge to understand for ourselves.

First it was theistic evolutionists who were beyond your pale. Now we find it's anyone with a whiff of Arminian theology. Who next?

That's me. Spleen vented. Better things to move on to.

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And preach it, brother Karl!
[I}(your link doesn't work, however - where'd you say this?)[/I]

I've always felt that (as I've mentioned in the Moby & Bono thread) we'll be pretty surprised at who is (or isn't) in Heaven (should we make it there ourselves). Way beyond muttering 4 spiritual laws or somesuch.

I can't define what salvation is, cos I do believe that there's only one person that can decide that. And it' not me.

Of course, you do realize we're all hanging out in Hell, dont' you?

Some of you, at least, appear to be missing the point about the creeds. They are not the foundation of the faith per se, but rather a summary of what God has chosen to reveal to us throughout the ages, culminating with the Incarnation, Crucifixion, Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus Christ. Has there been subsequent revelation? Yes, of course. Has there been any more significant revelation? Not a chance in hell. You can NOT get any more substantial revelation of God than God entering into our time and space.

However, as I said, the creeds are a formulation of what God has chosen to reveal to us. They are the quickest and most efficient way of pointing to God, who is and should always be the rock of our faith. They are a shorthand, if you will, of the collective teachings of those who've encountered God, in all the Persons, throughout time.

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Originally posted by Erin:
...And the church has been THE primary witness to God throughout the ages. If you are going to dismiss teachings on things that you don't like simply because you think it's placing more hoops in place, I would just point out that scripture was gathered and decided upon by these very same people, so you need to pitch that, too. In which case you are left with absolutely nothing witnessing to Jesus' life, death and resurrection.

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Sorry Erin. We can disagree with the creeds but still maintain a belief in the witness of scripture.

[edited because something is wrong with my keyboard, and dammit this is one of the perks of putting in all this time]

"The church has been THE primary witness to God throughout the ages."
HUH?! I would say that the church has been conspicuously absent for most of the ages, and there are still plenty of places where it isn't the primary witness to God (IMHO).

I'm still waiting for someone to answer Erin's question "What do you need saving from?"

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Originally posted by nicolemrw:
no, it's based on knowing.

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You still haven't answered the question, so I will repeat it: HOW DO YOU KNOW? Did Jesus come to you and say "well, Nicole, here I am, and these are all the things you need to know about me, and btw, you need saving"? Or did you maybe pick up just the teensiest bit of knowledge of Jesus from -- gasp! -- the church, whose teachings on God and Jesus are summed up in the creeds?

JLG...

Let me rephrase then, to make it a little simpler. The church began long before the ICR, it began with the formation of the Jewish religion. The Jewish history is our history, too, since Christianity was originally a Jewish sect. The church militant, aka the earthly members of the communion of saints, has always been the witness to God.

"How do you know Jesus is your Saviour? And what do you need saving from?"

Well, we need saving from ourselves and the complete lack of any kind of morality that mankind is so good at showing, given half a chance.

And how do we know? Simple answer is that at some point that somebody has told us. Without the witness of the church and without Christian teaching how would any of us even be aware of it today?

But that does not mean that the Church has got it all completely right over the years and every branch of every denomination is guilty of, at some time, choosing its one little bit of scripture to use as doctrine . . .

The creeds as 'this is what we believe in a nutshell' - great.

The creeds as 'this is what you have to believe or else' - I have a problem.

The creeds may define Christianity but I do not think they define a Christian. Semantics? Perhaps, perhaps not.

I do think that Athanasius was wrong to start with 'Quiquunque vult...' even if what he said we should believe was correct... it too much smacks of salvation by theology. St Peter at the pearly gates checking us up against Calvin's Institutes

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Isn't this getting potentially Purgatorial?

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Originally posted by Will:
Erin,
You sound more lawful than most Jews. Did not Paul preach fervently against this? Therefore do not "creeds" and such go directly against this?

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Hmmmm... this is interesting. Because I, having gone back through to reread my posts, have not found a single law in any of them. So perhaps you can provide a cite or two to back up your accusation.

(hm, which translation shall I choose today?)

"So you will be saved, if you honestly say, 'Jesus is Lord', and if you believe with all your heart that God raised him from death."

Actually there are plenty of other bits of Scripture that impose other conditions or requirements, and they do NOT all add up, to be frank - because I don't honestly think God wanted to give us any absolute means to judge our fellow man. Look at how prescriptive we get even with what he did give us!

...because I don't honestly think God wanted to give us any absolute means to judge our fellow man. Look at how prescriptive we get even with what he did give us!

How do other's know they are saved?

Um, I don't think you can make that statement definitively really. Kind of limits God don't you think. If no one spoke, the rocks would [my paraphrase]. I don't deny the important of the church but that is not the only place / way God works.

And I don't mean touchy-feely warm fuzzy New Age "God is love, the beauty of the stars tells me so" . I mean really know it was the God of the Universe. As a first encounter, why not? You can put structure around the experience and ground them in right doctrine then but it doesn't always go the first way.

i don't think you want to ask "how do you know", because thats a fundimentally unanswerable question, except by philosophers in airy realms i've never ascended to except for philosophy 101 as an elective in college.

i think what you are really asking is "how did you learn". and the answer to that is, i learned through experience, through investigation, and through reflection. i spent my high school years driving my sunday school teacher crazy by questioning every assertion he made, by disagreeing with almost everything, and by thinking and listening.

in college i hung out with mystics, polytheists, and one extremly hypocritical and obnoxious born-again christian who almost ruined the whole religion for me. i took a class in myth and mysticism, and read about experiences had by people from all religious backgrounds...

around that time i had my own direct experience, which btw, had nothing specifically christian about it.

then five years ago, i came into a spiritual fellowship. not christian, not religious at all, spiritual. and there i've met many people whos lives have been saved (quite literally, from death) by god, but not through any church or religion.

which doesn't mean i don't go to church every sunday, and listen to my minister (who does great sermons, even if i don't always agree). because god is there too... and its always good to worship god in community with others, even if you don't agree with them on every thing. but i don't make the mistake that thats the ONLY place to find god.

You know that Jesus is the answer. Fine. On what information did you base this decision? Somewhere, somehow, you had to figure out that Jesus is the one who can save you. Now, unless he came down from on high and sat there and had a talk with you face-to-face you HAD to get that knowledge from the teachings of the church. Whether you sat in a fundamentalist Bible study or had a one-on-one dialogue with someone who hasn't darkened the door of a church building in ten years is absolutely irrelevant to this. The church is what has preserved and witnessed to Jesus' life, death and resurrection since his Ascension and Pentecost.

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You know that Jesus is the answer. Fine. On what information did
you base this decision? Somewhere, somehow, you had to figure
out that Jesus is the one who can save you.

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i'm afraid you are making an unfounded assumption here.

this is, after all, posted on the i am not a chritian thread.

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Originally posted by nicolemrw:
erin, i am truly sad for you that you feel that way, and i'm afraid that doesn't leave us anywhere to go in this discussion.

i'm afraid i have to with equal fervor say, you are wrong, and then drop the subject.

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erin, i am truly sad for you that you feel that way, and i'm afraid that doesn't leave us anywhere to go in this discussion.

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That's rubbish. We have started many a previous discussion with Erin's very statement on the old boards.

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No one will get to heaven without Jesus

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Originally posted by nicolemrw:
yes, but "your wrong, i'm right" isn't going to get us anywhere either. she said her belief, i said mine, i'm not going to change her mind, she's not going to change mine, and i don't see any reason to take it further, since nothing constructives going to come out of it.

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Uh, Nicole, your parting shot was a condescending "I feel very sad for you" with absolutely NO clarification of what you are talking about. I have the distinct feeling you are misattributing views to me that I do not hold, but you can't be bothered to clarify what you mean.

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besides, debates for purgatory, not hell, right? hells for ranting? well i did as much ranting as i'm gonna'.

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