homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Hell: I am not a Christian! (Page 3)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: I am not a Christian!
Pikachu
Shipmate
# 170

 - Posted      Profile for Pikachu     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yeah, yeah, I'm back...
Okay, back to the questions:
1) Do you - I mean YOU, personally need Jesus?
2) IF you personally need Jesus, why doesn't that person "over there" need Him? (If "that person over there" doesn't need Him, neither do you.)
(already dealt with question # 3.)
My whole point of asking question # 1 was to lead into question # 2. In other words:
I say that I need Jesus. Okay.
Let's say that my best friend is a non-Christian. What then? Do I....
-Never, ever bring up the subject?
-Tell them that they don't need Jesus, that all beliefs lead to Heaven? (But then, I don't need Jesus either in that case, do I? He has become simply a choice.)
-Tell them, don't worry, you're good enough, you've obeyed all the rules - well, almost; you've gone to enough church services, etc. -well, almost... (another reason that I need Jesus myself, because I'm not perfect)?
Shadow-lover, you are so right that this is a totally loaded question. What do we do when we talk to others about Jesus? Or do we say anything at all? This is why I am not assuming that everyone here would answer the first question with a "yes". If we say we need Jesus, are we being belligerent to tell others that they do, too? In case you think I go around pointing the finger at others, telling them that they need Jesus, - no, I don't. I'm afraid to. I'm afraid they'll be angry. So I keep my mouth shut.. but if I really believe that a person needs Jesus to be saved.. what do I do? Do I continue to keep my mouth shut concerning an issue of such vital importance, for fear of my friend getting angry at me for being "narrow-minded"? Or do I say, "whatever you believe is fine", and thus deny my own conviction that I need Jesus? Anybody who's reading this.. what do you do? I don't care if you answer me or not.. just think about it.
Shadow-lover: true, the Bible is not the only place I've learned about Jesus, either; I would say that the Bible is the first place I turn to, and where other sources agree with the Bible, I agree with them. I know the Bible well; I've found that there are certain truths (I call them truths, maybe someone else does not) that are constant throughout, in spite of the different human authors. My point about the Bible was the discussion of the more in-depth discussion of various points, not that you have to believe it 100 percent to be saved. Hey, any time anyone is willing to discuss the Bible.. and I'll discuss it with people who have various levels of belief concerning it, even if you don't believe it, I suppose I was the one backing off from that, I just know how fundamentalist I am concerning it.. Karl, we seem to be pretty similiar concerning Biblical beliefs.
(Oh, Shadow-lover, the "witness of the church" quote wasn't my post. Can't remember who that was, now. Sorry.)
Hi Ruth.. I'm not quite ready to assume anything about anybody on this website, but I've already said that. Some people, after reading what I stated about question #2 above, might actually think, "well, I guess I really don't need Jesus after all!" (I hope not!) Your two paragraphs starting with "I doubt very much.." : I agree with you. Totally. (Geez, did I really say that?)
Although there are some people who accept Christ as their Savior and that's it, no more. But for those of us who are hungry for more, let's go wherever we can to get "fed".
(Let's see.. telephone book.. dragon puppets.. local store selling dragon puppets..) Anybody know where I can get a dragon puppet????

--------------------
I know Jesus has a sense of humor, He made my cockatoo.

Posts: 53 | From: Cleveland, Ohio USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
frin

Drinking coffee for Jesus
# 9

 - Posted      Profile for frin   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Nope. My lion puppet - apparently perfect for playing Christ - came from a passing vietnamese puppet theatre company. Sadly I couldn't afford to splash out on a dragon as well.

'frin

--------------------
"Even the crocodile looks after her young" - Lamentations 4, remembering Erin.


Posts: 4496 | From: a library | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
# 292

 - Posted      Profile for Timothy the Obscure   Email Timothy the Obscure   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Just in case anybody thought this was getting too cozy...A few bald assertions that I might try to back up later:

1. All true knowledge of God arises from the direct experience of His presence and action in one's life. All else--scripture, tradition, authority, reason, etc.--is secondary and supplementary, only able to enlighten you to the extent that you are open to the leadings of the Spirit in your heart. This doesn't necessarily mean voices and visions--as someone suggested, human love can be a key to understanding God's love, and if one believes that all that is good comes from God...you complete the syllogism.

2. Human language is utterly incapable of formulating the truth about God. We are utterly incapable of making a single statement about God that is simply, literally true. We are like blind men fumbling around an infinite elephant, with nothing but metaphors and approximations, all of which prove false if taken too literally or pushed too far.

3. Because we are human, we live in language most of the time and need to express our experience in language. Therefore, we have to try to put our understanding of God--however incomplete and inadequate it may be--into words. Hence, creeds, confessions of faith, theologies. As long as we remember that they are all works in progress that can never be complete, rough sketches that can only hint at the real thing, we're okay. Deep experience of God may lead one to make a statement of faith; I doubt that assent to a creed leads to a deeper experience.

Regards,

Timothy

--------------------
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow


Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
TC
Shipmate
# 70

 - Posted      Profile for TC   Email TC   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Timothy,

Bold assertions indeed but good ones. My view of the bible has been that it is not where God ends so much as where He starts. I've experienced God's presence in many different places and ways and each experience has led me back to the truth about His character that I've gleaned by reading about it in the bible.

I don't think we can contain God the way some folk try to. He is true to His character but He does not always behave the way we expect Him to. I think there needs to be some mystery in the way we approach God for he is, as you say, We are like blind men fumbling around an infinite elephant, with nothing but metaphors and approximations....

I'm not saying anything new here other than I have found that I need a balance I deal with the knowledge of God and I have to remind myself that he is vastly beyond my capacity to completely know Him.

Selah

TC...

--------------------
'Perhaps the dream is dreaming us ... ' Sting, Soul Cages


Posts: 131 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
TC
Shipmate
# 70

 - Posted      Profile for TC   Email TC   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I really should re read before I hit 'post'.

What I meant in the 2nd para above is that when we approach God we need to remember that He is not completely 'knowable'. I liked what Tim wrote about us being like blind men but I didn't quite achieve the connection I wanted.

Sorry.

Bother.

TC...

--------------------
'Perhaps the dream is dreaming us ... ' Sting, Soul Cages


Posts: 131 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
frin

Drinking coffee for Jesus
# 9

 - Posted      Profile for frin   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Not the bloody elephant again. Trust me, if you took a blind man off to see an elephant he'd work out that it was an elephant.

I mean, unless you mistook it for a very tall hippo there isn't much you could get wrong with an elephant. Apart from its gender.

'frin

--------------------
"Even the crocodile looks after her young" - Lamentations 4, remembering Erin.


Posts: 4496 | From: a library | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
TC
Shipmate
# 70

 - Posted      Profile for TC   Email TC   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No, no 'frin ... it's no ordinary elephant, this is a bloody BIG elephant.

TC ... [who has never heard the elephant analogy]

--------------------
'Perhaps the dream is dreaming us ... ' Sting, Soul Cages


Posts: 131 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pikachu:
Let's say that my best friend is a non-Christian. What then? Do I....
-Never, ever bring up the subject?
-Tell them that they don't need Jesus, that all beliefs lead to Heaven? (But then, I don't need Jesus either in that case, do I? He has become simply a choice.)
-Tell them, don't worry, you're good enough, you've obeyed all the rules - well, almost; you've gone to enough church services, etc. -well, almost... (another reason that I need Jesus myself, because I'm not perfect)?

My dearest friend is in fact not a Christian. I don't do any of the above. I also do not tell her that she needs Jesus, though I believe that she does. When I was not a Christian, people telling me I needed Jesus were a good reason to stay very far away from the church.

What I do is to tell her about my own spiritual life and experiences. She listens carefully because after all she is a wonderful friend, and she is also actually very interested. And I pray for her.

Another thing about dragon puppets: if you don't get one from the right source and it if isn't blessed by a cleric at the proper season of the year, it won't work, and all will be for nought. You might as well be trying to use Elmo.


Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
SteveWal
Shipmate
# 307

 - Posted      Profile for SteveWal   Email SteveWal   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
George Fox once said, "Christ said this, the Apostles said that, but what do you say?"

There's nothing particularly wrong with the Creeds (apart from the fact that they reflect a rather Greek philosophical viewpoint): they are, as you say, good summing's up of faith.

But they are not the faith itself. Acceptance or non-acceptance of a set of beliefs is not faith, which is much more to do with trust in the love of God, as seen in the life, death and resurection of Christ certainly; but also as seen (imperfectly) in our own lives and in the lives of people around us.

I don't have trouble with creeds as such, except when they are used as sticks to beat people into submission, which is how the church has often used them. Instead of seeing that of God in someone else, we see a "heretic." Also, I think it's perfectly possible to follow Christ and not believe in the creeds, or parts of them; or to reinterpret them in a way that's rather more modern than philosophical ideas 2000 years out of date. The same with the Bible.

I do think they're still important as ways of summing up faith; but, as a Quaker who sometimes visits churches for the Eucharist, I tend not to say them. Not because I think they're totally wrong, but because my faith is in God, not a set of words.

--------------------
If they give you lined paper to write on, write across the lines. (Russian anarchist saying)


Posts: 208 | From: Manchester | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pikachu
Shipmate
# 170

 - Posted      Profile for Pikachu     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
My dearest friend is in fact not a Christian. I don't do any of the above. I also do not tell her that she needs Jesus, though I believe that she does. When I was not a Christian, people telling me I needed Jesus were a good reason to stay very far away from the church.

What I do is to tell her about my own spiritual life and experiences. She listens carefully because after all she is a wonderful friend, and she is also actually very interested. And I pray for her.


Hi Ruth.
what you say above.. that's pretty much the way I've been handling it. Case in point: for years my father-in-law has seen me reading the Bible, and he has seen my actions and heard my words. I've never discussed Jesus with him. I've prayed for him. And I believe that he needs Jesus as his Savior, although I've never told him that. About 2 months ago he started going to church. I had nothing to do with the circumstances that brought that about.. unless my prayers helped the circumstances along (a reason to never stop praying for something?). There have been other people in my life, such as my mother, and an old friend, who I have been praying for, while I keep silent about Jesus.. and they have started going to church, with no prompt from me except my prayers, unknown to them. I agree that if you try to shove Christianity down someone's throat, that can be a lot worse than staying silent.
I guess what I have a problem with is: when do we break the silence? Do we ever say, even timidly, lovingly, and softly, "yes.. you do need Christ as your Savior"? From what I've mentioned above, I know that people can come to Jesus without my direct intervention. But I mentioned once in my own church's bible study class that Jesus is the only way to salvation, and I immediately had about 5 people tell me I was wrong, how could I be so narrow-minded, etc. In my own Christian church. I didn't change my mind about what I said, but it was hard to take. Are you afraid for your friend in any way, concerning her beliefs/non-beliefs about Jesus? (If that question bothers you, well, it bothers me too, but I felt compelled to state it.) You keep responding to my posts and I'm grateful because I've found I'm not the only one having to deal with this..
TC & Timothy: very profound! I'm not quoting your posts here but I agree, God is a lot bigger than any of us can ever figure out until we get to the other side.. but.. what about Jesus? do we need Him? or is he just another piece of the elephant? Or.. although I believe that Jesus is the true way to salvation, I won't KNOW whether or not He's the true way to salvation until I get to the other side? Hmmm. Faith vs. truth. Tough one.

Another thing about dragon puppets: if you don't get one from the right source and it if isn't blessed by a cleric at the proper season of the year, it won't work, and all will be for nought. You might as well be trying to use Elmo.
I have an electronic plush Pikachu that talks.. will that work? Or, my dragon Beanie Baby?
I think we need elephant & hippo hand puppets. (I still have no clue what y'all are talkin' about, I'm an American.)

[formatting error corrected]

[ 08 June 2001: Message edited by: Erin ]

--------------------
I know Jesus has a sense of humor, He made my cockatoo.


Posts: 53 | From: Cleveland, Ohio USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pikachu
Shipmate
# 170

 - Posted      Profile for Pikachu     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Doggone it, most of my last post showed up as a quote attached to Ruth's quote..
Aw nuts. (and I was doing so well, too..)

--------------------
I know Jesus has a sense of humor, He made my cockatoo.

Posts: 53 | From: Cleveland, Ohio USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools