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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Internet Child Porn-Hundreds Arrested
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
Logician and others,
Just a hostly reminder not to offer any counselling/therapeutic advice on the public boards.
Viki, hellhost
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266
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Posted
A reasonable general challenge, Arch-. I think many others make grander claims, but I am unsubtle about it. See below.
A reasonable request, Moo. I am afraid I will disappoint, but here goes.
When I am feeling optimistic, I estimate that when one enters a discussion, there will be four groups. 30% will more or less agree with you, and the better sort will get you to refine your thought, will build on your statements, and will teach you something. Another 30% are determined to disagree, and would not accept a thing you say if you had a signed note from God. Another 10% are willing to be persuaded by good information. The last 30% is the most difficult. They believe they are in the 10% who are open to reason, but delude themselves. This group is usually the most intelligent (in the usual sense), witty, and socially enjoyable, but use this intelligence to play chess against themselves in any discussion. I really piss this group off.
That’s when I’m optimistic. More usually, I don’t believe that the 10% group exists. I don’t have any bibliography to support this view. It’s my position from observation. And I don't know how to categorize the numerous people who bring up irrelevancies or get what you say exactly backwards.
I usually only divide the groups accurately in retrospect. When I am in the thread, I tend to initially regard everyone as being in the 10% group, and I gradually get pissed off at the intrusions of two and a half (of the three) other groups and consign the whole lot to perdition. This is unfair to that magic 10%. Assuming of course, that they exist. Which I doubt.
Asking me to justify my claims with supporting data should be the most reasonable thing. It is the most reasonable thing. However, when people actually do challenge, I find they are never satisfied. Whatever credentials you bring are not enough (“Oh, but you’re not a psychonutitionist.”), your sources are always unreliable. If you make five points they go immediately to the one they hope they can wrestle to the ground, treat it as the support point for everything else, and disregard the four others. And they never learn anything.
Some of the people in this last group are quite transparent to me, probably because I am more like them than I would wish. I spend meeting times at work writing predictive notes to my neighbors. She will get back at me for that disagreement in about five minutes, and it will be an attack on something to do with gender... When he interviews that patient this afternoon, he will focus on her sexual history, and want to tell us about it tomorrow. Then he will prescribe the abusable drugs she is looking for... Jan will change the subject... I can’t do this with most people, but with those I can, my friends laugh: “How can you do that?”
I took care to build up credibility on this thread before making such dramatic statements. Go back over the posts. What seems implausible of what I have written? Given my background, which of my observations is something I am unlikely to really know about? If people want to simply disbelieve, fine. I hope you do not have a crisis that puts what I write to the test. But if you do, you won’t care that I’m arrogant. You’ll just want the right answer. I give you the glasses to try on. You judge whether it helps you see better.
I once worked with an elderly black waiter who frequently said “If you cain’t be told, you cain’t be taught.”
Viki, you are correct, and I have transgressed on that point. I have probably already said too much.
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formerly Logician
Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002
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Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266
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Posted
Too perfect!
Please check out the "absolutely speechless" thread for evidence supporting the above.
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formerly Logician
Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I am sure you are warning people with the best motives, Logician, but as I found out when trying to warn friends away from a psychologically and spiritually abusive situation people don't want to be told. I still felt I had to say 'be careful' even though I couldn't say 'don't go there'. And that was justified later when the friends said 'you were right' but they had to say that from experience of getting their fingers burned rather than just accepting my word for it.
To use an analogy, I spent a lot of time warning my children away from the hot grill pan when they were toddlers. But it wasn't until they had touched it and burned themselves that they knew what 'hot' meant. After that, they never forgot and never tried to touch it again!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
Logician,
You still have not said what you mean by "uncovering therapies."
And by your above posts, you seem to be saying that there are differing theories about most things in life.
But are you saying that I and others posting here are part of the awkward 10% ? If so, why not directly, if not let us know.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Aren't all SoF members considered to be the awkward 10%??! Isn't that why we are here? Before I gave up on Christian Union completely, we were divided up into groups. I discovered on a list that each group had been allocated one 'awkward one' so we were not all in the same group. Yes, you've guessed it, my name was down as one of the 'awkward ones' ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Logician calls anyone who doesn't agree with him 'awkward', n'est-ce pas? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Anyway, what has all this to do with the thread title? I'm beginning to lose the plot...... ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Anyway, what has all this to do with the thread title? I'm beginning to lose the plot......
I haven't lost the plot, but was wondering why this has changed from being a thread about something really important into self-justication by logician.
I have really appreciated his earlier posts on the subject. But if people want to discuss his 'arrogance' please bugger off and do it on another thread.
bb
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266
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Posted
A Nice Person has told me to take my own advice, shut up, and just do it.
It was pretty clear. For those even remotely interested, these are my sources, and I am sorry to have played this so long. I'll go somewhere else for awhile. (Daisymae, I mean therapies which seek to dig, regress, or uncover as an intentional practice, not those which deal with what comes up unbidden.)
I start with references of people I can personally vouch for as reasonable,
having worked with them or gone to one of their workshops. That group will
be New England based. I'll start with the web-based info.
Safer Society Varied, but generally good info.
Bright, practical people who have put their ideas into practice. They also
have a lot of good evaluative tools.
Anna Salter PhD, author of Sadistic vs. Non-sadistic Sexual Offenders;
Sexual Abuse . Also writes crime novels (Shiny Water; Fault Lines; White Lies; Prison Blues) which are a little didactic in nature, and lean toward
male-bashing. So I've heard. I've only read one, and liked it fine. The
rap against her is that she gets by on charm and emotion. I don't buy that
in the least. She is very clear, very experienced with both perps and
victims, very up on the research. Maybe people are jealous because she's
attractive. She was a feminist icon until she started carrying a handgun.
If I had to deal with her clientele, I would too.
Peter Loss, PhD. Runs the Rhode Island incarcerated Sex Offender Program.
Has designed excellent risk-assessment tools published by the National
National Clearinghouse on Family Violence in Ontario. Pioneered accountability
Programs, and weighting of 30 risk factors. Perps' lawyers hate him. I think he's a lot of fun, though he's
a little worn at this point (probably those lawyers). Also designed the
Massachusetts and Connecticut Incarcerated Sex Offender programs.
Crimes Against Children Research Center at University of New Hampshire; slanted toward the "all spanking is assault"
polarity, but very valuable. If you have caught news stories about studies
showing a decrease in sexual offenses in the 90's, these are the people who
did that research.
David Cantagallo
Just heard him speak today, hadn't seen him in oh, 4-5 years. Private
therapist who treats the DSO population at the Secure Psychiatric Unit at
the NH prison and at the Youth Development Center. Vanguard of group
therapy, accountability model, behavior chain and use of electronic
supports (videotape, polygraph, plethysmograph).
Counterpoint, sexual addiction model
Martin Kafka, MD, professor of psychiatry often in Harvard Medical School newsletter. THE pioneer of the use of SSRI’s in sexual addiction, as far back as 1989. Most studies focus on voluntary outpatients, but incarcerated offenders also show a response, though less robust. Martin delights in tweaking the reader outraged by certain sexual behaviors, pointing out the winked-at pedophilia of Bill Wyman and Jerry Lee Lewis, the sexualizing of children’s clothing and entertainers, our exhibitionistic, voyeuristic, and frotteuristic culture, blandly noting the inconsistencies. Not an inspiring speaker, not a notably compassionate clinician, but he’s always ahead of the curve.
General sites and info: International Society for the Study of Dissociation Strongly in the recovered memory camp, but tries to be very cautious in their assertions. More of a treatment than educational resource.
Jim Hopper, PhD here and here Exceptionally good statistical, summary, and links page. I don’t know Dr. Hopper. I have a secondhand report that he is brilliant.
Center For Sexual Offender Management Their editorial board is the best short list of who to read in the field
Bessel Van Der Kolk's site
David Baldwin's site
Gene G. Abel, the developer of the Abel Screening Inventory, the gold standard of measuring treatment effectiveness. Professor at Emory University Medical School.
Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences vol.528
Trauma and Its Wake , Charles Figley, ed.
Anything by R. Karl Hanson, Prentky, or Becker.
Journals are going to be hard to come by for most folks, but if you have access, these are the best. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology, Journal of Social Work Human Sexuality. (Social Work Journals are usually the worst in the field, but because it is frequently social workers who run victim or offender groups, they shine here.)
Spiritual connections:
Journal of Christian Healing Very uneven in quality, but much that is good.
Wayne Muller, better known for his book on the Sabbath, also has Legacy of the Heart: The Spiritual Advantage of a Painful Childhood.
Neurological bases. This is turning out to be big news. Ottawa researchers are believe there are fetal influences for a variety of sexual behaviors, and note that left-handers, brain-trauma, and are hugely overrepresented in the DSO population. Very little on the web, though you can link through Baldwin to Yehuda&McFarlane, Porges, and Perry. Mostly, you’re going to have to seek out American Journal of Psychiatry.
The Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, vol.528 Human Sexual Aggression is dated but excellent
How you feel about these depends on how you feel about 12-step groups. I believe it would be treatment-advising to give my opinion, but they all have literature and here are the links: Sexaholics Anonymous, Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous, Sex Addicts Anonymous
I only link to the EMDR and Marsha Linehan DBT Marsha Linehan DBT sites, because people would ordinarily expect to see here. I don’t disapprove of them, but I am ambivalent. I think if I explain why, I will be giving treatment advice.
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formerly Logician
Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Logician, Thanks for all your posts on this thread, particulaly the last one. Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
I briefly caught a news item on this (BBC1 bout 8ish I think), and it said that 7,000 people had subscribed to the American child porn site, and had their details passed to the police of their area, when the American police broke the ring. Of these 7,000, only 200 had been arrested so far, for having illegal subscriptions to child porn sites, never mind the pictures etc on their hard drives, which are also illegal. Apparently a lot of the different police forces didn't realise exactly what the pictures involved* and/or didn't think it was an important enough crime to warrant even cautioning them, let alone arresting the fuckers. One area sent them all letters saying that the police knew they had been subscribing to this shit, but nothing more.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Viki
*According to the news programme, the pictures weren't just kids in swimsuits etc; most of the shit the American police found when they raided the place was children being graphically abused/raped.
[Forgot footnote]
[ 23. November 2002, 02:03: Message edited by: sarkycow ]
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Obnoxious Snob
Arch-Deacon
# 982
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sarkycow:
I briefly caught a news item on this (BBC1 bout 8ish I think), and it said that 7,000 people had subscribed to the American child porn site, and had their details passed to the police of their area, when the American police broke the ring. Of these 7,000, only 200 had been arrested so far, for having illegal subscriptions to child porn sites, never mind the pictures etc on their hard drives, which are also illegal. Apparently a lot of the different police forces didn't realise exactly what the pictures involved* and/or didn't think it was an important enough crime to warrant even cautioning them, let alone arresting the fuckers. One area sent them all letters saying that the police knew they had been subscribing to this shit, but nothing more.
Viki
*According to the news programme, the pictures weren't just kids in swimsuits etc; most of the shit the American police found when they raided the place was children being graphically abused/raped.
[Forgot footnote]
This is what I was attempting to stress. These are not isolated incidents but huge numbers of people, largely unkown to the police, who are downloading the most appalling images of abuse. This is child abuse on a previously unknown scale, committed not by the 'curious', whatever the hell that means, but by abusers, for downloading and watching this indescribable stuff is child abuse, pure and simple. The stereotype of the lurking, evil stranger preying on our children is not the one we should be most fearful of, but that nice chap next door, you know, the one who is a bit of a computer buff!
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'The best thing we can do is to make wherever we're lost in Look as much like home as we can'
Christopher Fry
Posts: 889 | From: Kernow | Registered: Jul 2001
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
Logician,
Nice set of sites. Sorry I can't add any UK ones as when I sabotaged my iMac, I lost all my 'favourites'.
Arch,
It is horrifying and hellish. But maybe this publicity (though it's dying down; I wonder why?) will help the 'general public' to get away from their stereotyping of child abusers and wife batterers as 'ignorant, brutish, working-clas' types.
So many abusers are really clever at conning both victims and onlookers.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Basket Case
Shipmate
# 1812
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Posted
from daisymay:
quote:
So many abusers are really clever at conning both victims and onlookers.
This is so true, and don’t forget the accessories to the crime: every single adult who is aware of an abuser, & refuses to act because it is SO much easier to look the other way.
Posts: 1157 | From: Pomo (basket) country | Registered: Nov 2001
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