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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Mormon Meets Christian: The Reckoning
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
Lest anyone think that this topic can't be discussed on these boards...
Gordon B. Hinckley, President of the Church of Latter-Day Saints, says (from www.mormon.org):
quote:
"We are Christians in a very real sense and that is coming to be more and more widely recognized. Once upon a time people everywhere said we are not Christians. They have come to recognize that we are, and that we have a very vital and dynamic religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ."
He goes on to say that Mormons "accept Jesus Christ as our Leader, our King, our Savior" and as "the dominant figure in the history of the world, the only perfect Man who ever walked the earth, the living Son of the living God." He even adds that Jesus is "our Savior and our Redeemer through whose atoning sacrifice has come the opportunity of eternal life."
Not only that, but Mormons also "pray and worship in the name of Jesus Christ." According to their doctrine, "The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ and witnesses of His divinity, His life, and His Atonement."
If this is not enough for a religion to be considered Christian, what specifics does the title require?
[ 10. August 2007, 00:04: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
Not having `another testament'? Or believing that we (well men) become gods on other planets (or whatever it is)? But for me, it is mainly the other testament thing. Why is it necessary? It adds things which `mainstream' Christians do not have. Did God really desert us/leave us in error for N years?
CArys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
Is a different interpretation of the new testament than the one intended by Christ not a new testament in itself? Why does it have to be a new book that claims to be a new testament and not include all interpretations that differ from the original intent also?
[ 26. November 2006, 13:54: Message edited by: andreas1984 ]
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
It does of course depend on what is taken to be the essentials of Christianity. Personally, I would regard Mormons as Christian. I don't take the additional Testament as an insurmountable obstacle to this. Although they don't have another testament, other denominations clearly build on the New Testament doctrinally.
Their view of Jesus' divinity is different from other Christian denominations, so for Christians who hold that the deity of Jesus is essential to Christianity, then they would be seen as nonChristians, however as a nonChristian looking in, I would regard them as part of the doctrinely divergent faith of Christianity.
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Well, the problem with the Book of Mormon (their new New Testament) is that the stories about its origin (which is quite recent) are in large part known to be untrue, which brings into significant contention any truth claims about the material therein, some of which is, well, pretty different from creedal Christianity.
The most troubling part that is clearly contrary to Christ's teaching is that there are different categories of salvation, and that a woman cannot achieve the high level salvation on her own, but must be recognized after death by her husband as his "true wife", in order for this to happen. A good woman who is not married or whose husband does not call her goes to the steerage class heaven if she is very good. There she can spend eternity as a servant of those who are exalted.
I think universal availability of salvation is a central Christian tenet, and a religion that does not teach that is (definitionally) not Christian in the strictest sense.
But all that said, while the technical question of whether Mormonism is a Christian religion is an interesting one to me intellectually, I do feel like there's more to following Jesus Christ than creedal adherance. To the extent that Mormons are feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, etcetera, then they are participating in the central ministry that Jesus set forth for those whom he will recognize on the last day, and I'm not going to stand here and say that they aren't Christian, if they think they are. I feel confident that many of us will be explaining bizarre beliefs on the Last Day, and I'd rather not add to my list of sins that I spent a lot of time arguing about whether X or Y group are Christian.
[ 26. November 2006, 14:25: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon J:
Their view of Jesus' divinity is different from other Christian denominations, so for Christians who hold that the deity of Jesus is essential to Christianity, then they would be seen as nonChristians, however as a nonChristian looking in, I would regard them as part of the doctrinely divergent faith of Christianity.
That seems reasonable. They are an off-shoot of Christianity, but one that has, IMO, gone so far as to require a separate name. I think that there are examples of similar things happening in other religions. Does not the Bah'ai faith have its roots in Islam?
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
That seems reasonable. They are an off-shoot of Christianity
Not Christianity in general. Protestantism in particular. Like the JW.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I think that the aliens on other planets thing mentioned above is from the Church of Scientology. One of my nieces converted to Mormonism a few decades back, but I think she lapsed. We don't discuss religion.
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Even more so than I was before
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteCanada:
I think that the aliens on other planets thing mentioned above is from the Church of Scientology.
No, it isn't. The Mormons believe that sould before being brought into being live on the planet Kolob, location uncertain. To be fair, most Mormons I know are a bit embarassed about that part, in the same way we ignore the ethnic cleansing in chunks of the old Testament.
[ 26. November 2006, 16:29: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Well, most politely, they might be classed as a derivative religion, the category into which an OCA diocesan newspaper article placed them many years back, along with JWs. Less tactfully, they are heretics. They aren't simply schismatics. They don't teach the Faith set forth by the oecumenical councils of the undivided Christian Church. They aren't simply in a state of impaired communion with other parts of the Church Catholic, but completely outside the Una Sancta. They share some of the Church's scriptural canon and have various Christian beliefs. Christians share a major scriptural heritage with Jews, as well as many beliefs associated with Judaism, but Christians are not Jewish in any meaningful sense of the term. Although this analogy is imperfect, it seems to me that Mormons are in much the same situation vis a vis historical Christianity.
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
I have two questions of any Mormons on board:
1. Has the Mormon church recognised the ecumenical creeds?
2. Do they as a regular practice take communion in other Christian churches, where this is permitted?
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Professor posted: quote:
According to their doctrine, "The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ and witnesses of His divinity, His life, and His Atonement."
A testament is not a book: it is an agreement between God and humanity. It is not possible fot the New Testament (Covenant) to be superceded. Any suggestion that the Book of Mormon is - or is even a written record of - another Testament is an absolute nonsense.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Professor posted: quote:
According to their doctrine, "The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ and witnesses of His divinity, His life, and His Atonement."
A testament is not a book: it is an agreement between God and humanity. It is not possible for the New Testament (Covenant) to be superceded. Any suggestion that the Book of Mormon is - or is even a written record of - another Testament is an absolute nonsense.
Interestingly, that is what many Jews say about their Covenant and the claims of Christianity.
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
Doesn't their covenant prophesy a new covenant though?
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Jeremiah 31:31-33
"The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD.
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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benjdm
Shipmate
# 11779
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Did God really desert us/leave us in error for N years?
Well, yes, for ~90,000 years at the least. Homo sapiens was around for a long time before any part of the bible was written.
Posts: 357 | From: Northeastern U.S. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Well, yes, for ~90,000 years at the least. Homo sapiens was around for a long time before any part of the bible was written.
[TANGENT]
So it took man ~90,000 years, roughly, to develop what is currently, for a good number of people, the means of accessing and understanding God. To me, that doesn't necessarily mean that God wasn't there...
[/TANGENT]
Re: The Church of Latter Day Saints: I agree with most that their theology, as it diverges from traditional Christianity, is weird.
On the other hand, there are lots of other Christians who I believe to be weird, and yet I don't go so far as to say they aren't Christians. Just that I find some of their fundamentals a tad difficult to swallow.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Professor Kirke:
If this is not enough for a religion to be considered Christian, what specifics does the title require?
Belief in God as revealed in the Hebew scriptures and most especially in the life and work of Jesus Christ.
Mormon teaching about God is very different from th teaching of the Christian churches. Their idea of God is more a sort of super-powerful alien, a being located in the universe, a physical being with a body. Literally the father of the human species, our ancestor in the normal biological way. Each inhabited world has its own god. If you do well enough you can get promoted to be the god of your own world, and your descendents will get to inhabit it.
Theologically Islam and Christianity and Judaism are all much, much closer to each other than Mormonism is to Christianity.
[ 26. November 2006, 23:39: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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benjdm
Shipmate
# 11779
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
[TANGENT]
So it took man ~90,000 years, roughly, to develop what is currently, for a good number of people, the means of accessing and understanding God. To me, that doesn't necessarily mean that God wasn't there...
[/TANGENT]
It would also mean that the period of time between the New Testament and the Book of Mormon did not mean 'God deserted people or left them in error.' It would be as much a reason to reject the Old and New Testaments as the Book of Mormon.
[ 26. November 2006, 23:55: Message edited by: benjdm ]
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
But all that said, while the technical question of whether Mormonism is a Christian religion is an interesting one to me intellectually, I do feel like there's more to following Jesus Christ than creedal adherance. To the extent that Mormons are feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, etcetera, then they are participating in the central ministry that Jesus set forth for those whom he will recognize on the last day, and I'm not going to stand here and say that they aren't Christian, if they think they are. I feel confident that many of us will be explaining bizarre beliefs on the Last Day, and I'd rather not add to my list of sins that I spent a lot of time arguing about whether X or Y group are Christian.
I'm kind of on board with this to a point. Mormons sure act like Christians are supposed to act in a whole lot of ways, and "by their fruits, ye shall know them."
But Mormon doctrines are just a bunch of stuff some guy made up. I think Christianity is fundamentally true, expressive of Truth about the nature of God, the nature of humanity, and the relationship between God and humanity, and Mormonism's unique doctrines are obviously false. They're not just weird, they're wrong. And when things that are wrong and untrue are preached as Truth, they have the potential to be very dangerous. There's the secondary status for women, which Laura pointed out, and there's the racism (read more about that here). And they're busy trying to tell everyone in the Americas and Polynesia who is descended from the original peoples that they are a lost tribe of Israel (here is an article about this by a biologist who left the LDS because the DNA evidence just doesn't support this claim). In this last piece, the willful disregard of the truth on the part of some Mormon scientists and scholars is chilling:
quote:
Members who criticize the Church or its teachings at BYU face being sacked and excommunicated. Scholars paying too close attention to the details of Church history have been severely repressed in recent years. The same censorship of scientists has occurred before in BYU’s history and it will happen again. In the heartland of Mormonism the consequences of this action can be devastating for an individual, who could find themselves unemployed and an outcast in his family and community. Many scientists have learned that the best way to deal with these difficult issues is to not deal with them. Some keep Church and science safely locked in separate mental compartments and never attempt to resolve any conflicts. They reason that they have the eternities to resolve these conflicts.
Now, this is not to say that such things can't and don't happen within Christianity. And it will be very interesting to see if Mormonism eventually develops a metaphorical interpretation of its problematic "historical" texts. But even if it were to do so, I don't think the outlandish tales in the Book of Mormon are going to be able to express even the kind of truth that great literature expresses, never mind rival the truth claims of Christianity.
[Grammar be good.]
[ 27. November 2006, 00:09: Message edited by: RuthW ]
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Where or where is you-know-who? This seems to be a thread crafted just for her, or has she been beaten into silent submission on every other Mormon thread, where she has unfailingly expressed her opinions? A mormon thread without her input just wouldn't be any fun.
Greta
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
In fact, I initially thought that this might be a thread about an encounter between her and one of those missionary boys.
Greta
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
I was coming back to amend what I said, but Ruth beat me to it -- I want to emphasize that what I say about not making that distinction applies to individual believers -- I won't say that this or that Mormon isn't a Christian. Mormonism in general though, as you rightly point out, must be dinstinguished from that, and teachings do matter.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Ship of Fools, the magazine of Christian comfort?
Greta
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
Ship of Fools, the magazine of Christian comfort?
How so?
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
It's a holiday weekend, lots of Stateside shipmates are travelling and/or busy. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't know much about LDS theology and would therefore like to see this thread produce a serious discussion.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
....which is why I am hoping to hear from that certain somebody, who has always been deadly serious in her critiques of the LDS. In fact, she convinced me that it is NOT, by any prevailing standad, a Christian church.
Greta
[ 27. November 2006, 02:04: Message edited by: CorgiGreta ]
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
So PM her already, instead of littering this thread with asides.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
IMO, it's difficult. I've seen this exact conversation get ugly fast on other boards. People get surprisingly irritated when you tell them that their faith is a lie. Similarly, people get surprisingly irritated when you expect them to show respect to faiths that they find, at best, silly.
Still, those boards weren't the ship and I'd be interested in such a discussion, if it's possible without leading to rhetorical lynch mobs and countering accusations of closedmindedness.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
But for me, it is mainly the other testament thing. Why is it necessary?
Why was a New Testament needed at all? If it was prophesied, how are we to be sure that it was completed by the end of Revelation? Surely the writings of C.S. Lewis seem to be a "new testament" of Christian theology at times, as do others. If you believe the fullness of Jesus wasn't completely represented by the New Testament of the Bible, why wouldn't a true Christian want to find the complete representation of their leader?
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
I think universal availability of salvation is a central Christian tenet, and a religion that does not teach that is (definitionally) not Christian in the strictest sense.
Surely this would exclude thousands of Presbyterians and Penecostals, and other Calvinist-theologies?
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
The Mormons believe that sould before being brought into being live on the planet Kolob, location uncertain. To be fair, most Mormons I know are a bit embarassed about that part, in the same way we ignore the ethnic cleansing in chunks of the old Testament.
Do you have any (credible) link to support this? I've heard of it many times but usually from Christian apologists. I own the Book of Mormon but I'm not familiar with any passage that talks about extra-planetary theology, though I admittedly do not know the text that well.
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
I have two questions of any Mormons on board:
1. Has the Mormon church recognised the ecumenical creeds?
2. Do they as a regular practice take communion in other Christian churches, where this is permitted?
I hope you get an answer from a Mormon, but in the meantime, suppose the answers were No and Yes in that order. Do those answers define the right to the title of Christian? I know of many Christians who don't even know what the ecumenical creeds are -- are they Christian?
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Belief in God as revealed in the Hebew scriptures and most especially in the life and work of Jesus Christ.
What if they fully agree with this? Then does it become "No you don't nuh uh you don't believe that so you can't be a Christian" ?
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Mormon teaching about God is very different from th teaching of the Christian churches. Their idea of God is more a sort of super-powerful alien, a being located in the universe, a physical being with a body. Literally the father of the human species, our ancestor in the normal biological way. Each inhabited world has its own god. If you do well enough you can get promoted to be the god of your own world, and your descendents will get to inhabit it.
Again, do you have any sources? I've definitely heard this but I don't think I've seen anything official.
Ruth, thanks for the links. I'm looking through them and may respond more later.
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Professor Kirke:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
I think universal availability of salvation is a central Christian tenet, and a religion that does not teach that is (definitionally) not Christian in the strictest sense.
Surely this would exclude thousands of Presbyterians and Penecostals, and other Calvinist-theologies?
You say that like it's a bad thing.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Professor Kirke:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
The Mormons believe that sould before being brought into being live on the planet Kolob, location uncertain. To be fair, most Mormons I know are a bit embarassed about that part, in the same way we ignore the ethnic cleansing in chunks of the old Testament.
Do you have any (credible) link to support this? I've heard of it many times but usually from Christian apologists. I own the Book of Mormon but I'm not familiar with any passage that talks about extra-planetary theology, though I admittedly do not know the text that well.
At Pearl of Great Price 3:2-3, the business about Kolob is set forth. The stuff about spirit children is very complicated, and I'll be back tomorrow with more specific Mormon teachings that are inconsistent with creedal Christianity.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Professor Kirke:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
But for me, it is mainly the other testament thing. Why is it necessary?
Why was a New Testament needed at all? If it was prophesied, how are we to be sure that it was completed by the end of Revelation? Surely the writings of C.S. Lewis seem to be a "new testament" of Christian theology at times, as do others.
No one puts Lewis on a par with the Bible (or at least if they do they're individual loonies with no following), and Lewis made no claim of special revelation. He's an apologist for a quite traditional and orthodox Christianity. The scriptures unique to Mormonism are in their relationship to the New Testament more aptly compared to the writings of Swedenborg and to the Koran than to Lewis's work, though of course in both cases there are significant differences.
quote:
If you believe the fullness of Jesus wasn't completely represented by the New Testament of the Bible, why wouldn't a true Christian want to find the complete representation of their leader?
Sure, but what leads someone to think the fullness of Jesus isn't represented in the New Testament? More to the point, though, why would this happen? Did the early apostles and disciples really mess up so badly? Was there something defective about the revelation of God in Christ?
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
I think universal availability of salvation is a central Christian tenet, and a religion that does not teach that is (definitionally) not Christian in the strictest sense.
Surely this would exclude thousands of Presbyterians and Penecostals, and other Calvinist-theologies?
Not Pentecostals -- I believe they're Arminians, and in any case they're not Calvinists. The Holy Spirit can move anyone open to its workings, and that choice is available to us all.
Don't know what to say about Calvinism. Clearly it's a major strand of Protestant thinking, but I think Calvin's doctrine of election, as far as I understand it, is very wrong.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
The Mormons believe that sould before being brought into being live on the planet Kolob, location uncertain. To be fair, most Mormons I know are a bit embarassed about that part, in the same way we ignore the ethnic cleansing in chunks of the old Testament.
Do you have any (credible) link to support this? I've heard of it many times but usually from Christian apologists. I own the Book of Mormon but I'm not familiar with any passage that talks about extra-planetary theology, though I admittedly do not know the text that well.
Wikipedia says Kolob is in the Book of Abraham (part of the collection that is titled The Pearl of Great Price. Here's what one Mormon website says. You can read the Book of Abraham at Wikisource -- God tells Abraham all sorts of weird stuff he didn't tell him in the Bible.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
I have two questions of any Mormons on board:
1. Has the Mormon church recognised the ecumenical creeds?
2. Do they as a regular practice take communion in other Christian churches, where this is permitted?
I hope you get an answer from a Mormon, but in the meantime, suppose the answers were No and Yes in that order. Do those answers define the right to the title of Christian? I know of many Christians who don't even know what the ecumenical creeds are -- are they Christian?
The thing is, though, that if you gave these Christians in non-credal churches copies of the creeds, I bet most of them would have no trouble with what's in them ("the communion of saints" might need some explaining, and they'd need to know what small-c "catholic" means). The objection is to having a creed in the first place, not to what the creeds actually say.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Belief in God as revealed in the Hebew scriptures and most especially in the life and work of Jesus Christ.
What if they fully agree with this? Then does it become "No you don't nuh uh you don't believe that so you can't be a Christian" ?
They don't, though, at least, they don't believe that the Hebrew and Christian scriptures contain the full revelation, and Christians believe that the revelation of God in Jesus Christ was full and complete.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Mormon teaching about God is very different from th teaching of the Christian churches. Their idea of God is more a sort of super-powerful alien, a being located in the universe, a physical being with a body. Literally the father of the human species, our ancestor in the normal biological way. Each inhabited world has its own god. If you do well enough you can get promoted to be the god of your own world, and your descendents will get to inhabit it.
Again, do you have any sources? I've definitely heard this but I don't think I've seen anything official.
Start here, and follow the links.
[bad code]
[ 27. November 2006, 04:17: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by benjdm:
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
[TANGENT]
So it took man ~90,000 years, roughly, to develop what is currently, for a good number of people, the means of accessing and understanding God. To me, that doesn't necessarily mean that God wasn't there...
[/TANGENT]
It would also mean that the period of time between the New Testament and the Book of Mormon did not mean 'God deserted people or left them in error.' It would be as much a reason to reject the Old and New Testaments as the Book of Mormon.
As I said, to talk of a period of time between the inaugeration of the New Covenant through the death-resurrection-ascension of Christ as recorded in teh Scriptures of that Covenant (NT) and the publication of a book that claims to supercede or add to what Christ established, is to misunderstand the nature of a Testament. The New Testament (the agreement between God and humanity through Christ) is the testment that applies today and for all time. Nothing can supercede it.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Interesting.
"We are Christians" can be said by any group can't it?
How many of us say
" Our Church is the only true way to worship God."
...with our actions if not with our words?
LDS groups seem to have absolutely no contact with other groups of Christians in the UK.
But then ...um...what about other exclusive groups?
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
From the last site Laura linked:
quote:
In LDS belief, Joseph Smith is the prophet through whom God restored the Church of Christ and named it the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (See Restoration of the Gospel home page). He stated that "the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it."1 Members of the restored Church of Jesus Christ gratefully rejoice in Christ's atonement, confidently anticipate his glorious return, expect to be brought before him when he judges the entire human race, and hope to dwell with him for all eternity. Surely all who profess such beliefs can lay claim to being called Christians.
Granted, this is from an LDS site that, naturally, has a vested interest in defending LDS from teh attack of being "non-Christian."
Still, I think there is some credence to the argument that if we can agree on fundamentals (salvation through the grace of God via Jesus Christ), then isn't the rest of the stuff about the afterlife and specific practice just a matter of detail?
I suppose it's a question of how much similar liturgy/theology is required to make a church "Christian."
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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humblebum
Shipmate
# 4358
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
LDS groups seem to have absolutely no contact with other groups of Christians in the UK.
That's not quite true Ethne - they're not quite as exclusive as other New Religious Movements like the JWs. You will occasionally find groups of Mormons turning up at maintstream church services. I assume its part of the current drive within the LDS church to be recognised as being Christian.
On the other hand, the following excerpt from the canonical "Pearl of Great Price" might make ecumenical involvement pretty awkward:
quote:
My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join... I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (Joseph Smith—History of the Church Chapter 1:18-19)
quote:
Originally posted by Professor Kirke:
I own the Book of Mormon but I'm not familiar with any passage that talks about extra-planetary theology, though I admittedly do not know the text that well.
The tricky thing with Mormon theology is that it's not confined to the Book of Mormon. Technically, the LDS church recognises the Old and New Testaments, the Book of Mormon, "Doctrine and Covenants", and "Pearl of Great Price" to be canonical. They also have a strong concept of ongoing revelation, so I believe the definitive word on doctrine comes from the current leadership of the church, rather than any written word.
My understanding is that the Book of Mormon, whilst being rather wacky and implausible, presents theological views which are not particularly far removed from the theology of the Old and New Testaments. It was only later, as Joseph Smith's own views developed, that he started getting wackier theology "revealed" to him.
On the positive side, it does seem that today's LDS church seems to be moving away from lots of its more off-the-wall ideas, and seems to be using the Bible and the Book Of Mormon for its theological focus and distinctive identity. This leaves them looking much less theologically unorthodox than they used to.
Nevertheless, I still find Ken's argument to be convincing - if the Mormon worldview is still further removed from historical Christian theology than, say, Islam, it does seem rather misleading to label them as being part of the same religion.
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
I have two questions of any Mormons on board:
1. Has the Mormon church recognised the ecumenical creeds?
2. Do they as a regular practice take communion in other Christian churches, where this is permitted?
I'm not a Mormon but...
1. No. The Mormon church regards the ecumenical creeds to be in divergence from orthodox Christianity.
2. Don't know.
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humblebum
Posts: 584 | From: Belfast | Registered: Apr 2003
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Having been on the receiving end of "Your church isn't Christian because it doesn't agree with x or y theological point" has given me a lot more awareness of how hurtful it is to be called "not Christian" when you self-identify as Christian. Yes, there are significant things within Mormon theology that differ from "traditional" or "mainstream" Christianity, but I'm not sure they differ much more than most Christian groups differ from each other.
There is so little agreement within Christianity on what constitutes "essential" doctrine. Sometimes it seems the only thing you can definitely attach to the name "Christian" that all "Christians" would agree on is the centrality of Jesus Christ within the church's teaching. And the Mormon statement quoted above, as well as what I know of Mormon theology, certainly does assign that kind of centrality to Jesus.
Personally, I don't want to be the cop of the word "Christian" and make judgements about who gets to use it. If someone calls themselves a Christian, I don't see that I have the right to say, "No you're not." I'm not sure anyone has the right to do that.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Humblebum...thanks for the correction.
Hopefully we'll be visited soon then?
Interesting chats with Mormons recently have led me to belive that they would not and could not take communion with me or in the church I attend.
(But then other groups of christians wouldn't either so that's no indicator of anything ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Once had a very good series of chats with Mormons and it kinda ended up with us agreeing that we had to disagree.
And because we had got to know each other it was really sad.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
Allow me to offer a different perspective... In Greece, the vast majority of the people are Orthodox. Many of the non-Orthodox live together in specific places, e.g. there are many Muslims in Thrace, some Catholics in the Cyclades etc... Through the Ship I have seen that most of you consider denominations like Pentecostals mainstream. Well, if a Greek was to tell me that he belongs to a Pentecostal Church, I would consider him a member of a sect (well, not as dreadful as what most of you mean when you say "sect", but you get my point...). Would I question his Christianity? No, but still... Now, I might think of them as heretical wackos, but I don't even envisage not calling them Christians. I wouldn't place the Mormons or the JW too far from them. To me, they are another Protestant denomination...
But, and this is interesting, you who accept Protestantism as mainstream, and for whom Orthodoxy is off the radars, you have problems calling the Mormons Christians!
Sure, adding books written 2 centuries ago to the canon seems weird, but being in a religion that was started a few centuries ago seems equally weird to me! (OK, I agree that "Mormon" sounds funnier than e.g. "Evangelical", but still...)
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
From the last site Laura linked:
You mean Ruth; I didn't link to anything. I did cite, though. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Professor Kirke:
If this is not enough for a religion to be considered Christian, what specifics does the title require?
In this case, a correct Christology, IMO.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Ach. My bad. You know the site I mean, though... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
In this case, a correct Christology, IMO.
A correct Christology, huh? Do you mean like the first and the second ecumenical council? The framework of which is opposed by mainstream Western Christianity? The irony!
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Explain, please. I meant in particular the Chalcedonian Definition (yes, I know that potentially excludes the Copts as well and to be honest I'm not sure what I think about that - I like to think it's a misunderstanding/ mistranslation of the term 'monophysite', as opposed to the rather weird Mormon view of Christ)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
there are many Muslims in Thrace, some Catholics in the Cyclades etc...
The majority(?) of the Jews are sadly gone. May their memory be ever-lasting. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
[ 27. November 2006, 15:25: Message edited by: andreas1984 ]
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
Allow me to offer a different perspective... In Greece, the vast majority of the people are Orthodox. Many of the non-Orthodox live together in specific places, e.g. there are many Muslims in Thrace, some Catholics in the Cyclades etc... Through the Ship I have seen that most of you consider denominations like Pentecostals mainstream. Well, if a Greek was to tell me that he belongs to a Pentecostal Church, I would consider him a member of a sect (well, not as dreadful as what most of you mean when you say "sect", but you get my point...). Would I question his Christianity? No, but still... Now, I might think of them as heretical wackos, but I don't even envisage not calling them Christians. I wouldn't place the Mormons or the JW too far from them. To me, they are another Protestant denomination...
But, and this is interesting, you who accept Protestantism as mainstream, and for whom Orthodoxy is off the radars, you have problems calling the Mormons Christians!
Didn't you mean to say "some of you" here??
I would also like to point out that there is a wide variety of experience in Protestant churches, and a wide variety of "pentecostal" within Protestantism. ("Charismatic" is a word that gets used some, but it's not limited to Protestants.) Some are more mainstream, at least in the US, and some are just wacky. Pentecostal and Baptist churches in the US don't have the same kind of heirarchy and organization that someone who grew up in Orthodox-land might expect . It's pretty much a free-for-all with the naming - a lot of them don't even consider themselves part of "denominations". (And do you and I mean slightly different things when we say "mainstream" in English?)
If you meant "some Protestants", "some Pentecostals", etc., no problem ... I just wanted to point out that there isn't a monolith of opinion .
Charlotte
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
Dear Charlotte
Many thanks for the explanation! You see, I firmly believe that we have no other way than learn about each other and co-operate and live in harmony and tolerance... So, I am grateful for the information and I regret the fact that I am isolated from Christians other than Orthodox, the Ship being a notable window for me to the post-Reformation Christianity!
Dear Matt
The main issue behind the first and the second (note I said nothing about the fourth!) council was NOT whether Christ was man or God-man, but whether the Angel of the Lord who was revealed (theophany-theosis) in the Old Testament and said that His Name is YAHWE, is created or uncreated! This understanding, that the Saints of the Old Testament have seen the Word before the Incarnation, and that He revealed to them God in His wholeness, is, imho, missing from modern Western Christianity (probably because it's missing from Augustine)...
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Uncreated, surely?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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