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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Metropolitan Community Church Worship
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Long Mire
Shipmate
# 13780
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Posted
Leo, your comment raises a lot of interesting questions, and the whole question of lay celebration is, I think, a very interesting one.
However, it would need anpother thread for discussion of it. Maybe I should start one.
Here though my comments were specifically about the MCC, and the strange vesture involved. Thinking about it later I did wonder what the pastors of MCC in England wear for worship. I think the guy I met may be a loner in his style!
Posts: 100 | From: Liverpool | Registered: Jun 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
There is no rule about vesture in the MCC.
Pastors have often been ordained in other denominations and then joined the MCC later - often because they have 'come out' and had a bad reception. They tend to vest in the way they are accustomed.
There is a high church/low church variation much as there is in the C of E - though a better comparison is with Medthodists where you can get everything from cassock-alb and stole 'down' to open shirt and jeans.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Long Mire
Shipmate
# 13780
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Posted
I wasn't asking about MCC rules of vesture Leo! I was more interested in the practice - what do the pastors or worship leaders wear in worship. The answer seems to be anything.
One MCC church has an explanation about their worship. This is the Newcastle branch of the Church. They say the service is in three parts:
- The Peace
- The Collection
- The Communion
I was surprised to see The Collection given such a central role, rather than a sermon or Bible reading.
However, the Communion as described by this church seems very open and welcoming. Fruit Juice is used instead of wine to allow all to receive.
The church says:
quote:
At MCC Newcastle we practice open communion. You do not have to be a member of our church, or any other church, to take part. All we ask is that you are sincerely seeking God’s truth. After the special prayer of blessing, we pass the bread and wine to one another, along the rows. Some people say ‘the body of Christ’ or ‘the blood of Christ’ as they pass on the bread or wine, but you do not have to say this if you are not comfortable with it. You may take the bread or the wine, both or neither, then simply pass the plate or cup to the next person.
Isn't that welcoming and generous to people, sensitive to what those attending are comfortable with. Non believers who would also feel included.
Posts: 100 | From: Liverpool | Registered: Jun 2008
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Fruit Juice instead of wine? ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Trouble is with any à la mode thing like that is that it isn't actually as inclusive as it tries to be.
I, for one, would not want to receive non-alcoholic wine at Communion.
Also in these days of worrying about infection fruit juice isn't the best thing to put in a shared cup is it?
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Long Mire:
I wasn't asking about MCC rules of vesture Leo! I was more interested in the practice - what do the pastors or worship leaders wear in worship. The answer seems to be anything.
You were! - my post followed your words: Here though my comments were specifically about the MCC, and the strange vesture involved. Thinking about it later I did wonder what the pastors of MCC in England wear for worship. I think the guy I met may be a loner in his style!
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Long Mire
Shipmate
# 13780
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Posted
Sorry, Leo, I didn't. You've got hung up on a rule / law outlook. What I was wondering was about the PRACTICE of MCC ministers. That is what they actually wear to take services etc. I was NOT asking about any MCC RULES!
Its like the C of E the rules say one thing but the actual PRACTICE can differ greatly from that. In my C of E church the minister wears casual dress to take the service, not often a dog collar even. I know some of the old brigade will cry 'Illegal' 'Shame on him' but we like it, its a good worship service, its relaxed and not stuffy, God is worshipped etc etc. Jesus says you shall be known by your fruits - not how you follow old fashioned rules on dress code.
Posts: 100 | From: Liverpool | Registered: Jun 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
If this going to get personal, take it to hell please.
Thanks,
Doublethink
Eccles Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Long Mire
Shipmate
# 13780
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Posted
Thanks for that Doublethink. I'm here to discuss MCC worship, not where I may or may not be coming from.
The point I am making here is that I believe the celebrant of Communion - the person that says the central prayer, should not be out dressed by someone else present at the communion. Thats my understanding. But it seems its not MCCs and thats what I am interested to discuss and consider here.
It would seem from my experience of MCC, and what MCC Newcastle write, that actually saying the prayer of communion (the 'eucharistic prayer') is only of equal importance as the collection, or the peace.
Posts: 100 | From: Liverpool | Registered: Jun 2008
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beachpsalms
Shipmate
# 4979
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Posted
Grape juice instead of wine is established practice in a number of denominations with temperance movement roots, and is a practice of inclusivity for folks who struggle with alcoholism.
As for germs - wine is safe in a common cup IF the cup is silver, and is wiped between communicants, according to the last Ministry of Health bulletin I read. For juice, the best practice is the trays of wee cups, which is how my congregations do it currently. (We have done common cup intinction, but many of our folks don't like it, and I don't think it's a good idea with H1N1 floating around.)
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"You willing to die for that belief?"
"I am. 'Course, that ain't exactly Plan A."
Posts: 826 | From: a hamster's cheek-pouch full of raisins | Registered: Sep 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Long Mire:
The point I am making here is that I believe the celebrant of Communion - the person that says the central prayer....
The celebrant is s/he who presides over the WHOLE event not just one who says a single prayer. S/he may delegate reading, interceding, even preaching (though this is desirable since the breaking of the word should not be divorced from the breaking of the bread.
To understand eucharistic presidency as saying a few words over bread and wine is to depart from reformed, protestant and catholic ecclesiology and liturgical practice.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by beachpsalms:
Grape juice instead of wine is established practice in a number of denominations with temperance movement roots, and is a practice of inclusivity for folks who struggle with alcoholism.
As for germs - wine is safe in a common cup IF the cup is silver, and is wiped between communicants, according to the last Ministry of Health bulletin I read.
Really?
Scientific advice confirms that the guidance given in 1987 continues to be generally correct. However, it indicates that neither the alcoholic content of wine nor the antiseptic qualities of noble metals will provide any protection against a pandemic flu virus.....it has been established that some bacteria can be transferred to a common cup and survive on its surface for a significant period. A note of caution has also been sounded, suggesting that while the common cup represents a minimal risk for healthy adults it may present a greater risk for those whose immune systems have been compromised. ‘A Report Concerning the Risk of Transmission of Contagion via the Common Cup and Other Liturgical Acts’ Diocese of Toronto ,Anglican Church of Canada, 2003
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Long Mire
Shipmate
# 13780
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Long Mire:
The point I am making here is that I believe the celebrant of Communion - the person that says the central prayer....
The celebrant is s/he who presides over the WHOLE event not just one who says a single prayer. S/he may delegate reading, interceding, even preaching (though this is desirable since the breaking of the word should not be divorced from the breaking of the bread.
To understand eucharistic presidency as saying a few words over bread and wine is to depart from reformed, protestant and catholic ecclesiology and liturgical practice.
Thanks for the lesson Leo ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
The point I make remains, however, for I do not expect the President fully robed to delegate evrything to others, including saying the prayer over the bread and wine and the preaching, but not saying the notices. Thats what happened when I went to a MCC service and that is what I found odd. However, if the eccesiological view is that presidency means simply presiding over what others do then I guess its not so odd to others.
Posts: 100 | From: Liverpool | Registered: Jun 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
No - s/he cannot delegate the absolution or the eucharistic prayer, blessing and, arguably the sermon.
For lay people to feature prominently in a quasi-ordained role is to evacuate lay ministry of its true focus i.e. the secular world.
It is somewhat ironic that churches that make a bit issue (rightly) of social justice end up clericalising lay people rather than empowering them for their ministries in the outside world.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Speaking the truth in Hostly love ON
Long Mire and Leo, persistent sarcasm and sniping violate the 4th commandment. Don't do it - take it to hell. (And yes I will be repeating this warning on the lay communion thread.)
Moreover, the rightness or not of lay communion is not a topic proper to ecclesiantics. The aspects of lay communion proper to ecclesiantics already has its own thread - so use it.
Speaking the truth in Hostly love OFF
Doublethink
Eccles Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Long Mire
Shipmate
# 13780
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Posted
First of all, to Doublethink and others who have posted here, I apologise if in the argument I broke the rules. It is just to easy for me to press 'send' without pausing. I apologise.
My thoughts here were about perspectives and foci in worship. My reflection on the MCC service was that the main focus was not on the prayer over the bread and the wine, that was only one focus. Other, equal, foci, were the notices, the collection, the singing (modern but v e r y s l o w!)
This different balance is something I have not encountered in worship in other places. I'm told its basically a Protestant emphasis, whatever that may mean. It is definitely different.
I think a point I'd wish to make is that this is how it appeared to a worshipper, and thois can be different to what is written in the book. So, for example, to repeat my point, when a lay person comes forward and reads the prayer over the bread and juice and another lay person reads a sermon but a robed minister gives out the notices it appears to give undue emphasis on the notices.
Posts: 100 | From: Liverpool | Registered: Jun 2008
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
I was thinking earlier about going along to an MCC church in London for worship to see how they do it and see if I like it, but now this thread has gone on I think I'm changing my opinion. They sound a bit off the wall, and cliquey - at least the one described here does.
I realise they are a prot. church - they don't have bishops or the mass. They use fruit juice instead of wine.
But this emphasis on the notices and the collection sounds right whacky to me. One of their websites bats on about 'parent God' and I'm not sure I'd be comfortable in a church that makes me say 'Our Parent which art in heaven.'
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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RevAndy
Apprentice
# 4017
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Posted
Hi folks,
there has been lots of comments about the worship of Metropolitan Community Churches and these have focused around
inclusive language
eucharistic prayers
vesture of ministers
lay celebration.
I will try and give a little detail of our ecclesiology. I am the pastor of our church in Manchester.
First you should realise that MCC is basically a congregational church. There are very few rules about what we have to do in local churches. Our rules are concerned more with standards local churches, and clergy, have to adhere to. Our polity is more akin to the United Reformed Church than the CofE or RC.
Inclusive Language
Since 1985 MCC has tried to use "inclusive language" in its services and songs. What this means varies from congregation to congregation and from country to country. At its very least it means not using "mankind" to mean "humanity" or "man" to mean "men and women". We are careful not to always use "black" as a synonym for "evil" etc and wouldn't refer to the congregation as "brothers" when women are present!
Most MCCs also try to use inclusive language about God which gets a little more controversial. Some use gender free references to God the Father, others used balanced images. My own congregation in Manchester probably uses "inclusive language" less than we used to and much less than many other MCCs. We use simile more than metaphor "God like a mother you embrace us as your own" "God like a father you run to welcome home the estranged" etc. We tend not to change the words of the creeds or the Lords prayer but will say "for us and for our salvation" instead of "for us men and for our salvation" but I hardly think we are alone there.
As for the version of the Lord's prayer in MCC Manchester referred to in the report of the Mystery Worshipper - it was a song and the words were written for that particular tune. We normally say the Lord's Prayer in either traditional or modern form but don't change "Our Father".
Eucharistic Prayers
MCC celebrates Holy Communion every Sunday. We tend to use non-alcoholic wine in common with many free churches. The practice for how Holy Communion is celebrated and distributed varies from congregation to congregation. Many MCCs have a simple eucharistic prayer which is little more than St Paul's account of the Last Supper from 1 Corinthians. This is the pattern also in many Free and Pentecostal churches. Others, including Manchester, have a more Anglican or Catholic feel with preface, sung Sanctus, Eucharistic prayer and sung Agnus Dei. We collect Eucharistic prayers from many traditions and have some we've written ourselves.
Some MCCs offer a personal prayer to each person receiving Holy Communion. Many find this very moving, others - myself included -find it rather irritating. Some MCCs pass the elements around the congregation in Free Church style, others distribute Holy Communion in Anglican or CofE style. It's about the preference and tradition of the congregation concerned.
Vesture
Many, but not all, MCC ministers vest when leading worship. The normal attire is alb and stole but sometimes a preaching gown might be worn or simply a suit and clerical collar or more casual attire and a clerical collar. An alb, chasuble and stole might also be worn if the pastor is celebrating Holy Communion.
Lay Celebration
For many years MCC has allowed the Lay Celebration of Holy Communion believing that all the baptised share in the priesthood of all believers. Lay people who wish to celebrate are trained and authorised to do so by their local church. Pastors in MCC are responsible for teaching and spiritual leadership of a congregation and are "professional ministers of the Word and Sacrament" but, as in many Free Churches lay people can also be ministers of Word and Sacrament.
As for our distinctive contribution to the Wider Church I think it might be too early to say - we were only founded in 1968. My best guess is that our contribution is mostly around providing a place for lgbt folks to worship and engage in a lively expression of church (mainly from an evangelical background) without having to worry or fight battles around sexuality. In Manchester we don't really talk much about sexuality but try and get on with being a church committed to helping people grow as disciples of the Lord Jesus.
Hope this helps.
Andy
www.mccmanchester.co.uk
Posts: 13 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Ah well! There's a long post from the 'horse's mouth' as it were. Good to hear from that MCC Church pastor. From what is being said MCC church seems basicaly a Evangelical Free / Protestant Church, despite how the pastors may dress up!
But this pastor for me leaves a load of questions unanswered I think, like why the collection and notices are given equal value to communion. Why the pastor robes even when not doing communion. Why the pastor has to do the notices even when she isnt doing the communion.
It seems from whats being said that the MCC church just simply pick and choose from other churches what to do and don't have much of an ID themselves. It seems a lot depends on what the pastor wants and thats not very congregational to me. It must make it difficult to move from one MCC church set up to another.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RevAndy:
Hi folks,
there has been lots of comments about the worship of Metropolitan Community Churches and these have focused around
inclusive language
eucharistic prayers
vesture of ministers
lay celebration.
I will try and give a little detail of our ecclesiology. I am the pastor of our church in Manchester.
Welcome to the ship Do feel free to post on the introductions thread in All Saints, and have a ramble around the boards.
Very clear outline of your church practice. How big are you as a denomination in the UK ? My impression had been the MCC was a biggish movement in the USA.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Long Mire
Shipmate
# 13780
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Posted
Yes Hi Pastor Andy!
It is good to have your comments.
It would be good to have you join in more in this thread.
Posts: 100 | From: Liverpool | Registered: Jun 2008
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
quote:
Very clear outline of your church practice. How big are you as a denomination in the UK ?
Clear, perhaps, but it also showed that the churches of the MCC church just do as they please and their seems no consistency in it. In this they seem like the Open Episcopal Church or the Ecumenical Catholic Church. I suspect they are very similar in ethos to these groups.
How big in the UK? It would be good to have an answer to that - but they only seem to have about 10 or 12 churches and membership seems to me from there websites to be about 6 - 30. So, giving the benefit of saying 30 in all there churches - makes 300 - 400 people in total, i.e. the size of a single large church in the C of E, or an average size for an RC church.
Having said all that fringe stuff can be very interesting I think, and I have been interested in these tiny breakaway groups.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
quote:
Very clear outline of your church practice. How big are you as a denomination in the UK ?
Clear, perhaps, but it also showed that the churches of the MCC church just do as they please and their seems no consistency in it. In this they seem like the Open Episcopal Church or the Ecumenical Catholic Church. I suspect they are very similar in ethos to these groups.
Well, if they are congrationalist the consistency maybe in how they choose what to do, rather than what it is that they do.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Amiyah
Shipmate
# 11989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Ah well! There's a long post from the 'horse's mouth' as it were. Good to hear from that MCC Church pastor. From what is being said MCC church seems basicaly a Evangelical Free / Protestant Church, despite how the pastors may dress up!
Laetere, sorry to dole out unsolicited advice but I would urge you, like some other people on this thread, to go along to an MCC service as a visitor and as a one-time-only experiment and see what you think about it. You seem to be really fascinated by the MCC, so why risk missing out on something from which you might learn and gain something, just on the basis of the answers to the questions you've had on this thread (on which, incidentally, several people have enthused about their experiences of MCC churches). At the very least you might satisfy your curiosity. They won't steal you and try to make you convert to MCCism, you can safely return to your usual church the week after!
My girlfriend and I are both Anglicans (since childhood in my girlfriend's case) and we've been to two MCC services in Manchester, including one yesterday - hi Andy, how nice to see you here, thanks very much for your really enlightening post.
To us, the MCC in Manchester seems like a very warm and loving community church. The worship moved both of us yesterday and the preaching was engaging.
quote:
But this pastor for me leaves a load of questions unanswered I think, like why the collection and notices are given equal value to communion. Why the pastor robes even when not doing communion. Why the pastor has to do the notices even when she isnt doing the communion.
In relation to your first question here (in my opinion, fwiw which is probably not much as I've visited one MCC church twice), at the two services I went to, I wouldn't say that the collection and notices were given 'equal value' to communion. I am not sure how you can tell exactly how much value is given to each part of a service in any event. This is a slightly bizarre thing to discuss. Communion took longer than the collection and a lot longer than the notices, if that is any indication of its value. Which it isn't! If it is just a subjective question of how valuable the different things feel to worshippers, I can only answer for this worshipper, and Communion felt to me of profound importance, in an entirely different sense from the obvious practical necessity of the collection and notices.
In relation to your second and third questions, I have no idea and to me, it doesn't matter, as long as there is nothing sinister behind these things which really and truly I'm sure there isn't.
quote:
It seems from whats being said that the MCC church just simply pick and choose from other churches what to do and don't have much of an ID themselves. It seems a lot depends on what the pastor wants and thats not very congregational to me. It must make it difficult to move from one MCC church set up to another.
How have you drawn the conclusion that 'a lot depends on what the pastor wants' and that the congregation don't tend to contribute to decisions about the pattern of worship?
Also, I don't think you can infer from the fact that MCC churches don't have a common liturgy that they don't have 'much of an identity' or that any particular MCC church doesn't have much of an identity. Why not go to one of the three MCCs in the city where you live and see if it feels like it has one?
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Previously called MirrorMouse
Posts: 120 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
quote:
Very clear outline of your church practice. How big are you as a denomination in the UK ?
...
How big in the UK? It would be good to have an answer to that - but they only seem to have about 10 or 12 churches and membership seems to me from there websites to be about 6 - 30. So, giving the benefit of saying 30 in all there churches - makes 300 - 400 people in total, i.e. the size of a single large church in the C of E, or an average size for an RC church.
Having said all that fringe stuff can be very interesting I think, and I have been interested in these tiny breakaway groups.
Interestingly, that is about, or maybe only slightly less than, the sorts of sizes that some scholars are suggesting the churches to which Paul wrote were. If the MCCs have the impact on history over the next two millenia that Paul's churches had over the last two, things could be most enlightening!
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Laetare, I think it's really specious to compare the MCC to the vagantes groups you've named: the Open Episcopal Church and the Ecumenical Catholic Church. The MCC in America is a well-established denomination that has an important ministry to its constituency. It's understandable that it would be small in the UK, due to a number of factors that have to do with the overall state of Christianity in the UK and the role of the CoE as a body that can at least ambivalently accomodate many gay laity and quite a few gay clergy. In the USA I suspect that most MCC members came out of various evangelical free churches, since if one if an Episcopalian or a member of many of the larger mainline protestant denominations there's little need to leave your native denomination for the MCC (though gay persons may certainly feel a need to migrate to a maximally gay-friendly congregation within their own denominations -- at least outside the most conservative areas of the country there will usually be such welcoming congregations pretty readily available if not ubiquitous).
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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RevAndy
Apprentice
# 4017
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Posted
Ah, more questions.....
thanks for the welcome folks....
Size Matters......
We have around 230 recognised congregations in the world and 20 or so church plants. In the UK we have congregations in
Glasgow (Church Plant)
Edinburgh
Newcastle
Manchester
Birmingham
Bath,
North, South and East London
Torbay
Dorchester
Bournemouth,
Brighton.
So we are small.
For some reason Laetare infers we are a "breakaway" group like the Open Episcopal Church. We're not, other than the sense that any Protestant Church is a breakaway from the RC!
Our roots are in Pentecostalism in America but we moved beyond those roots some time ago. Unlike the Open Episcopal Church we thoroughly train our clergy who must have a degree in theology and do an array of practical ministerial courses after this. The process for training takes around two years after the degree and is based in both academic study and practical work. I think I explained in my first post that our polity is similar to the URC or the Congregational Federation.
As for what's more important in a service......we a church of Word and Sacrament and try to give equal prominence in our worship to both sermon and Holy Communion. Not all pastors robe, I do.
We tend to attract people who wish to explore Christianity in a church where they won't be discriminated against and a growing number of our congregation are new to the Christian faith - including some who have converted from Islam. Those who come to us from Christian backgrounds come from two main groups - Catholics and Evangelicals, as these are the two traditions which are often most antagonistic to lgbt people.
High Church Anglicans seem to have the most problems with us:)
best wishes
Andy
www.mccmanchester.co.uk
Posts: 13 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
As a 'High Church Anglican' myself (though I prefer 'anglo-catholic as a label) I am a strong supporter of MCC. In the past, when it was new to our area, I supported it by occasional attendance and by financial giving (despite my having hang ups about lay celebration, non-alcoholic wine and the style of music), partly out of shame for the way in which the Church of England treats LGBTs.
My church hosts the local LGCM group so we had a bit of imput when someone from MCC was investigating the viability of forming a church here. He decided that, in the light of our inclusive policy, he would start a church in the next, very close, city instead.
A friend of mine has been doing some courses by correspondence at ?Samaritan College? - a theolgy graduate myself, I am very impressed by its standards and syllabus. Whoever compared MCC to those cranky churches like the Open Episcopal and the Ecumenical Catholic doesn't realise this. This is why MCC is a full member of many 'Churches Together in...' groups whereas the two cranky ones aren't.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Ah I see I'd not realised MCC was a breakaway group from Pentecostalists, thats interestinmg as speaking in tongues and other pentecostal ministries havent been mentioned yet in the MCC set up.
Yes, I take the point about visiting. But as I've said before its OK to discuss and question and find out and puzzle over things ghere, aint it, I mean thats part of why Ecclesiantics is here is nt it?
The Pastor wrote
quote:
we a church of Word and Sacrament and try to give equal prominence in our worship to both sermon and Holy Communion.
I thought 'Word' when folk talked of Word and Sacrament was the Bible, not the sermon ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
The thing about Notices, Collection and Communion having equal value came from above when a guy wrote:
quote:
MCC Newcastle write, that actually saying the prayer of communion (the 'eucharistic prayer') is only of equal importance as the collection, or the peace.
Now that sort of thing says something about an outlook on Communion and its part of MCC isnt it.
I'm also very interested in the gay blessings liturgy used in MCC, that must be pretty unique to them.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Laetare, I really would suggest you quit thinking of the MCC in terms of being a "break-away". The minister who was instrumental in founding the denomination, the Revd Troy Perry, had been a minister in an American pentecostalist denomination. However, I don't think anyone has thought of the MCC in terms of being a break-away from anything for a long time now, if indeed it ever really was seen in that light. It would be more accurate to see the MCC as falling pretty squarely within the congregationalist free church tradition. They aren't even particularly unique amongst such groups in terms of observing the Lord's Supper on a weekly basis -- in North America both the Churches of Christ (not to be confused with the United Church of Christ) and the Disciples of Christ are examples of such denominations.
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
If I am not mistaken, the pentecostal church with which Troy Perry was originally affiliated observes the Lord's Supper every Sunday. Troy was simply continuing the practice when he founded the MCC.
Greta
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
LSK said:
quote:
Laetare, I really would suggest you quit thinking of the MCC in terms of being a "break-away".
OK not breakaway. But growing out of. I heard a sermon the other day and got a copy of it and the priest quoted:
quote:
Look to the rock from which you were hewn,
And to the hole of the pit from which you were dug.
Its from Isiaih in the Old Testament.
Thats what I was more meaning in relation to the MCC church and Pentecostals. The MCC church grows from Pentecostals and so there is bound to be bits theyve taken from their parent church and as pentecostals are about speaking in tongues and such I'm sure the MCC church have a part for that too.
The pastor says:
quote:
we thoroughly train our clergy who must have a degree in theology
Thats a very Prot. thing to say isn't it? Saying you must pass theology degree to be a minister. Good job some of the holy saints weren't in Prot. churches!
In this year of the priest think of the patron saint of priests: see here.
"his knowledge was extremely limited, being confined to a little arithmetic, history, and geography, and he found learning, especially the study of Latin, excessively difficult."
Not much hope for him in the ministry of Prot. churches like the MCC church and others!
Now one thing the MCC church seems to do that I dont think other churches do is do whatever communion worship you like on a Sunday, with no fixed liturgy and no dress code for the people who take part. (I say the people who take part cos it seems to me the minister is like all the laity - cos he has no special liturgy function).
On top of that the majority of the people will be LGBT.
That with there Pentecostal prot. flavour is maybe what is special about the MCC church worship, to answer a earleir question. (Asked by me!)
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toaster
Shipmate
# 14811
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Posted
Also, in reading the link to the MCC Newcastle website which is where this stuff about the collection having equal importance as communion came from, this is from a document which seeks to explain the different parts of the service, for those who possibly may never have set foot in a church before (where the things we do are not always obvious). I don't think it says anywhere that these were listed in order of priority. It's a guide to what happens for those who are new, not a long theological discourse for theologians.
The notices are just another part of the service, it may be that the person who knows most about the events reads them out so that they can explain them but does it really matter so much what that person is wearing?
I'd have thought that if a similar discussion were held about an Anglican service by non-Anglicans you could come up with some pretty weird practices which might not make sense, or be in the books, but which aren't a big deal, either to you as a visitor, or to the congregation you visited.
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Prayer is not an occasional nod
Given in passing to God.
It's more like marriage - a closeness of living,
A constant receiving and giving. Louie Horne, 1987 QF&P 2.25
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
quote:
The notices are just another part of the service, it may be that the person who knows most about the events reads them out so that they can explain them but does it really matter so much what that person is wearing?
I got the point made before about this as being that the guy at the Manchester MCC church who was all tatted up did nothing except read the notices, and people in ordinary dress did everything else.
I have to say if I'd been there I'd have thought that as very odd, and seeming to say you had to dress up to do the notices.
Maybe in a church where all are welcome (and a good thing that is too) those who want to dress up like priests can do so and be given a bit to do - there's inclusivity for you
I bet some of the folk who go dress up in a big variety of ways, and more varied than in the usual C of E set upo, lol.
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toaster
Shipmate
# 14811
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Posted
Not everyone in MCC is from a Pentecostal background though. Since each congregation is different, so the influences and the rocks from which the services (and individuals within the church) are hewn vary.
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Prayer is not an occasional nod
Given in passing to God.
It's more like marriage - a closeness of living,
A constant receiving and giving. Louie Horne, 1987 QF&P 2.25
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toaster
Shipmate
# 14811
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Posted
How about services where there is a minister attending but who is not involved in the service? Would one then assume that because they were wearing a dog collar (or perhaps something more elaborate as well) and sitting in the third pew from the front, that you had to wear a dog collar and be ordained to sit in the third pew from the front? I just don't see the big deal.
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Prayer is not an occasional nod
Given in passing to God.
It's more like marriage - a closeness of living,
A constant receiving and giving. Louie Horne, 1987 QF&P 2.25
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Cadfael
Shipmate
# 11066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by toaster:
Not everyone in MCC is from a Pentecostal background though. Since each congregation is different, so the influences and the rocks from which the services (and individuals within the church) are hewn vary.
Although the adaptivity to local exploration and experience has - perhaps - a charismatic feel that is concordant with pentecostal roots?
I have often wondered if the charismatic movement is, uniquely, the one tradition that most naturally lends authority to innovation and variety? Seeing MCC practise as sitting within that tradition seems to make sense...?
[BUT: I am no expert on charismatic / pentecostal churches, so please do forgive me if the comments above are obtuse...]
[x-posted, so to add: I agree that it's no big deal about dress. In my 'home' Anglican shack, visiting ministers usually dress in their clericals as they feel appropriate].
[ 07. September 2009, 22:23: Message edited by: Hermeneut ]
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
In terms of the matter of scholarly preparation for Holy Orders, let me remind you, Laetare, that it was once said of the CoE clergy that "the learning of the English clergy stupifies the world".
This thread has been going on for a long time now and TBH, Laetare, the relentlessly nagging tone of your posts - trying to find something grievously wrong with the MCC it would seem - has been annoying me almost from the beginning.
[ 07. September 2009, 23:38: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
The pastor says:
quote:
we thoroughly train our clergy who must have a degree in theology
Thats a very Prot. thing to say isn't it? Saying you must pass theology degree to be a minister.
Are you really suggesting that Roman Catholic and Orthodox priests don't have to have theology degrees?
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
The pastor says:
quote:
we thoroughly train our clergy who must have a degree in theology
Thats a very Prot. thing to say isn't it? Saying you must pass theology degree to be a minister.
Are you really suggesting that Roman Catholic and Orthodox priests don't have to have theology degrees?
If that's what he's suggetsing, then he's right, at least in the latter case, and certainly as recently as a half century ago, there was the sacerdos simplex in the Catholic church. I don't know whether it is now required for a Catholic bishop to insist on a degree before priestly ordination but it would seem to be the norm.
I think the point that Laetare was making is that, in a Catholic understanding, the nature of priesthood doesn't have any relation to academic ability or qualification. It comes through ordination, which is understood as a mystical conferring of a charisma for exercise within the church. Theological education is desirable in most cases because of the practical work of the priest but it is by no means essential to the nature of priesthood. This can be seen from the Catholic sacerdox simplex of former times, where a priest who was not considered to have the necessary book-learnin' would be ordained but not permitted to preach or hear confessions. It is also in evidence in the Greek practice of granting the palitza, (a vestment proper to the bishop, but often granted to priests as a sign of honour after some particular notable service to the people of God), to all priests who are permitted to preach and hear confessions, in order to make them easily distinguishable from those priests who do not have the pastoral and academic training for those roles. The Greek church started doing that under Ottoman persecution, when training priests was often difficult, so many were simply taught the services and ordained.
Churches with a more reformed understanding tend not to have the same understanding of priesthood. There often isn't a distinctive priesthood to which there is sacramental ordination but there is a pastoral, educational, and leading ministry to which a person is called, often by the local congregation, and for which the person receives the necessary training and preparation. Some churches still refer to ordination while others prefer the term commissioning or something similar. Many from reformed or protestant traditions would perhaps not use the word priest to refer to this person. These differences in terminology and practice all stem from differences in understanding.
RevAndy (good to see you posting again, Andy! I hope you're well) has explained the MCC's understanding:
quote:
For many years MCC has allowed the Lay Celebration of Holy Communion believing that all the baptised share in the priesthood of all believers. Lay people who wish to celebrate are trained and authorised to do so by their local church. Pastors in MCC are responsible for teaching and spiritual leadership of a congregation and are "professional ministers of the Word and Sacrament" but, as in many Free Churches lay people can also be ministers of Word and Sacrament.
So, while I would distance myself from the disparaging tone, I don't think the substance of what Laetare said was inaccurate.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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beachpsalms
Shipmate
# 4979
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Posted
Dear Lord.
Rev Andy's explanations affirm my own experiences that MCC and my own denomination (United Church of Canada) are similar in many ways. Certainly the worship is familiar: both in liturgical form and congregational diversity.
I had an MCC classmate in theology school, and know a few clergy who have moved between MCC and UCCan. In Ontario many congregations are on the smallish side, with the big Toronto congregation who has their own building (a former United church).
And while their/own liturgies may not be set, we are both still liturgical churches (in my opinion). I was thoroughly entertained at my local ministerial meeting last spring, when I brought a fairly simple liturgical worship to the table, and only the Lutherans and United church clergy managed to follow the highlighted text. (Hightlighted! Honestly! And my colleagues still struggled)
In some churches gowning is simply not standard across the board. When I'm sharing leadership with someone, I try and have a conversation about whether we're wearing albs/geneva gowns/collars/"regular" clothes... But honestly, it's not the most important thing in the world to me. Perhaps you'd find it jarring to come to my rural church, with our grape juice and little cups, and clergy woman in capris and sandals and a large tattoo.
However, when I get the odd Sunday off in Toronto, I like to go to MCC to be reminded that God loves me just as I am, without hiding anything. I sometimes run into other United church folks there. The flexibility that seems to bother some feels like home to me.
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"You willing to die for that belief?"
"I am. 'Course, that ain't exactly Plan A."
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Thank you, Cyprian. A very interesting and helpful post.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Actually having at least a degree is not necessarily a protestant stance. In the URC they have to have at least two years training.
I am not sure how many do degree courses for that training but there has always been those who haven't. Initially in England because non-conformists could not get degrees, you HAD to be Anglican or at a push go up to Scotland or onto the continent. Later because for some people it is simply inappropriate, e.g. they'd not fulfil the academic entry requirements, the investment by the denomination would not bring the return due to age or background favoured other training*. There are no URC, Methodist or Baptist bodies who can award degrees in England. People are required to do some theological training but that might well only be at certificate level.
Jengie
*the classic case would be an already ordained person who which to switch to the URC ministry. The training given would have a heavy emphasis on the Reformed tradition from a very pro-denominational stance. This type of course is incompatible with English University style validation.
[ 08. September 2009, 15:59: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Geneviève
Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098
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Posted
I have worshipped in an MCC church in the past and they used the BCP as the basis for their liturgy. So ISTM that a variety of forms of worship might be seen....which is the case in TEC as well though we do subscribe to the BCP.
And the clergy vested in alb and stole.
Quite frankly, I see no reason at all to knock the MCC church and a great many reasonso be in its debt. When most mainline churches (except for the stray rebels) were rejecting gays and lesbians--not mention bi or transgendered folks--as unworthy to even be in the same room, the MCC was preaching and acting out the message that all are beloved children of God.
[ 08. September 2009, 16:18: Message edited by: Geneviève ]
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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Thats a very Prot. thing to say isn't it? Saying you must pass theology degree to be a minister. Good job some of the holy saints weren't in Prot. churches!
(Extract from one of a number of similar posts, not going to quote them all)
Speaking the truth in Hostly love ON
Laetere, I draw your attention to commandment 2, if you stop to look at the posts you're making it should be pretty obvious they are dismissive in tone and language - if you want to take the piss out of 'prot' churches rather than have a meaningful discussion, take it to hell. Eccles will not succeed in becoming an inclusive space if people's traditions are belittled as soon as they arrive.
Speaking the truth in Hostly love OFF
Doublethink
Eccles Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Thanks very much Cyprian for saying what I was thinking but more fully and more kindly.
As I understand it Reformed Protestant churches put more emphasis on learning and degrees than churches of the catholic tradition. Its interesting how many Protestant clergy put there degree initials after their name, thats not something I find many Roman or Anglo or I guess Orthodox clergy doing. I guess its sayoing there authority comes from their study of the Bible more than given by the Church.
Nowm having said that please - I apologise for irritating people on this thread by using too loose language.
I find the subject of Gay church worship very interesting, and thats why I started the chat and why I keep joining in.
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Long Mire
Shipmate
# 13780
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Posted
I wonder if I could raise another area for discussion.
I raised the question of the appropriateness or otherwise of the pastor of the MCC church wearing robes.
Reflecting further on this I think what surprised me was that in an inclusive setting there was such a clear mark of heirachy and authority. I had expected an LGBT church to play down that, in favour of a more inclusive and radical position.
Further to this, I wonder what liturgical arrangements are favoured by MCC gatherings for Communion.
Do the worshippers sit around the table?
Is there specific symbolism which draws together the community?
Mention was made of lighting the AIDS candle. I'm not sure if all MCC groups do that but I don't recall it happening when I attended. If all did it, it could be an act of recognition of worship style within the church of the MCC.
Whatever, many denominations have a 'typical' lay out style (I am aware there can be variety). I wonder what that norm is in MCC.
[ 08. September 2009, 21:44: Message edited by: Long Mire ]
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