|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: "A Church Divided": Aftermath of Virginia Anglican/Episcopal Battle
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Beeswax,
You're want a church that is traditional and orthodox, yet is liberal on Dead Horses? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Yes
Nothing in the Nicene Creed about Dead Horses.
quote:
Mockindale writes:
My ideal congregation would be a lot like the one I attend right now. It would have a moderately formal liturgy, no EOW, with a traditional choir and no guitars or drums... gay-friendly
I must review this whole thread, because I no
longer have any idea why I've disagreed with either of you. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
[ 14. April 2012, 19:57: Message edited by: Alogon ]
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
|
Posted
I'm new-ish to the Episcopal Church and a theological traditionalist and moderately, politically conservative. In my own Diocese of Albany, our Deanery has been growing as has my parish. Our parish priest started a theology class on the Articles of Religion which is full, in addition to the sanctuary, where salvation by faith through grace is taught and believed.
It might be out of vogue in TEC right now but it works.
[ 14. April 2012, 20:39: Message edited by: jordan32404 ]
Posts: 268 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
"In vogue" is the perfect way to put it, Jordan. The problems of the Episcopal Church right now are severe, but no matter how terrible they become "This too shall pass."
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Among other things, Beeswax Altar sez this:
And before anybody asks, no, this has nothing to do with Gene Robinson. Gay and lesbian Episcopalians who hold orthodox beliefs and prefer traditional liturgy can have a hard time in most places. The few conservatives remaining in TEC reject them because they are gay. Liberals are offended at the audacity some gays and lesbians will not join them in supporting every theological or liturgical innovation anybody dreams up. How dare you support the orthodox and traditional view of anything?! We welcomed and included you!!! Bunch of ingrates. Think I'm exaggerating. I've watched it happen with my own eyes. I've listened to my gay and lesbian colleagues share their experiences of it happening.
Being in a flag-ship diocese that prides itself on all that he describes, all I can say is that Beeswax Altar drives that nail fully home. Call me if you want details.
There was nothing inarticulate or rambling about that post that isn't made up with fervor.
...
It may very well be true, but the bickering does sound very much like it's right out of 'The Life of Brian'.
Must make for interesting living.
--------------------
Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
|
Posted
Among the various breakaway groups from the Episcopal Church during the last 40 years or so, I am inclined to think that there has been no lack of bickering and litigation and no lack of further breaking away among the original breakaways.
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
I'm at a loss to discover what it is you think TEC ought to be doing, Beeswax Altar.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
Among the various breakaway groups from the Episcopal Church during the last 40 years or so, I am inclined to think that there has been no lack of bickering and litigation and no lack of further breaking away among the original breakaways.
Plenty of bickering, but comparatively little litigation among ourselves, though certain bishops have made themselves pariahs within the movement by having their lawyer on speed dial. In this respect I do not think we have been any worse or better than the denizens of TEC. Much of the splitting has been due to the fact that the 1977 ACNA(E) was an alliance of incompatible groups.
Looking back at it from this distance, it would have been better if the 1977 'leavers' had joined the existing Continuing Church Movement, but it was too much of the old PECUSA Mk 2 for some of the sterner spirits. This set up a tension within the movement that spent twenty-five years expending its energies in a most destructive manner. Time was called on the "foot shooting fest" when much of the first generation was gone, and those who were left had finally grown up enough to play the elder stateman. The current situation is that we are trying to bring the bits back together. All of which rather echoes the early days of the REC and the Free Church of England, but with all the disadvantages of modern communications!
However, back in the 1980s there was a lot of rather silly litigation with TEC over buildings. A far better course would have been to hand TEC bishop the keys and walk away. The result of most of these tussles was the dissipation of the original vision energy of the congregation, and, ultimately, the failure of the congregation long term. I think ACNA/CANA is in the process of learning the same lesson the hard way.
All this brings us back to that old saw "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." As we know, Americans are inclined to be adverse to the study of history.
PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I'm at a loss to discover what it is you think TEC ought to be doing, Beeswax Altar.
Why is that? I've written several long posts.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
kiwimacahau
Apprentice
# 12142
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
There are two interesting questions that the piece raised. First, Most Rev. Jefferts-Schori stated that churches that have no Episcopal parish to fill them may be leased or sold to Baptists or Methodists or other religious groups, but categorically not to any Anglican parish; her rationale for this, which I've never heard before but has a certain logic, is that she will not allow a diocese to "set up" any organization which seeks to harm or destroy the (Episcopal) Church.
Makes me wonder if the destiny of all former EPCUSA buildings is to become mosques or pentecostal churches, then. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) What an evil woman TEC has as their leader, I feel sorry for the 0,6% of the USA population that remains episcopalian. She rather have her sheep becoming atheists or muslims then see them joining another church that is in full communion with the Anglican Communion. [/QB]
What a remarkably offensive post.
--------------------
It is necessary for some people to advertise they are christians, as no one would believe it from their behaviour. H. Haydon.
Posts: 33 | From: Deepest Darkest NZ | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I'm at a loss to discover what it is you think TEC ought to be doing, Beeswax Altar.
Why is that? I've written several long posts.
Uh, because you've been vague about what exactly you believe TEC should be doing differently. Perhaps you could provide a list of specific recommendations. I understand you believe that TEC should assertively teach the "orthodox" faith, yet leave dead horsies be. Yet, a considerable number of Christians - especially outside TEC and the mainline magisterial reformation denomiations - believe that the defunt equines are integrally wrapped up with orthodox Christian doctrine.
My own view, BTW, is that the future of TEC lies in an AffCath direction, incorporating social progressivism, catholic liturgy and sacramentality, the orthodox historical doctrinal formularies of the Church Catholic but with respect for individual lattitude in the personal understanding and interpretation of these, and strong textual-cultural-historical biblical criticism. Also, as much cooperation with our ecumenical partners as possible, especially with the ELCA.
[ 15. April 2012, 13:26: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
|
Posted
Many would say that the latter prescription has been the recipe for the decline of TEC
--------------------
"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
OK
1. Reclaim a more traditional understanding of the sacraments. Baptism is the beginning not the end. No traditional understanding of baptism neither Protestant nor Catholic teaches that baptism in and of itself is sufficient. More Protestant understandings hold that the child must come to a saving faith. The high church understanding rejects the Calvinist doctrine of perseverance of the elect. We need a coherent theology of confirmation. As it stands, only those seeking Holy Orders actually need to be confirmed. I think only confirmed members should be allowed to vote at annual meetings or hold positions of leadership. TEC should stop treating the Eucharist like coffee hour. Expecting only baptized Christians to receive the sacrament is not excluding people. If an unbaptized person leaves in a huff and never returns because he or she wasn't invited to receive communion, I'm fine with that.
2. Proclaim the orthodox faith. Tell the story. The story says God created the heavens and the earth. The story says Jesus was fully God and fully human. The story says Mary was a virgin. The story says the tomb was empty. Don't quibble about how much of it is historical or not historical or factual or not factual. We have no way of knowing one way or the other and never will. This isn't just one person's story. It's the story the Church has told for two thousand years. I don't care if members of the clergy think every last bit of it is a metaphor. They might be right. They might be wrong. However, priests who have taken ordination vows should stand up in the pulpit or wherever else they preach and tell the story as if they are sure of its happening as they are the contents of their last meal. Priests who can't do this should find something else to do. The Church could help by not ordaining people who have problems with the basics of Christianity in the first place. Same with the rest of scripture. Yes, I know there isn't much historical evidence for much of the events depicted in the Old Testament. Doesn't matter. Jesus took the events of the OT as historical. The story formed Jesus. Just tell the story. To an extent, the rationalizing and demythologizing of Christianity helped some who were raised in church and comfortable going to church find a reason to stay in church despite their skepticism. Plenty of the people left anyway. Right now, we need to focus on people who have never been to church. The same modernist approach to scripture and doctrine that was a comfort is now a hindrance. As fewer and fewer people attend church out of obligation, fewer and fewer people who attend church will be interested in our current approach to scripture and doctrine. If we can't tell the story with confidence and without embarrassment, we have nothing to offer seekers they can't find any service organization.
3. Stop with the politics. Passing a bunch of resolutions addressing left wing political concerns is pointless. Doesn't do any good. TEC is easily ignored by people in power. We are almost a joke. The only thing focusing on left wing politics does is alienate political conservatives. The concerns of a parish should be primarily local. Parishes should focus primarily on local issues. If there is a local issue which calls for a Christian response, then issue a response that is clearly grounded in scripture, tradition, and reason and preferably backed by other churches in the area. Besides that, we should focus on doing what we can do and less on talking. Even the most libertarian of libertarians, say churches should be heavily involved providing for those in need. Let's focus on doing what we can instead of passing resolutions about what others should be doing. Also, TEC needs to focus more on how what we really do have to offer those in need (Acts 3:6). The reason we don't is because it involves telling the story with confidence and many of us are too embarrassed to tell it.
I'm not saying Episcopalians can't organize around political issues. Organizations like The Episcopal Peace Fellowship can take political stances all they want. I'm willing to provide a meeting place for them. However, Episcopalians who are political conservatives should also be allowed to organize and I'd give them space as well. Priests should advocate for neither side from the pulpit. Most importantly, local churches should be places for dialogue about proper Christian responses to political issues.
4. Stop the silliness in liturgy. Scrap Holy Women, Holy Men and start from scratch. Not everybody who has a good idea or champions a cause we like needs to be made a saint. Bishops should demand churches stick to authorized sources and rubrics be followed. Whether we say so officially or not, we pray what we believe. Bishops are responsible for seeing that we do. Liturgies should strive to be as timeless as possible and based in tradition instead of cute and dated. Rather than liturgical innovations, TEC should make more of an effort to reclaim the richness of the past. Haven't the TEC leaders noticed the numbers of younger people fascinated with Anglo-Catholicism? Why not encourage that by authorizing resources for use by those wanting a resurgence in the Anglo-Catholic tradition? Why don't Anglo-Catholics get a volume of Enriching Our Worship?
5. Develop Anti-classism training. Snobbery is a bigger problem than all the isms. Many of our parishes would have no problem welcoming an affluent, highly educated, African American (or any other minority) lesbian.
6. Stop obsessing over old buildings and worship times.
7. Be more welcoming of families with children. Many parents look for a church that has something to offer their children. All TEC parishes need to put more effort and resources on Christian formation. In other words, the budget for Christian formation needs to be more than a few hundred dollars a year. We need to put as much care into the space we use for formation as we do for worship. Parents who want a place that has something for their children will not be attracted that trims the deficit by cutting Christian formation costs.
8. Focus on Christian spirituality. Our tradition has much to offer seekers. We have answers to the metaphysical questions if we are just willing to embrace the answers our tradition gives us. We have answers about how we should live and even answers about how we become better people. We have a rich spiritual tradition that really does have something for everybody. We have a beautiful understanding of sacred time and sacred space that I believe is very appealing in a society that is increasingly secular. In addition to being beautifully, it also practical. Our spiritual tradition is diverse and flexible. It really does contain something for everybody. We should do a better job of emphasizing it and teaching it. Leave Jung out of it.
This will do for a start. I'll list more if I think about it.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
I see Beeswax danced around the issues that have divided the church--probably to avoid going into dead horse material.
I recently read an article that said most schismatic movements eventually die out--usually within a generation--because they refuse to change with the times.
I have certainly seen this in my own denomination. As an example: some Lutheran synods split over the issue of slavery. It took a civil war here to settle the question, but once that was settled, Lutheran churches that were pro slavery disappeared.
We had a similar fight over predestination, but that issue died away after a generation had past--and we returned to the traditional Lutheran understanding of the doctrine.
Revisit this in 20 years and I think you will see the TEC stronger than ever and the splinter groups all but gone,
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
I didn't dance around the Dead Horses. At this point, the Dead Horses are decided for TEC. If you can't accept that, you would probably be happier just leaving. Conservatives who choose to stay need to understand that some of their strongest allies going forward will often be ordained women as well as gays and lesbians. As for progressives, you won. Now it is time to be magnanimous in victory. We all need to move on.
And that's all I think needs to be said about Dead Horses.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
|
Posted
In relation to the original post, I think it's quite unwise for the Presiding Bishop to pursue an agenda that wastes so much Episcopal money. Perhaps, if there is a viable Episcopal congregation left after a parish secedes, then we could pursue litigation, but that group would have to be self-sustaining. The Episcopal Church does not have millions of dollars to waste on empty buildings. It's also somewhat ironic that litigation with the TEC is somewhat of a "glue" that holds together ACNA and other groups. The image of a common enemy holds the disparate groups together. If TEC were to drop all litigation cases and apologize for treating ACNA badly, the latter would fall apart in less than five years. Essentially, they are using TEC litigation as a way to avoid dealing with their own internal issues.
This comes from someone who came from ACNA into TEC and who largely agrees with their concerns about TEC. I can't support schism, though. (Just for perspective on my opinion).
Posts: 268 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
I don't know if it's quite so bad an investment, Jordan, to send the lawyers after the silver the schismatics ran off with. Besides the Holy Spirit nothing is quite as sustaining to a diocese as millions of real-estate dollars.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
Gramps49 wrote: quote:
I recently read an article that said most schismatic movements eventually die out--usually within a generation--because they refuse to change with the times.
I don't know what the article was looking at, so it would be a bit unfair to draw any conclusions directly from it. But indirectly, and relating to it -
- both Anglicans and Lutherans are members of schismatic movements and we haven't died out yet. That would appear to be a major minus for the theory. As to schismatics from Anglicanism, both the baptists, the methodists and various other reformed denominations all meet this criterion too - are they not larger? (In the USA I mean). I'm sure there are splinters that have expired after a generation or two, but I'm far from certain it is universal.
One final point is that schism is judged by history on the basis of who caused it. Most people would probably say that the great schism of 1054 probably had roots on both sides going back many years. But in the Johannine schism, it is generally held to be the main body of the Johannine church that spiralled out of control, claiming it had the Spirit, and not the minority.
If I had to make an overall comment, it would be for nobody to be complacent about this. History can be a lot tougher on us than we might like.
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
9. Adopt Bishop Saul's non-proposal for downsizing the national church. He said it wasn't a proposal when people complained. Some people really like having meetings and serving on committees and commissions. Do any of the committee meetings ever produce anything worthwhile? Not really. Could we do without most of the commissions? You bet we could. But then people who like going to meetings and serving on committees wouldn't get to do that so...
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Wyclif
Apprentice
# 5391
|
Posted
Great commentary, Beeswax. Particularly your #1 and #2. I'm fairly certain we are not theologically on the same page, but I couldn't agree more with your analysis, esp. regarding "telling the story." There are far, far too many Episcopal priests who cannot, and therefore should not be in the pulpit. TEC has been far too unselective regarding the ordination of clergy. If you can't preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ but prefer the Gospel of Jung, please save these people the misery and find another profession (or another hobby, as it were).
--------------------
No trees were harmed in creating this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Posts: 36 | From: Safely in Lutterworth | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
Honest Ron
I think the Anglican and Lutheran origins were different than those who want to hold on to the old ways.
The Lutheran movement started because there was a desire to restore the church to its original proclamation--and to get out from under the politically oppressive thumb of the Curia.
Likewise, the Anglican movement started as a means to get out from under the thumb of the papacy especially when it came to the question of divorce, simply put.
I would say the Reformation was a positive movement rather than a reactive movement the most recent schisms have been. Reactive splits are doomed to die.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
What Beeswax Altar sez: #1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, & 9, thought I'm not sure what's up with #5 and would want to hear more about #6.
With 5, TEC has many parishes (ever diocese I've seen) that need to be combined. The diocese tries yoking parishes together. People complain the time of Eucharist changes or they can't have an early service. The diocese suggests combining the parishes into one larger and more viable congregation. People complain because they'll have to give up their building. So the parishes continue to decline separately. What's important? Coming to the same building at the same time and having coffee with the same people appears to be what its all about.
With 6, in many instances, I think our biggest hindrance to being welcoming and inclusive is class. What we expect church to be and how we treat others is based on class. This isn't the case in every place. However, I've witnessed and heard enough examples of it and from churches that have very little else in common (rural, suburban, urban, high church, low church, liberal, conservative).
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
|
Posted
In regards to mergers, etc. I hope that TEC becomes less of a posh religion and more like the rest of the Communion in being a church for everyone (granted, Anglicanism in general has been more upper class). Perhaps it's past time for "Episcopal" to mean more than tat and a lovely service on Sunday morning but more about preaching the Gospel and being saturated with the Bible as Cranmer intended.
Posts: 268 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
A beautiful service and proclaiming the gospel aren't mutually exclusive. Being posh and proclaiming the gospel? Not so much.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
|
Posted
I think it's the faux posh you need to avoid, Beeswax Altar. They're the tattiest of the lot. A bit like Tatty Oldbit in that wonderful British newspaper cartoon the Perishers.
http://www.theauthenticperishers.co.uk/mainmenu/tatty.htm
Come to think of it, there should be a Tatty Oldbit in every Anglican parish everywhere. The show would increase the congregation. Tatty has character and authenticity. We desperately need that.
[ 16. April 2012, 03:23: Message edited by: Sir Pellinore (ret'd) ]
--------------------
Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
Beeswax Altar makes a number of good points above IMO. quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
If it was the "witness to a renewed Gospel" , it would be prospering. It is dying as previous posters have pointed out
In many ways it is prospering. A church where approx. 30% of the membership grew up in other traditions and made a conscious decision to join it, must have something compelling to offer, otherwise this wouldn't be occurring.
What Zach82 said: a church which is dependent on other traditions/ churchmanships for 30% of its membership is not in a healthy place. I would hazard more than an educated guess that a large part of that 30% come from more conservative, more evangelical backgrounds and have moved higher up the candle liturgically and to the left theologically as they have 'grown up' spiritually (as they would doubtless see it); the irony here therefore is that TEC needs the more con-evo denominations/ non-denoms for a significant proportion of its membership!
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
|
Posted
As an outsider - in Australia - Matt, I think whatever went on/is going on with the TEC has got many of its current members rattled. Really rattled. If you are badly enough rattled it often looks like you might be falling to pieces.
Being here I can only see it as an outsider. Whatever the truth of the matter is and what the outcome will be I really have no idea. It's a bit like watching a news clip from a war zone. The clip itself tells you very little. Analysts vary as to their insights and prognostications. Think tanks supposedly think. Foreign ministers make announcements. It's no clearer.
--------------------
Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Maybe not but being purposely vindictive is another matter altogether, a case in point being the treatment of Matt Kennedy and his parish - they offered to purchase their church at full market value; not only were they refused, the building was instead sold cut price to Muslims and is now a mosque.
These people are going about calling themselves the legitimate Anglican Church of North America. It is their stated purpose to replace the Episcopal Church. Letting them continue on in these churches sure seems, to me, just a bad strategic decision. People will get the idea that they are a legitimate continuation of the former Episcopal parishes, and Lord knows that's how they present themselves.
It's not about revenge, though it must be flattering to the schismatics to imagine it must be so. It's only about what is best for the Episcopal Church.
Zach
Of course it's always The Other Lot™ who are the schismatics... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
We're evil for not giving them churches, Gorpo? We don't owe them squat.
Maybe not but being purposely vindictive is another matter altogether, a case in point being the treatment of Matt Kennedy and his parish - they offered to purchase their church at full market value; not only were they refused, the building was instead sold cut price to Muslims and is now a mosque.
I never fail to be surprised at how vindictive so called "liberal" clerics can be. I do hope the congregation treated in this way flourishes and the church authorities are afflicted with piles.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
We're evil for not giving them churches, Gorpo? We don't owe them squat.
Maybe not but being purposely vindictive is another matter altogether, a case in point being the treatment of Matt Kennedy and his parish - they offered to purchase their church at full market value; not only were they refused, the building was instead sold cut price to Muslims and is now a mosque.
I never fail to be surprised at how vindictive so called "liberal" clerics can be. I do hope the congregation treated in this way flourishes and the church authorities are afflicted with piles.
I never fail to be surprised at how impertinent your responses are at nearly every opportunity.
We have a major problem with splitting congregations. It tears apart long standing church families over the politics of the day. One of the things causing splitters to consider a choice to leave carefully is the fact that they won't get church property. They'll be forced to meet in a school basement or a mini-mall on the other side of town until they can build the capital to construct their own sanctuary.
If we lease the building to them, we take away one of the deterrents of schism. If we make it a little harder to leave, maybe cooler heads will prevail.
I don't see it as a necessarily vindictive move, although it doesn't surprise me that the ACNA and people that sympathize with their "mission" would view the ECUSA as "evil." When your own propaganda teaches that we're not a real church but some soulless federation of libertines and atheists, it makes it hard to see attribute any positive or even neutral motives to our actions.
Most of those congregations have simply bought time. Parishioners will either rejoin the Episcopal Church when they realize that they've thrown in their lot with reactionary fundamentalists, or they or their families will drop out, like most in Christendom.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
A beautiful service and proclaiming the gospel aren't mutually exclusive. Being posh and proclaiming the gospel? Not so much.
IME, the posh parishes are usually MOTR to Low. High Church parishes are likely to have a wider distribution of varying socioeconomic circumstance, and more self-consciously Anglo-Catholic places are likely to have the least posh congregants overall. I have always gathered that the truly posh don't like heavy-duty ritualism.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
As an outsider - in Australia - Matt, I think whatever went on/is going on with the TEC has got many of its current members rattled. Really rattled. If you are badly enough rattled it often looks like you might be falling to pieces.
Being here I can only see it as an outsider. Whatever the truth of the matter is and what the outcome will be I really have no idea. It's a bit like watching a news clip from a war zone. The clip itself tells you very little. Analysts vary as to their insights and prognostications. Think tanks supposedly think. Foreign ministers make announcements. It's no clearer.
The thing is, on the ground much of TEC feels quiescent and business-as-usual. The current "situation" has been going on in one form or another since 1976, but most of the Church feels quite normal, even thriving. A lot depends on the diocese one is in and whether a mission plant was ever a viable thing in the first place. Some suburban plants never had much of a chance, never attaining parish status (i.e. never capable of full self-support and paying a normal diocesan assessment), maybe making it for some years to parish status before reverting back to mission status, or occasionally closing up shop. IMO, the latter hasn't happened nearly often enough. Many dinky litte TEC shacks need to be consolidated. There was a great deal of suburban mission planting in the late 1950s and early 1960s all over the country. Much of that was ill-advised even if well-intentioned.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
What happened in 1976 that triggered this?
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
I never fail to be surprised at how vindictive so called "liberal" clerics can be. I do hope the congregation treated in this way flourishes and the church authorities are afflicted with piles.
How is taking back the church property which these congregations flat out stole vindictive again?
Parishes hold their church property in trust for the Episcopal Church. Everyone knew this before the schism. If a congregation wants to split, fine, but they cannot take the patrimony of the Church with them.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
What happened in 1976 that triggered this?
An equine died in 1976, leading to the first significant defections from TEC and lawsuits over property. The next horse didn't die until the consecration of Gene Robinson during the past decade, although I'm sure the elevation of ++Katherine Jefferts-Schori to the Primacy of the national Church really got up the noses of people like +Jack Iker of Fort Worth. The secession of four dioceses, Iker's amongst them, has been most troubling but nonetheless really limited in scope. Taking Fort Worth as an example, several strong parishes remained in TEC and the TEC diocese there has been reconstituted so that it now expresses the ethos of the national Church and the progressives/loyalists who remained with TEC are no longer yoked to the arch-conservative reactionaries. The latter will most likely ultimately lose their property and their folk will have to make decisions as to whether to rejoin TEC, go to other established denominations, enter the Ordinariate (as quite a few of them are now already starting to do, to the loss of the secessionist diocese), or build/buy some tacky little worship-shacks of their own (which I actually don't think will suit many of the secessionists, who thus far have been able to stay in their own buildings and hold on to all their accustomed ecclesiastical ornaments, plate, etc).
[ 16. April 2012, 13:53: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
A beautiful service and proclaiming the gospel aren't mutually exclusive. Being posh and proclaiming the gospel? Not so much.
IME, the posh parishes are usually MOTR to Low. High Church parishes are likely to have a wider distribution of varying socioeconomic circumstance, and more self-consciously Anglo-Catholic places are likely to have the least posh congregants overall. I have always gathered that the truly posh don't like heavy-duty ritualism.
With one possible exception, I would agree. Anglo-Catholic parishes attract a variety of people from all over the geographical area. The posh must not like ritualism.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
It's true- the two parishes that might be called the poshest in my diocese are low (Trinity Church Copley Square) and middle-low (Church of the Redeemer Chestnut Hill). I don't know about the poshitude of nose-bleed high Church of the Advent, Back Bay though.
Zach
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
It's true- the two parishes that might be called the poshest in my diocese are low (Trinity Church Copley Square) and middle-low (Church of the Redeemer Chestnut Hill). I don't know about the poshitude of nose-bleed high Church of the Advent, Back Bay though.
Zach
I went to Advent for Easter Vigil (I was in town for the weekend). If I had to guess, the population was mostly very wealthy, from the surrounding Beacon Hill/Back Bay area, with a significant contingent of students from maybe Harvard or MIT.
That said, it didn't feel like a country club parish. They didn't make decidedly middle-middle-class me feel unwelcome (or particularly welcome, either).
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
I think a few of the old East Coast A-C parishes do have a considerable contingent of wealthy parishioners, but I don't think this is true of the majority of East Coast A-C shacks, nor at all the case for A-C parishes elsewhere in the USA.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
I never fail to be surprised at how vindictive so called "liberal" clerics can be. I do hope the congregation treated in this way flourishes and the church authorities are afflicted with piles.
How is taking back the church property which these congregations flat out stole vindictive again?
Parishes hold their church property in trust for the Episcopal Church. Everyone knew this before the schism. If a congregation wants to split, fine, but they cannot take the patrimony of the Church with them.
But whose patrimony is it? Surely the moral argument is with the congregation and not necessarily the church hierarchy. The church must be made up of its people and not some sort of legal entity!
The example was one where the authorities preferred to sell the property to become a mosque than to let the original congregation buy it at market value.
Apparently commenting on this as vindictive is seen as impertinent by some!
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
Mockingale writes:
quote:
If we make it a little harder to leave, maybe cooler heads will prevail.
I assure you that, in my painful experience, this is a fantasy. If anything, it has the opposite effect.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Mockingale writes:
quote:
If we make it a little harder to leave, maybe cooler heads will prevail.
I assure you that, in my painful experience, this is a fantasy. If anything, it has the opposite effect.
Well, at the very least, we're not rewarding their attempts at theft.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
But whose patrimony is it? Surely the moral argument is with the congregation and not necessarily the church hierarchy. The church must be made up of its people and not some sort of legal entity!
The example was one where the authorities preferred to sell the property to become a mosque than to let the original congregation buy it at market value.
Apparently commenting on this as vindictive is seen as impertinent by some!
Not impertinent- just false. You might imagine any number of moral arguments, but Church canons are clear that the church property belongs to the Episcopal Church, and exists for the propagation and worship of the Episcopal tradition. The schismatics, at least the ones with a lick of integrity, knew full well this was the case beforehand.
When a congregation votes to disassociate with the Episcopal Church, so far as the Episcopal Church is concerned an Episcopal congregation ceases to exist and a non-Episcopal congregation comes into existence. We wish them all the best, but that doesn't change the fact that the congregation is no longer using Church property for the propagation of the Episcopal faith. We have an Episcopal building with no Episcopal congregation to put in it.
So, unless the Episcopal Church can find a use for it, up for sale it goes. While it would be nice to find another Christian congregation to buy it, that isn't always possible and sometimes the place goes into secular use, such as a mosque. Again, so long as the schismatics make it their mission to preach against the Episcopal Church and seek to replace the Episcopal Church as the legitimate expression of Anglicanism in the United States, the property cannot be sold to them.
There's nothing vindictive about it- it's all about doing the best by the faith of the Episcopal Church. You can have our prayers, but you can hardly expect a free church out of the deal.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
I would also add that these legal disputes do not only involve physical property like land, buildings, or church plate. It also includes any endowments the congregations might have held, which often are very large.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Mockingale writes:
quote:
If we make it a little harder to leave, maybe cooler heads will prevail.
I assure you that, in my painful experience, this is a fantasy. If anything, it has the opposite effect.
Well, at the very least, we're not rewarding their attempts at theft.
Without getting into the ten-year-long fight at S Vartan's, where I was of the minority that held out against the pirate crew takeover (those shipmates who know me IRL are aware of the viciousness and unpleasantness of it all), I would not characterize their efforts as attempted theft (in Canada, the in-trust-for-the-national-church doctrine is not pertinent, either in canon or civil law). Their intent is not criminal, but rather contrary to legal provisions for ownership.
A split is a split and, like a divorce, we must make it as tidy as possible to that people can proceed forward with the least damage. Our local arrangement was a complex buy-back scheme whereby the pirates bought one of the two seceding churches. This partition seemed to have a cooling effect on post-split passions, and the Diocese and the pirate crew now cheerfully ignore each other and go about their business.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Their intent is not criminal, but rather contrary to legal provisions for ownership.
"It's not criminal, it's just contrary to the law!"
Again, we wish these people the best, but the primary concern of the Church must be the propagation of the Gospel as it understands it. How these parishes are to "get along" when they chose to leave is an ecumenical, and therefore secondary concern.
[ 16. April 2012, 17:18: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Beeswax Altar makes a number of good points above IMO. quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
If it was the "witness to a renewed Gospel" , it would be prospering. It is dying as previous posters have pointed out
In many ways it is prospering. A church where approx. 30% of the membership grew up in other traditions and made a conscious decision to join it, must have something compelling to offer, otherwise this wouldn't be occurring.
What Zach82 said: a church which is dependent on other traditions/ churchmanships for 30% of its membership is not in a healthy place. I would hazard more than an educated guess that a large part of that 30% come from more conservative, more evangelical backgrounds and have moved higher up the candle liturgically and to the left theologically as they have 'grown up' spiritually (as they would doubtless see it); the irony here therefore is that TEC needs the more con-evo denominations/ non-denoms for a significant proportion of its membership!
Actually I'd say most of that 30% is accounted for by former Catholics whether gay; divorced and remarried; or just plain theological liberal.
[ 16. April 2012, 17:20: Message edited by: CL ]
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Mockingale writes:
quote:
If we make it a little harder to leave, maybe cooler heads will prevail.
I assure you that, in my painful experience, this is a fantasy. If anything, it has the opposite effect.
Well, at the very least, we're not rewarding their attempts at theft.
Without getting into the ten-year-long fight at S Vartan's, where I was of the minority that held out against the pirate crew takeover (those shipmates who know me IRL are aware of the viciousness and unpleasantness of it all), I would not characterize their efforts as attempted theft (in Canada, the in-trust-for-the-national-church doctrine is not pertinent, either in canon or civil law). Their intent is not criminal, but rather contrary to legal provisions for ownership.
A split is a split and, like a divorce, we must make it as tidy as possible to that people can proceed forward with the least damage. Our local arrangement was a complex buy-back scheme whereby the pirates bought one of the two seceding churches. This partition seemed to have a cooling effect on post-split passions, and the Diocese and the pirate crew now cheerfully ignore each other and go about their business.
I understand that argument and its appeal. But it is the goal of the "Anglican Church of North America" and its leading bishops to usurp the Episcopal Church and destroy it, in effect remaking the Episcopal Church in its own image. I believe there are clergy and lay people who believe they are doing God's work, and that the church had gone too far. But I think the bishops recognize that they're trying to depose the Episcopal Church and put themselves in the place of the Presiding Bishop through a procedural Anglican Communion coup.
If it were merely a congregation or two that voted to go their own way and sought use of the sanctuary and their old bank accounts, I'd understand. But these churches are engaged in an insurrection. If they start using the old Episcopal church buildings, they further the perception that they are the legitimate continuation of Anglicanism in the United States and that TEC is dead or dying.
Not to mention how you'd feel if you were one of the congregants who voted to stay put in the church you grew up in, and watched your former friends take all the trappings of your church home with them. One of these remnant congregations was stuck worshipping in the living room of a rented house while the court battle was ongoing.
I don't blame the Presiding Bishop for playing hardball. The pleas by the ACNA for the Episcopal Church to "play fair" ring hollow, given their mission.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Their intent is not criminal, but rather contrary to legal provisions for ownership.
"It's not criminal, it's just contrary to the law!"
Again, we wish these people the best, but the primary concern of the Church must be the propagation of the Gospel as it understands it. How these parishes are to "get along" when they chose to leave is an ecumenical, and therefore secondary concern.
I am sorry, Zach82 (and Mockingale as well), I must disagree with you very strongly. Any armchair lawyer can distinguish between civil dispute and criminal action. Again, I note that I was in the trenches for long years fighting against them, but I knew them and their intent was not criminal. They were also dead wrong from the start, but the Diocese through its sloppiness and ambiguity gave them more cause than I would have liked--- but this leads into a Diocese of Ottawa tangent.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
I am sorry, Zach82 (and Mockingale as well), I must disagree with you very strongly. Any armchair lawyer can distinguish between civil dispute and criminal action. Again, I note that I was in the trenches for long years fighting against them, but I knew them and their intent was not criminal. They were also dead wrong from the start, but the Diocese through its sloppiness and ambiguity gave them more cause than I would have liked--- but this leads into a Diocese of Ottawa tangent.
Their intent is completely irrelevant. I am defending the integrity of the Episcopal Church. They don't have a right to a penny of the Church's patrimony, and the Episcopal Church is perfectly within its rights to throw them out of Episcopal buildings and to take back its own endowments.
Furthermore, even in a profoundly generous account of Christian charity, free churches and endowments can hardly be required of us.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
