|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: I spy strangers! Use of church space by other faiths.
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Why would Christianity have any regard for Judaism? Christianity has never regarded it as anything other than an apostate sect.
Absolutely. And no regard for the blood catholics with their unscriptural worship of Mary. And the Orthodox idolators. And those non-conformists with their nonsensical version of church. I wouldn't want to even sit down with any one of them, lest the faithful get confused and think them equal human beings.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
After all, we share this one with each other. The hostile and the counter-hostile, struggling for mutual benevolence.
To actually be recognisable to the world as Christians, yet.
I share my life more easily with Muslims, Sikhs, atheists and Hindus than I do with the vast majority of Christians of my face to face acquaintance.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
Is is possible to be a Christian and not believe in demons - especially demons which manage to divert the minds of people who believe that they are striving to reach God? Demons who are allowed by God to do that?
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I share my life more easily with Muslims, Sikhs, atheists and Hindus than I do with the vast majority of Christians of my face to face acquaintance.
People say this a lot. I think it's because, when it comes to followers of other religions we don't really expect anything from them except common courtesy. Conversely, our expectations of other Christians are always likely to lead to disappointment. We'd like them to be more like us than they are; we cringe when non-believers think these 'other' Christians are speaking on our behalf; we recoil at the thought of being lumped in with them and being associated with their behaviour or their beliefs.
It's like a disfunctional family whose members only get on with people they're not related to.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
After all, we share this one with each other. The hostile and the counter-hostile, struggling for mutual benevolence.
To actually be recognisable to the world as Christians, yet.
I share my life more easily with Muslims, Sikhs, atheists and Hindus than I do with the vast majority of Christians of my face to face acquaintance.
Then abandon the pretence of being a Christian, you'll be a lot happier.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
As I already said, preserving Christian places of worship for Christian worship is NOT denying the grace of Islamic prayers. Muslims, without a doubt, are right in many matters of faith. The other side of the question, which is being ignored, is the degree to which Christians can be complicit in the errors of Islam. Saying "Gee, all prayer is good, we need to support each other" is to gloss over these errors. Instead, Christian churches ought to be a testament to the fullness of the truth of the Gospel.
[ 19. March 2013, 20:06: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Christians need to scrape the gloss off their own errors first.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
After all, we share this one with each other. The hostile and the counter-hostile, struggling for mutual benevolence.
To actually be recognisable to the world as Christians, yet.
I share my life more easily with Muslims, Sikhs, atheists and Hindus than I do with the vast majority of Christians of my face to face acquaintance.
Then abandon the pretence of being a Christian, you'll be a lot happier.
Why?
It seems to me that he is exhibiting a very Christian attitude. (Unlike some on this thread.)
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Christians need to scrape the gloss off their own errors first.
Eh? I take it that's not from a Christian perspective. If Muslims want to pray for the conversion of Christians it's no skin off my nose. We pray for their conversion too. From a Christian perspective there are no errors in the Apostolic faith preserved undefiled in the Church by the Holy Spirit until the day of the Lord.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
They wrote the Mishnah (Repetition) in 200 AD, and the Gemara (Completion) in 500 AD. Both texts are much, much larger than the scriptures we share with them, and form the basis for all subsequent Judaism.
I think you'll be hard put to demonstrate how the Mishnah or Gemara appreciably change the character of Judaism. And they certainly don't supplant the Torah in the minds of any of the Jews I know.
Both orthodox and reform speak of 'the oral torah' as PART OF Torah. So they don't supplant it - they are part of it.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
After all, we share this one with each other. The hostile and the counter-hostile, struggling for mutual benevolence.
To actually be recognisable to the world as Christians, yet.
I share my life more easily with Muslims, Sikhs, atheists and Hindus than I do with the vast majority of Christians of my face to face acquaintance.
Then abandon the pretence of being a Christian, you'll be a lot happier.
Why?
It seems to me that he is exhibiting a very Christian attitude. (Unlike some on this thread.)
Eh? By praying with worshipers of idols and demons? Have you even read the sacred scriptures?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Let them share the building for goodness sake - it's just a building!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
A CONSECRATED building, Boogie-woogie - we musn't LOSE that.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Eh? By praying with worshipers of idols and demons? Have you even read the sacred scriptures?
This is not directed to me, and I'm sure many may comment.
First, have you ever told someone you disagree with, or is from a faith tradition different than your's that they are worshipping idols and demons in face-to-face discussion? It might enlighten you as to the appropriateness of this sort of comment. Second, have you ever been part of any discussion with people who are different than you? Also recommended. Third, asking if someone has read scripture is pretty rude, but perhaps you only meant 'don't you interpret scripture just as I do?' Some people here are rather educated, informed and understand just a few things, and differently than you. You are staking yourself out as intolerant and narrow-minded from what I'm seeing on this thread.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Let them share the building for goodness sake - it's just a building!
A CONSECRATED building, Boogie-woogie - we musn't LOSE that.
You're a good biblical Christian, Mark. Point me to the New Testament warrant for "consecrating" a building.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gextvedde
Shipmate
# 11084
|
Posted
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Why would Christianity have any regard for Judaism? Christianity has never regarded it as anything other than an apostate sect. I'd no sooner pray in the synagogues of the Jews than I would in the mosques of the Muslims.
Because without Judaism there would be NO Christianity perhaps...
Because Jesus was Jewish...
Because the leaders of the early church were Jewish...
Just a few thoughts. The list could be just a tad longer methinks.
--------------------
"We must learn to see that our temperament is a gift of God, a talent with which we must trade until he comes" Thomas Merton
Posts: 293 | From: The Twilight Zone, near the M25 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
Let's have some consistency here, it is absolutely not a consecrated building in any meaningful sense of the word consecrated.
It is the building used by a fissiparous sect, a disobedient schismatic group, separate from the body of Christ, in which no valid form of the Eucharist takes place and no priest with valid ordination presides. In what sense is that consecrated?
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
As we all worship the same God, I don't see a problem.
That's debatable. In fact I would argue that they don't, that the God they worship is a false god not being the God Christians worship, that they have have Satan as their father.
How sad for you. I'm truly mean that in a spirit of concern, not hellishly.
--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Why would Christianity have any regard for Judaism? Christianity has never regarded it as anything other than an apostate sect. I'd no sooner pray in the synagogues of the Jews than I would in the mosques of the Muslims.
Because without Judaism there would be NO Christianity perhaps...
Because Jesus was Jewish...
Because the leaders of the early church were Jewish...
Just a few thoughts. The list could be just a tad longer methinks.
They were Hebrews, they ceased being Jews at the Last Supper.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
After all, we share this one with each other. The hostile and the counter-hostile, struggling for mutual benevolence.
To actually be recognisable to the world as Christians, yet.
I share my life more easily with Muslims, Sikhs, atheists and Hindus than I do with the vast majority of Christians of my face to face acquaintance.
Then abandon the pretence of being a Christian, you'll be a lot happier.
Why?
It seems to me that he is exhibiting a very Christian attitude. (Unlike some on this thread.)
Well said, Leo.
Wasn't Jesus quoted as saying something to the effect that "Not everyone that says to me 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom"?
--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
He also said "no man comes to the Father but through me".
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Why would Christianity have any regard for Judaism? Christianity has never regarded it as anything other than an apostate sect. I'd no sooner pray in the synagogues of the Jews than I would in the mosques of the Muslims.
Because without Judaism there would be NO Christianity perhaps...
Because Jesus was Jewish...
Because the leaders of the early church were Jewish...
Just a few thoughts. The list could be just a tad longer methinks.
They were Hebrews, they ceased being Jews at the Last Supper.
I think that is a grossly antisemitic statement and I'd like you to retract it, please.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Why would Christianity have any regard for Judaism? Christianity has never regarded it as anything other than an apostate sect. I'd no sooner pray in the synagogues of the Jews than I would in the mosques of the Muslims.
Because without Judaism there would be NO Christianity perhaps...
Because Jesus was Jewish...
Because the leaders of the early church were Jewish...
Just a few thoughts. The list could be just a tad longer methinks.
All those things are quite irrelevant, that is, that they were physical descendants of Abraham. It counts for nothing. I am, of course, referring to the religion of the Jews which by the time of Jesus had fallen so far from the faith of Abraham that they rejected the very God they claimed to worship when he revealed himself to them in the flesh. So no, Christianity need have no regard for Judaism.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
Well at least they could get out of the rain. Not coming to the father is bad enough, but not making it to the father *and* being rained on has to be worse.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gextvedde
Shipmate
# 11084
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Why would Christianity have any regard for Judaism? Christianity has never regarded it as anything other than an apostate sect. I'd no sooner pray in the synagogues of the Jews than I would in the mosques of the Muslims.
Because without Judaism there would be NO Christianity perhaps...
Because Jesus was Jewish...
Because the leaders of the early church were Jewish...
Just a few thoughts. The list could be just a tad longer methinks.
They were Hebrews, they ceased being Jews at the Last Supper.
Sorry but I can't see that. They were still Jews, as were many, perhaps most, in the early 'church' until well into the latter years of the 1st century when a definite division began to open up.
--------------------
"We must learn to see that our temperament is a gift of God, a talent with which we must trade until he comes" Thomas Merton
Posts: 293 | From: The Twilight Zone, near the M25 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Eh? By praying with worshipers of idols and demons? Have you even read the sacred scriptures?
This is not directed to me, and I'm sure many may comment.
First, have you ever told someone you disagree with, or is from a faith tradition different than your's that they are worshipping idols and demons in face-to-face discussion? It might enlighten you as to the appropriateness of this sort of comment. Second, have you ever been part of any discussion with people who are different than you? Also recommended. Third, asking if someone has read scripture is pretty rude, but perhaps you only meant 'don't you interpret scripture just as I do?' Some people here are rather educated, informed and understand just a few things, and differently than you. You are staking yourself out as intolerant and narrow-minded from what I'm seeing on this thread.
The answers to your questions are no, yes and no. Regarding the last, the sacred scriptures are quite plain, that the Israel of God, that is the Church (which has existed since the beginning of the world) take no part in the worship of any other god except the one true God. The whole of the Old Testament gives witness to this and in the New Testament the Apostle especially warns us to take no part in such things.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
You're a good biblical Christian, Mark. Point me to the New Testament warrant for "consecrating" a building.
Consecration, in general, is an act by which a thing is separated from a common and profane to a sacred use, or by which a person or thing is dedicated to the service and worship of God by prayers, rites, and ceremonies.
The practice of Consecration is derived from the Old Testament, and it is explained here - including Bible verses.
Holy Tradition teaches us that much of the liturgy in the early church was derived from the synagogues.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
Doesn't Paul describe himself as a Jew in Acts? After the last supper?
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gextvedde
Shipmate
# 11084
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Why would Christianity have any regard for Judaism? Christianity has never regarded it as anything other than an apostate sect. I'd no sooner pray in the synagogues of the Jews than I would in the mosques of the Muslims.
Because without Judaism there would be NO Christianity perhaps...
Because Jesus was Jewish...
Because the leaders of the early church were Jewish...
Just a few thoughts. The list could be just a tad longer methinks.
All those things are quite irrelevant, that is, that they were physical descendants of Abraham. It counts for nothing. I am, of course, referring to the religion of the Jews which by the time of Jesus had fallen so far from the faith of Abraham that they rejected the very God they claimed to worship when he revealed himself to them in the flesh. So no, Christianity need have no regard for Judaism.
I'm at a bit of a loss as to how I should respond here. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) There I think that just about does it.
--------------------
"We must learn to see that our temperament is a gift of God, a talent with which we must trade until he comes" Thomas Merton
Posts: 293 | From: The Twilight Zone, near the M25 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Why would Christianity have any regard for Judaism? Christianity has never regarded it as anything other than an apostate sect. I'd no sooner pray in the synagogues of the Jews than I would in the mosques of the Muslims.
Because without Judaism there would be NO Christianity perhaps...
Because Jesus was Jewish...
Because the leaders of the early church were Jewish...
Just a few thoughts. The list could be just a tad longer methinks.
All those things are quite irrelevant, that is, that they were physical descendants of Abraham. It counts for nothing. I am, of course, referring to the religion of the Jews which by the time of Jesus had fallen so far from the faith of Abraham that they rejected the very God they claimed to worship when he revealed himself to them in the flesh. So no, Christianity need have no regard for Judaism.
I'm at a bit of a loss as to how I should respond here. There I think that just about does it.
Pray, tell me where I'm going wrong then? Or could just ask everyone to read chapters 17 and 18 of the Gospel of John which is solemnly sung on Good Friday.
[ 19. March 2013, 21:44: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Let's have some consistency here, it is absolutely not a consecrated building in any meaningful sense of the word consecrated.
It is the building used by a fissiparous sect, a disobedient schismatic group, separate from the body of Christ, in which no valid form of the Eucharist takes place and no priest with valid ordination presides. In what sense is that consecrated?
Who, exactly, are you talking about here, mdijon?
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
CL, happily, like our fellow catholic Anne Rice. If that would bring me closer to you.
Ad Orientem. God bless you. Er, how do you infer that I pray with Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus? I wish I did. It would be far more rewarding than praying with my fellow very broken Christians.
But that's the table our God has laid before me. I'd even pray with you.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
He also said "no man comes to the Father but through me".
It is Jesus who brings people to the Father -- which says nothing specific about what exact honestly-held beliefs persons might have (mistaken or otherwise) while still on this present earthly plane. Jesus does the bringing, not us.
[ 19. March 2013, 21:56: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gextvedde
Shipmate
# 11084
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Why would Christianity have any regard for Judaism? Christianity has never regarded it as anything other than an apostate sect. I'd no sooner pray in the synagogues of the Jews than I would in the mosques of the Muslims.
Because without Judaism there would be NO Christianity perhaps...
Because Jesus was Jewish...
Because the leaders of the early church were Jewish...
Just a few thoughts. The list could be just a tad longer methinks.
All those things are quite irrelevant, that is, that they were physical descendants of Abraham. It counts for nothing. I am, of course, referring to the religion of the Jews which by the time of Jesus had fallen so far from the faith of Abraham that they rejected the very God they claimed to worship when he revealed himself to them in the flesh. So no, Christianity need have no regard for Judaism.
I'm at a bit of a loss as to how I should respond here. There I think that just about does it.
Pray, tell me where I'm going wrong then? Or could just ask everyone to read chapters 17 and 18 of the Gospel of John which is solemnly sung on Good Friday.
I'd say the error is in writing off an entire religion, out of which Christianity grew and without which it would not exist, because of the actions of some. Some Jews responded positively, some didn't, some were just baffled.
--------------------
"We must learn to see that our temperament is a gift of God, a talent with which we must trade until he comes" Thomas Merton
Posts: 293 | From: The Twilight Zone, near the M25 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Ad Orientem. God bless you. Er, how do you infer that I pray with Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus? I wish I did. It would be far more rewarding than praying with my fellow very broken Christians.
But that's the table our God has laid before me. I'd even pray with you.
I never inferred that you prayed with anyone, not as far as I remember anyway. I did say, however, that I don't believe Christians should pray with non-Christians either in their temples or our churches, and I have argued that this is backed up by the scriptures and the practice of the Church.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Who, exactly, are you talking about here, mdijon?
Don't follow. Why do you need to ask? Are you making a point or have you just lost the thread?
[ 19. March 2013, 22:07: Message edited by: mdijon ]
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Pray, tell me where I'm going wrong then? Or could just ask everyone to read chapters 17 and 18 of the Gospel of John which is solemnly sung on Good Friday.
Why not go further and quote "his blood be on us and on our children" in justification of your stance.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
They were Hebrews, they ceased being Jews at the Last Supper.
I think this is false. James, when Bishop of Jerusalem, certainly behaved as a Jew, and probably a Nazirite. Peter encouraged Jewish Christians to eat apart from Gentile Christians, and to keep Torah, and is rebuked by Paul for doing so.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Who, exactly, are you talking about here, mdijon?
Don't follow. Why do you need to ask? Are you making a point or have you just lost the thread?
I seriously can't understand you. Who do you mean?
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
There are no strangers, no others in grace.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
As far as I am concerned the thread should have ended with this. If when we look at others we don't see strangers we don't need "religion".
That is true religion right there.
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
|
Posted
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
They were Hebrews, they ceased being Jews at the Last Supper.
You'd have to ignore a lot of scripture to believe this. Paul seemed to believe otherwise. He talks about the (non-believing) Jews throughout the book of Romans.
quote:
What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God. What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar.
and later...
quote:
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
--------------------
"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The practice of Consecration is derived from the Old Testament, and it is explained here - including Bible verses.
ISTM from a quick glance through that document, that consecration is clearly demonstrated in the Old Testament, absent from the New Testament, and then imported in to early Christianity from pagan Rome. So I'll treat consecration as a concept that is irrelevant to Christianity, if you don't mind... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
They were Hebrews, they ceased being Jews at the Last Supper.
I think this is false. James, when Bishop of Jerusalem, certainly behaved as a Jew, and probably a Nazirite. Peter encouraged Jewish Christians to eat apart from Gentile Christians, and to keep Torah, and is rebuked by Paul for doing so.
Indeed. Paul continued to self identify as a Pharisee and the son of a (non-believing) Pharisee even during his ministry.
quote:
When Paul noticed that some were Sadducees and others were Pharisees, he called out in the council, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. I am on trial concerning the hope of the resurrection of the dead.” When he said this, a dissension began between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, or angels, or spirits; but the Pharisees acknowledge all three.) Then a great clamor arose, and certain scribes of the Pharisees’ group stood up and contended, “We find nothing wrong with this man.
---Acts 23
--------------------
"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Christians need to scrape the gloss off their own errors first.
Eh? I take it that's not from a Christian perspective. If Muslims want to pray for the conversion of Christians it's no skin off my nose. We pray for their conversion too. From a Christian perspective there are no errors in the Apostolic faith preserved undefiled in the Church by the Holy Spirit until the day of the Lord.
Then you are wrong in what you take.
We 'see through a glass darkly'.
We need to take the log out of our own eyes before removing the mote from others.
We "Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. And if it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all."
I don't think of them as enemies, but if you do then you can extrapolate from "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.’ Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
Are you going to be the neighbourly good Samaritan, or the priest who walks by on the other side of the road saying 'we can't let them into our sacred building'?
Or are you going to be the lawyer and try to justify yourself for not being neighbourly to all?
Can't you lend them your building? ---
quote:
Luke 6
Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 ‘If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
I'm beginning to wonder how many people who call themselves Christians Ad Orientem would refuse to pray with on the grounds that they aren't "real" Christians....
--------------------
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Christians need to scrape the gloss off their own errors first.
Eh? I take it that's not from a Christian perspective. If Muslims want to pray for the conversion of Christians it's no skin off my nose. We pray for their conversion too. From a Christian perspective there are no errors in the Apostolic faith preserved undefiled in the Church by the Holy Spirit until the day of the Lord.
Then you are wrong in what you take.
We 'see through a glass darkly'.
We need to take the log out of our own eyes before removing the mote from others.
We "Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. And if it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all."
I don't think of them as enemies, but if you do then you can extrapolate from "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.’ Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
Are you going to be the neighbourly good Samaritan, or the priest who walks by on the other side of the road saying 'we can't let them into our sacred building'?
Or are you going to be the lawyer and try to justify yourself for not being neighbourly to all?
Can't you lend them your building? ---
quote:
Luke 6
Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 ‘If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Who said anything about being anybody's enemy? All I'm arguing that it is not right or proper for non-Christians to worship in our churches or for Christians to worship in the temples of non-Christians, and I would argue that this is backed up by the sacred scriptures and the constant practice of the Church.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
I'm beginning to wonder how many people who call themselves Christians Ad Orientem would refuse to pray with on the grounds that they aren't "real" Christians....
I have not and do not get into arguments about who is or who is not a "real" Christians. As far as I'm concerned anyone who has been baptised with water in the name of the Father and of the Son aned of the Holy Spirit has the right to refer to themselves as a Christian. That, of course, says nothing of orthodoxy though, and it is orthodoxy I'm concerned with and endeavour to present.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
He also said "no man comes to the Father but through me".
It is Jesus who brings people to the Father -- which says nothing specific about what exact honestly-held beliefs persons might have (mistaken or otherwise) while still on this present earthly plane. Jesus does the bringing, not us.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Who said anything about being anybody's enemy? All I'm arguing that it is not right or proper for non-Christians to worship in our churches or for Christians to worship in the temples of non-Christians, and I would argue that this is backed up by the sacred scriptures and the constant practice of the Church.
All I am saying is to beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and the traditions of the elders.
--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Who said anything about being anybody's enemy? All I'm arguing that it is not right or proper for non-Christians to worship in our churches or for Christians to worship in the temples of non-Christians, and I would argue that this is backed up by the sacred scriptures and the constant practice of the Church.
All I am saying is to beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and the traditions of the elders.
Sigh! So, it's pharisaic to have nothing to with false gods and the religions that surround them? If we look to the Old Testament what's one thing we see? T calamity fell upon the Hebrew people everytime they turned away from the one true God and allowed themselves to be defiled by false gods. In the New Testament the Apostle especially beseeches us to having nothing to with them and this is reflected too in the ancient canons of the Church. This is pharisaic is it? Good grief! To argue such is really a great feat of hermeneutical gymnastics.
[ 20. March 2013, 06:52: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Jewish = from or descended from Judah. That's it. So no, the Jews did not stop being Jewish at the Last Supper - and certainly not Our Lord, who being a descendent of Judah is certainly a Jew regarding his whole Earthly life.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
