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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: I spy strangers! Use of church space by other faiths.
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
the risk aired above of its being subsequently used to claim a land-grab
Which seems a weird thing to worry about. Radical Muslims may believe that the church in Aberdeen is now 'theirs' but Scottish law is hardly going to let them exercise this 'right'. Sylvander cites Cologne cathedral which, I note, is still Catholic nearly 50 years after the event.
If radical Islam ever became so powerful in Scotland that radical Muslims were able to occupy the church, then Christians are pretty screwed anyway regardless of the situation in this particular church. And if radical Muslims decide they can act extra-judicially then, again, they're a threat regardless of this church.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Vulpior:
quote:
For me, any sharing agreement would have to be based on mutual respect. I would be happier offering our church hall than our church, because it is quite clearly a Christian space and you'd be implying that people have to put up with that and block it from their mind.
My understanding, which could be wrong, is that this is what has happened; the Muslims primarily use the church hall, but use the church itself for "overspill" once the hall is full. The church itself is full of pews, which presumably create a practical difficulty in terms of prostrate prayer.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
This might also be of interest to those following this thread.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
The cross and the Eucharist are classic examples. If we invite Jews to use our church, we might be able to lift down the altar cross. But there's a crucifix above the pulpit, and another 'dying-Jew-on-a-stick' in the East window, that one with INRI indelibly displayed. Over in the corner there's the special leftovers from our 'new-and-better' version of the Passover meal.
It is always embarrassing, especially for the British, to declare that 'my way is better than your way'. It goes against all our deeply inbuilt notions of self-effacement. But it is important, I feel, to get past these feelings of embarrasment and preach 'the Way the Truth and the Life'. We should never be embarrassed about who we are and what we beleive. And we should certainly not be embarrased about displaying the symbols of our Lord proudly and clearly before all others, whatever their religion or creed.
Luke 9:26: "Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory"
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Personally, I'm painfully aware that there are hundreds of religious beliefs in the world and the fact that I ended up with Christianity when I "got religion" is almost entirely down to the fact that Christianity was the dominant religious belief in the society in which I grew up. Had I been born in Tunisia it's odds on I'd be a muslim.
I therefore find believing with any certainty that I've managed to pick the "right one", which it's so contingent, quite problematic.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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ButchCassidy
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# 11147
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Posted
Yes to Hawk. And were I to even mentally consider taking down a cross in order to avoid 'offending' Jews (its a church, what do they expect), I think I would have Peter's sermons to the Jews in Acts 3-4 screaming in my head. Peter loved the Jews, his own people, and part of that love was to explain the truth to them. Doesn't mean I would do all his 'you killed the author of life' stuff (he could get away with it, being one of the family himself)! But wouldnt want to hide what we in the church believe.
[ 22. March 2013, 11:13: Message edited by: ButchCassidy ]
Posts: 104 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Personally, I'm painfully aware that there are hundreds of religious beliefs in the world and the fact that I ended up with Christianity when I "got religion" is almost entirely down to the fact that Christianity was the dominant religious belief in the society in which I grew up. Had I been born in Tunisia it's odds on I'd be a muslim.
I'd probably be the same. I would hope that the Holy Spirit would have still revealed Jesus to me, but would I have had the courage to go against my culture and follow Jesus in response? I have little courage at the best of times. So I thank God for his grace, that I have been blessed by being born in a country where Christianity is dominent. In the same way as I am grateful that I was born in a time and place where democracy, freedom, rule of law, a national health service, a welfare system, and a good standard of income are the norm. Most people in the world do not have these blessings. And I certainly will not spurn these benefits by considering them of little worth. Being brought up in a Christian household is a pearl of great worth.
[ 22. March 2013, 12:23: Message edited by: Hawk ]
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I wasn't.
That's not my point though; my point is that we really, really don't know that we've got the "right one". It's perfectly possibly that the Muslims are right. Or the Jews. Or the Hindus. Or the Sikhs. Or none of 'em. Or all of 'em, a bit.
Definitive statements to the contrary just seem hubristic to me.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Definitive statements to the contrary just seem hubristic to me.
Seems like a statement of faith to me
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
If your definition of faith is "things I want to be true so am going to believe in even though I've got no solid reason for believing they are."
At least that's what it would mean if I said it.
Perhaps I don't do this "faith" thing very well.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
I would hope that the Holy Spirit would have still revealed Jesus to me, but would I have had the courage to go against my culture and follow Jesus in response? I have little courage at the best of times.
I'm disturbed, though finding it hard to explain why, by this. I think it might suggest that you believe that of the millions of muslims in the world, there are some (many?) to whom the HOly Spirit has revealed Jesus, but they do not "have the courage" to follow him.
I would refer to, rather than repeat, my post above in which I note that the Gospels show that there are many ways for the Holy Spirit to reveal Jesus to us. Of the ways told in the Gospels, not all result in explicit recognition of Jesus as Son of God, yet we are left in no doubt as to their saving grace.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
quote:
For me, any sharing agreement would have to be based on mutual respect. I would be happier offering our church hall than our church, because it is quite clearly a Christian space and you'd be implying that people have to put up with that and block it from their mind.
My understanding, which could be wrong, is that this is what has happened; the Muslims primarily use the church hall, but use the church itself for "overspill" once the hall is full. The church itself is full of pews, which presumably create a practical difficulty in terms of prostrate prayer.
That's how I read the original press release, in which case most of the debate on this thread is irrelevant.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
I would rather say "something I believe to be true, even though I cannot be sure, so I will act as though I am sure, rather than according to my uncertainty."
Faith is a choice, not forced on us by overwhelming evidence, but encouraged by the slow revelation of the Spirit. We can never know anything for sure, but we cannot move forward if we are constantly undecided as to the direction. We cannot win any victories for Christ if we have a foot in both camps, forever hesitating. At some point in our life we must decide once and for all what we believe. We must nail our colours to the mast.
Because faith is vital. Without faith, we have no sure hope of resurrection, no clear idea of God's will, no relationship with Jesus. Without it Christianity is just another religion, trying to find God by stumbling in the dark, no better or worse than any other way. With faith, we can move mountains.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I'm not built that way. If I'm uncertain, I'm uncertain. No amount of determination to pretend otherwise changes that.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
there are some (many?) to whom the HOly Spirit has revealed Jesus, but they do not "have the courage" to follow him.
Probably. It takes great courage to convert. I doubt that everyone who hears the name of Jesus responds with faith in Him. I think its likely that the minority do, many being like the rich man who was told by Jesus to give away all his money and follow him, but went away sad, because he couldn't do it. It is a painful sacrifice for many to follow Jesus, we should never claim it is easy.
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Of the ways told in the Gospels, not all result in explicit recognition of Jesus as Son of God, yet we are left in no doubt as to their saving grace.
I don't think there are any times in the gospels when someone is declared as saved even though they explicitly reject Jesus as the Son of God. There are times when we are not given the end of the story, when people are healed and Jesus moves on, and we don't know whether they came to believe in Him or not. What are you referring to.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm not built that way. If I'm uncertain, I'm uncertain. No amount of determination to pretend otherwise changes that.
It's not pretence. That's why it's called 'faith' instead of 'proof'. That's why the Jews were called 'Israel' (struggles with God). Doubt and uncertainty are a major part of faith, otherwise it wouldn't be faith.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
there are some (many?) to whom the HOly Spirit has revealed Jesus, but they do not "have the courage" to follow him.
Probably. It takes great courage to convert. I doubt that everyone who hears the name of Jesus responds with faith in Him. I think its likely that the minority do, many being like the rich man who was told by Jesus to give away all his money and follow him, but went away sad, because he couldn't do it. It is a painful sacrifice for many to follow Jesus, we should never claim it is easy.
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Of the ways told in the Gospels, not all result in explicit recognition of Jesus as Son of God, yet we are left in no doubt as to their saving grace.
I don't think there are any times in the gospels when someone is declared as saved even though they explicitly reject Jesus as the Son of God. There are times when we are not given the end of the story, when people are healed and Jesus moves on, and we don't know whether they came to believe in Him or not. What are you referring to.
This
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
This
Okay, I think I understand what you're saying now. Salvation is not based on intellectual assent to a precise theological position. Just that we put our recognition and trust in Jesus that He has the divine power and authority necessary to save us. All the people in your examples exhibited such faith. Is that a good summary?
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm not built that way. If I'm uncertain, I'm uncertain. No amount of determination to pretend otherwise changes that.
It's not pretence. That's why it's called 'faith' instead of 'proof'. That's why the Jews were called 'Israel' (struggles with God). Doubt and uncertainty are a major part of faith, otherwise it wouldn't be faith.
if I told someone of another faith that I thought that I was right and they were wrong, giving any indication that I had any significant confidence in that statement, I'd be pretending. YMMV, naturally.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I could say with perfect integrity "I have committed myself to this tradition, in which I have found strength and meaning to cope with life."
The wisest words I ever heard in a sermon were "faith is not the opposite of doubt".
The opposite of faith is certainty. Faith isn't a theory to believe, it is a way of life to follow, and if there isn't doubt, there's no moving forward or following.
Faith is moving forward into the darkness?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm not built that way. If I'm uncertain, I'm uncertain. No amount of determination to pretend otherwise changes that.
It's not pretence. That's why it's called 'faith' instead of 'proof'. That's why the Jews were called 'Israel' (struggles with God). Doubt and uncertainty are a major part of faith, otherwise it wouldn't be faith.
if I told someone of another faith that I thought that I was right and they were wrong, giving any indication that I had any significant confidence in that statement, I'd be pretending. YMMV, naturally.
The operative words are 'significant confidence'. This does not equal 'certainty'.
I have significant confidence in Jesus Christ.
I appreciate YMMV
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
This
Okay, I think I understand what you're saying now. Salvation is not based on intellectual assent to a precise theological position. Just that we put our recognition and trust in Jesus that He has the divine power and authority necessary to save us. All the people in your examples exhibited such faith. Is that a good summary?
Yes. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
Salvation is not based on intellectual assent to a precise theological position. Just that we put our recognition and trust in Jesus that He has the divine power and authority necessary to save us. All the people in your examples exhibited such faith. Is that a good summary?
Yes.
Amen!
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Strictly speaking, Erroneous Monk and Malik, Protestant doctrine has it that we are 'saved by grace through faith'. It's the grace that saves. Faith is not a work.
But I'll let wiser minds than mine tussle with that one.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Strictly speaking, Erroneous Monk and Malik, Protestant doctrine has it that we are 'saved by grace through faith'. It's the grace that saves. Faith is not a work.
But I'll let wiser minds than mine tussle with that one.
Gamaliel, I 100% agree with that also -- I wasn't interpreting the statement that I "Amen"ed above to mean that our trusting in Jesus is a work we do that saves us. I believe it truly is all Jesus' work.
If i am not mistaken (and i am open to correction if i am mistaken) i seem to remember a joint 1960s or 1970s Lutheran-Roman Catholic declaration that agreed with the above.
Actually i would add that, it all being Jesus' work, Jesus can save whomever he wants, including people who, in this life, are non-Christians. Jesus does the saving, not us. But i guess that viewpoint is part of what has helped generate some of the fireworks in this thread.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Strictly speaking, Erroneous Monk and Malik, Protestant doctrine has it that we are 'saved by grace through faith'. It's the grace that saves. Faith is not a work.
But I'll let wiser minds than mine tussle with that one.
I see it as a little analogous to Indiana Jones at the end of the Last Crusade. He is hanging off the edge of the precipice struggling to grab hold of the Grail by himself when his father says "Indy, let it go". So Indy stops trying to grab the grail and lets his father lift him to safety.
Admittedly it takes no 'work' to allow our father to lift us to safety, but it does take a conscious decision and even an effort, to turn away from trying to grasp the things we are so desperate for, and submit to God's will.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
Perhaps. I would suggest it is more likely that it will encourage them in the practice of their own religion.
How important is that judgement to your position? For instance, if you became convinced that on average muslims were more likely to convert to Christianity as a result of encountering Christians who gave them shelter to pray rather than if they encouter Christians who clearly demonstrate they cannot allow them to pray in a church.... would that be enough to make you think you should change your stance?
I am confused as to how, following Hawk's argument, having some Muslims decide "blow this for a lark, I'm not praying in the rain" and staying home is a good thing for anyone.
They're not coming closer to God by being "bad" Muslims - they're moving from faithfully following the rules of Islam towards laissez-faire secularism. I don't see how that brings them closer to Christ.
And you think being in a religion that explicitly teaches Jesus is not the Christ will bring them closer to Christ? And you think ritual practices of any religion would bring them closer to Christ????
The problem is not about the use of the space itself. It´s about a christian church helping to promote a religion that explicitly denies Christ.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
And you think being in a religion that explicitly teaches Jesus is not the Christ will bring them closer to Christ? And you think ritual practices of any religion would bring them closer to Christ????
No, but the experience of Christian kindness might.
[ 23. March 2013, 09:48: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
What I imagine is that these two neighbouring groups of worshippers had a fairly good and respectful relationship already, and it didn't seem like too much of a stretch for them to help each other out.
Maybe it also helped that the priest is Asian, and perhaps has positive personal connections with Islam. I know some Asian British clergy who are very into interfaith work and the liberation paradigm, and they'd surely applaud this gesture. It arises out of a particular theology, and that can be respected. (We should remember, though, that other Asian Christians have more negative experiences of Islam.)
What I find harder to except is the implication that Christianity has to be gutted in order to be 'kind'. It doesn't seem theological, and it doesn't seem to be honest about Christianity or about other religions. There's a point at which the cuddly approach to other religions actually seems quite disrespectful. It certainly doesn't elicit much respect in return; in the UK Muslims occasionally reproach Christians for being wishy-washy, and I can see why they would, to be honest. Something's missing somewhere.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Brian McLaren explores this brilliantly in Why Did Jesus, Moses, the Buddha, and Mohammed Cross the Road? Christian Identity in a Multi-faith World.
Christianity is either strong and hostile or weak and benevolent. The third way - Jesus' way - is strong and benevolent.
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Love wins
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