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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Zimmerman acquitted
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If one thinks this person a potential criminal, but not this one...
Is there any evidence that Zimmerman would not consider the second person suspicious if he was acting in exactly the same way Martin was?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
You know, it's perfectly possible for two people to have entirely different perceptions of the same situation.
Once, after I told off a staffer for something she did wrong, she went to my boss and accused me of racism. I made no mention of her race in the course of her telling-off, but she nevertheless "heard" racist remarks in everything I said.
Her evidence for my racism was this: a white staffer was doing the same wrong thing she was, and I didn't tell off the white staffer.
Problem was, I wasn't aware the white staffer was up to no good; that's why I didn't tell him off.
I've thought this over many times since. Is it possible that I actually am racist, albeit unconsciously? Was I scrutinizing her behavior due to her race, while not scrutinizing the other staffer's behavior because of his? If so, I was unaware of it.
Now, to be fair, she assumed I had known all about her co-worker's behavior; I hadn't. Once I found out about it, I did tell him off. But from her perspective, he only got told off after/because she complained to the boss about my racism.
AFAICT, she remained a victim of racism in her own mind as long as she worked with us. AFAICT, she was not.
How do we determine who's right? Who gets to decide what racism is, how it's expressed, and whether it's present?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Who gets to decide what racism is, how it's expressed, and whether it's present?
In Florida, the person with the gun decides...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
And that decision is often final.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Here is a quote from the blog lilBudddha linked to: quote:
What began as annoying 911 operators with pointless complaints escalated to notifying the authorities any time he saw a black male he didn’t know.
Does anyone know how often, if ever, Zimmermann's suspicions were justified? If they were frequently justified, Zimmermann was right to make these reports. How does the blogger know that he phoned the authorities every time he saw a black male he didn't know?
There are some unproven assumptions here.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
The only evidence is that he doesn't seem to have called in any people to 911 who weren't black per lilbuddha's link.
That's only evidence of racism if you assume that there were equal numbers of white/black people acting suspiciously. Is that a reasonable assumption?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
The only evidence is that he doesn't seem to have called in any people to 911 who weren't black per lilbuddha's link.
That's only evidence of racism if you assume that there were equal numbers of white/black people acting suspiciously. Is that a reasonable assumption?
Considering how many months were covered, and considering that I have heard that African-Americans are a decisive minority there, the odds seem to me that a person as nosy as Zimmerman was would have seen something being done imperfect* by a non-black person. That is only a statement of odds though, so maybe only black people do unusual things in that town.
*At least as imperfect as being rained on
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Here is a quote from the blog lilBudddha linked to: quote:
What began as annoying 911 operators with pointless complaints escalated to notifying the authorities any time he saw a black male he didn’t know.
Does anyone know how often, if ever, Zimmermann's suspicions were justified? If they were frequently justified, Zimmermann was right to make these reports. How does the blogger know that he phoned the authorities every time he saw a black male he didn't know?
There are some unproven assumptions here.
But they're fairly reasonable ones. We've got one well-examined example (Trayvon Martin) where Zimmerman's supposed crime-detecting sixth sense was just plain wrong. There don't seem to be any examples of him calling in any "unfamiliar white males", something fairly notable in a community ~50% white. Did Zimmerman personally know all the white people in his neighborhood, who never had unfamiliar (to Zimmerman) relatives come for a visit and who never ventured out in the rain?
Given the amount of spin Zimmerman's defense tried to put on irrelevancies (e.g. Martin's past marijuana use), I think we can be fairly certain that if a clear case existed where Zimmerman's suspicions had been justified, we'd have heard about it by now.
In short, the assumptions that have to packed in to your speculation that Zimmerman just happened to run across a whole bunch of black criminals and zero white ones are far more tenuous and counterintuitive than than the observation that one of the markers Zimmerman used as an identifier of criminality was blackness.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
There are some unproven assumptions here.
But they're fairly reasonable ones.
<snip>
Given the amount of spin Zimmerman's defense tried to put on irrelevancies (e.g. Martin's past marijuana use), I think we can be fairly certain that if a clear case existed where Zimmerman's suspicions had been justified, we'd have heard about it by now.
In short, the assumptions that have to packed in to your speculation that Zimmerman just happened to run across a whole bunch of black criminals and zero white ones are far more tenuous and counterintuitive than than the observation that one of the markers Zimmerman used as an identifier of criminality was blackness.
That's pretty much the way it looked to me too.
But none of that makes him a murderer, of course.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
The only evidence is that he doesn't seem to have called in any people to 911 who weren't black per lilbuddha's link.
That's only evidence of racism if you assume that there were equal numbers of white/black people acting suspiciously. Is that a reasonable assumption?
Actually, to get a 50% chance of generating that 46-0 breakdown you'd have to assume that the number of non-black people acting at least as suspiciously as Trayvon Martin (wearing a hoodie in the rain) is about 1.5% of the sample set. In other words, a rough ratio of ~67 suspicious black people for every non-black person fitting Zimmerman's definition of "suspicious".
To get a 5% chance of just coincidentally getting that 46-0 breakdown (5% is a rough rule-of-thumb value below which statisticians usually assume selection bias) you'd have to assume about a 16:1 ratio of black suspicious people:non-black suspicious people.
That's just a rough, back-of-the envelope calculation, but I think it's sufficient to demonstrate that you don't need to assume "equal numbers of white/black people acting suspiciously" to demonstrate Zimmerman's selection bias, just a ratio lower than 16:1.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Croesos
There don't seem to be any examples of him calling in any "unfamiliar white males", something fairly notable in a community ~50% white.
Is this a figure for the city of Sanford or the community where Zimmermann lived? I haven't been able to find statistics for Zimmermann's community. If that is what this is, where did you find it?
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Croesos
There don't seem to be any examples of him calling in any "unfamiliar white males", something fairly notable in a community ~50% white.
Is this a figure for the city of Sanford or the community where Zimmermann lived? I haven't been able to find statistics for Zimmermann's community. If that is what this is, where did you find it?
Moo
It's for the local community, not Sanford as a whole. I got it from this website. I haven't bothered to double-check their figures against census block data.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That's just a rough, back-of-the envelope calculation, but I think it's sufficient to demonstrate that you don't need to assume "equal numbers of white/black people acting suspiciously" to demonstrate Zimmerman's selection bias, just a ratio lower than 16:1.
I won't argue with your numbers, but my point was pretty much that if the fact that none of the people he reported were white was because there weren't any white people acting suspiciously to start with, he's not a racist.
What was he supposed to do? Stop reporting suspicious characters until one of them happened to be white, in order to even up the numbers a bit?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That's just a rough, back-of-the envelope calculation, but I think it's sufficient to demonstrate that you don't need to assume "equal numbers of white/black people acting suspiciously" to demonstrate Zimmerman's selection bias, just a ratio lower than 16:1.
I won't argue with your numbers, but my point was pretty much that if the fact that none of the people he reported were white was because there weren't any white people acting suspiciously to start with, he's not a racist.
Is that a reasonable assumption to make, though? That in a neighborhood that was ~20% black, no non-black ever took a walk in the rain? Or wore a hoodie?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That's just a rough, back-of-the envelope calculation, but I think it's sufficient to demonstrate that you don't need to assume "equal numbers of white/black people acting suspiciously" to demonstrate Zimmerman's selection bias, just a ratio lower than 16:1.
I won't argue with your numbers, but my point was pretty much that if the fact that none of the people he reported were white was because there weren't any white people acting suspiciously to start with, he's not a racist.
What was he supposed to do? Stop reporting suspicious characters until one of them happened to be white, in order to even up the numbers a bit?
Prior to changing patterns, he was reporting to the emergency response numberthe suspicious behaviour of missing tarmac. Hardly behaviour suggesting discernment.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That in a neighborhood that was ~20% black, no non-black ever took a walk in the rain? Or wore a hoodie?
That very few of the local population ever loitered in the rain I can well believe.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That in a neighborhood that was ~20% black, no non-black ever took a walk in the rain? Or wore a hoodie?
That very few of the local population ever loitered in the rain I can well believe.
Very few introduce themselves to others by jumping out from behind bushes for some ground and pound action, too.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
But I very much doubt that all those who did loiter in the rain were black simply because there is no reason why African-Americans like getting rained on more than any other race.
Actually, I could well believe that only one person did so. Like you say, most people don't like getting wet and so will hurry on to wherever they're going.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
But I very much doubt that all those who did loiter in the rain were black simply because there is no reason why African-Americans like getting rained on more than any other race.
Actually, I could well believe that only one person did so. Like you say, most people don't like getting wet and so will hurry on to wherever they're going.
Unless they've managed to master the idea "if I wait under this overhang, maybe it will stop". Truly advanced thinking, that.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Like you say, most people don't like getting wet and so will hurry on to wherever they're going.
I had a dog who loved running in the surf and splashing about. Yet when I gave him a bath, he looked at me as if I had stolen his favourite bone.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yeah, but teenagers love loitering in the rain.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That in a neighborhood that was ~20% black, no non-black ever took a walk in the rain? Or wore a hoodie?
That very few of the local population ever loitered in the rain I can well believe.
Very few introduce themselves to others by jumping out from behind bushes for some ground and pound action, too.
Oh you mean from behind the bushes that didn't exist:http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/07/02/george-zimmerman-trial-inconsistencies-zimmerman-story
and the headpounding that was fixed with a couple of plasters - no concusion nor a visit to the hospital needed. Incredible that!
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yeah, but teenagers love loitering in the rain.
I loved walking around in the rain well into my mid-20s. I still enjoy it in climates where it's warm and rainy in the summer -- a walk in a light rain on a warm afternoon is nice.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Very few introduce themselves to others by jumping out from behind bushes for some ground and pound action, too.
That's a good point. Very few do. And yet Zimmerman says Martin did. It's almost as if Zimmerman were lying about it to boost his side of the story. But it's not as if Zimmerman had a motive for doing that, is it?
[ 24. July 2013, 19:02: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That in a neighborhood that was ~20% black, no non-black ever took a walk in the rain? Or wore a hoodie?
That very few of the local population ever loitered in the rain I can well believe.
Very few introduce themselves to others by jumping out from behind bushes for some ground and pound action, too.
That's a good point. Very few do. And yet Zimmerman says Martin did. Still, is it more likely that Zimmerman had a motive for lying about what happened?
According to Good's testimony he saw Martin on top doing the ground and pound.
article
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Once again for emphasis, eyewitness are unreliable. The vast majority of people do not make reliable eyewitnesses. Test after test, trial re-examination after trial re-examination confirms this.
Second, the more detail a non-expert puts into their story, the more suspect it should be.
Think less Sherlock Holmes and more Murder by Death.
Does this mean Good is wrong? No, it means his testimony is less indicative than it might appear.
And irrelevant regardless. It is the instigator of the fight who would be at fault, not whoever is winning at the moment of observation.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Once again for emphasis, eyewitness are unreliable. The vast majority of people do not make reliable eyewitnesses. Test after test, trial re-examination after trial re-examination confirms this.
Second, the more detail a non-expert puts into their story, the more suspect it should be.
Think less Sherlock Holmes and more Murder by Death.
Does this mean Good is wrong? No, it means his testimony is less indicative than it might appear.
And irrelevant regardless. It is the instigator of the fight who would be at fault, not whoever is winning at the moment of observation.
He's more reliable than you and I've yet to see any evidence that Zimmerman threw the first punch.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
...I've yet to see any evidence that Zimmerman threw the first punch.
There were no signs on Martin's or Zimmermann's body that Zimmermann hit Martin at all. There were clear signs on Zimmermann's body and Martin's hands that Martin hit Zimmermann.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
He's more reliable than you and I've yet to see any evidence that Zimmerman threw the first punch.
You have no evidence or indication that he is more or less reliable than I am, only that he is more likely to have seen something in this instance.
There is no evidence beyond Zimmerman's testimony regarding who threw the first punch.
First punch is irrelevant, regardless. First punch is not always the instigator and, as has been mentioned, not necessarily relevant under Florida law.
[ 24. July 2013, 22:20: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[Zimmerman]'s more reliable than you and I've yet to see any evidence that Zimmerman threw the first punch.
I'm not sure it's possible to reconcile your assertion that George Zimmerman's testimony is reliable with your earlier post that he's willing to tell legally convenient lies.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You have no evidence or indication that he is more or less reliable than I am, only that he is more likely to have seen something in this instance.
There is no evidence beyond Zimmerman's testimony regarding who threw the first punch.
First punch is irrelevant, regardless. First punch is not always the instigator and, as has been mentioned, not necessarily relevant under Florida law.
The jury sure seems to have believed him.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[Zimmerman]'s more reliable than you and I've yet to see any evidence that Zimmerman threw the first punch.
I'm not sure it's possible to reconcile your assertion that George Zimmerman's testimony is reliable with your earlier post that he's willing to tell legally convenient lies.
My link is about Good's testimony.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
The jury sure seems to have believed him.
Maybe; maybe not. The jury at one point had questions about the manslaughter charge, did they not? To me that suggests they were at least considering that penalty at some point.
What the jury had, bottom line, was substantial reasonable doubt about Zimmerman's culpability under the law as it now stands for murder in the 2nd degree or for manslaughter. Given the prosecution's dismal job of making their case against Zimmerman (and the equally crap police investigation, due (IMO) to the crap SYG law, the jury had little choice.
And that, my friends, is exactly the problem with SYG laws. Strip away racism, if any; strip away the whole legal standing, if any, of neighborhood watch team captains. Strip away questions of who started "it" (whatever "it" may be), and here's what you've got: legally defensible slaughter.
Two people, each with a "right" to be where they are; neither with a duty to retreat where retreat is possible when things turn threatening; couple all that to concealed-carry laws in all 50 of these soon-to-be Disunited States (since we'll all apparently be in shootouts with each other) and it's a Full Employment Act for criminal defense attorneys and (where cases have survivors) emergency room doctors forever.
Why don't we just re-institute the duel?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
SYG was not in play in the Zimmerman trial, was it? article
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
SYG was not in play in the Zimmerman trial, was it? article
As already noted at least twice previously on this thread, SYG formed part of the judge's instructions to the jury.
SYG was not cited by the defense.
SYG was possibly a factor in the initial investigation by the police. Had SYG not been on the books, it's possible (IANAL) that the original investigation would have been handled somewhat differently.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
One of the problems with a "Stand Your Ground" type of law is not merely when it can be invoked in court, but in the influence over actions in the initial instance.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
Wow. Over here, ok. We had a Green foreign affairs minister who was photographed beating policemen with bats and spades in his "wild youth". Not to mention some of our politicians in the 1950s...
Being informed however that Barack Obama once was something of a drug taking hoodie, repeatedly relegated from school, skulking and looking for fights surprises me. Is this the same country where Bill Clinton got grilled over the alleged inhalation or not of marijuana? Have the US become so forgiving all of a sudden?
Well, Pres. Obama was pretty open about that, before he even ran. I believe the gist of it was in one or the other of his books. (Which I haven't read.) I think it was wise. Basic rule of PR: if something negative about you might come out, be the first to tell it--that will give you a chance to shape and control it. From what I understand, ALL the adults in his immediate family had substance abuse problems. (Not just his dad.) And I suspect he tended to feel like an outsider: mixed race; living in various cultures; absent dad; (sometimes?) strained relationship with his mom; abusive Indonesian step-dad, who hit his mom and was also an alcoholic; grandma told him she was afraid of black men on the streets, etc. I gather that Michelle helped him sort out the substance abuse.
I'm not sure if Obama got into trouble as a teen, besides smoking pot. I think his self-comparison with Trayvon was about being a troubled young man, of African ancestry, who experienced being profiled and followed--as many/most African-American men do.
Clinton, OTOH, is a born politician and lawyer, and delights in getting away with stuff.
And Dubya had a substance abuse background, too.
We probably don't need to get into Pres. Grant's extremely heavy drinking. That was a different time.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Why don't we just re-institute the duel?
Because it's not about two people with a mutual grudge duking it out. The more correct analogy would be to re-institute lynching.
Which I guess we have.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
The only evidence is that he doesn't seem to have called in any people to 911 who weren't black per lilbuddha's link.
That's only evidence of racism if you assume that there were equal numbers of white/black people acting suspiciously. Is that a reasonable assumption?
Shouldn't one ask what percentage of crimes detectable and preventable by public observation (not tax evasion) was committed by white, resp. black people? Maybe suspicion towards young male blacks is simply a matter of experience and common sense. And why does no one complain of sexism and ageism when almost exclusively young(ish) males are reported as suspicious?
In Frankfurt about 30-40% of burglaries are committed by gypsy children under 14. There are only a few thousand gypsies in the town with a few hundred children. So if you see a bunch of them in your residential neighbourhood you'd have to be statistically incompetent not to keep an eye open. But you'd have to brave the automatic charge of "racist profiling". Few people dare to and so burglaries increase year after year.
(But we don't have neighbourhood watches here, let alone armed ones).
Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
And why does no one complain of sexism and ageism when almost exclusively young(ish) males are reported as suspicious?
You may have a point here.
Many years ago when my husband was 17 he had very long hair (still does) he drove a brand new car. He was stopped almost weekly by the police. His name is John Smith so he got many rude comments too and was hauled out of the car by police convinced they had a wrong 'un. It gave him great pleasure to produce his driving license and insurance documents, but he rarely received an apology. This hasn't happened since he turned 20.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Sylvander,
Assuming for the moment your statistics are correct, it does not apply to Sanford, Florida. Sanford is part of greater Orlando. Orlando, which has a population of over 200,000 people, is ~28% black. What are the odds that a majority of those nearly 60,000 people are criminals?
[ 25. July 2013, 11:53: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
Shouldn't one ask what percentage of crimes detectable and preventable by public observation (not tax evasion) was committed by white, resp. black people? Maybe suspicion towards young male blacks is simply a matter of experience and common sense. And why does no one complain of sexism and ageism when almost exclusively young(ish) males are reported as suspicious?
Your point about age and gender is taken.
Regarding the rest, the problem lies in collecting and interpreting statistics.
For every one white male in U.S. prisons, there are 6 to 7 black males (supporting link provided upthread). What does this tell us?
1. There are 6-7 times as many black males in U.S. society than white ones? General population census data, if reliable and correctly interpreted, suggest otherwise.
2. Black males are 6-7 times more likely to commit crime than white males?
3. Black males are 6-7 times more likely to be convicted of crimes of which they're accused than white males?
4. Black males are 6-7 times more likely to be suspected/accused of crimes than white males?
5. U.S. society has a serious problem with racism which gets expressed at least partially through its criminal justice system?
6. Some combination of the above?
If Gypsy kids where you are get suspected first, they'll also get observed first, which means they'll get arrested more often, which will likely lead to their being convicted more often. How many unsolved crimes are there for which non-Gypsy kids might be responsible?
For obvious reasons, we can't collect data about the perpetrators of unsolved crimes. Until all groups of similar ages/sexes get suspected and observed equally, how can we collect reliable data about the races/ethnicity of perpetrators?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Even were it proven black males were 6-7 times more likely to commit crimes, my point was anyone in Sanford was statistically more likely to encounter law-abiding Black folk than criminal Black folk.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
As already noted at least twice previously on this thread, SYG formed part of the judge's instructions to the jury.
SYG was not cited by the defense.
The prosecution said it wasn't a SYG case and it appears the jury didn't think it was, either. Either way, it seems to me no one should have to take a beating and it appears the jury agreed.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Regarding the rest, the problem lies in collecting and interpreting statistics.
For every one white male in U.S. prisons, there are 6 to 7 black males (supporting link provided upthread). What does this tell us?
1. There are 6-7 times as many black males in U.S. society than white ones? General population census data, if reliable and correctly interpreted, suggest otherwise.
2. Black males are 6-7 times more likely to commit crime than white males?
3. Black males are 6-7 times more likely to be convicted of crimes of which they're accused than white males?
Many black men in prison have been convicted of crimes of violence against other black people. I am not sure the black community would be better off if these men were walking the streets.
I still want to know whether the police responded to Zimmermann's calls about suspicious black males. I also want to know what they found. If, in fact, they found that crimes were being committed or had been committed, then Zimmermann's calls were justified.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Many black men in prison have been convicted of crimes of violence against other black people. I am not sure the black community would be better off if these men were walking the streets.
First, I have drawn no distinction among the specific crimes or crime victims for which a racial minority of the population has been incarcerated for a staggering majority of all crimes committed. Actual perpetrators of black-on-black violence are no less guilty than actual perpetrators of white-on-white or white-on-black or black-on-white violence. I am not advocating against the conviction or for the release of individuals of any race who have been legitimately accused, fairly tried, and correctly found guilty.
The question I’m raising concerns the legitimacy of the conviction rate. Conviction is not always a reliable indication of guilt. I refer you to the The Innocence Project, which has helped to exonerate 310 individuals since 2000. Of these 310, 193 were black.
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I still want to know whether the police responded to Zimmermann's calls about suspicious black males. I also want to know what they found. If, in fact, they found that crimes were being committed or had been committed, then Zimmermann's calls were justified.
It's a legitimate question, and I suspect we'd all like to have some answers. I'm not holding my breath.
[ 25. July 2013, 13:28: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
Shouldn't one ask what percentage of crimes detectable and preventable by public observation (not tax evasion) was committed by white, resp. black people?
As noted above, the percentage would have to be 94% or higher to get Zimmerman's 46-0 call record without selection bias. It would have to be about 98.5% to get a 50/50 chance of getting that 46-0 record by pure chance. Are you willing to posit that there is virtually no other racial or ethnic group committing any observable crimes in Sanford, FL?
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Many black men in prison have been convicted of crimes of violence against other black people.
But most black men in U.S. prisons have been convicted of non-violent drug offenses, the same as every other racial or ethnic group in U.S. prisons. Given that virtually every study ever made of the subject shows nearly identical use rates for illegal drugs between black and white Americans, systematic selection bias has to be considered as at least a possible explanation for their much higher imprisonment rate.
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I still want to know whether the police responded to Zimmermann's calls about suspicious black males. I also want to know what they found. If, in fact, they found that crimes were being committed or had been committed, then Zimmermann's calls were justified.
Yes, if only you had access to some kind of world wide network of information, you might be able to answer that question! Perhaps something with the ability to search and filter that information.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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