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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Belief in Jesus. Easy, innit
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
The translators of the LXX translated the Hebrew MSS that they had to hand. A scroll of Isaiah, in Hebrew, was found at Qumran which matched the LXX and not the MT. There were multiple versions, apparently, of many OT books floating around at the time; one version was chosen as the ancestor (so to speak) of the Masoretic tradition; the other (the one used to make the LXX) died away in the Jewish community.
It's really not difficult to discover these things. Making claims such as that the translators of the LXX "inserted" stuff not found in their originals is wildly irresponsible until one has actually done the research to understand what went on in the translating of the LXX.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
oh for goodness sake. quick search throws up this:
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/comparisons.html
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
And for the umpteenth time what do "Comparisons between the Bible and the Septuagint", as that page is entitled, have to do with the argument that modern scholars are fiddling with their translations?
Especially as the latest translation given on that page is the KJV, dating from the 17th century, and known to be less accurate than modern translations simply because it translated using the best documents available then, and we have access to earlier and better sources. The 17th C is hardly "modern" so does nothing to back up your arguement that modern translations are being fiddled.
Peronel
[I note in passing that that page dates the Old Testament of the King James Version to 1000 AD. Which is, umm, interesting.]
ETA: Heh? Inbetween his post and mine, looks like MrMister deleted his.
[ 05. February 2006, 16:32: Message edited by: Peronel ]
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
Check this out.
quote:
Versions Differ (Part One of a Five-Part Series)--Within the last 4 months the editor of BE has been told by 3 professional defenders of the Bible that there is nothing in the Christian faith that depends on any disputed passage in Scripture, nothing whatsoever. Unfortunately for biblicists there is abundant evidence to the contrary. A wide variety of differences among translations, often caused by the manuscripts from which they are derived, are readily available and, generally speaking, can be grouped into 3 broad categories: (1) Differences with respect to how a verse or part of a verse should be translated (Conflicting Translations--CT), (2) Differences on whether or not verses contradict one another (Contradictory Verses--CV), and (3) Differences on whether or not verses or part of a verse should be omitted entirely (Omitted Text--OT).
Link: http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/bepart35.html
[Most of quoted text deleted for copyright reasons.]
[ 05. February 2006, 17:01: Message edited by: RuthW ]
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
Posts: 417 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
quote:
If Jesus' sacrifice does not require from us reaction or change beyond acceptance of truth of the event - what is the point ?
The point is that you're saved from destruction on Judgement Day by a God who loves you enough to welcome you into Heavenly bliss despite the evil you've done in life that resulted in the death of his only son.
It is not about you being good - you don't stand a chance like that. It's too late. There is a bigger spiritual game afoot. God has stepped in to allow you the chance, should you wish it, of his eternal love. You are of course free to reject it, but rejecting God is not something without consequence.
This is what I believe.
The point of Christianity is that this life is not the point: the gift of life after the resurrection, which we don't deserve given how awful we all are, is where it's at.
Hmm, that is a lot more than 'I believe in Jesus Christ'.
You could found a church on that creed. I wouldn't join it because I disagree with anumber of the implicit assumptions in your post(s).
I think you demonstrate upon this thread the exact reasons for dogma and demonationalism.
You post what you believe and ask us, implicitly, why we (and other Christians) disagree. Then you put forward arguemnts to justify your initially simple statement of belief - creating your own personal dogma. You tell others that they are wrong, implying they should share your beliefs, which is the begining of outreach / evangelism.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
Deleted what? I've not deleted anything.
My apologies. Your post - which I quoted in my last - initially appeared after Mousethief's. For reasons I don't understand, it's jumped to the bottom of the previous page. Seeing it gone, I assumed you'd deleted it.
Peronel.
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
quote:
Hmm, that is a lot more than 'I believe in Jesus Christ'.
No, it isn't.
I don't ask that others believe it, nor do I say it is essential to believe it. I happen to believe it, but I am not God.
I would not "found a church" nor is that a "creed" - there are no creeds as I see it, creeds being worth less than the paper they are printed on.
You are free to disagree.
I do not create personal dogma; I merely note that Christians seek to force their dogma on others.
You asked me what the point is. I told you.
To then attack me for believing in a point is disingenuous at best, spiteful at worst; at no point is it a kind thing to do.
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
Posts: 417 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
Check this out.
Talk about something totally unreadable! Some nice touches like paragraphs wouldn't be too much to ask would it? Not to mention the question of copyright on that illegible text.
No one here asked you to post someone elses work. In your own words, just give us one passage which illustrates the "howlers" you claim. Chapter and verse would be enough, we're more than capable of reading umpteen translations ourselves of that.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
Then go and read.
You're not my supervisor so stop acting like one.
There is ample material for you to be getting on with there.
Now go do the legwork yourself. It's only laziness that's stopping you; asking me to synthesise material myself is a good deal more than providing evidence. I've just given you a taster there. Go read.
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
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Fauja
Lesser known misfit
# 2054
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
I expect nothing of others' morality, nor do I judge myself; nor do I claim to be good, nor do I deny the gift of imputed holiness, nor do I deserve it.
That's fair enough. However, salvation is something that is worked out and not just received. We are given a clean sheet but it's up to us to write something (metaphorically speaking) on it that is consistent with who Our Father in Heaven is. Take these words for example:
Faith without deeds is dead
Some might over-complicate the issues but let's be willing to consider the whole counsel of God and not just the bits we like or like to argue about.
Just to be clear mrmister, I'm not accusing you of anything but I get the feeling from reading your posts that you have difficulty with people who don't respond the way you hoped they would.
Posts: 829 | From: uk | Registered: Dec 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
quote:
Hmm, that is a lot more than 'I believe in Jesus Christ'.
No, it isn't.
I don't ask that others believe it, nor do I say it is essential to believe it. I happen to believe it, but I am not God.
I would not "found a church" nor is that a "creed" - there are no creeds as I see it, creeds being worth less than the paper they are printed on.
You are free to disagree.
I do not create personal dogma; I merely note that Christians seek to force their dogma on others.
You asked me what the point is. I told you.
To then attack me for believing in a point is disingenuous at best, spiteful at worst; at no point is it a kind thing to do.
It was an analogy, not an attack. I do not dispute your right to believe what ever you like. I was harking back to the OP and trying to illustrate why I think demominations proliferate. I do not take the terms, 'creed', 'dogma' or 'evangelism' to be insults and was not intending they be interpreted in that way.
N.B. As in: Dogma (the plural is either dogmata or dogmas) is belief or doctrine held by a religion or any kind of organization to be authoritative and not to be disputed or doubted
&
A creed is a statement of belief—usually religious belief—or faith.The word derives from the Latin credo for I believe.
(Definitions from wikipedia)
Please chill out - this is only a discussion.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
quote:
Hmm, that is a lot more than 'I believe in Jesus Christ'.
No, it isn't.
So, "believe in Jesus" includes
- belief in Judgement Day (however you define that)
- salvation from destruction on that Day
- our evil resulted in the death of Gods Son
- the point of faith being life after resurrection
Just to list a few points from your statement of belief.
None of which seems to be intrinsic to belief if Jesus.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God"
A number of manuscripts don't say "the Son of God".
Indeed they don't. Although 'Son of God' is incontrovertibly a good Marcan christological title, the centurion's declaration at the cross and all that, so once we stop straining at textual gnats and read the gospel as, you know, a book written by an author with a theology, then there is quite a pressing case for the authenticity of 'the Son of God' here. In any case its hardly important for the sense of the gospel or for belief is it?
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insert amusing sig. here
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
Thing is, mrmister, that page you've linked to doesn't actually even attempt to argue that Bible texts are being deliberately fiddled with. So it really doesn't help.
Plus I can't see anything in that near-illegible screed that I'd call a howler.
Plus its inaccurate. One example, picked at random:
quote:
2 TIM. 3:16 ("All scripture is given by inspiration of God"--KJ, RS, ML, LB, JB, NI, BBE, NAB, TEV, NWT, NAS)
In point of fact, the NIV says:
quote:
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
And the NAB says:
quote:
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
If a page that is drawing attention to minor differences can't even quote accurately, then why should I take it seriously?
Peronel.
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
quote:
However, salvation is something that is worked out and not just received. We are given a clean sheet but it's up to us to write something (metaphorically speaking) on it that is consistent with who Our Father in Heaven is.
I don't believe that is the case, nor do I believe that it is my position to judge what is consistent with what God would wish and what is not.
"Faith without works is dead" was the heart of a right old ding-dong between James and Paul, who fundamentally disagreed about the nature of salvation. It is only a fundamentalistic mindset that feels these two fundamentally opposed views must tortuously be harmonised.
And what harmony does it result in? "You are not saved by what you do, but by your faith - but only if your faith is strong enough!" Yes, that's right - you can believe in Jesus and be a lovely person, but you'll never be sure that you're not hellbound because you weren't told how strong was strong enough faith! That's even worse than legalism, because at least you can see if you've broken Torah most of the time; how can you see the inside of a man's heart? There are plenty of kind people that don't believe in Jesus. Are you asking people to be perfect? That's back to square one; a life-long drudgery of fear, begging at the cross and pleading the blood and God knows what else. No thanks, that's emotional torture, not love. That's not the Jesus I know.
I am human, just forgiven.
This "worked out" nonsense is the root of so much strife among Christian communities. It is just not necessary to sabre-rattle among people that basically just want to get on with life, telling them that unless they're "writing the right thing ont their clean sheet" then they're not saved, or that they'll be disgraced in Heaven, or not be as blessed as some bugger that's going on about God all the time, or choosing masochistically to suffer rather than just getting on with life.
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
Posts: 417 | Registered: Dec 2005
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
quote:
So, "believe in Jesus" includes
* belief in Judgement Day (however you define that)
* salvation from destruction on that Day
* our evil resulted in the death of Gods Son
* the point of faith being life after resurrection
No.
Belief in Jesus is belief in Jesus.
I don't believe that belief in any of those doctrines is necessary for salvation: faith, trust, these things are emotions, a relationship state.
I don't believe in a checklist-entry to Heaven.
Just because I believe in those things, that doesn't mean I consider them essentials for salvation. Don't confuse the issue please.
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
Posts: 417 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
You're not my supervisor so stop acting like one.
No, I'm not your supervisor. Though if I were I'd certainly be strongly suggesting you provide some supporting evidence for your thesis. Unsupported assertions have no weight in academic work, and just make you look silly here. And, asking someone else to do your work isn't helpful either. If I was examining a student thesis where the work was done by someone else then why should I pass it?
quote:
Now go do the legwork yourself.
I'm not the one who needs to support your assertion. If you do some work I'll happily discuss that with you. If all you want to do is make unsupported assertions then fuck off for all I care.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Belief as in belief in his existence as a historical person or something more than that ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Hosting
mrmister, I have deleted most of the text you quoted above because the quotation was too long. Long quotations have the potential to be copyright violations, so they should be avoided.
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
Then go and read.
You're not my supervisor so stop acting like one.
There is ample material for you to be getting on with there.
Now go do the legwork yourself. It's only laziness that's stopping you; asking me to synthesise material myself is a good deal more than providing evidence. I've just given you a taster there. Go read.
Avoid personal comments and stick to the issues at hand. This post violates the Ship's third commandment.
RuthW
Purgatory host
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Belief as in belief in his existence as a historical person or something more than that ?
Which is back where I was on page one
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I believe that for that phrase "believing in Jesus saves" to have any meaning then we need to know at least three things:
- Who is Jesus?
- What is salvation?
- What does it mean to believe?
Which has yet to be addressed.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
Alan, where is the evidence to support the assertion that a dead Jewish carpenter is God almighty, rose from the dead etc etc?
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
Posts: 417 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
What sort of evidence are you looking for?
There isn't much to be said that won't be disputed by somebody somewhere. What sort of evidence would you deem acceptable?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
Alan, where is the evidence to support the assertion that a dead Jewish carpenter is God almighty, rose from the dead etc etc?
So believing in the historical existence of a dead jewish carpenter is not enough then ?
Is it enough/too much if you believe that Jesus was a prophet sent by God and so was Mohammed ?
[ 05. February 2006, 17:18: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
Alan, where is the evidence to support the assertion that a dead Jewish carpenter is God almighty, rose from the dead etc etc?
The existance of the Church based on the belief that Jesus is the Christ, the Second Person of the Triune God, who died in our place and rose from the dead. That seems like substantial evidence. Not proof, of course, but evidence none the less.
And, the Christian Scriptures are a big part of the witness of that same Church to the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
Alan, in "The Testimony of Dr Alan Cresswell" you state, just after saying how moved you were that the people at your church read the Bible a lot and hence they were special, that:
quote:
I had come to appreciate that, although founded on ultimately unprovable axioms such as the actual existance of God, on the basis of these axioms the Christian faith was intellectually consistant and provided, at least in the broadest terms, a sensible description of the world I lived in and explained many details of that world.
But there are many other intellectually consistent, sensible descriptions of the world.
Including atheism.
At best, you're just talking about a belief - just like everybody else.
Innit?
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
You're saying you believe that the Jewish carpenter is God Almighty because the church has been around for a long while and because they have a holy book?
How does that rule out Judaism or Islam, or Hinduism, or any other ancient faith, exactly?
[ 05. February 2006, 17:24: Message edited by: mrmister ]
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
Posts: 417 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
So are you saying that you believe that there's a conspiracy to fiddle with the bible in order to spread an agenda, and thus there are howlers between different versions, and that we should accept that as a faith position?
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
there are many other intellectually consistent, sensible descriptions of the world.
Including atheism.
At best, you're just talking about a belief - just like everybody else.
Yes, so what? I accept that I believe in the Christ revealed in Christian tradition and Scriptures. I've never seen any reason to deny that. It's a faith position that can never be proved, nor disproved, and I have respect for those who hold other faith positions that are equally unprovable.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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croshtique
Shipmate
# 4721
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
You're saying you believe that the Jewish carpenter is God Almighty because the church has been around for a long while and because they have a holy book?
How does that rule out Judaism or Islam, or Hinduism, or any other ancient faith, exactly?
Some would say it doesn't. But I don't think that was the question.
[ 05. February 2006, 17:29: Message edited by: croshtique ]
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"When man has finished he is just beginning, and when he stops he is still perplexed" - Sirach 18:7
Posts: 165 | From: Sarf Lahndon | Registered: Jul 2003
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
quote:
At best, you're just talking about a belief - just like everybody else.
Yes, so what?
Thank you Dr. Alan Cresswell for your confirmation that what you are talking about in your Testimony is not an evidentially provable assertion but is no more than a belief.
Just like everybody else's.
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
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Fauja
Lesser known misfit
# 2054
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
I am human, just forgiven.
And this is the root problem of your theology. You imply that any doctrine that includes the necessity of repentance is too much to accept. Sure, without God, perfection is impossible but faith in Jesus leads to true repentance if it is real faith at all.
Posts: 829 | From: uk | Registered: Dec 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Back to the OP...
quote:
originally posted by mistermister:
If Christianity is true, then belief in Jesus is all that is required - which is a heart thing and to be subject neither to inquisitions nor to personal guilt or suspicions; it does not require being moral, nor does it require seeing actions as sinful since sin has been atoned for.
To quote Matt Redman, "when the music fades, and all is stripped away", I think this is pretty much where I stand, actually.
quote:
originally posted by mistermister:
Why must adherents of any religion dogmatically assert their beliefs in order to hold them?
I don't think my beliefs require me to assert them, dogmatically or otherwise, but I don't find it surprising that I, you, or anyone else actually do assert them. That's what we seem to be doing here, anyway.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fauja:
You imply that any doctrine that includes the necessity of repentance is too much to accept. Sure, without God, perfection is impossible but faith in Jesus leads to true repentance if it is real faith at all.
I think it all depends what you read into "require" in the part of the OP I have just quoted. There's a distinction to be made between A requiring B and A leading to B.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
Fauja:
quote:
And this is the root problem of your theology. You imply that any doctrine that includes the necessity of repentance is too much to accept. Sure, without God, perfection is impossible but faith in Jesus leads to true repentance if it is real faith at all.
Do I detect the scent of burning heretic?
Who are you to discern what is or is not true repentance? That isn't your position. That is for God to judge, not you; nor is it for you to place the seed of self-doubt in a believer's mind, particularly when already penitent!
Eutychus:
quote:
I don't think my beliefs require me to assert them, dogmatically or otherwise, but I don't find it surprising that I, you, or anyone else actually do assert them. That's what we seem to be doing here, anyway.
Yes, I agree. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
Posts: 417 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Fauja
Lesser known misfit
# 2054
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
Who are you to discern what is or is not true repentance? That isn't your position. That is for God to judge, not you; nor is it for you to place the seed of self-doubt in a believer's mind, particularly when already penitent!
Who am I? I am a child of God who understands that repentance is necessary, that's who I am. If you are having doubts about yourself then maybe you should quietly seek God in prayer.
Posts: 829 | From: uk | Registered: Dec 2001
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
Thank you Dr. Alan Cresswell for your confirmation that what you are talking about in your Testimony is not an evidentially provable assertion but is no more than a belief.
Just like everybody else's.
Thing is, what you've been asserting is an evidentially provable assertion.
Or at least one where evidence can be produced and debated over.
Unless you really are argueing that your position that different modern bible translations have been fiddled with and contain major howlers when you compare one with another is just a faith position.
That's certainly how its coming over!
Peronel
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
quote:
Who am I? I am a child of God who understands that repentance is necessary, that's who I am. If you are having doubts about yourself then maybe you should quietly seek God in prayer.
Ah, I see.
Because I disagree with what you believe, that must mean that I'm doubting myself! Because otherwise, what you write might be untrue. But we've already established that it is true, so...
And because I don't agree with what you believe, that must mean that I don't seek God, because if I did seek God, I'd agree with you, because God's opened your eyes to all this special wisdom which only the Children of God have. We know you're a special Child of God, because you believe you are, so you must be.
And since, because you believe you're a Child of God, which means it must be true, that means that what you think is what God wants, because you believe it, which means it must be true.
So when you say I should seek God in prayer, I should listen, because you're a Child of God, and what you say must be true, because you believe it is.
Well! What a tremendous witness, brother
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
Posts: 417 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
Do I detect the scent of burning heretic?
Oh for goodness' sake! You have posted on a discussion board. You should expect people to discuss with you. This might well involve people disagreeing with you.
I also find it a bit tiresome that you find it acceptable to post endless bold assertions and wild speculations, yet respond to people who find themselves unconvinced by your argument in a deeply passive-aggressive fashion - 'This is just my belief, I'm not trying to force it on you, how dare you insult it'. A neat way to avoid criticism, but hardly the stuff of debate.
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insert amusing sig. here
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Fauja
Lesser known misfit
# 2054
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
And since, because you believe you're a Child of God, which means it must be true, that means that what you think is what God wants, because you believe it, which means it must be true.
So when you say I should seek God in prayer, I should listen, because you're a Child of God, and what you say must be true, because you believe it is.
Well! What a tremendous witness, brother
Next you'll be saying that your attitude is proof that you are penitent and believe in the necessity of repentance.
Hey, if you can't take it, don't give it.
Posts: 829 | From: uk | Registered: Dec 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
quote:
At best, you're just talking about a belief - just like everybody else.
Yes, so what?
Thank you Dr. Alan Cresswell for your confirmation that what you are talking about in your Testimony is not an evidentially provable assertion but is no more than a belief.
Just like everybody else's.
Not just like everyone else's. Just like any other internally self-consistent belief structure built upon unprovable axioms. I'd make a distinction against belief structures that are inconsistent, built upon assertions that have been disproved or for which evidence should be available but not provided.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
Since you've not provided any evidence other than an old church and a holy book, it's no different from any other belief system with equivalents, Alan.
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I could expand on my beliefs considerably, but what's the point? This isn't a thread discussing what I believe, but your assertions in the opening post and added to since then.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
Dr. Alan Cresswell's Testimony isn't any different in status from anybody else's, as I see it.
It's all belief.
You believe Jesus is God, do you? Good, so do I.
But it's not some lofty intellectualism that's behind it, mate; it's belief. Simple as
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
As I see it, Dr. Alan Cresswell's Testimony certainly has a different status then yours, which seems to be (as DOD put it), deeply passive/aggressive. quote:
But it's not some lofty intellectualism that's behind it, mate; it's belief. Simple as
So, is this the conclusion that all these perambulations have led to? I believe that you may eventually discover "faith" is not confined to any particular human system but is limited descriptive term for a basic attribute (or emanation) of God.
Your arguments seem like pounding rocks while wondering whether the hammer is real.
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--Formerly: Gort--
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
mrmister
Please bear with me -I've only just come across your thread and I'd like to comment/ask questions on the first 30 sheets. Then I'll try to catch up onthe rest later. I hope that's OK.
Quote: "Christianity largely sets out its stall on the basis that if you belive in Jesus, you will go to Heaven when you die."
If that is true, then Christianity says you will go to Heaven when you die - since you believe in Jesus. Is that right? Is Christianity right about that? If so, what on arth are you so angry about?
Is there anything you want to share about the Jesus you believe in?
Thanks for reminding me about Thomas Paine. I've now reserved "The Age of Reason" in my local library.
Quote: "When you're on the outside, they tell you Believe and be saved! When you're on the inside, they tell you unless you mesure up you're for it..."
Where are you now - on the outside or the inside? Ignore this question if it's intrusive.
With regard to opium (for hoi polloi) I was once also a licenced dispenser. I found that preaching orthodoxically (though I NEVER preached
orthodoxy!) to be a very useful dicipline. There's plenty of good, useful, truthful, healing stuff that can be said without ruffling the Curia's feathers.
But when I had to, so to speak, bawl prophetically, I found my congregations wonderfully amenable. After a sermon condemning homophobia, for instance, I was quietly congratulated by the one person I expectd to demand my resignation. People are often nicer than you think.
Eventually, though, I wanted to point out publicly that, for instance, the Magnificat was a hymn of praise originslly ascribed to Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, not Mary the mother of Jesus. If you read the Old Testament stuff that inspired it, this becomes self-evident.
I discovered other anomalies, which the faithful are frightened of, and found these boards a useful place to discuss them.
Maybe your over-reaction (as I see it)to what's
troublesome about the church will be useful.
But I feel that some of your polemic is not just an academic concern. You're a tad touchy, sometimes. Please don't send this thread to Hell - it's far too interesting.
Of couse the Bible has bee fiddled with. And a good job too. It needs a lot more fidling with.
The New Testament began life as a community's propaganda (Hence The United Society For The PROPAGATION of the Gospel) All propaganda needs to be subjected to the most careful scrutiny possible. Just calling it bollocks isn't doing that. Anyone not prepared to engage in the hard work of testing it is not entitled to comment on it.
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Originally posted by mrmister;
I personally doubt that your life-change can be so profound as to make you perfect.
I agree, but why should God require us to be perfect? He put us here and knows what we're capable of. You say you're saved because you "believe in Jesus" but several people have asked you to explain what that means. Believe what? That he was born of a virgin and walked on water? That he is God incarnate? That he died for your sins? And you think a mere belief in these theological issues saves?
I have to say that I profoundly disagree. I see salvation more in terms of Micah 6.8 than in any set of theological proposals. "Religion" should be life changing. If you love God you will not want to offend Him. That doesn't mean that you won't sometime because we are human and fallible and God knows that. But we need to humbly acknowledge when we let Him, others and ourselves down through selfish thoughts and actions and rededicate ourselves to doing His will.
You can keep your "belief in" as a means of salvation. It is totally vacuous and a cop out where facing up to our evil selfish impulses is concerned.
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curious Buddhist:
[QB]the misuse of comma's
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
You might want to double check your UBB code before attempting that kind of cheap shot again.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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