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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: "Spiritual Growth”
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
I will get back to the Duo link after this sub-discussion on the examen has run its course, if you don't mind.
quote:
Originally posted by humblebum:
Well if you believe that the using the examen is analogous to doing drugs, then clearly you think it's bad, so you should say so.
No, as I'm not really sure that doing drugs is a bad thing. It's a risky thing, and insofar as it's illegal it's bad. But I enjoy a Cooper's Ale as much as the next man. However let's be clear that it's an analogy. The point underlying has to do with whether you ought to try out a practice that purports to be spiritual in nature because someone else says that they found it useful.
My comment on the examen is that it looks a great deal like introspection (despite AP's insistence that it isn't, which I still don't really get). As far as I can tell, introspection is neither a good nor bad thing, it just is. Whether it is spiritually useful is rather hard to assess. God may choose to use my introspection to lead me to repentance and greater faith, so who am I to condemn it? But whether that process is fundamental to my spiritual growth or even likely to be helpful, I don't know how you could be confident.
quote:
Do you know of people whose lives have ended up in the gutter (spiritually speaking) through use of the examen?
As I've not asked such specific questions of people, I don't know the answer to this. I will say that I have met people for whom I consider that the use of the questions Adam linked would almost certainly, as far as I can judge these things, continue to push them in their downward spiral of inward-lookingness and depression. For people of such temperaments I would counsel against all but the most limited sorts of introspection (a whole 'nother topic, which I feel I shouldn't pursue at this time).
But what do you make of a point I raised earlier, which is that as far as I can see we are not in Scripture told to examine ourselves, but rather exhorted and encouraged to allow God to reveal our true nature to ourselves? "Search me, O Lord."
This is not to suggest that introspection or self-examination is wrong or sinful, but rather that it is somewhat tangential to true spirituality and a knowledge of ourselves.
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humblebum
Shipmate
# 4358
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Posted
I'm starting to get the impression that this discussion of the examen won't get us very far, and probably requires a separate thread anyway.
Basically, I think you're speaking from a position of ignorance on this subject. The examen is a practice with a long history within Christian tradition, and so people can point to it and say "this is something which lots of people have found very helpful". If its not something you're particularly familiar with, and you have concerns, then you need to be seeing if its history has a darker side which we're not paying attention to. Saying that "it sounds a bit like [x], and I know that [x] is a bad idea" doesn't really cut it, I'm afraid.
I guess there is an argument to be made that someone with depressive tendencies could come along and say "hmm, that sounds interesting - must go and do some spiritual navel gazing and see where that gets me"; but what I think is more likely is that if someone is interested, they'll find out more about it from a sensibly-minded teacher.
My own experience of the examen has also been beneficial. A group from my (reasonably evangelical) church is doing a course in faith accompaniment run by the Ignatian Spirituality Centre in Glasgow, and we've spent some time with the examen. The first thing I would want to say about it is that it's misleading to call it 'introspective' - the basic question to be considered is "what is God doing in my life? Where is his Holy Spirit moving in my daily life?" On that basis it's about my interactions with others as much as it is about navel gazing - in fact, I find that posing this question does take me out of whatever self-absorbed patterns of thinking that I'm going in.
The other thing I would want to say about it is that the psalmist's prayer of "Search me O God, and know my heart" is an implicit part of what is going on. The idea is that as you review what's been going on in your life, you ask God to reveal his perspective to you, so that you are doing the review together. This is so that you don't just spend the time reinforcing your own views of how well or how badly life is going.
As I was saying tho, I'm starting to think discussing this further is going to be unproductive....
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by humblebum:
Basically, I think you're speaking from a position of ignorance on this subject. The examen is a practice with a long history within Christian tradition, and so people can point to it and say "this is something which lots of people have found very helpful". If its not something you're particularly familiar with, and you have concerns, then you need to be seeing if its history has a darker side which we're not paying attention to.
I am assuming that we are talking about the same examen, here, that is the examen provided within the context of the Spiritual Exercises of the Roman Catholic Ignatius of Loyola. If we are talking about the same thing then a key to understanding what is going on is to return to the primary document to find out what Ignatius himself said, rather than attempting to begin with the argument "I find this helpful". What exactly is being found helpful? Only a reading of the original document, or a reliable translation of it, is going to be of use here.
So it is interesting to see you making the claim of the examen that
quote:
by humblebum:
The first thing I would want to say about it is that it's misleading to call it 'introspective' - the basic question to be considered is "what is God doing in my life? Where is his Holy Spirit moving in my daily life?"
This is not how Ignatius speaks of it. Indeed in the First Annotation on his Spiritual Exercises, he says rather:
quote:
originally posted by Ignatius of Loyola:
First Annotation.
The first Annotation is that by this name of Spiritual Exercises is meant every way of examining one's conscience, of meditating, of contemplating, of praying vocally and mentally, and of performing other spiritual actions, as will be said later. For as strolling, walking and running are bodily exercises, so every way of preparing and disposing the soul to rid itself of all the disordered tendencies, and, after it is rid, to seek and find the Divine Will as to the management of one's life for the salvation of the soul, is called a Spiritual Exercise.
ie, the exercises are described here are not at all seen as a way of discovering God's activity in my life (although this may form some aspect of the process at a later stage, on Ignatius' view of natural theology and the role of reason). Rather this accords with how I myself am preparing my soul to seek salvation, by ridding my soul of "disordered tendencies".
Now this reading of what Ignatius is advocating is confirmed when he says:
quote:
originally posted by Ignatius of Loyola:
PRINCIPLE AND FOUNDATION
Man is created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord, and by this means to save his soul.
And the other things on the face of the earth are created for man and that they may help him in prosecuting the end for which he is created.
From this it follows that man is to use them as much as they help him on to his end, and ought to rid himself of them so far as they hinder him as to it.
For this it is necessary to make ourselves indifferent to all created thing... [etc]
note that the heading "PRINCIPLE AND FOUNDATION" is Ignatius' own, and helps us understand just how important these words are for understanding the subsequent exercises he describes.
Now it may be that at a later stage Ignatius will come to address the question of, as you say, "what is God doing in my life?" But this is certainly not where he begins, and we don't get on to anything like this until we have worked through the intial process of — and I can't see why you resile from this word — introspection, which is intended to identify and remove the disordered tendencies at work within my soul.
In keeping with the semi-Pelagian style of Roman Catholic thinking, you will notice that the emphasis in this foundational point is nearly entirely on the work that the person undergoing the Spiritual Exercises is to do for themselves.
quote:
humblebum:
The other thing I would want to say about it is that the psalmist's prayer of "Search me O God, and know my heart" is an implicit part of what is going on.
Really? This rather assumes what needs to be proved. As I read Ignatius, the focus of what he himself says is what we do and what we achieve by this process, with the help of the one guding us through the examine. On Ignatius' view God is involved, but in practice he appears to be more of a distant assistant than the superintendent of the process.
(FWIW I am referring to this translation of Ignatius, which appears to have the imprimatur of the Vatican)
[ 17. December 2005, 19:10: Message edited by: Gordon Cheng ]
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
In the early eighties, I found Richard Foster's Celebration of Discipline: The Path to Spiritual Growth life-changing. As I recall, even Christianity Today seemed to think it was quite worthwhile. One of the "disciplines" that Foster discusses is Silence.
I think he categorised it as an "inner" rather than a "corporate" discipline, although my experience has been that other people appear to benefit at least as much, if not more than, myself.
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Put not your trust in princes.
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
What's the benefit of it, Adam?
I really couldn't tell you. That is rather the point. If you find that the Almighty and Beloved doesn't help you in the same way as other people, then by all means go do your own thing. Or not.
quote:
Also, I would be interested in your comments on the bits of Ignatius I quoted, given your previous suggestion that the examen is not about introspection.
I think Ignatius is interesting, and I should read more of him. He's an important source, but I'd be careful of taking him as authoritative for contemporary spiritual practice, if only because the language and the world is different. I don't see all the negative things that you do and, since you've already demonstrated how easy it is to misunderstand, for example, the Canons of the Council of Trent if you read them looking for ammunition, to be honest I don't trust your reading of medieval texts. I am open to see what you can do with contemporary English when you respond to Duo's quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
"Introspection" is generally defined as "contemplation of one's own thoughts, feelings, and sensations; self-examination", and as such the examen certainly involves introspection. However, in your posts you seemed to be using the word with a more specific referent, for something that was wholly self-absorbed, and so a negative thing. It was that negative sense which I don't believe applies to the examen.
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Put not your trust in princes.
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AdamPater:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
What's the benefit of it, Adam?
I really couldn't tell you. That is rather the point. If you find that the Almighty and Beloved doesn't help you in the same way as other people, then by all means go do your own thing. Or not.
I do find that surprising. As far as I can tell we're back to "Buy this black box. It may do you good. It may do you harm. I couldn't even tell you what good it would do, if any."
quote:
"Introspection" is generally defined as "contemplation of one's own thoughts, feelings, and sensations; self-examination", and as such the examen certainly involves introspection.
Thank you for this answer, this is what I meant by introspection, so I'm glad that we've clarified that.
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
As far as I can tell we're back to "Buy this black box. It may do you good. It may do you harm. I couldn't even tell you what good it would do, if any."
For Christ's sake, Gordon, can you get it throught that knotted mallee root you use for a skull that nobody is selling you a thing?
Speaking only for myself, I didn't read Ignatius to find out what "examen" meant. I read some other book, or heard some talk, or chatted to a friend about a type of prayerful thoughtfulness, or thoughtful prayer, whatever, which I learned along the way was called by many an "examen" or "examination of conscience". I went out and bought a book on a friends recommendation, and gave you the reference way back. It seems to be a good thing for me. If you don't like it, fine, but I profit nothing from recommending it to you and I resent your repeated implication that everyone is out to con you, in some way to bring about Bad Things™ in your life.
Look, here is a simple example of the thing in practise: when Paters Minor and Major are heading for bed, we might pause before their prayers to talk quietly about their day. What happened for you today? Was their something that you feel really good about? Is their something else that leaves you feeling sad or bad? That's interesting, honey, what can we say to God about them? Do you think God has shown you something, or taught you something today? My day was a bit like this .... and I thank God for that and the other, but this other thing bothered me, so I might mention that to God too.
There... loaded with self-examination, introspection even. Whoops: must be bad! I must be turning my kids into suicidal depressives. Maybe I should be reading them the Institutes instead.
<snip> goes a longer, more relevant example of the way examen works for me. Gordon, banging on trying to communicate with you is bad for my soul. I've said that before, expressing myself inappropriately and for which I apologised, but the basic fact remains: this "discussion" long ago stopped being anything other than exercise in bad grace for me, and it only continues because I keep coming back to pick the sore. My own examen tells me to stop it. Your approach to spirituality seems to me to be functionally psychotic, and my own grip on Grace is shakey enough that I don't like to risk being sucked into the fantasy world.
[ 18. December 2005, 05:16: Message edited by: AdamPater ]
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Put not your trust in princes.
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Gordon,
Are we not told to 'work out our salvation in fear and trembling'. Is it not possible that this 'working out' involves self-examination? Paul seemed to be quite keen on a bit of self-examination prior to eating from the Lord's table. The NT scripture never encourage us to abdicate our responsibility to know Christ and I do maintain that it is possible to examine one's realationship with him without slipping into unproductive introspection.
2mb
[ 18. December 2005, 05:23: Message edited by: m.t_tomb ]
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Gordon, banging on trying to communicate with you is bad for my soul. I've said that before, expressing myself inappropriately and for which I apologised, but the basic fact remains: this "discussion" long ago stopped being anything other than exercise in bad grace for me, and it only continues because I keep coming back to pick the sore. My own examen tells me to stop it. Your approach to spirituality seems to me to be functionally psychotic, and my own grip on Grace is shakey enough that I don't like to risk being sucked into the fantasy world.
Leave it be Adam. Our Lord said something about pearls and swine; there's only so much you can do before you hurt yourself. Go in peace.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by m.t_tomb:
Gordon,
Are we not told to 'work out our salvation in fear and trembling'. Is it not possible that this 'working out' involves self-examination? Paul seemed to be quite keen on a bit of self-examination prior to eating from the Lord's table. The NT scripture never encourage us to abdicate our responsibility to know Christ and I do maintain that it is possible to examine one's realationship with him without slipping into unproductive introspection.
G'day m.t_tomb, what an excellent question. Especially as it sympathetically responds to some of the concerns I was raising, in that you haven't automatically assumed that I'm opposed to introspection—which as I keep saying, is neither good nor bad, it just is.
I think on the particular question you raised as to whether this would be a part of "working out our salvation with fear and trembling" (an allusion to Phil 2:12, I assume?) that the answer would have to be 'maybe'. The key to what Paul is saying we should do here is to hold fast against the temptation to cave in to hostile opposition to gospel preaching (see the earlier verses, Phil 1:27-30 which are a real eye-opener in understanding the situation that Paul's readers are facing).
So apart from continuing to believe, I imagine the exhortation to "work out your salvation" is aimed at getting the Philippians to keep preaching the gospel in really dire circumstances. To which I say, what a great idea.
Could it also be applied to introspection, in the sense of looking to yourself to see if you were standing firm and really committed to gospel preaching? Yes, I think that might be one application, and quite a useful one too. If so, it would be a million miles away from all this tosh about 'spiritual disciplines' that some of the contributors to this thread seem to be so keen to promote. I can't see that Paul was encouraging the Philippians (or the Corinthians for that matter) that they ought to be saying their Hail Marys and flagellating themselves with formalized examens under the instruction of an Ignatian spiritual director.
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
originally posted by Ignatius of Loyola:
PRINCIPLE AND FOUNDATION
Man is created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord, and by this means to save his soul.
And the other things on the face of the earth are created for man and that they may help him in prosecuting the end for which he is created.
From this it follows that man is to use them as much as they help him on to his end, and ought to rid himself of them so far as they hinder him as to it.
For this it is necessary to make ourselves indifferent to all created thing... [etc]
note that the heading "PRINCIPLE AND FOUNDATION" is Ignatius' own, and helps us understand just how important these words are for understanding the subsequent exercises he describes.
Now it may be that at a later stage Ignatius will come to address the question of, as you say, "what is God doing in my life?" But this is certainly not where he begins, and we don't get on to anything like this until we have worked through the intial process of — and I can't see why you resile from this word — introspection, which is intended to identify and remove the disordered tendencies at work within my soul.
But the whole point is to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord. Of course God is involved in the process. Maybe this has not been spelled out as explicitly as you might like, but it is there.
quote:
In keeping with the semi-Pelagian style of Roman Catholic thinking, you will notice that the emphasis in this foundational point is nearly entirely on the work that the person undergoing the Spiritual Exercises is to do for themselves.
As m.t_tomb has pointed out this is linked to working out our salvation. It is hard to express both the fact that it is God who saves us and also that we have to respond to that. You seem to me to put so much emphasis on God's work that there's no point us doing anything.
quote:
As I read Ignatius, the focus of what he himself says is what we do and what we achieve by this process, with the help of the one guding us through the [examen]. On Ignatius' view God is involved, but in practice he appears to be more of a distant assistant than the superintendent of the process.
I think that is to misunderstand Ignatius. It is only with God's help that we can do these things.
You object to introspection for reasons I have not yet understood, but here you also seem to be objecting to the idea of having a guide who can help us put things into perspective. Self-awareness strikes me as important, but I agree that if I just look at myself, then my flaws and issues get in the way; so if I suffer from low self-esteem, I am more likely to focus on the negative aspects of me and my behaviour. A spiritual guide can be helpful in aiding me to get beyond that and see the more positive parts. This is soemthing which comes ultimately from God. We are his hands on earth!
Carys
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
But the whole point is to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord. Of course God is involved in the process. Maybe this has not been spelled out as explicitly as you might like, but it is there.
Does the phrase you quoted prove your point? I would say that despite the high falutin' language, God has been demoted from the ultimate subject to the ultimate object. This is bad.
If I was a suspicious soul, I would detect a whiff of Aristotle's Unmoved Mover mediated via Aquinas. As it is, let's leave that alone ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
You seem to me to put so much emphasis on God's work that there's no point us doing anything.
If this were so it would be major problem for my view. But I do believe we ought to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. This is never in question. The question is, what does this look like? I have suggested that in Philippians, it means getting on with preaching the gospel, even though your very life is under threat. Do you agree?
More broadly, I would want to say that it is satisfied by obedience to the new commandment, to "Love your neighbour." IMHO this is as far from the practice of spiritual discipline as the east is from the west.
quote:
You object to introspection for reasons I have not yet understood
I don't. Really I don't. Introspection is as natural as breathing. Some of my best friends are introspective. I just don't call it a spiritual discipline, and I want to make the relatively non-contentious observation (I would have thought) that there are some situations where it would be wise to steer clear of it. I certainly wouldn't want to make it a virtue or turn it into a part of a spiritual exercise.
A broader and slightly tangential question here: Has anyone yet mentioned in this 10 page uber-thread any spiritual discipline, so-called, which doesn't involve as part or whole of it a fairly intense focus on the self? I can't think of one off the top of my head. It seems quite the opposite of New testament religion, which is summed up by the command "Love your neighbour". A religion which draws us away from the fulfilment of this command would seem rather disastrous!
quote:
A spiritual guide can be helpful in aiding me to get beyond that and see the more positive parts. This is soemthing which comes ultimately from God. We are his hands on earth!
I am suspicious of the terminology, as always. But I love the idea of friendship and encouragement to be like Christ. Is there more to being a spiritual guide than this? I hope not.
[ 20. December 2005, 09:26: Message edited by: Gordon Cheng ]
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
I'll come back to the post in which this appears at greater length... but this quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
In keeping with the semi-Pelagian style of Roman Catholic thinking, you will notice that the emphasis in this foundational point is nearly entirely on the work that the person undergoing the Spiritual Exercises is to do for themselves.
is both an unrecognisable travesty of Catholic theology and a basic misunderstanding of the point St Ignatius is making.
I don't think you know what the semi-Pelagian heresy was. Two clues: it was condemned by the Church at the Ecumenical Council of Orange in 529 and so forms no part of the Magisterium. Grace comes from God and no other.
[ 20. December 2005, 09:49: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
As always, Duo, I don't mind being enlightened by people who know better, which in my case is most of them. But it's traditional to give actual reasons for why you think something has been misrepresented, rather than just saying that it has been.
I am aware of the council of Orange, I just thnk that later Roman Catholicism has fallen into the trap that they tried to avoid. Augustine may have been part of the problem, but let's not go there on this thread.
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
But the whole point is to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord. Of course God is involved in the process. Maybe this has not been spelled out as explicitly as you might like, but it is there.
Does the phrase you quoted prove your point? I would say that despite the high falutin' language, God has been demoted from the ultimate subject to the ultimate object. This is bad.
Why?
quote:
If I w[ere] a suspicious soul, I would detect a whiff of Aristotle's Unmoved Mover mediated via Aquinas. As it is, let's leave that alone
I'm not keen on Greek philosophy at the expense of the OT tradition, but I don't see how that's relevant here.
quote:
quote:
You seem to me to put so much emphasis on God's work that there's no point us doing anything.
If this were so it would be major problem for my view. But I do believe we ought to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. This is never in question. The question is, what does this look like? I have suggested that in Philippians, it means getting on with preaching the gospel, even though your very life is under threat. Do you agree?
It's not just `what does it look like?' (loving our neighbours as ourselves) but `how do we acheive this?'
quote:
More broadly, I would want to say that it is satisfied by obedience to the new commandment, to "Love your neighbour." IMHO this is as far from the practice of spiritual discipline as the east is from the west.
I disagree. Spiritual disciplines are there to help us be obedient to that command. That is what they are pointing us towards. By reflecting on Christ, we come to know more what he would do. By examining what we have done recently, we can see where we have gone wrong.
quote:
quote:
You object to introspection for reasons I have not yet understood
I don't. Really I don't. Introspection is as natural as breathing. Some of my best friends are introspective. I just don't call it a spiritual discipline, and I want to make the relatively non-contentious observation (I would have thought) that there are some situations where it would be wise to steer clear of it. I certainly wouldn't want to make it a virtue or turn it into a part of a spiritual exercise.
But it can be part of that. It's about self-awareness.
quote:
quote:
A spiritual guide can be helpful in aiding me to get beyond that and see the more positive parts. This is soemthing which comes ultimately from God. We are his hands on earth!
I am suspicious of the terminology, as always. But I love the idea of friendship and encouragement to be like Christ. Is there more to being a spiritual guide than this? I hope not.
It's not quite the same as friendship. IMO. I take it as a one-way thing (my spiritual guide offers me advice and guidance but has someone else to do that for her). This stops me hiding my problems to help her. It doesn't have the socialising aspects of friendships either but is deeper.
Anyway, I'm about to be thrown out of the library so I'd better go.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
A broader and slightly tangential question here: Has anyone yet mentioned in this 10 page uber-thread any spiritual discipline, so-called, which doesn't involve as part or whole of it a fairly intense focus on the self? I can't think of one off the top of my head. It seems quite the opposite of New testament religion, which is summed up by the command "Love your neighbour". A religion which draws us away from the fulfilment of this command would seem rather disastrous!
On those rare occasions when someone asks me, "What's the meaning of life?", my response is usually, "Know yourself and serve others." It may not seem like it, but it's not that far from "love your neighbour."
Love your neighbour. How? Aside from sitting on my couch thinking warm thoughts about my neighbour, what does this mean? YMMV, but in my experience it means knowing both what your neighbour needs and what you have to offer. Introspection is one side of that equation, observation the other.
OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
More broadly, I would want to say that it is satisfied by obedience to the new commandment, to "Love your neighbour." IMHO this is as far from the practice of spiritual discipline as the east is from the west.
Um, whatever happened to the "first and greatest commandment" - to love *God* with all your heart and soul and mind and strength? Loving your neighbour is "merely" the second commandment: as a general summary *on its own*, it falls a long way short of the NT (or rather dominical) calling.
Paul likens being a Christian to being an Olympic runner. This suggests a very disciplined (one might say "self-displined") approach to being a Christian. Olympic runners don't get to be Olympic runners by practicing whenever they feel like it: they have to run every day. How does one "love God with all one's mind" like an Olympic runner? How does one "love God with all one's heart" like an Olympic runner? How does one "love God with all one's soul" like an Olympic runner? Etc.
My understanding of spiritual disciplines is not focussing on oneself (yes, I have seen plenty of this), but focussing on God. Like Paul says: "Whatever is true .. honest .. etc - think on these things". He doesn't want us to leave our minds up to the vicissitudes of chance, but to exercise control over our thoughts. This is spiritual discipline. To pick one example: taking time everyday, whether one feels in the mood or not, to pray through the morning and evening prayer is one (of many) ways to *turn* one's mind to God - not to let it wander to and fro all the time, which would amount to leaving it up to luck whether your mind ever finds God.
The prophetess Anna spent decades praying in the temple. She doesn't seem to be criticised for this seclusion and devotion to prayer. Rather, she was privileged to be one of the first to see the Messiah. As a persistent (disciplined) praying person, she looks like an "Olympic runner" to me - indeed a medallist ("Gold, gold, gold!" as an Aussie commentator would say).
But my images of spiritual growth and spiritual diciplines are the traditional ones of the Desert Saints (men and women who followed in the footsteps of Anna) and the Carmelites (especially the two Thereses and Brother Laurence of the Resurrection who wrote the classic "Practice of the Presence of God"). In looking at these people I hear that whisper of the Spirit: "This is the way; walk ye in it" - in so far as you can with a full time job and a spouse and two children!
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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humblebum
Shipmate
# 4358
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
humblebum:
The other thing I would want to say about it is that the psalmist's prayer of "Search me O God, and know my heart" is an implicit part of what is going on.
Really? This rather assumes what needs to be proved.
Actually, Gordon, I haven't read Ignatius, although perhaps I will at some other time. My comments on the examen are based on how they have been explained to me by the folks at the Ignatian Spirituality in Glasgow, and the literature they provide. Their presentation of the examen clearly sets out the importance of asking God to show us the areas of our lives he wants to bring to our attention, not just relying on our own natural conclusions. The way the material is presented it is clear that what we're looking for is the fruit of the spirit.
I would also like to point out that you're ignoring the part about "seeking and finding the Divine Will" in your quotation from Ignatius. What he seems to be saying here is that repentance of sin is a prequisite for being able to seek God's will for your life.
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Could it also be applied to introspection, in the sense of looking to yourself to see if you were standing firm and really committed to gospel preaching? Yes, I think that might be one application, and quite a useful one too. If so, it would be a million miles away from all this tosh about 'spiritual disciplines' that some of the contributors to this thread seem to be so keen to promote. I can't see that Paul was encouraging the Philippians (or the Corinthians for that matter) that they ought to be saying their Hail Marys and flagellating themselves with formalized examens under the instruction of an Ignatian spiritual director.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Gordon - like AdamPater, I'm despairing of this discussion producing any positive fruit, if you are so wilfully going to misrepresent what posters on this thread "are keen to promote". There is absolutely no-one posting here who is recommending "saying your Hail Marys and flagellating yourself with formalized examens" as the ideal way to practice the spiritual disciplines. If you can't see that, then we're all wasting our breath.
I won't be posting on this thread for a while after today, since I'm going to be out of the office for a couple of weeks. If I don't post again today, then I hope everyone has some good time out over Christmas, and let me wish you all every blessing for the new year.
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humblebum
Posts: 584 | From: Belfast | Registered: Apr 2003
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humblebum
Shipmate
# 4358
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Posted
And incidentally, I am entirely unconvinced that Paul is referring to gospel preaching in Phillipians 2:12 - I see no allusion to preaching anywhere in Phil 2:1-18 (except possibly by implication in verse 16).
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humblebum
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Hi Carys,
Trust the eviction from the library wasn’t too painful.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
But the whole point is to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord. Of course God is involved in the process. Maybe this has not been spelled out as explicitly as you might like, but it is there.
Does the phrase you quoted prove your point? I would say that despite the high falutin' language, God has been demoted from the ultimate subject to the ultimate object. This is bad.
Why?
This really is quite a basic question in the context of this discussion. The difference between God as subject and God as object would seem to me to be the defining distinctive between genuine Christianity and invented religion. (I hope that is not too bold a statement, but let’s stick it out there and see how it flies). It’s in Christianity alone that we encounter God, to our horrified surprise (and consequent delight) as the one who acts on us, rather than we on him. Paul puts this better than me:
quote:
Paul on the Areopagus:
The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.
I’m trying to express the same idea. Any theologising about God that reduces him in any sense to the object of our affections, desires, speculation and yes, even reverence, is false and ignorant theologising. If it’s true that he gives us life and breath; if it’s true that in him we “live and move and have our being”, then even our mumbled praise and thanksgiving have their origins in Him. We cannot do this ourselves. Every effort of mind, heart and will that is directed toward the glory and light God is inspired by him; the rest is sin and death, as Paul so eloquently explains to the religious Athenians.
quote:
by Carys:
w[ere]
My mother used to correct my grammar like this. Fair enough but.
quote:
by Carys:
Spiritual disciplines are there to help us be obedient to that command. That is what they are pointing us towards. By reflecting on Christ, we come to know more what he would do. By examining what we have done recently, we can see where we have gone wrong.
What you subsume under the heading “spiritual disciplines”, I subsume under the heading “reading the bible and praying”. The woolliness of the term ‘spiritual discipline’ is the consistent problem here. Whatever else we may disagree on, we seem to have agreed that the term means radically different things to different people. It’s as vague as saying “Drugs are good for you”. Of course they are. Which drugs, and what is your basis for saying so? But this is an analogy only. The evidence, in the case of spiritual disciplines (so-called) needs to be scriptural rather than empirical—at least from my evangelical perspective.
quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
On those rare occasions when someone asks me, "What's the meaning of life?", my response is usually, "Know yourself and serve others." It may not seem like it, but it's not that far from "love your neighbour."
Love your neighbour. How? Aside from sitting on my couch thinking warm thoughts about my neighbour, what does this mean? YMMV, but in my experience it means knowing both what your neighbour needs and what you have to offer. Introspection is one side of that equation, observation the other.
OliviaG
I tend to agree with this, and as I keep saying, I have no objection to introspection as such. To object to introspection is like objecting to the colour yellow—you can hardly complain about it, but you might feel quite queasy when you see how the artist has used it in his or her painting.
Humblebum: A joyous christmas to you too. I am reading skeptically, but not unsympathetically. I trust you see the difference.
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Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz:
Um, whatever happened to the "first and greatest commandment" - to love *God* with all your heart and soul and mind and strength? Loving your neighbour is "merely" the second commandment: as a general summary *on its own*, it falls a long way short of the NT (or rather dominical) calling.
G'day MSHB
Without being too harsh on what you've said here and in the rest of your post on the previous page, I think this artificial separation is what gives certain brands of Christianity a bad name. The Bible consistently denies the possibility of ever separating the two at any point:
quote:
originally posted by the apostle John:
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
To really get the full impact of what is being said here you need to read the whole 5 chapters of 1 John, and preferably John's gospel as well. But the main idea is clear enough. ISTM that much of what passes for 'spiritual discipline' fails this most crucial test of what love is, because it is so self-indulgently solipsistic.
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
As always, Duo, I don't mind being enlightened by people who know better, which in my case is most of them. But it's traditional to give actual reasons for why you think something has been misrepresented, rather than just saying that it has been.
I am aware of the council of Orange, I just thnk that later Roman Catholicism has fallen into the trap that they tried to avoid. Augustine may have been part of the problem, but let's not go there on this thread.
That's a bit rich given that you gave no reasons for your original "semi-Plegianism" slur.
Tell you what - why don't you start a thread explaining your reasons for this statement rather than trying to introduce another anti-Catholic tangent to this thread?
[ 21. December 2005, 23:31: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Gordon, I'm only a Biblically unschooled layman but when I consider adopting Christianity as a faith, I get the feeling total reliance on scripture would be a bit like practicing driving while staring at the car's owner manual.
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--Formerly: Gort--
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Duo: Not while this thread is running, I think. However, the role of our works in salvation (label it Semi-Pelagian or not) is very much at the forefront of any careful discussion of this present topic. So a careful examination of things like the Ignatian examen will bring all relevant issues to the surface.
However so far, when I've pushed, I keep getting told either, "well that's not what I mean by the examen" through to "I'm afraid you can't read medieval texts" or "You don't understand Ignatius". Carys is the only person so far, I think, to have engaged with the actual content of what Ignatius has said. It's a bit confusing for me. When I don't quote sources and respond directly to what people are saying, I'm accused of ignorance (an ignorance I've never sought to conceal, BTW). If I do quote sources and suggest what I think it means, I'm met with the blanket assertion that I've misrepresented what is there.
So my request for some sort of substantial proof of such misrepresentation stands. We can do it on this thread, in which case I will look at it, or we can wait till this thread dies down and see what happens when we post a new thread on semi-pelagianism and Roman Catholicism. Either option is fine.
Gort: At least in your analogy you acknowledge the existence of a reliable manual! I trust you're reading it some time
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Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Yes, but I won't be reading it when I approach a stop sign.
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--Formerly: Gort--
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
![[Frown]](frown.gif) Gordon, if after the 500 posts of this thread you are still able to refer to:
quote:
all this tosh about 'spiritual disciplines'
and believe that anyone here has enouraged people to get about quote:
saying their Hail Marys and flagellating themselves with formalized examens under the instruction of an Ignatian spiritual director
then there is far more at issue than being unable to comprehend medieval texts or understand Ignatius; what we have here is a fundamental failure to communicate. I've suggested elsewhere the kind of axiomatic differences that might be in play, but you haven't chosen to address them (and fair enough - though serious they were pretty vague remarks).
While quote:
the role of our works in salvation (label it Semi-Pelagian or not) is very much at the forefront of any careful discussion of this present topic. So a careful examination of things like the Ignatian examen will bring all relevant issues to the surface
may be true (modulo the heresy slur that can be inferred from your words), all that will be ultimately brought to light is that the Ship, if not the Church, includes people with widely varying understandings of "salvation", "works", "sanctification", "sacraments", "prayer", "discpline", "spiritual", "love" and "authority". Wow. Who would have thought? ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
There's precious little hope of there being any useful investigation of the base topic if we are unable, for the sake of the discussion, to temporarily speak or even listen to someone-else's frame of reference. Because the frames of reference aren't going to be unified this side of the eschaton. And some people, at least, do appear to get some benefit out of equably considering the experience and thoughts of another. (Some might even argue that thus is the eschaton hastened).
But you don't.
[ 22. December 2005, 03:42: Message edited by: AdamPater ]
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Put not your trust in princes.
Posts: 4894 | From: On the left of the big pink bit. | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
Yes, but I won't be reading it when I approach a stop sign.
Yeah, yeah all of that Gorto.
What I like about what you said is the acknowledgement of the existence of some objective text. You know, the sort that tells you what a stoopid idea it is to take the cap off the gas tank and piss where the petrol goes. I deal in simple categories and I love that sort of stuff. I think all this spiritual discipline stuff just goes above my head. At least, so Adsy keeps telling me.
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Gordon, there's a vast difference between reading what goes in the tank and instructing others in how to drive.
[ 22. December 2005, 07:49: Message edited by: Gort ]
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--Formerly: Gort--
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
Gordon, there's a vast difference between reading what goes in the tank and instructing others in how to drive.
Gordon only thinks in simple categories. Either you're obeying the manual, or you're not. What really matters is obeying the manual.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Gort, I acknowledge what you say. We've got to live our lives as best we can. We do it looking out one set of eyes, inhabiting the one body.
The reason I don't think the auto manual thang really works, as much as I like it, is that the God who spoke the Bible really does inhabit his word in a way that you or I (or carmakers) don't. We're liars, and even when we're not we just don't know enough to say what's right. God always says it right, and his Spirit lives in those who hear him.
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Sorry, I have to leave a little wiggle room for interpretation. I'll never be able to claim conclusively that God is speaking the truth to me through the spirit or scripture.
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--Formerly: Gort--
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
God always says it right, and his Spirit lives in those who hear him.
Does this mean, "... and his Spirit lives in those who interpret the Scriptures the same way I do"? God's saying it right is worthless unless we have a way of decoding it properly. And with all of the many interpretations, how do we determine which is right?
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I think all this spiritual discipline stuff just goes above my head. At least, so Adsy keeps telling me.
Not at all. I've always assumed you're more than capable - in fact, I've been guilty of assuming you know far more than you claim to, and have wrongly attributed your ignorance to malice.
If anything, my opinion of you seems to be too high: I can't understand why you continue with the "flagellation"-type attributions in the face of continued explanation from other people.
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Put not your trust in princes.
Posts: 4894 | From: On the left of the big pink bit. | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Adam, I don't mind if you attribute evil motives to me; it accords well with my own view of myself and what the Bible assures me is the case. But if what you say is true, you seem to be trapped within this thread like a blowie in a funnelweb's front door. Take it elsewhere mate, I don't think I'm doing you any good at all.
Mousethief, Gort, that whole interpretation thing doesn't bother my simple mind too much. Near enough is good enough for mine, and God's grace washes a lot of the nonsense out over time.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Near enough is good enough for mine, and God's grace washes a lot of the nonsense out over time.
You're very easy on yourself when you interpret scripture, but very hard on others when they attempt to find ways to obey God. Does that bother you?
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Duo: Not while this thread is running, I think. However, the role of our works in salvation (label it Semi-Pelagian or not) is very much at the forefront of any careful discussion of this present topic. So a careful examination of things like the Ignatian examen will bring all relevant issues to the surface.
This is the essence of semi-Pelagianism, as summarised by Prosper of Aquitaine and Hilarius (sic) to St Augustine:
quote:
In distinguishing between the beginning of faith (initium fidei) and the increase of faith (augmentum fidei), one may refer the former to the power of the free will, while the faith itself and its increase is absolutely dependent upon God;
the gratuity of grace is to be maintained against Pelagius in so far as every strictly natural merit is excluded; this, however, does not prevent nature and its works from having a certain claim to grace;
as regards final perseverance (ie preservation of the state of grace until the end of life) in particular, it must not be regarded as a special gift of grace, since the justified man may of his own strength persevere to the end.
By contrast here is the Catechism on justification and grace. I've picked out a couple of highlights:
quote:
Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favour, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
The authority for that being John 1:12-18; 17:3; Romans 8:14-17; 2 Peter 1:3-4.
This is a very compressed summary:
All comes from the grace of God - moved by grace we turn to God and away from sin, to a forgiveness from God, a cleansing, a sanctification, an inner renewal to share in life in Christ through the Passion and the Resurrection. We merit that justification through the Passion of Christ. We don't deserve God's grace but it is there freely for all and if we cooperate with God's freely willed grace then we grow closer to Him. Our freely willed response to grace is conversion, faith so that sustained by that grace we can say like St Paul "I have run the race to the finish. I have kept the faith." But better to read it in the original.
There is not a breath of semi-Pelagianism in any of the statements about grace, justification and faith in the Catechism.
Which is why what you said is a misrepresentation. I'll be kind and say it was one clearly borne of ignorance of what Catholics actually believe.
quote:
However so far, when I've pushed, I keep getting told either, "well that's not what I mean by the examen" through to "I'm afraid you can't read medieval texts" or "You don't understand Ignatius". Carys is the only person so far, I think, to have engaged with the actual content of what Ignatius has said. It's a bit confusing for me. When I don't quote sources and respond directly to what people are saying, I'm accused of ignorance (an ignorance I've never sought to conceal, BTW). If I do quote sources and suggest what I think it means, I'm met with the blanket assertion that I've misrepresented what is there.
There's a word to the wise in there. Have you considered that you are mistaken in your interpretation?
The section of the Catechism I linked to above also has the following to say about Christian holiness and the ultimate aim of all spiritual progress. "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" Matthew 3:48
quote:
2014 Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called "mystical" because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments - "the holy mysteries" - and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.
That is completely consistent with what St Ignatius says here:
quote:
PRINCIPLE AND FOUNDATION
Man is created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord, and by this means to save his soul.
And the other things on the face of the earth are created for man and that they may help him in prosecuting the end for which he is created.
From this it follows that man is to use them as much as they help him on to his end, and ought to rid himself of them so far as they hinder him as to it.
For this it is necessary to make ourselves indifferent to all created things in all that is allowed to the choice of our free will and is not prohibited to it; so that, on our part, we want not health rather than sickness, riches rather than poverty, honor rather than dishonor, long rather than short life, and so in all the rest; desiring and choosing only what is most conducive for us to the end for which we are created.
I've restored the bit you lopped off for it emphasises that we must let nothing get in the way of our real purpose, of our love of God and our faith as our response to God's grace.
The method for making the General Examen contains "what is God doing in my life?" as point 3 of the process. Having done that we need to ask God's forgiveness and apply the lessons learned to improve by the aid the God's grace.
quote:
METHOD FOR MAKING THE GENERAL EXAMEN
It contains in it five Points.
First Point. The first Point is to give thanks to God our Lord for the benefits received.
Second Point. The second, to ask grace to know our sins and cast them out.
Third Point. The third, to ask account of our soul from the hour that we rose up to the present Examen, hour by hour, or period by period: and first as to thoughts, and then as to words, and then as to acts, in the same order as was mentioned in the Particular Examen.
Fourth Point. The fourth, to ask pardon of God our Lord for the faults.
Fifth Point. The fifth, to purpose amendment with His grace.
In other words the whole point of the examen is God-centered, so that we make spiritual progress to an ever closer intimacy with God. God is no distant superintendant of this but an active participant.
quote:
So my request for some sort of substantial proof of such misrepresentation stands. We can do it on this thread, in which case I will look at it, or we can wait till this thread dies down and see what happens when we post a new thread on semi-pelagianism and Roman Catholicism. Either option is fine.
I maintain that it remains your misrepresentation, your slur and one for which you have no basis. You also don't get the point of St Ignatius and complaining about how misunderstood you are is not persuasive. But you are welcome to try. Tell me how the whole structure of Catholic belief on faith grace and salvation is actually semi-Pelagianism in disguise, despite the best efforts of St Augustine, the Council of Orange and the Council of Trent and so on.
You may, however, have to come to grips with what Catholics actually believe as opposed to what you think they believe.
One of these days you might also like to come to grips with what I said earlier about meditative and contemplative prayer. But I'm not getting my hopes up.
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Near enough is good enough for mine, and God's grace washes a lot of the nonsense out over time.
You're very easy on yourself when you interpret scripture, but very hard on others when they attempt to find ways to obey God. Does that bother you?
There are some hard edges to what I believe, yes; I think there are issues of heaven and hell hanging in the balance so there are certain things I will argue for to the best of my ability. I think given what I believe I wold be culpable if I were to do otherwise.
Duo, thanks for the post and I'll do my best to come to terms with what you're saying. You know from this thread that my opinions are firm, but I respect your knowledge of the RC faith and gladly acknowledge the holes in mine. So I will read what you post; the things that you say require a fair bit of thought from me, and I want to do justice to them rather than dismiss with silly one-liners (and yes I know that I possess a fair fund of them).
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
So you're happy with a multiplicity of opinions when there's nothing you can do to win the argument, but will still fight for your opinion because so much is in the balance, regardless of the fact that you have nowhere to stand that isn't sinking sand.
Admirable, if dumb.
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
Especially if it's a matter of life and death (so called).
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Put not your trust in princes.
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
What I can't wrap my mind around is the hypocrisy of claiming to follow the bible, yet blanket-denouncing of things encouraged by the bible itself (ie spiritual disciplines, meditation, prayer, etc).
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
Why are you doing this terrible thing then, GC?
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
If you can find one instance of where I've spoken against prayer or bible reading, or said that spiritual disciplines are wrong (as opposed to ill-defined), then your question would actually make sense, Joyfulsoul. As it is, it seems to suggest that you haven't been able to follow the argument. I don't blame you for that, as I often find myself in the position of not being able to follow arguments. But it may mean that you need to do some re-reading.
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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care
Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
Ok. This is what I originally said:
quote:
What I can't wrap my mind around is the hypocrisy of claiming to follow the bible, yet blanket-denouncing of things encouraged by the bible itself (ie spiritual disciplines, meditation, prayer, etc).
This is what you wrote in response:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
If you can find one instance of where I've spoken against prayer or bible reading, or said that spiritual disciplines are wrong (as opposed to ill-defined), then your question would actually make sense, Joyfulsoul. As it is, it seems to suggest that you haven't been able to follow the argument. I don't blame you for that, as I often find myself in the position of not being able to follow arguments. But it may mean that you need to do some re-reading.
1) I mentioned meditation.
According to dictionary.com:
med·i·tate
1.To reflect on; contemplate.
2.To plan in the mind; intend: meditated a visit to her daughter.
2)Let me refresh your memory:
quote:
Originally posted by AdamPater:
Gordon, if after the 500 posts of this thread you are still able to refer to:
quote:
all this tosh about 'spiritual disciplines'
[ 22. December 2005, 22:29: Message edited by: Joyfulsoul ]
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Joyfulsoul, you appear to be a troubled and confused soul as regards comprehending my meaning. You are quite mistaken. This isn't necessarily your fault; I am sorry to have befuddled you so. Carys has picked up what I'm saying far more accurately (although I'm not saying she agrees), perhaps you could PM her for a better explanation if she is willing.
I am taking leave from the Ship until about January 20, after which time I shall return to this thread, assuming the hosts haven't locked it down and thrown away the key.
In the meantime I wish you and everyone a joyous and holy Christmas and a blessed New Year.
G
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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care
Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
I want to go back to something a few pages ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I think on the particular question you raised as to whether this would be a part of "working out our salvation with fear and trembling" (an allusion to Phil 2:12, I assume?) that the answer would have to be 'maybe'. The key to what Paul is saying we should do here is to hold fast against the temptation to cave in to hostile opposition to gospel preaching (see the earlier verses, Phil 1:27-30 which are a real eye-opener in understanding the situation that Paul's readers are facing).
So apart from continuing to believe, I imagine the exhortation to "work out your salvation" is aimed at getting the Philippians to keep preaching the gospel in really dire circumstances. To which I say, what a great idea.
Could it also be applied to introspection, in the sense of looking to yourself to see if you were standing firm and really committed to gospel preaching? Yes, I think that might be one application, and quite a useful one too. If so, it would be a million miles away from all this tosh about 'spiritual disciplines' that some of the contributors to this thread seem to be so keen to promote. I can't see that Paul was encouraging the Philippians (or the Corinthians for that matter) that they ought to be saying their Hail Marys and flagellating themselves with formalized examens under the instruction of an Ignatian spiritual director.
Gordon, I don't know much about cliche or examen. I was raised a Protestant and these days I prefer to not align myself with any specific denomination. But I see your initial point as "Some people may enjoy spiritual disciplines, but I find that avoiding them helps my spiritual life, because of x, y, z."
Later, in response to Joyfulsoul and others, you seem to say that you don't find anything wrong with spiritual disciplines, you just don't like the misinterpretations of them.
So, on the one hand you come into the discussion with an eyebrow-raising comment about avoiding spiritual disciplines, which draws people into the conversation, and ten pages later everyone's so confused and emotionally involved that they've followed you and a few others through a chase that's included flagellation and St. Ignatius (things I doubt were ever meant by the OP).
So getting back to it, are you saying it'd be good to avoid spiritual disciplines because they tend to be a distraction, or are you saying that there are some good ones and some bad ones and you should focus only on good ones? Or something entirely different?
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Joyfulsoul, you appear to be a troubled and confused soul
Rest assured Joyful soul, the problem isn't you.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Hi everybody,
Just bumping this thread to log in, v briefly, and wish youse all a Happy New Year. The girls and I are having a lovely holiday, thankyou for asking. I am still planning to return to the Ship shortly after the 20th of January.
In the meantime Shipmates may like to give thought to two questions that, to my simple mind, still remain unanswered after 10+ pages.
1. What exactly is a spiritual discipline?
2. What is the purported benefit of it?
I am happy to endorse the majority view of this thread and admit that the reason for my ignorance is, er, ignorance. No-one ever lost money by underestimating my intelligence, to paraphrase P.T. Barnum. And having made it through 30 years of Christian life without having practised any spiritual disciplines, and without being any the wiser as to what I am missing out on, the depth of my ignorance is profound.
But even a great showman like PT Barnum recognised that in order to make the sale, the American public had to believe there was something in it for them in whatever product was being touted.
So feel free to assume that what is being said so far has travelled well over my head, and answer in words of one syllable or less!
Thank you all for your patience. Duo, I have been atttempting to educate myself about the Roman Catholic rosary, and will look forward to discussing it further upon my return.
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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care
Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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