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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: "Spiritual Growth”
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
But this thread isn't about what God promised, it's about people's experiences. And you're not merely claiming that God gives what he promises, you're claiming that anyone experiencing anything beyond what he promises must perforce be deceived. Which is not biblical.
No, because I've only commented on three specific instances of experience, as they relate to spiritual discipline. (1) The cilice (2) the lectio divina and now (3) The examen linked by AP. Duo raised the rosary and I am not sure that I help matters by commenting on that.
Because God can do whatever he wants, except break his own promises, I could give no guarantee that he wouldn't provide a certain experience of himself outside of Scripture. If he does, you will know that he has. All I will be able to do is test what you say against Scripture, after which I might say "what nonsense" or "how interesting" or "golly". But if you started spruiking your experience as something that could be had and enjoyed by others, I would be more inclined to say "what nonsense"—with all due Christian humility, of course.
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
...I've only commented on three specific instances of experience, as they relate to spiritual discipline. (1) The cilice (2) the lectio divina and now (3) The examen linked by AP.
In point of actual fact, you have made no comments with respect to the examen per se. You mentioned the word, then immediately introduced "introspection" which you have pursued with gay abandon.
The cilice has only ever been repeatedly introduced by yourself. Nobody else has exhibited the slightest interest in the things (I'd never heard of them before reading the execrable Da Vinci Code).
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Put not your trust in princes.
Posts: 4894 | From: On the left of the big pink bit. | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AdamPater:
In point of actual fact, you have made no comments with respect to the examen per se. You mentioned the word, then immediately introduced "introspection" which you have pursued with gay abandon.
Humour my simple mind, Adam. How is this:
quote:
From the Examen:
In the last day/week/month…
For what am I most grateful? Least grateful?
When did I give and receive the most love? The least love?
When did I feel most alive? Most drained of life?
When did I have the greatest sense of belonging? Least sense of belonging?
When was I most free? Least free?
When was I most creative? Least creative?
When did I feel most connected? Least connected?
When did I feel most fully myself? Least myself?
When did I feel most whole? Most fragmented?
not introspection?
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
It is not introspection because all of these questions address one's interactions with the rest of the world, and are designed to encourage a consideration of how God the Holy Spirit is leading us day by day, how we may be alternately cooperating with or resisting God's work in us.
In any case, your own words were quote:
...I would say that the examen you linked to earlier is a step in the direction of introspection...(emphasis added))
Having made the warning about what the examen might lead to, do you actually have anything to say about the examen itself? No, you don't seem to. Perhaps because you've never heard of it before, and can't be arsed finding out what on earth it is.
It is much easier to say "A might lead to B. Let's talk about B" rather than sticking to the topic at hand so as to develop a discussion constructively.
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Put not your trust in princes.
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AdamPater:
It is not introspection because all of these questions address one's interactions with the rest of the world, and are designed to encourage a consideration of how God the Holy Spirit is leading us day by day, how we may be alternately cooperating with or resisting God's work in us.
Special pleading. On this minimizing definition, I don't believe anything could rightly be labelled introspection.
quote:
By AP:
In any case, your own words were quote:
...I would say that the examen you linked to earlier is a step in the direction of introspection...(emphasis added))
Having made the warning about what the examen might lead to, do you actually have anything to say about the examen itself? No, you don't seem to.
Hey, you're the one who introduced it and spoke of it as useful, on the basis of two links supplied by you. It looks a lot like introspection to me. I don't say it's bad. I don't say it's good. But if you don't think it's possible to know enough about it to critique it on the basis of the information you supplied, then that is really an admission that you haven't given enough information to work out whether your recommendation is worth the screen I'm reading it on. "Buy this used car. I say it's good. You can't say it's not, because I say it is. But don't ask me to tell you any more, you should have done your homework before you turned up to look."
I wouldn't buy a packet of porridge on the basis of that sales pitch, much less take on a new and different way of relating to the Creator of the universe.
[ 09. December 2005, 01:32: Message edited by: Gordon Cheng ]
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I wouldn't buy a packet of porridge on the basis of that sales pitch, much less take on a new and different way of relating to the Creator of the universe.
I wouldn't buy a packet of porridge based on the incomprehensible stuff in the bible either.*
I find that for my faith I need to rely on learning from a broad variety of other people's experiences, testing and weighing as best I can with the hope that God will puff a slight breath my way to help me.
Or maybe it's all irrelevant and God will find me or not as God wishes. In the meantime I can do no other than rely on seeking and testing and weighing.
[ETA: * and taken as a whole, it's all pretty incomprehensible to me if I try to understand it as The Complete Guide.]
[ 09. December 2005, 01:54: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
My post was in response to the OP, quote:
How you grow spiritually? What disciplines/practices help you connect to God/Jesus? How does one stay fresh and vibrant in faith without becoming a legalist?
Just wondering – I was hoping some fresh ideas would help me see things in a way I haven’t been able to previously.
rather than providing an exhaustive description and analysis.
Are you able to point to anything that you have written that applies directly to the OP?
ETA: That's my last - further correspondence is only suited to warmer climes. Again.
[ 09. December 2005, 01:53: Message edited by: AdamPater ]
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Put not your trust in princes.
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AdamPater:
Are you able to point to anything that you have written that applies directly to the OP?
This was my second post on thread:
quote:
My experience has been that avoiding these disciplines has helped me in my spiritual growth; I can't really comment on the experience of others.
It was relevant, and is still my view. The rest of the time has been spent answering questions to the best of my meagre ability, and upon realizing that some were further annoyed by my answers, offering to stop answering if they stopped asking. The offer stands.
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I think this thread has become what it has become, and for discussion on the OP in different directions, a reshaping of a new OP would be necessary.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
No. Clearly not within that thread's scope.
Point taken with regard to this thread though. If one wishes to discuss the OP, one should repost the OP and start a whole new thread. With the same OP. Because that would make a difference.
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Put not your trust in princes.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I can't really comment on the experience of others.
And yet 85% of this thread has been you commenting negatively on the experience of others. Odd, that.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
"I find BLANK helpful, thank you for asking."
"That's interesting, I've never found that particularly beneficial myself."
I can see how you would be overwhelmed by the theological underpinnings of those two statements.
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Put not your trust in princes.
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by AdamPater:
Are you able to point to anything that you have written that applies directly to the OP?
This was my second post on thread:
quote:
My experience has been that avoiding these disciplines has helped me in my spiritual growth; I can't really comment on the experience of others.
It was relevant, and is still my view. The rest of the time has been spent answering questions to the best of my meagre ability, and upon realizing that some were further annoyed by my answers, offering to stop answering if they stopped asking. The offer stands.
If you'd spent your time telling us what you actually do find helpful, instead of critcising - directly or indirectly - the practices of others, that would have been answering the OP.
There is a world of difference between:
"I find it really helpful to pray as I walk down the road, as people and concerns come to my mind,"
and:
"I avoid all of these so called disciplines. Oh, you want to know why? Well they are irrelevant (to me and therefore to you) / self indulgent/ un christian / boring - take your pick. And I'm not being offensive when I say any of this; I'm just answering the questions I set up."
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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humblebum
Shipmate
# 4358
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Hmm, OK, well I think that means my answer to Humblebum's question would become off limits.
quote:
- The human activity of listening to God's word (or in our case, reading God's word) is a spiritually valuable activity.
Yes.
quote:
- The human activity of thinking about what you've read or heard afterwards is an irrelevance, and not of any spiritual value.
No, no, no! Thinking about it afterwards is a divinely inspired and overseen activity, which generally appears to the one doing the thinking as a normal part of the process of reflection. I include the 'thinking' in the reading, otherwise we are no better (and probably worse) than a piece of OCR scanning software.
quote:
- The variety of human activities entailed in putting what we've heard into practice are also irrelevant, and not of any value either.
No, they are inherent in correct reading of Scripture, as James has argued in the passage you cited. In this sense, Scripture is unapproachably unique. I know of no other text in human history where the Spirit of the Author indwells and vivifies the hearer to provide regeneration, comprehension, insight, reflection, and application of truth to life. Of course, it is possible to read Scripture with dead eyes as mere print on a page—but not for the Christian.
Thankyou for your answer to my question Gordon - I must say your post was probably one of the least vociferous or contrary contributions you've made to the thread so far.
If you agree that thinking about what you've read and putting what you've read into practice are good and valuable activities, then my point still stands that there's more to applying God's word to your life than the act of reading.
You may quite rightly point out that these things follow on naturally from good reading, but they quite legitimately carry on after the act of reading has finished (for the time being) - therefore they cannot really be said to be included within the act of reading. "Implied by" yes, "included within" no.
To use a silly illustration: In order to read the Bible, it is implied and natural that I keep breathing while I read, but reading and breathing are not the same thing.
Regarding the examen:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I don't say it's bad. I don't say it's good.
But you did say that it was dangerous to recommend it. Which is the same thing as saying that it is bad, as far as most people are concerned.
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humblebum
Posts: 584 | From: Belfast | Registered: Apr 2003
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
There is a world of difference between:
"I find it really helpful to pray as I walk down the road, as people and concerns come to my mind," ...
Ooo... Ooo.. please, Sir! That's a good one. I am on a local inter-church committee which includes a woman who does exactly that: she goes for what she calls "prayer walks" around the neighbourhood in which, I gather, she prays constantly for the things she comes across (schools, shops, buses, people, whatever). To be honest, it's not at all my thing but it is clearly a big part of her schtick.
(If that's the right term - it's what she does.)
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Put not your trust in princes.
Posts: 4894 | From: On the left of the big pink bit. | Registered: Apr 2003
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humblebum
Shipmate
# 4358
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Posted
Actually, yeah it is a good one. I'm a fan of prayer walking myself, although for me it's not necessarily about praying for whatever I'm walking past. I have just found that praying while I'm out walking comes more naturally to me than praying at home - walking and talking works better for me than talking to God in an empty room.
It gives me a structure to my time, in that if my mind wanders off, then remembering where I am and how far I have left to go brings me back to praying. Somehow, it gives me the opportunity for silence to be part of my praying, as it would in human conversation, rather than just a prelude to drifting off into some activity other than prayer.
That's been my experience anyway.
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humblebum
Posts: 584 | From: Belfast | Registered: Apr 2003
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng
I've raised questions about the validity of the theological thinking underlying the claim for the claimed helpfulness of the experiences.
Why do you believe that people cannot tell whether they are helped spiritually by a certain practice? I know from experience that certain practices are good for me and others are bad.
The ones that are good for me give me a deeper understanding of God and his will for me. I am more eager to pray for my neighbors and help them in practical ways. The ones that are bad for me get me wrapped up in myself.
The practices that are good for me are not necessarily good for everyone else. The practices that are bad for me are not necessarily bad for everyone else. I am supposed to use the intellgence and discernment God gave me to decide what is right for me.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
BTW, I've started another of the threads I was considering; it is called Mysticism, Meditation and Mantras and quotes from this thread in the OP.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AdamPater:
No. Clearly not within that thread's scope.
Point taken with regard to this thread though. If one wishes to discuss the OP, one should repost the OP and start a whole new thread. With the same OP. Because that would make a difference.
Ooops I posted my last without having read page 10! Indeed the examen would be outside the scope of that thread, although the rosary is within it (though a discussion of the legitimacy of the Ave is for All Things Mary) as that is about meditating on Christ's life.
I agree about re-starting the OP. I note that this thread was begun in All Saints but kicked to Purg before the discussion turned to the legitimacy of the disciplines. I am not sure Purg was the best place for the OP, so I'm going to continue my thread starting tendencies and ask in The Styx why this thread was moved when and where it was and whether the OP would stand a better chance in somewhere other than Purg -- does it fit Eccles? Or is that more public worship than private prayer?
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
It seems to me that the original thread-move was justified, but that the thread's real value is All-Saints-Wise, because the useful bits are about support.
The purgatorial bits have been rai-roaded, IMHO
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Put not your trust in princes.
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AdamPater:
It seems to me that the original thread-move was justified, but that the thread's real value is All-Saints-Wise, because the useful bits are about support.
The purgatorial bits have been rai-roaded, IMHO
Had the original thread move come after it had gone in that direction I'd agree that it was justified but it proceeded it. But this belongs in the thread I started in the Styx.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
but it proceeded it.
Or even preceded it!
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by humblebum:
Thankyou for your answer to my question Gordon - I must say your post was probably one of the least vociferous or contrary contributions you've made to the thread so far.
I aim to please. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
If you agree that thinking about what you've read and putting what you've read into practice are good and valuable activities, then my point still stands that there's more to applying God's word to your life than the act of reading.
Sure, there's faith expressing itself in love. I think we're trying to work out where spiritual disciplines, so called, fit with that.
quote:
by humblebum:
Regarding the examen:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I don't say it's bad. I don't say it's good.
But you did say that it was dangerous to recommend it. Which is the same thing as saying that it is bad, as far as most people are concerned.
Well yeah. Helpful friend: "Here, take this pill, it really helped me relax while I was studying."
[15 years pass. You are lying in a gutter. Thinks: What was tomorrow's exam on again?]
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Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng
I've raised questions about the validity of the theological thinking underlying the claim for the claimed helpfulness of the experiences.
Why do you believe that people cannot tell whether they are helped spiritually by a certain practice? I know from experience that certain practices are good for me and others are bad.
We do the best we can. It's only natural to trust experience, and in one sense how could you blame someone for doing just that? But once we work out that our experiences are not uniformly trustworthy, we have to have something other than experience to guide us out of the maze, or we are a little bit stuck.
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I don't find the bible to be uniformly trustworthy either. It's most certainly not readable and understandable as is by the average person in the street. (Unless one wishes to accept the 9000 differing interpretations as all valid and OK, which I guess could be a position to take.) And to interpret it you need some kind of experience or education or principles from outside it.
[ 11. December 2005, 13:43: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Peter would agree with you, Autenreith Road, except that he is somewhat unflattering to us about where the lack of trustworthiness lies:
quote:
originally posted by the apostle Peter (2 Peter 3:16-17):
And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
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Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
<side tangent> I think Pete was a tiny bit jealous that Paul knew how to sling words about in fancy ways. So he added that warning - like:I know I'm a simple bloke, but that Paul fella - boy he can be soo confusing sometimes - and his words can be twisted (not like mine of course, cause I'm a simple bloke). </side tangent>
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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humblebum
Shipmate
# 4358
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
If you agree that thinking about what you've read and putting what you've read into practice are good and valuable activities, then my point still stands that there's more to applying God's word to your life than the act of reading.
Sure, there's faith expressing itself in love. I think we're trying to work out where spiritual disciplines, so called, fit with that.
Actually, the specific activity I was focusing on the usefulness of was "thinking and reflecting about what you've read" a.k.a "meditation on God's word", as described in the passage of the RC Catechism Duo posted a page or two ago - contra your strange insistence that "reading" was the be-all and end-all of the matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
by humblebum:
Regarding the examen:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I don't say it's bad. I don't say it's good.
But you did say that it was dangerous to recommend it. Which is the same thing as saying that it is bad, as far as most people are concerned.
Well yeah. Helpful friend: "Here, take this pill, it really helped me relax while I was studying."
[15 years pass. You are lying in a gutter. Thinks: What was tomorrow's exam on again?]
Well if you believe that the using the examen is analogous to doing drugs, then clearly you think it's bad, so you should say so.
Do you know of people whose lives have ended up in the gutter (spiritually speaking) through use of the examen?
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humblebum
Posts: 584 | From: Belfast | Registered: Apr 2003
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
In this regard, Gordon has for once admitted he doesn't actually know anything at all about the object of his critique.
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
... on the basis of two links supplied by you. It looks a lot like introspection to me. I don't say it's bad. I don't say it's good.
But the word "examen" never once appears in Scripture, so it is clearly evil and detrimental to the welfare of one's soul. On that basis, I repent of ever having mentioned it.
I also repent of the Ship. And of daily bible reading. And Quiet Times. And listening to my kids tell me about their day at bed-time, and encouraging them to talk to God about it.
Thank Gordon I'm free of all these Dangerous Things™.
[I also repent of typing quickly.]
[ 12. December 2005, 10:03: Message edited by: AdamPater ]
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Put not your trust in princes.
Posts: 4894 | From: On the left of the big pink bit. | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
I will get back to the Duo link after this sub-discussion on the examen has run its course, if you don't mind.
quote:
Originally posted by humblebum:
Well if you believe that the using the examen is analogous to doing drugs, then clearly you think it's bad, so you should say so.
No, as I'm not really sure that doing drugs is a bad thing. It's a risky thing, and insofar as it's illegal it's bad. But I enjoy a Cooper's Ale as much as the next man. However let's be clear that it's an analogy. The point underlying has to do with whether you ought to try out a practice that purports to be spiritual in nature because someone else says that they found it useful.
My comment on the examen is that it looks a great deal like introspection (despite AP's insistence that it isn't, which I still don't really get). As far as I can tell, introspection is neither a good nor bad thing, it just is. Whether it is spiritually useful is rather hard to assess. God may choose to use my introspection to lead me to repentance and greater faith, so who am I to condemn it? But whether that process is fundamental to my spiritual growth or even likely to be helpful, I don't know how you could be confident.
quote:
Do you know of people whose lives have ended up in the gutter (spiritually speaking) through use of the examen?
As I've not asked such specific questions of people, I don't know the answer to this. I will say that I have met people for whom I consider that the use of the questions Adam linked would almost certainly, as far as I can judge these things, continue to push them in their downward spiral of inward-lookingness and depression. For people of such temperaments I would counsel against all but the most limited sorts of introspection (a whole 'nother topic, which I feel I shouldn't pursue at this time).
But what do you make of a point I raised earlier, which is that as far as I can see we are not in Scripture told to examine ourselves, but rather exhorted and encouraged to allow God to reveal our true nature to ourselves? "Search me, O Lord."
This is not to suggest that introspection or self-examination is wrong or sinful, but rather that it is somewhat tangential to true spirituality and a knowledge of ourselves.
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Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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humblebum
Shipmate
# 4358
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Posted
I'm starting to get the impression that this discussion of the examen won't get us very far, and probably requires a separate thread anyway.
Basically, I think you're speaking from a position of ignorance on this subject. The examen is a practice with a long history within Christian tradition, and so people can point to it and say "this is something which lots of people have found very helpful". If its not something you're particularly familiar with, and you have concerns, then you need to be seeing if its history has a darker side which we're not paying attention to. Saying that "it sounds a bit like [x], and I know that [x] is a bad idea" doesn't really cut it, I'm afraid.
I guess there is an argument to be made that someone with depressive tendencies could come along and say "hmm, that sounds interesting - must go and do some spiritual navel gazing and see where that gets me"; but what I think is more likely is that if someone is interested, they'll find out more about it from a sensibly-minded teacher.
My own experience of the examen has also been beneficial. A group from my (reasonably evangelical) church is doing a course in faith accompaniment run by the Ignatian Spirituality Centre in Glasgow, and we've spent some time with the examen. The first thing I would want to say about it is that it's misleading to call it 'introspective' - the basic question to be considered is "what is God doing in my life? Where is his Holy Spirit moving in my daily life?" On that basis it's about my interactions with others as much as it is about navel gazing - in fact, I find that posing this question does take me out of whatever self-absorbed patterns of thinking that I'm going in.
The other thing I would want to say about it is that the psalmist's prayer of "Search me O God, and know my heart" is an implicit part of what is going on. The idea is that as you review what's been going on in your life, you ask God to reveal his perspective to you, so that you are doing the review together. This is so that you don't just spend the time reinforcing your own views of how well or how badly life is going.
As I was saying tho, I'm starting to think discussing this further is going to be unproductive....
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by humblebum:
Basically, I think you're speaking from a position of ignorance on this subject. The examen is a practice with a long history within Christian tradition, and so people can point to it and say "this is something which lots of people have found very helpful". If its not something you're particularly familiar with, and you have concerns, then you need to be seeing if its history has a darker side which we're not paying attention to.
I am assuming that we are talking about the same examen, here, that is the examen provided within the context of the Spiritual Exercises of the Roman Catholic Ignatius of Loyola. If we are talking about the same thing then a key to understanding what is going on is to return to the primary document to find out what Ignatius himself said, rather than attempting to begin with the argument "I find this helpful". What exactly is being found helpful? Only a reading of the original document, or a reliable translation of it, is going to be of use here.
So it is interesting to see you making the claim of the examen that
quote:
by humblebum:
The first thing I would want to say about it is that it's misleading to call it 'introspective' - the basic question to be considered is "what is God doing in my life? Where is his Holy Spirit moving in my daily life?"
This is not how Ignatius speaks of it. Indeed in the First Annotation on his Spiritual Exercises, he says rather:
quote:
originally posted by Ignatius of Loyola:
First Annotation.
The first Annotation is that by this name of Spiritual Exercises is meant every way of examining one's conscience, of meditating, of contemplating, of praying vocally and mentally, and of performing other spiritual actions, as will be said later. For as strolling, walking and running are bodily exercises, so every way of preparing and disposing the soul to rid itself of all the disordered tendencies, and, after it is rid, to seek and find the Divine Will as to the management of one's life for the salvation of the soul, is called a Spiritual Exercise.
ie, the exercises are described here are not at all seen as a way of discovering God's activity in my life (although this may form some aspect of the process at a later stage, on Ignatius' view of natural theology and the role of reason). Rather this accords with how I myself am preparing my soul to seek salvation, by ridding my soul of "disordered tendencies".
Now this reading of what Ignatius is advocating is confirmed when he says:
quote:
originally posted by Ignatius of Loyola:
PRINCIPLE AND FOUNDATION
Man is created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord, and by this means to save his soul.
And the other things on the face of the earth are created for man and that they may help him in prosecuting the end for which he is created.
From this it follows that man is to use them as much as they help him on to his end, and ought to rid himself of them so far as they hinder him as to it.
For this it is necessary to make ourselves indifferent to all created thing... [etc]
note that the heading "PRINCIPLE AND FOUNDATION" is Ignatius' own, and helps us understand just how important these words are for understanding the subsequent exercises he describes.
Now it may be that at a later stage Ignatius will come to address the question of, as you say, "what is God doing in my life?" But this is certainly not where he begins, and we don't get on to anything like this until we have worked through the intial process of — and I can't see why you resile from this word — introspection, which is intended to identify and remove the disordered tendencies at work within my soul.
In keeping with the semi-Pelagian style of Roman Catholic thinking, you will notice that the emphasis in this foundational point is nearly entirely on the work that the person undergoing the Spiritual Exercises is to do for themselves.
quote:
humblebum:
The other thing I would want to say about it is that the psalmist's prayer of "Search me O God, and know my heart" is an implicit part of what is going on.
Really? This rather assumes what needs to be proved. As I read Ignatius, the focus of what he himself says is what we do and what we achieve by this process, with the help of the one guding us through the examine. On Ignatius' view God is involved, but in practice he appears to be more of a distant assistant than the superintendent of the process.
(FWIW I am referring to this translation of Ignatius, which appears to have the imprimatur of the Vatican)
[ 17. December 2005, 19:10: Message edited by: Gordon Cheng ]
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
In the early eighties, I found Richard Foster's Celebration of Discipline: The Path to Spiritual Growth life-changing. As I recall, even Christianity Today seemed to think it was quite worthwhile. One of the "disciplines" that Foster discusses is Silence.
I think he categorised it as an "inner" rather than a "corporate" discipline, although my experience has been that other people appear to benefit at least as much, if not more than, myself.
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Put not your trust in princes.
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
What's the benefit of it, Adam?
I really couldn't tell you. That is rather the point. If you find that the Almighty and Beloved doesn't help you in the same way as other people, then by all means go do your own thing. Or not.
quote:
Also, I would be interested in your comments on the bits of Ignatius I quoted, given your previous suggestion that the examen is not about introspection.
I think Ignatius is interesting, and I should read more of him. He's an important source, but I'd be careful of taking him as authoritative for contemporary spiritual practice, if only because the language and the world is different. I don't see all the negative things that you do and, since you've already demonstrated how easy it is to misunderstand, for example, the Canons of the Council of Trent if you read them looking for ammunition, to be honest I don't trust your reading of medieval texts. I am open to see what you can do with contemporary English when you respond to Duo's quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
"Introspection" is generally defined as "contemplation of one's own thoughts, feelings, and sensations; self-examination", and as such the examen certainly involves introspection. However, in your posts you seemed to be using the word with a more specific referent, for something that was wholly self-absorbed, and so a negative thing. It was that negative sense which I don't believe applies to the examen.
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Put not your trust in princes.
Posts: 4894 | From: On the left of the big pink bit. | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AdamPater:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
What's the benefit of it, Adam?
I really couldn't tell you. That is rather the point. If you find that the Almighty and Beloved doesn't help you in the same way as other people, then by all means go do your own thing. Or not.
I do find that surprising. As far as I can tell we're back to "Buy this black box. It may do you good. It may do you harm. I couldn't even tell you what good it would do, if any."
quote:
"Introspection" is generally defined as "contemplation of one's own thoughts, feelings, and sensations; self-examination", and as such the examen certainly involves introspection.
Thank you for this answer, this is what I meant by introspection, so I'm glad that we've clarified that.
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Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
As far as I can tell we're back to "Buy this black box. It may do you good. It may do you harm. I couldn't even tell you what good it would do, if any."
For Christ's sake, Gordon, can you get it throught that knotted mallee root you use for a skull that nobody is selling you a thing?
Speaking only for myself, I didn't read Ignatius to find out what "examen" meant. I read some other book, or heard some talk, or chatted to a friend about a type of prayerful thoughtfulness, or thoughtful prayer, whatever, which I learned along the way was called by many an "examen" or "examination of conscience". I went out and bought a book on a friends recommendation, and gave you the reference way back. It seems to be a good thing for me. If you don't like it, fine, but I profit nothing from recommending it to you and I resent your repeated implication that everyone is out to con you, in some way to bring about Bad Things™ in your life.
Look, here is a simple example of the thing in practise: when Paters Minor and Major are heading for bed, we might pause before their prayers to talk quietly about their day. What happened for you today? Was their something that you feel really good about? Is their something else that leaves you feeling sad or bad? That's interesting, honey, what can we say to God about them? Do you think God has shown you something, or taught you something today? My day was a bit like this .... and I thank God for that and the other, but this other thing bothered me, so I might mention that to God too.
There... loaded with self-examination, introspection even. Whoops: must be bad! I must be turning my kids into suicidal depressives. Maybe I should be reading them the Institutes instead.
<snip> goes a longer, more relevant example of the way examen works for me. Gordon, banging on trying to communicate with you is bad for my soul. I've said that before, expressing myself inappropriately and for which I apologised, but the basic fact remains: this "discussion" long ago stopped being anything other than exercise in bad grace for me, and it only continues because I keep coming back to pick the sore. My own examen tells me to stop it. Your approach to spirituality seems to me to be functionally psychotic, and my own grip on Grace is shakey enough that I don't like to risk being sucked into the fantasy world.
[ 18. December 2005, 05:16: Message edited by: AdamPater ]
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Put not your trust in princes.
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Gordon,
Are we not told to 'work out our salvation in fear and trembling'. Is it not possible that this 'working out' involves self-examination? Paul seemed to be quite keen on a bit of self-examination prior to eating from the Lord's table. The NT scripture never encourage us to abdicate our responsibility to know Christ and I do maintain that it is possible to examine one's realationship with him without slipping into unproductive introspection.
2mb
[ 18. December 2005, 05:23: Message edited by: m.t_tomb ]
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Gordon, banging on trying to communicate with you is bad for my soul. I've said that before, expressing myself inappropriately and for which I apologised, but the basic fact remains: this "discussion" long ago stopped being anything other than exercise in bad grace for me, and it only continues because I keep coming back to pick the sore. My own examen tells me to stop it. Your approach to spirituality seems to me to be functionally psychotic, and my own grip on Grace is shakey enough that I don't like to risk being sucked into the fantasy world.
Leave it be Adam. Our Lord said something about pearls and swine; there's only so much you can do before you hurt yourself. Go in peace.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by m.t_tomb:
Gordon,
Are we not told to 'work out our salvation in fear and trembling'. Is it not possible that this 'working out' involves self-examination? Paul seemed to be quite keen on a bit of self-examination prior to eating from the Lord's table. The NT scripture never encourage us to abdicate our responsibility to know Christ and I do maintain that it is possible to examine one's realationship with him without slipping into unproductive introspection.
G'day m.t_tomb, what an excellent question. Especially as it sympathetically responds to some of the concerns I was raising, in that you haven't automatically assumed that I'm opposed to introspection—which as I keep saying, is neither good nor bad, it just is.
I think on the particular question you raised as to whether this would be a part of "working out our salvation with fear and trembling" (an allusion to Phil 2:12, I assume?) that the answer would have to be 'maybe'. The key to what Paul is saying we should do here is to hold fast against the temptation to cave in to hostile opposition to gospel preaching (see the earlier verses, Phil 1:27-30 which are a real eye-opener in understanding the situation that Paul's readers are facing).
So apart from continuing to believe, I imagine the exhortation to "work out your salvation" is aimed at getting the Philippians to keep preaching the gospel in really dire circumstances. To which I say, what a great idea.
Could it also be applied to introspection, in the sense of looking to yourself to see if you were standing firm and really committed to gospel preaching? Yes, I think that might be one application, and quite a useful one too. If so, it would be a million miles away from all this tosh about 'spiritual disciplines' that some of the contributors to this thread seem to be so keen to promote. I can't see that Paul was encouraging the Philippians (or the Corinthians for that matter) that they ought to be saying their Hail Marys and flagellating themselves with formalized examens under the instruction of an Ignatian spiritual director.
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Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
originally posted by Ignatius of Loyola:
PRINCIPLE AND FOUNDATION
Man is created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord, and by this means to save his soul.
And the other things on the face of the earth are created for man and that they may help him in prosecuting the end for which he is created.
From this it follows that man is to use them as much as they help him on to his end, and ought to rid himself of them so far as they hinder him as to it.
For this it is necessary to make ourselves indifferent to all created thing... [etc]
note that the heading "PRINCIPLE AND FOUNDATION" is Ignatius' own, and helps us understand just how important these words are for understanding the subsequent exercises he describes.
Now it may be that at a later stage Ignatius will come to address the question of, as you say, "what is God doing in my life?" But this is certainly not where he begins, and we don't get on to anything like this until we have worked through the intial process of — and I can't see why you resile from this word — introspection, which is intended to identify and remove the disordered tendencies at work within my soul.
But the whole point is to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord. Of course God is involved in the process. Maybe this has not been spelled out as explicitly as you might like, but it is there.
quote:
In keeping with the semi-Pelagian style of Roman Catholic thinking, you will notice that the emphasis in this foundational point is nearly entirely on the work that the person undergoing the Spiritual Exercises is to do for themselves.
As m.t_tomb has pointed out this is linked to working out our salvation. It is hard to express both the fact that it is God who saves us and also that we have to respond to that. You seem to me to put so much emphasis on God's work that there's no point us doing anything.
quote:
As I read Ignatius, the focus of what he himself says is what we do and what we achieve by this process, with the help of the one guding us through the [examen]. On Ignatius' view God is involved, but in practice he appears to be more of a distant assistant than the superintendent of the process.
I think that is to misunderstand Ignatius. It is only with God's help that we can do these things.
You object to introspection for reasons I have not yet understood, but here you also seem to be objecting to the idea of having a guide who can help us put things into perspective. Self-awareness strikes me as important, but I agree that if I just look at myself, then my flaws and issues get in the way; so if I suffer from low self-esteem, I am more likely to focus on the negative aspects of me and my behaviour. A spiritual guide can be helpful in aiding me to get beyond that and see the more positive parts. This is soemthing which comes ultimately from God. We are his hands on earth!
Carys
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
But the whole point is to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord. Of course God is involved in the process. Maybe this has not been spelled out as explicitly as you might like, but it is there.
Does the phrase you quoted prove your point? I would say that despite the high falutin' language, God has been demoted from the ultimate subject to the ultimate object. This is bad.
If I was a suspicious soul, I would detect a whiff of Aristotle's Unmoved Mover mediated via Aquinas. As it is, let's leave that alone
quote:
You seem to me to put so much emphasis on God's work that there's no point us doing anything.
If this were so it would be major problem for my view. But I do believe we ought to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. This is never in question. The question is, what does this look like? I have suggested that in Philippians, it means getting on with preaching the gospel, even though your very life is under threat. Do you agree?
More broadly, I would want to say that it is satisfied by obedience to the new commandment, to "Love your neighbour." IMHO this is as far from the practice of spiritual discipline as the east is from the west.
quote:
You object to introspection for reasons I have not yet understood
I don't. Really I don't. Introspection is as natural as breathing. Some of my best friends are introspective. I just don't call it a spiritual discipline, and I want to make the relatively non-contentious observation (I would have thought) that there are some situations where it would be wise to steer clear of it. I certainly wouldn't want to make it a virtue or turn it into a part of a spiritual exercise.
A broader and slightly tangential question here: Has anyone yet mentioned in this 10 page uber-thread any spiritual discipline, so-called, which doesn't involve as part or whole of it a fairly intense focus on the self? I can't think of one off the top of my head. It seems quite the opposite of New testament religion, which is summed up by the command "Love your neighbour". A religion which draws us away from the fulfilment of this command would seem rather disastrous!
quote:
A spiritual guide can be helpful in aiding me to get beyond that and see the more positive parts. This is soemthing which comes ultimately from God. We are his hands on earth!
I am suspicious of the terminology, as always. But I love the idea of friendship and encouragement to be like Christ. Is there more to being a spiritual guide than this? I hope not.
[ 20. December 2005, 09:26: Message edited by: Gordon Cheng ]
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
I'll come back to the post in which this appears at greater length... but this quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
In keeping with the semi-Pelagian style of Roman Catholic thinking, you will notice that the emphasis in this foundational point is nearly entirely on the work that the person undergoing the Spiritual Exercises is to do for themselves.
is both an unrecognisable travesty of Catholic theology and a basic misunderstanding of the point St Ignatius is making.
I don't think you know what the semi-Pelagian heresy was. Two clues: it was condemned by the Church at the Ecumenical Council of Orange in 529 and so forms no part of the Magisterium. Grace comes from God and no other.
[ 20. December 2005, 09:49: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
As always, Duo, I don't mind being enlightened by people who know better, which in my case is most of them. But it's traditional to give actual reasons for why you think something has been misrepresented, rather than just saying that it has been.
I am aware of the council of Orange, I just thnk that later Roman Catholicism has fallen into the trap that they tried to avoid. Augustine may have been part of the problem, but let's not go there on this thread.
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Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
But the whole point is to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord. Of course God is involved in the process. Maybe this has not been spelled out as explicitly as you might like, but it is there.
Does the phrase you quoted prove your point? I would say that despite the high falutin' language, God has been demoted from the ultimate subject to the ultimate object. This is bad.
Why?
quote:
If I w[ere] a suspicious soul, I would detect a whiff of Aristotle's Unmoved Mover mediated via Aquinas. As it is, let's leave that alone
I'm not keen on Greek philosophy at the expense of the OT tradition, but I don't see how that's relevant here.
quote:
quote:
You seem to me to put so much emphasis on God's work that there's no point us doing anything.
If this were so it would be major problem for my view. But I do believe we ought to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. This is never in question. The question is, what does this look like? I have suggested that in Philippians, it means getting on with preaching the gospel, even though your very life is under threat. Do you agree?
It's not just `what does it look like?' (loving our neighbours as ourselves) but `how do we acheive this?'
quote:
More broadly, I would want to say that it is satisfied by obedience to the new commandment, to "Love your neighbour." IMHO this is as far from the practice of spiritual discipline as the east is from the west.
I disagree. Spiritual disciplines are there to help us be obedient to that command. That is what they are pointing us towards. By reflecting on Christ, we come to know more what he would do. By examining what we have done recently, we can see where we have gone wrong.
quote:
quote:
You object to introspection for reasons I have not yet understood
I don't. Really I don't. Introspection is as natural as breathing. Some of my best friends are introspective. I just don't call it a spiritual discipline, and I want to make the relatively non-contentious observation (I would have thought) that there are some situations where it would be wise to steer clear of it. I certainly wouldn't want to make it a virtue or turn it into a part of a spiritual exercise.
But it can be part of that. It's about self-awareness.
quote:
quote:
A spiritual guide can be helpful in aiding me to get beyond that and see the more positive parts. This is soemthing which comes ultimately from God. We are his hands on earth!
I am suspicious of the terminology, as always. But I love the idea of friendship and encouragement to be like Christ. Is there more to being a spiritual guide than this? I hope not.
It's not quite the same as friendship. IMO. I take it as a one-way thing (my spiritual guide offers me advice and guidance but has someone else to do that for her). This stops me hiding my problems to help her. It doesn't have the socialising aspects of friendships either but is deeper.
Anyway, I'm about to be thrown out of the library so I'd better go.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
A broader and slightly tangential question here: Has anyone yet mentioned in this 10 page uber-thread any spiritual discipline, so-called, which doesn't involve as part or whole of it a fairly intense focus on the self? I can't think of one off the top of my head. It seems quite the opposite of New testament religion, which is summed up by the command "Love your neighbour". A religion which draws us away from the fulfilment of this command would seem rather disastrous!
On those rare occasions when someone asks me, "What's the meaning of life?", my response is usually, "Know yourself and serve others." It may not seem like it, but it's not that far from "love your neighbour."
Love your neighbour. How? Aside from sitting on my couch thinking warm thoughts about my neighbour, what does this mean? YMMV, but in my experience it means knowing both what your neighbour needs and what you have to offer. Introspection is one side of that equation, observation the other.
OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
More broadly, I would want to say that it is satisfied by obedience to the new commandment, to "Love your neighbour." IMHO this is as far from the practice of spiritual discipline as the east is from the west.
Um, whatever happened to the "first and greatest commandment" - to love *God* with all your heart and soul and mind and strength? Loving your neighbour is "merely" the second commandment: as a general summary *on its own*, it falls a long way short of the NT (or rather dominical) calling.
Paul likens being a Christian to being an Olympic runner. This suggests a very disciplined (one might say "self-displined") approach to being a Christian. Olympic runners don't get to be Olympic runners by practicing whenever they feel like it: they have to run every day. How does one "love God with all one's mind" like an Olympic runner? How does one "love God with all one's heart" like an Olympic runner? How does one "love God with all one's soul" like an Olympic runner? Etc.
My understanding of spiritual disciplines is not focussing on oneself (yes, I have seen plenty of this), but focussing on God. Like Paul says: "Whatever is true .. honest .. etc - think on these things". He doesn't want us to leave our minds up to the vicissitudes of chance, but to exercise control over our thoughts. This is spiritual discipline. To pick one example: taking time everyday, whether one feels in the mood or not, to pray through the morning and evening prayer is one (of many) ways to *turn* one's mind to God - not to let it wander to and fro all the time, which would amount to leaving it up to luck whether your mind ever finds God.
The prophetess Anna spent decades praying in the temple. She doesn't seem to be criticised for this seclusion and devotion to prayer. Rather, she was privileged to be one of the first to see the Messiah. As a persistent (disciplined) praying person, she looks like an "Olympic runner" to me - indeed a medallist ("Gold, gold, gold!" as an Aussie commentator would say).
But my images of spiritual growth and spiritual diciplines are the traditional ones of the Desert Saints (men and women who followed in the footsteps of Anna) and the Carmelites (especially the two Thereses and Brother Laurence of the Resurrection who wrote the classic "Practice of the Presence of God"). In looking at these people I hear that whisper of the Spirit: "This is the way; walk ye in it" - in so far as you can with a full time job and a spouse and two children!
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