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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Christian/Biblical Perspective on Oral Sex?
Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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Fr. G
quote:
The canon of Scripture included the book without demur.
Actually, the Rabbis had big reservations about whether SoS 'defiled the hands' (was canonical) or not - just as they did with perhaps its polar opposite in the canon (unless that title goes to Leviticus!!) Ecclesiasticus. It seems almost certain that they included it because of their perception that the canon 'needed it'. And of course they were right. By the way, when I did SoS as a text in second year (I was an arts student - it was forbidden to divinity students as being too racy - they had to do Lamentations instead [Killing me] ) one of the comentaries we looked at was that of Yigael Yadin. A former soldier. Suffice it to say that I've always had difficulty with allegorical interpretations since then.... [Hot and Hormonal]

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
# 2270

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quote:
Ecclesiasticus.
EcclesiastES
...ES
...ES
...ES
...ES
...ES
...ES
...ES
...ES
...ES

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.sorry......

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Which surpises me since I thought that the Jews had a much better attitude to sex than we do. Maybe they thought that it was unseemly to sing about "it" in public. But there again, I'm English ... but not typically, [Biased] .

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
Dear Daisymay

quote:
Do we take it that sexual activity of all kinds is biblically promoted by canticles because it's sung about there?

I don't see how you can come to that conclusion from the Song of Solomon. There is no hint of censure by way of commentary or gloss. The canon of Scripture included the book without demur. The fact that Christian apologists (usually monks) have sought to allegorise the uncomfortable bits in no way depreciates the original context.

What about David? Hardly the sexually pure hero. Yet, we sing his psalms and take there reference points as edifying. What about the murderer Moses? Do we disparage the Decalogue because the hands that held the tablets of the Law were bloodstained?

Think you misread me - "promoted" not "prohibited" all kinds of sexual activity. I like Canticles, both as a sexual song and an allegory - it does well as both.

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London
Flickr fotos

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Sorry ... no they certainly don't promote ... but they perhaps do reflect what was considered "normal."

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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psyduck,
what are the arguments in the Talmud about canticles?
and what do rabbis then and now say about oral sex? (probably, "on the one hand..." and "on the other hand...")

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London
Flickr fotos

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Scot

Deck hand
# 2095

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quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
perhaps a theological term such as mutual masturbation would be preferable to such crudeness as "dry fucking."

"Mutual masturbation" is a theological term? I suppose I've been jerked off by plenty of clergy, so maybe you are right.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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Anyone who wants to explain "dry fucking" to the uninitiated can p.m. me... if that's not too Hellish a statement for Purgatory.

And don't tease me because I've never heard of it. Just tell me already, so my imagination will let it go!

[ 31. December 2003, 01:12: Message edited by: Janine ]

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235

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quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
BTW, got a link to that study? It sounds interesting.

Found this as I couldn't sleep:

Deconstructing the Dutch Utopia

[Named the link the title of the study]

[ 31. December 2003, 07:15: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Irish & Proud
Shipmate
# 4825

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quote:
Originally posted by caz667:
I know of a couple who quite openly disagree with oral sex; saying that because it cannot lead to pregnancy it cannot be "of God". I would disagree with this opinion

From reading what is on this discussion, this is the only instance I have found where there is an opinion that says Oral sex is wrong no matter where it happens. (I included the last sentnece because I did not want it to come across that caz agreed with the opinion). Does this couple also refrain from kissing as that is also intimate and feels nice, but doesn't lead to pregnancy?

Is there anyone on these boards who sincerely thinks oral sex is inherently bad? Have we found something we all agree on? [Eek!]

The rest of the discussion seems merely to be about whether it counts as sex. I think it does count as sex, if only because I would defy anyone to be in that situation and not want it to go further. As a result the discussion then heads into the realm of 'is sex outside of marriage OK?' and there is a good dead horse there already for that.

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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Are you suggesting sex with a dead horse outside of marriage? [Eek!]
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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Anyone who wants to explain "dry fucking" to the uninitiated can p.m. me... if that's not too Hellish a statement for Purgatory.

I suggest you type that phrase into your search engine and then spend many happy hours exploring the results.

(Google will give you 1270 results. I now have several fascinating new sites bookmarked.)

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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Sine, shocked. I am shocked. You know, if it weren't for you and tortuf, this board would be pretty classy.
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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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Tortuf, I will PM you the better sites, as requested.
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Caz...
Shipmate
# 3026

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quote:
Originally posted by Irish & Proud:
quote:
Originally posted by caz667:
I know of a couple who quite openly disagree with oral sex; saying that because it cannot lead to pregnancy it cannot be "of God".

From reading what is on this discussion, this is the only instance I have found where there is an opinion that says Oral sex is wrong no matter where it happens... does this couple also refrain from kissing as that is also intimate and feels nice, but doesn't lead to pregnancy?
No...... and don't get me even STARTED about how illogical that is. [Mad]

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"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Dear Irish and Proud

quote:
Have we found something we all agree on?
Let's ask for a Poll! [Two face]

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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Irish & Proud
Shipmate
# 4825

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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Are you suggesting sex with a dead horse outside of marriage? [Eek!]

[Killing me]
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251

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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Sine, shocked. I am shocked. You know, if it weren't for you and tortuf, this board would be pretty classy.

Oh,oh - Tortuf's cracking jokes and speaking about himself in the third person. Here we go into the twilight zone.

and they only let me edit links and pick fights.

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2^8, eight bits to a byte

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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
perhaps a theological term such as mutual masturbation would be preferable to such crudeness as "dry fucking."

"Mutual masturbation" is a theological term? I suppose I've been jerked off by plenty of clergy, so maybe you are right.
Yes, Scot, it truly is a theological term - one which the moral theologians used centuries before we were born. The term normally was employed in texts which explained that (for example) petting to orgasm with someone other than one's spouse indeed is adultery (whether it was adultery according to the law or not.)

Of course, I tend to think of casual sex as basically using another person as an object to masturbate against/with, but I'll save that for another thread. I of all people* should hardly have been the one to introduce some on the Ship to the concept of dry fucking... the suit of armour was a more appropriate reference, because I am a medievalist. [Big Grin]

*For those who do not 'know' me, I'm a vowed celibate, and am in part laughing at myself here - lest I be mistaken for a prude, even though I probably am.

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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn

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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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Is this a hell thread that missed it's appointment?

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Gremlin
Ship's Cryptanalyst
# 129

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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Anyone who wants to explain "dry fucking" to the uninitiated can p.m. me... if that's not too Hellish a statement for Purgatory.

Feel free (IMHO) to enlighten this thread with the information too! [Smile]

Gremlin

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Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
Ahhh...I see the screw-up fairy has visited us again...
Oh I get it... like humour... but different.

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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Is this a hell thread that missed it's appointment?

Why - do you want it? Well, you shan't have it. It's our runt and we're proud of it.

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2^8, eight bits to a byte

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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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I guess we all have to have a runt eventually.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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Trisagion:
from the review of the book on Dutch sex education-
quote:
* Schools in the Netherlands enjoy a degree of independence from the state which is far greater than that experienced here. There is no national curriculum.
* Different schools handle sex education in different ways, reflecting the views of the parents and teachers. Differences between Dutch schools are probably greater than any identifiable difference between the Dutch and British models of sex education.
British schools do very different types of sex education, and I don't think there is a specific government edict.

* Sex education does not start at younger ages. It is not more explicit. There is no evidence that teachers are using sex education to promote permissive views. The difference between teenage pregnancy rates in Britain and the Netherlands cannot, therefore, be due to sex education. There must be another explanation.
Starting earlier, rather then at the same age, doesn't seem to be the solution to all the problems. Starting very young, with appropriate teaching for the age, though, is IMO, the correct thing to do.

* Teenage pregnancy is the result of teenage sexual activity. We need to relate differences in pregnancy rates to those factors which are known to influence the likelihood of young people becoming sexually active.
Do we know what they are? that would certainly bea useful piece of knowledge.

* It is well known that young people from single-parent and non-traditional family structures are more likely to be sexually active.
Is it? What evidence do we have?

It is in this area that we find a great difference between the two countries. British children are five times more likely to live in a family headed by a lone parent than their Dutch counterparts. They are more likely to be in third-party care, and to find their mothers out at work when they get back from school.
Five times!

* There is little support from the welfare system in the Netherlands for teenage mothers, and until recently, almost none at all.

So does this stop teenagers from having children, or does the UK provide support because we have more teenage pregnancies?

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London
Flickr fotos

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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A question for the liturgically minded among you. If you dry fuck while drinking GIN, is it still dry fucking? Or is it only wet if you use too much vermouth?
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Amos

Shipmate
# 44

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The former.

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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depends how much you spill

--------------------
I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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You felt quite the devil while posting that, didn't you?

Actually, I was at a party last night, dancing with two women at the same time, which shed a bit of light on the entire concept.

However, I don't feel so good this morning and need to go lie back down.

Anybody have an icepack I can borrow?

[Replying to Tortuf.]

[ 01. January 2004, 13:49: Message edited by: Sine Nomine ]

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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Newman's Own, I'm going to have to disagree with your observation that casual sex is
quote:
basically using another person as an object to masturbate against/with . . .
As has been observed by no less a personage than JennH
quote:
Casual sex is a decision you have to make in "the moment" I think. I used to say, "no way, never". Then one day I did it and felt this strange power in being able to treat men then way they sometimes treat women...I saw the appeal they see and had the enjoyment of the sex without the guilt of not calling them the next day...or the guilt of feeling as though I _should_ call them.

I'm talking in circles here for some reason. Casual sex, as long as you are enjoying it mutually is a wonderful invention. Casual sex that is not enjoyable is a waste of time (sorry, Jenna...but it's true) and energy.

Besides, sex is great exercise and my tummy has never looked slimmer! Heh.

Link here.
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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Sine, I fail to see what dancing with two women has to do with sex.

Oh, wait a minute, now I remember.

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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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What is the Christian perspective on dancing with two women at the same time, outside of marriage?
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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Depends on how close you are dancing and what your dancing intent is.

If there is not more than a 3.75 mm distance between your forbidden parts and any one of their forbidden parts you are going straight to Hell when you die.

Same like so with dancing intent. If you intend to do something about dancing with both women at once, and have not invited me to the dance, you are going straight to Hell when you die.

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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
If there is not more than a 3.75 mm distance between your forbidden parts and any one of their forbidden parts you are going straight to Hell when you die.

Oops! [Hot and Hormonal]

But this is good to know for future reference. 3.75 mm will keep one out of Hell, you say?

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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169

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quote:
What is the Christian perspective on dancing with two women at the same time, outside of marriage?
I am of the opinion that, when it involves two partners, it becomes casual sex.

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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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Dance thee 3.75 mm away. Dance thee not 3.76 mm away. Neither dance thee 3.74 mm away. This then shall be the path to the pearly gates.
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Lurker McLurker™

Ship's stowaway
# 1384

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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
BTW, got a link to that study? It sounds interesting.

Found this as I couldn't sleep:

Deconstructing the Dutch Utopia

[Named the link the title of the study]

I've always thought the lower rates of teenage pregnancies etc. on the continent were because people over there are more likely to be frank about sex than we are. Maybe they don't need education at school to be so explicit because they don't have such prudish parents, so the kids hear about it at home.

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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?

Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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Too true Grits. Too true. One partner is not casual. Two partners is casual and three or more partners is just too exhausting to be casual.
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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Dance thee 3.75 mm away. Dance thee not 3.76 mm away.

excepting that thou proceed to dance at 3.75mm away. 3.73 mm is right out.

[helps if I get it closer to the original]

[ 01. January 2004, 15:19: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Lurker McLurker™

Ship's stowaway
# 1384

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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Too true Grits. Too true. One partner is not casual. Two partners is casual and three or more partners is just too exhausting to be casual.

Surely one partner is about as casual as it gets. Though you will know your partner's name in the morning.

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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?

Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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Lurker, yes, but is it a sin to be casual with just one partner as opposed to two or more partners?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
quote:
What is the Christian perspective on dancing with two women at the same time, outside of marriage?
I am of the opinion that, when it involves two partners, it becomes casual sex.
Well, one of the boyfriends was passed out on his back, on the bed, with his hands on his...well you get the picture.

At any rate, thanks to this thread, I knew Right from Wrong. God Bless You, Ship of Fools.

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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We live to serve.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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So do I.

But his girlfriend would have clawed my eyes out.

Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lurker McLurker™

Ship's stowaway
# 1384

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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Lurker, yes, but is it a sin to be casual with just one partner as opposed to two or more partners?

Ah, one partner, not one participant

I got the wrong end of the stick here, I think.

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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?

Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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Sine. We have had to have the discussion about why you should invite me to parties more than once before now haven't we? But Noooo. Sine goes to a party without adequate back up time and time again. [Disappointed]
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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I love the holiday season in Purg. It's just so...festive. Great party guys! [Yipee]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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Well, yes, Lurker. As you should be well aware, that well respected Christian thinker, RooK, has written a truly thoughtful post on the subject of multiple participants in oral sex, rather than multiple partners in oral sex. I forget exactly what he said, but it had to do with something or another about thuribles and sanitation.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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I've always felt those Lysol wipes were more than adequate.

Can't say they taste very good though.

Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169

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Where are those Purgatory hosts? It's going to take a truckload of Lysol wipes just to clean up this thread.

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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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I know. Pity isn't it? There is never a Purgatory host around when you need one. [Disappointed]
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged



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