Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
You can all celebrate now.

God help the children.

---

quote:

---

What I wasn't expecting was so many people talking as if abortion is some kind of life-enriching experience and/or something that must be practised at all costs.

---

How dare you. Either of you.

What evidence is there that anyone posting here, who hoped to have some compassion shown to this little girl, would even think of rejoicing? Or that the abortion would be a "life-enriching experience for her?" (If you look back to my posting on page one, I said the abortion would be a difficult thing for her to go through, just not as difficult as giving birth to, and raising, a baby at this age.)

I was encouraged at the beginning of this thread because it looked like, for once, there was intelligent, respectful, and compassionate dialog going on between people who had differing views on a subject where there's normally little room for negotiation. I was genuinely moved by those of you who take a pro-life position but who could say "maybe...." I found myself trying to think through adoption as a genuine option here, but couldn't get past the thought of this little girl in labor (or having a C-section -- don't get me started, I've had two!). I saw careful wording and listening, and reminders of God's love for us in our human brokenness. And then the thread got hijacked by extremists. Sad.

Let us all pray for the physical, mental, and emotional healing of this little girl, and that her baby is resting in God's arms.

daisymay, thank you for your well-written arguments. You said everything I wanted to and then some.

--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

Posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mamacita:
How dare you. Either of you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by daisymay:
Well, I'm celebrating that there were three doctors with the guts skill and compassion to take the initiative to help the girl. And that her parents were wise and strong enough to keep asking for that help. And for the people with banners who were supporting them to get it.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fen:

quote:

---

The Mid:
a constant reminder of the brutality and horror and consequences of rape

---

Or a constant reminder of how God can actually bring life and goodness out of the most utterly screwed-up circumstances?

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

What I believe she is "celebrating" (and please see my comment below about that choice of word) is that some people who cared about this little girl took the initiative to help her, to come to her rescue. There is a subtle, but very important, difference between "celebrating" the courage of caring adults and "celebrating" the fact that an abortion has taken place. I see nothing in any of daisymay's other comments that suggest she would find an abortion something to be joyous about -- quite the opposite, in fact; she said that several times.
I suspect her use of "celebrating" was a rhetorical device, responding in kind to your post which you have to admit was accusatory in tone.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
You're wrong.

As would an abortion be. The child needs all the love and help in the world, but so does her child.

They're both victims. Why victimise them further?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by daisymay:
When a child has been abused, if she can have sensible and helpful adults around her, helping her to get over the sexual asault and the physical consequences, she has more of a chance of recovery.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by tomb:

If a child that age carries a baby to term, then delivery will most likely be by cesarian section. Anasthesia. Major surgery. Cutting of abdominal muscles because her pelvis won't be developed enough to deliver the child. God only knows what health problems she will suffer later in life because she carried a child to term while she herself was still a child.

Terminating the pregnancy would be equally invasive for the mother--not to mention that it would kill the life (or potential life) she is carrying. Violence and more violence. Misery at every turn.

---

Posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by Newman's Own:
I have some very old RC moral theology books which, though not speaking of the specific situation of abortion, do allow for cases where killing is possible if (and only if) death is inevitable. For example, if one were trapped under a burning vehicle, one could morally (though not legally, as far as I know!) shoot him to avoid his having the agony of being burnt alive. Though I don't think there would be too many situations today where a child who is alive in the womb would be guaranteed to be stillborn, is this a similar case?

---

quote:

---

What if someone taking fertility drugs were to conceive ten children at once? There is no chance for ten to survive in the womb. Would it be permissible to remove some of them in order that some may live?

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
And JL, adoption is considered to be as bad as abortion by some.

---

WHAT?!!

On what basis?

--------------------
Brodavid

"Prayer can do anything that God can do."
- E.M. Bounds

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:

Daisymay,

The missionary would not have been responsible for the mother's death, unless she engineered the situation in the first place. As for the rights issue - perhaps the language of rights isn't helpful. I think the pro-life position can be summarised thus:

1. The deliberate killing of an innocent is always wrong, and there are no circumstances which would justify resorting to such a wrong.
2. Abortion constitutes the deliberate killing of an innocent.
3. Abortion can never be justified.

This applies even in those tragic cases where the chances are that both lives will be lost. The situation must be accepted "as is", without recourse to immoral pseudo-remedies.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
I find myself wishing I could find an excuse to abort this thread, even though it's in the fourth page-mester.

---

Rook, you tasteless "used to be Canadian". I say the local Canadian trade office revoke your maple leaf icon for being such a twit. If this is your attempt at humour, it failed...grossly.

--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posted                   

quote:

---

The weaker one was sapping the strength of the stronger so that, unseparated, both would die. If they were separated, the weaker one (who was also brain-damaged) would certainly die, and the other would live. There again, surely to separate the twins was not to "kill" one, but to save the other? Or would you have left them both to die?

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
....... The situation was tragic, but you'll recall that the Catholic parents - with the support of the Cormac Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor - wanted the children to be allowed to continue to live as long as possible, but die natural deaths without recourse to murder of one to save the life of the other. I think the State's interference, ordering the killing of one child, was criminal.

---

As against the criminal allowing of one to die for the sake of one who would die as well. That's f**king state assisted suicide for religious reasons.

[Proper Canadians, as the intellectual examples for the rest of the world, should always use Preview post - no matter how angry they are when they're posting.]

[ 25. February 2003, 02:29: Message edited by: RooK ]

--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posted                       

quote:

---

Despite their initial opposition, the couple have told newspapers they are relieved the judges stopped them from letting nature take its course, condemning both girls to death.

---

quote:

---

"My wife Rina and I didn't want to separate them ever. It was against our strong religious beliefs.

"Of course we're now happy that we still have Gracie - this is the greatest Father's Day gift I could ever have wished for."

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

I think the State's interference, ordering the killing of one child, was criminal.

---

Posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by daisymay:
We have child protection laws in this country that require us to act to save children's lives. They have been put in place by sensible legislators. That is why parents are not allowed to "allow a child to die" when she could be saved. They did not order the killing of one child; she was going to die soon anyway - they ordered the saving of the other child's life.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

The surgical "separation" entailed killing the weaker child, Louise - you twist the ethics of the case by misrepresenting it, since death was not a consequence of separation but a necessary precursor to it.

---