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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Inside The Mind Of Chick, vol CXVII...
Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012

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Gee Amanuensis, you really think nobody else has figured that out yet? Or that they are either enjoying playing with him, or hoping that by rebuffing the rubbish he is spouting, that others reading won't get taken in?

Perhaps I should have posted a large "Caution: Trolls' Play Area" sign earlier? Then again, everyone else seemed to realise...

Viki, hellhost

[Perfected punctuation. Even hosts are occasionally imperfect.]

[ 03. November 2002, 14:14: Message edited by: sarkycow ]

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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”

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Poet_of_Gold
Shipmate
# 2071

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Whatever you say about his views, Mr. Chick most definitely is an artist. Being one myself, I should know. His drawings show skill, passion, and observation of his subjects. And unlike many artists, he chooses to use his skills to try and lead others to God. His tracts are informative whether or not you share his views. The ones about FreeMasons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Moslems do give real facts and explanations of their views and ways of life.

No, not everyone who is Catholic is an unsaved non-believer in Christ. But there runs a real danger in anything built on tradition to run through the traditions for tradition's sake without feeling or meaning the real point of why it's done.

I agree for the most part with The Master Musician by John Michael Talbot. Every denomination from Catholic through Protestant and on down to charismatics has its strong points and weaknesses. Until we reach Heaven none of us will reach perfection. If God wanted instant perfection in His people on earth, they would be so. He instead chooses an interaction, a growing, and a journey for His people. It is for us, then, to appreciate what is good, pray about what is not, and to live and let live with those who disagree with us.

Posts: 204 | From: USA | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
ej
Shipmate
# 2259

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quote:
posted by el18:
New tract out today by the way. Chick at 80 is still down with the kids, very realistic obnoxious skaters swearing at adults. The real challenge would be to do one for the tracksuited youth of Britain. Perhaps I could drop him a line...

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5018/5018_01.asp?FROM=bibleseries

Bit dissapointed, no hawhawhaws ,lightbulb headed God, lake of fire or digs at the HRCC. On the other hand that means it's a tract I'd consider passing out. Gets a (righteous) dig in at homosexuals, that might help one of today's brainswashed youth. Not-PC, but only objectionable to a really tetchy queen.

I'm praying hard that that was sarcasm... If this is what you honestly believe... [Disappointed] [Paranoid] [Killing me]

If this is what you really believe el18, would you mind informing us just how much childrens/teen ministry your involved in? As someone involved in youth ministry, I know that the target audience for this track would either bin it asap (as they would with MOST tracts/written material), or use it as a source of unendless mirth and amusement... It so patronises and treats them with contempt and disrespect... I don't think I could have created a worse attempt to communicate with today's youth if I had tried...

It's an insult both to youth, to other Christians, and to God. I don't think Christ had this sort of mumbo-jumbo in mind as his justification while he was hanging on the cross...

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For my next trick I shall turn this water into funk...
...a little breathing-space...

Posts: 426 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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Poet_of_Gold:

His tracts are informative whether or not you share his views. The ones about FreeMasons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Moslems do give real facts and explanations of their views and ways of life.

If the "facts" in these tracts are as inaccurate as the "facts" in Chick's tracts about Roman Catholicism, Evolution, and Fantasy RPGs, then they are as much use as a chocolate teapot, and just as likely to get the user's fingers burnt.

Let's just face it, the man's a pillock.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
simon 2
Shipmate
# 1524

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One of the early frames in the last tract looks like the front row of a Bathory or Visceral Bleeding gig. Describing Chick's detatchment from reality as out of touch comes no where near the mark.

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sorry for my spelling and bad gramma

Posts: 495 | From: in a forest | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736

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Well, the great JTC debate rolls on.

Tomb "Your liberal views" ,was in the plural, I was addressing all those on the thread (and lurking) who object so much to Chick, not yourself. As you say, you have made none of your views known (then again neither have I, and that hasn't stopped some very personal attacks), though your defensive nature towards me suggests you cannot take anyone who would defend Chick seriously. As for my reputation, I post and lurk here to learn about God... ...if I want friends I'll go out in the real world.

JimT In real life, I tend to say things as I see them, and have a sense of humour that can tend towards the offensive. My wife frequently admonishes me for this, people can often read me the wrong way. It's worse on the internet where there are no clues to your true feelings from intonation of one's voice. Americans can also miss deadpan humour. I apologise if I was taken out of context. For "really tetchy queen" read "militant homosexual activist".

Without getting onto the difficult subject of human sexuality, the majority of "homosexuals" are hedonistic and promiscous, living a very unhappy and self destructive life. The myth we are taught of monogamous gay couples is sadly just that, a myth. Jack Chick highlights this - like everything else - in a very forthright manner, but that doesn't remove the truth in what is said.

FCB Junior High-School Christianity? Well we are supposed to be child-like in our faith. Joking apart, I have made no secret of my relatively recent "coming to Christ" [Killing me] and the lack of depth to my theological knowledge on other threads. That is why by and large I lurk on these boards, I'm here to learn mostly.

One thing I do like about Chick is the very simple message of assurance once you accept Christ, seems much preferable to the Calvinist mind-gymnastics mentioned further up the thread.

Poet_of_Gold A good post. I shall endevour to look up John Michael Talbot.

ej As a child who loved to read Oink! comics (and in adolescence Viz), I would have lapped up Chick tracts, with their heavy satire and Hogarthian use of grotesques to lampoon modern society. That might not make me a "typical" youth, but there was clearly a market for those secular comics, so I was not alone.

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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!

Posts: 52 | From: overboard | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Callan
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# 525

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Originally posted by Poet of Gold:

quote:
No, not everyone who is Catholic is an unsaved non-believer in Christ. But there runs a real danger in anything built on tradition to run through the traditions for tradition's sake without feeling or meaning the real point of why it's done.
But Chick isn't making your rather innocuous point about the dangers of tradition. What he is saying is that the Pope is the Antichrist, that Roman Catholics are the servants of Antichrist and presumably that those of us who don't subscribe to Chick Theology are fellow travellers of Antichrist.

And he really, really doesn't do research. On subjects which I do know a little about, he is frequently and hilariously inaccurate. I would not trust a Chick publication for information about anything more than the authors prejudices.

What Chick does effectively is Grand Guignol horror. His tracts are mildly diverting, superior entertainment to the backs of matchboxes, less entertaining than the average collection of Horror Short Stories. He is - grits teeth - my brother in Christ and may he find mercy at the hour of his death. But there is no need to be any more eirenic than that. Chick appears incapable of intellectual rigour or honesty, or indeed Christian charity and any analysis of his oeuvre should start from those facts.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022

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Perhaps eleighteen would like to give me the personal experience he has for making the comments he does about gay people. The only thing that may affect a gay person's abilty to form relationships is societal homophobia.

I was interested to read that I don't exist. As someone who has been in a monogamous gay relationship for 10 and a half years, I must remind myself daily of my mythical status.

I would have thought the tract concerned would be objectionable to all except the bigoted

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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Quote from eleighteen
quote:
As for my reputation, I post and lurk here to learn about God... ...if I want friends I'll go out in the real world.
Would you please tell me what you have learned about God from lurking on the ship.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
His tracts are informative whether or not you share his views. The ones about FreeMasons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Moslems do give real facts and explanations of their views and ways of life.

That puts them in the minority. Anyone ever read the one on Islam?

I have never read such an active hindrance to witness in my life.

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736

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quote:
Originally posted by Merseymike:
Perhaps eleighteen would like to give me the personal experience he has for making the comments he does about gay people. The only thing that may affect a gay person's abilty to form relationships is societal homophobia.

I was interested to read that I don't exist. As someone who has been in a monogamous gay relationship for 10 and a half years, I must remind myself daily of my mythical status.

I would have thought the tract concerned would be objectionable to all except the bigoted

Mike I prefer not to use anecdotal evidence in arguments. There are hundreds of studies about gay sexual behaviour out there (from all sorts of organisations), they can be summarised as: Gays are mostly bisexual men, seeking hedonistic pleasure with as many partners as possible. Indeed, many gay "couples" are just a convenient live-in relationship, where both "partners" continue to seek casual sex with strangers. Anyone with any compassion can see this is a highly destructive lifestyle.

Your situation is different (and the rights/wrongs of it have probably been done to death on these boards), but the evidence says you are in a very small minority.

Moo I don't know whether your post is antagonistic or not. This thread is about Chick. I may post what I've learnt from SOF someday on a different thread, but it isn't very interesting and would smack of egotism on my part. FWIW, the variety of arguments on the Ship has been useful for me in trying to work out where I stand, for that I am very grateful.

Wood Chick tracts may not do it in the best way possible, but they tell the truth when they say God/Allah is not going to let you into heaven just because you prayed five times a day and fasted at Ramadan. And Islam is Judaism/Christianity bastardised to suit cultural norms, based on the "revelations" of a charlatan. Perhaps the tracts would be better off pointing out how central Christ is to the Koran, but this is not the route Jack has chosen to take. That doesn't make what he says untrue however.

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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!

Posts: 52 | From: overboard | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stoo

Mighty Pirate
# 254

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CAn I just say, this thread is great? I've not had such a laugh in ages.

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Posts: 5266 | From: the director of "Bikini Traffic School" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022

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oh dear....now, think about it. If you are going to do any sort of survey, it depends who you ask. Most of the surveys you refer to were done in the context of HIV prevention and surveyed gay men on the commercial scene, in order to plan safer sex campaigning and outreach.
Now, if you did a similar survey of heterosexual behaviour and chose as your sample people who used clubs and pubs aimed at young, sexually active people, I wonder what sort of results you would get ?
Even so, some of your statements are daft - 'gays are mostly bisexual' ( does that mean gay men may have occasionally slept with a woman - if we say that all straight men who have ever had any experience with men are gay, then we may not be such a small minority after all), 'hedonistic pleasure with as many partners as possible' - this all sounds very reminiscent of Paul Cameron, the Christian Institute et al

I am a social researcher, and surveying sexual behaviour or lifestyles is fraught with difficulties, particularly when the group concerned is, other than the aformentioned club-centred people, very difficult to reach. There are surveys which show that monogamy is not practiced in a large numberheterosexual relationships either, although I would agree that the 'open' relationship is something which has developed primarily within some gay cultures. From a Christian perspective it is something I would not advocate, but given that gay men were not legally allowed to have any relationships at all,until 1967, in the UK, and given that its still relatively difficult to meet people, maybe it isn't too surprising.

I feel sure that stable relationships, which I support, will be easier as society becomes more accepting, but I think there's plenty of that anecdotal evidence around to show this is already a trend. Short of every gay person developing a pink triangle on their forehead, though, gaining valid and relaiable statistical evidence is simply impossible

PS : Sorry this is off the topic, probably purgatorial, or expired equinal, but I felt such generalisations needed some comeback.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
Wood Chick tracts may not do it in the best way possible, but they tell the truth when they say God/Allah is not going to let you into heaven just because you prayed five times a day and fasted at Ramadan. And Islam is Judaism/Christianity bastardised to suit cultural norms, based on the "revelations" of a charlatan.

But they lie with the whole "Allah is a moon God" thing.

Islam is not bastardised Christianity. It's a different quantity entirely. If you're going to witness to a Muslim, you're doomed unless you have your facts straight. I believe in a God who wants us to use the truth. I was under the impression that says lying is wrong. Hence, I'll not be using any of Chick's material. Because it lies. Which is hardly Christian under any stretch of the imagination.

Also: your "knowledge" of what homosexuals are like is sorelyt lacking in depth, inasmuch as you appear to draw a dated stereotype wholly from the gay club scene - and let's face it, it's not as if the hetero club scene is any more chaste. Assuming that all gay people are part of the same scene, and share the same way of life is as frankly stupid as assuming that all hetero people are mad promiscuous lager lourts by checking out some nightclubs in Ibiza.

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736

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On homosexual behaviour, I suggest reading Straight and Narrow by T Schmidt. The conclusions are a little conservative for some, but the research, facts and figures used are sound and there for all to see.

The point about addressing all sexual behaviour outside of marriage, not just homosexuality, is fairly central to this book. The same is true of Chick, his satirical attacks on modern (hetero)sexual mores in Baby Talk or That Crazy Guy are even more biting than his homosexual ones.

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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!

Posts: 52 | From: overboard | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Assuming that all gay people are part of the same scene, and share the same way of life is as frankly stupid ...

You've got that right. [Frown]

I'm checking my watch to see just how long it takes the thread to get moved down to Dead Horses along with the hundred or so (well -- three, I think) Threads on Homosexuality.

(Admittedly, Eleighteen may not know this, but when a subject's been gone over as many times as that has, it gets put in Dead Horses where the debating can continue, just so you know...)

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Louise
Shipmate
# 30

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Has anyone studied the sex lives of trolls recently?

They seem to be breeding round here.

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
LatinMan
Shipmate
# 1892

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quote:
Chick tracts may not do it in the best way possible, but they tell the truth when they say God/Allah is not going to let you into heaven just because you prayed five times a day and fasted at Ramadan. And Islam is Judaism/Christianity bastardised to suit cultural norms, based on the "revelations" of a charlatan. Perhaps the tracts would be better off pointing out how central Christ is to the Koran, but this is not the route Jack has chosen to take. That doesn't make what he says untrue however.
However, IIRC, Chick's tract treating the origin of Islam makes the claim that it was a Roman Catholic plot...

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* * * + * * *
_ _ _ [o]_ _ _

Posts: 603 | From: The Marches of the Archdiocese of Chicago | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
tomb
Shipmate
# 174

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[hostly warning]

As long as people confine their discussion to the substance of Jack Chick's literature, this thread is welcome to continue in Hell.

The proviso, however, is that posters also ignore the trolls' postings about homosexuality. If, alas, that topic takes over this thread to any substantitive degree, I will close it.

el18 DO NOT post any more of your opinions on homosexuality on this thread. Nobody gives a damn about what you think about it. If you are unable to contain yourself, use one of many threads in Dead Horses to share your opinion. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

This goes for you, too, Merseymike.

[/hostly warning]

tomb
hellhost

Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012

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quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
<snip> the majority of "homosexuals" are hedonistic and promiscous, living a very unhappy and self destructive life. The myth we are taught of monogamous gay couples is sadly just that, a myth. Jack Chick highlights this - like everything else - in a very forthright manner, but that doesn't remove the truth in what is said.
<snip> Gays are mostly bisexual men, seeking hedonistic pleasure with as many partners as possible. Indeed, many gay "couples" are just a convenient live-in relationship, where both "partners" continue to seek casual sex with strangers. Anyone with any compassion can see this is a highly destructive lifestyle. <snip>

Grabs hostly toasting fork

A few pointers:
  1. Hell is not the place to debate homosexuality. This includes, but is not limited to: rights/wrongs of it; biblical arguements for/against; its abnormality or otherwise; comparisons with paedophilia; relative staying power of such relationships; relative destructiveness of it and its relationships. If you wish to discuss any of these topics, or anything which comes under the general theme of homosexuality, then follow this link to a thread in Dead Horses. Read the five pages, and post your opinions there (assuming they haven't been stated already by someone else).
  2. Although we are in Hell, there are still rules. In particular, our guidelines apply. The relevant portions (in the event that you are a braindead moron and therefore have not yet read and learnt these guidelines):

    quote:
    1. Racism, sexism, etc. – while you have a right to hold whatever opinion you like, if you post racist, sexist, or whateverist drivel here, may God have mercy on your soul.

    8. The rules – apart from this, the normal Ship of Fools 10 Commandments continue to apply. But if you do break the rules, don't expect everyone else to adhere to them in responding to you. An eye for an eye...

    Sweeping statements claiming 'All/the majority of homosexuals are...' are wandering into breaches of commandments. Guidelines cannot (of course) be breached, as they are provided to give a guide to good behaviour, rather than lay down laws which must be obeyed. However, as the guidelines point out, non-adherence on one person's part means a reciprocal non-adherence on the part of others dealing with the first person.
Viki, hellhost

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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”

Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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Moving on (faster than a stream of tachyon particles), here's another one:

Another anti-evolution tract

I think one thing in Chick tracts which gets to me is the "wow! I've never heard anything like this before, and I'm instantly convinced!" part. Characters pretty much jump right in and uncritically accept what The Evangelist Character tells them.

"And, Bob -- did you know that the Royal Family are actually lizards?" "Gasp! I never knew that before!"

David
"That blows me away, my brain is reeling."

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
FatMac

Ship's Macintosh
# 2914

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
"And, Bob -- did you know that the Royal Family are actually lizards?" "Gasp! I never knew that before!"

I thought the Royal Family were the lost heirs of King David...?

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Do not beware the slippery slope - it is where faith resides.
Do not avoid the grey areas - they are where God works.

Posts: 1706 | From: Sydney | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Chast, you are spot on about the dialogue. No-one ever offers a reasoned objection. There appears to be no middle ground between "My word, I never knew that" and "Damn you, and Damn all your kind", usually followed by a visit to Old Nobodaddy and a fiery end.

The most recent tract has an example of Chick's clunking dialogue. When you-know-what is mentioned. Hip Skater Dude #1 replies "Are you criticising the homosexual lifestyle?" The homosexual lifestyle? Do Hip Skater Dudes talk like this? Does anyone? And do Hip Skater Dudes really have this kind of liberal attitude to homophobia? And if they do won't it take more than the assurance that "it smells of devils and death" to shift it? And do American children just uncritically believe what their teachers tell them until they are put right by a kindly fundamentalist?

This falls a little short of my definition of gritty social realism, it must be said.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by linzc:
I thought the Royal Family were the lost heirs of King David...?

And lizards.

quote:
Originally posted by Professor Yaffle:
This falls a little short of my definition of gritty social realism, it must be said.

[Killing me] (trying to giggle quietly whilst at work) [Killing me]

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
simon 2
Shipmate
# 1524

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My experience of skaters is they don't give a monkeys what you do with who, just don't try and do it to them. Big Brother skateboarding magazine (owned by pornographer Larry Flint) recently ran an article on an gay am skater, it was in their usual style of sexual inuendo and smut, but still very funny. The cover of the mag was of the interviewe nosegrinding down a fair sized handrail in a pair of leather chaps and not a lot else, gotta have balls to do that, and a good sense of humour.

BTW the threat of hellfire hasn't saved one of my skater friends, but love and kindness has brought them a whole lot closer to God and accepting him.

ps. Jackass is the bastard child of Dave Carnie one of the Big Brother staff and comic genius. The big brother videos crap, shit and boob all outshine Jackass by a million miles.

The mag ran the rules to Russian Poo-let recently, the funniest and most disgusting game ever devised I think.

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sorry for my spelling and bad gramma

Posts: 495 | From: in a forest | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
JimT

Ship'th Mythtic
# 142

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I read the new anti-creation tract and now I’m confused. In an earlier Creationist tract Chick said that geologists had determined that the earth was 1.4 million years old, based on erosion rates. Now, he says 6,000 years. He needs to check the facts of the Rock Cycle. What better place to look than in his head?

The outer layer of his cranium is densely layered with Impedimentary Rocks. These rocks have the property of being impervious to Truth. Therefore, the innermost parts of his head contain Ignorant Rocks. These are molten rocks that at times flow from his mouth, making highly interesting Ignorant Formations. The only rocks he does not have in his head are of course Metamorphic Rocks because change and transformation are impossible for him.

Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eanswyth

Ship's raven
# 3363

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quote:
Originally posted by JimT:
The outer layer of his cranium is densely layered with Impedimentary Rocks. These rocks have the property of being impervious to Truth. Therefore, the innermost parts of his head contain Ignorant Rocks. These are molten rocks that at times flow from his mouth, making highly interesting Ignorant Formations. The only rocks he does not have in his head are of course Metamorphic Rocks because change and transformation are impossible for him.

[Not worthy!] Bravo, JimT, Bravo! [Not worthy!] Pure genius. [Not worthy!]
Posts: 1323 | From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736

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http://www.onion.com/index.shtml

Tract Writer Cites God, Jack Chick As Influences


STILLWATER, OK—Robert Welton, founder and sole employee of Inspired Word Christian Tracts, cites God and Jack Chick as the two biggest influences on his work. "God is the one I owe the most to. Everything I write draws on something of His," Welton, 44, told reporters Tuesday. "But Jack Chick, he showed the tract-writing world how to do it. Everything from This Was Your Life to Sin Busters to the ongoing Bible Tract series are pretty much the gold standard." Welton added that Mohammed and Buddha are in their graves, but Christ's grave is empty.

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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!

Posts: 52 | From: overboard | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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Hmmm.

Either you're too thick to recognise satire (which is always a possibility) or you've just admitted that you're a troll.

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

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quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
[slight breach of copyright]

It must be true - it's in the Onion.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Robert Porter-Miller

Tiocfaidh Separabit
# 1459

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I'm sure eleighteen knows that The Onion is satire Wood. Mind you alot of people thought that The Onions Harry Potter story was quite genuine and have freely quoted it - anyway, there are worse things he could be trolling on aren't there?

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It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away - Bono and the boys

Let's all "Release Some Tension"

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simon 2
Shipmate
# 1524

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I second Wood's proposal. Perhaps we could have a poll on the subject.

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sorry for my spelling and bad gramma

Posts: 495 | From: in a forest | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736

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Ok... I'm trolling.. ..to an extent. There was a serious point in all of this somewhere, although it is questionable whether I have the skill to get it out.

There are two main charges that JTC is accused of. Firstly, his tracts are more likely to turn people away from Christianity. Secondly, his anti-Roman tracts may inspire hate.

To deal with the first point. As a recent(ish) convert(ish) there were all sorts of things thrown at me by a hawhawhaw-ing devil that personally put me off. A****, that tedious children's author, scary Durham evangelicals.... ..they scare a lot of others off too. I hope you can see that some of what some of you do does that. At best, it is hypocritical to accuse JTC of doing the same. And if anyone reads Chick and thinks "all Christians are exactly like that", then they already have strong prejiduces... ..they are people who only want them reaffirmed anyway and Chick will certainly do that!

Chicklets, well, they made me laugh. As someone with universalist leanings, Old lightbulb-head quoting Matt25.41 (taken way out of context of the rest of that chapter IMO) just pointed out the stupidity of the damnation that many Christians believe in. Or rather, how I thought they believed in it. Anyway, checking up some of Chick's quotes with the Bible (1611 KJV natch') encouraged me to do the same with other "mainstream" books. Guess what? I could interpret passages quoted there entirely differently too. It wasn't exactly how they said it was. So I got over my "damnation" problem, and could concentrate on God, with the help of.... Chick Tracts. My, he does work in strange ways. (perhaps I should write to Chick and tell him this story)

The second is well... ..more difficult. I think ( think ) that most Protestants have problems with aspects of the HRCC by definition. Not that would make RCs unsaved. Like I said on another thread, it's like the masons. There are weird bits that should be open to criticism, but the conspiracy theories... ...well they just make the accuser look silly.

From accounts of people who have been lucky enough to meet him, Chick seems a nice guy. I'd say he's been misguided, taken in by Rivera who in interviews was always very covincing. He doesn't come from a tradition of sectarian mistrust (and yes, I know his tracts are less than helpful when distributed in Ireland).. ..I think he sees it as wanting to see people saved. The attacks are always against the RCC, not catholics themselves. His benign (if loopy) nature is why you lot all return to his literature again and again... ....if it was real hate you'd leave well alone.

So to sum up the defence. Christians criticising other Christians 'cos their theology puts people off is hypocritical. The anti-Catholic stuff causes no real harm. And they're are a blinking good read and have helped at least one member of the ship.

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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!

Posts: 52 | From: overboard | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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Quote from eleighteen
quote:
Ok... I'm trolling.. ..to an extent. There was a serious point in all of this somewhere, although it is questionable whether I have the skill to get it out.
Why don't you just say what you think directly instead of hinting at a serious point which you're not sure you can get out.

Are you not capable of stating what you think?

M<oo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
JimT

Ship'th Mythtic
# 142

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I was deeply touched reading about Jack Chick's conversion in that it models EL18's so very closely and can even be found in his sig. I guess that explains the understandable affinity EL18 has for Chick. No wonder there is such a bond there.

quote:
While visiting Lynn’s parents in Canada on their honeymoon, Jack’s mother-in-law insisted that he sit and listen to Charles E. Fuller’s Old Fashioned Revival Hour radio program. Jack recalls, "God was already working on my heart, but when Fuller said the words, "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow," I fell on my knees and my life was changed forever."
quote:
My future mother-in-law gave me a copy of "Mere Christianity" when I started courting (fabulous old-fashioned word) my wife.

The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!


Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
FatMac

Ship's Macintosh
# 2914

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quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
So to sum up the defence. Christians criticising other Christians 'cos their theology puts people off is hypocritical.

The issue is not theology but style of evangelism. No matter what nutty stuff I believe, if I keep it to myself, I'm not harming the reputation of the church. But f'rinstance, if I decide that it would be cool to run around naked handing leaflets out entitled 'One day you too will stand naked before the Judgement Seat of the Almighty', I think I would be harming the cause of the gospel (particularly given my bod!) and a brother or sister in Christ would be fully entitled to give me a good dressing down.

quote:
The anti-Catholic stuff causes no real harm. And they're are a blinking good read and have helped at least one member of the ship.
Who says the anti-Catholic stuff causes no harm? If as I and others here maintain, it is a fabric of lies and unfounded inuendo, it again makes Christians and Christianity look bad. Remember that Jesus spoke about the 'unforgiveable sin' only once and that was in the context of the Pharisees attributing the work of God to Satan. Isn't that precisely what Chick does in his anti-Catholic tracts?

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Do not beware the slippery slope - it is where faith resides.
Do not avoid the grey areas - they are where God works.

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simon 2
Shipmate
# 1524

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Sometimes I wonder if Chick uses the idea of the pious fraud to justify printing stuff that isn't true, just so that souls can be saved.

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sorry for my spelling and bad gramma

Posts: 495 | From: in a forest | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Campbellite

Ut unum sint
# 1202

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Nah, Linzc, they're just keeping the seat warm until the Son of David returns.

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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?

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Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Eleighteen,

God is a god of truth and is worshipped in spirit and in truth. He commands us not to bear false witness against our neighbour.

It is therefore reasonable to object to the oeuvre of a man whose output appears largely to consist of slander.

That Chick tracts may have been instances of grace for some people is not a defence. Christ's Passion wouldn't have happened without Judas Iscariot.

Which part of that was difficult?

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
Old lightbulb-head quoting Matt25.41 (taken way out of context of the rest of that chapter IMO) just pointed out the stupidity of the damnation that many Christians believe in. Or rather, how I thought they believed in it. Anyway, checking up some of Chick's quotes with the Bible (1611 KJV natch') encouraged me to do the same with other "mainstream" books. Guess what? I could interpret passages quoted there entirely differently too. It wasn't exactly how they said it was. So I got over my "damnation" problem, and could concentrate on God, with the help of.... Chick Tracts.

I could say exactly the same thing about liberal politics and Rush Limbaugh; watching various friends get into his radio programme (back in my more conservative days) I checked him out and by his sheer unfairness toward his opponents, inspired me to check out what they actually said, and I found that it made more sense to me than the politically conservative side. For years, in fact, I've commented to people how Rush Limbaugh helped me become more liberal, O irony, etc.

It does not therefore follow that either Chick or Limbaugh, by being so horrid that *some* people decide to look closer at the facts and therefore reach better conclusions, is doing something good and blessed by God. Not to mention the scary number of people who are uncritically led astray by either of them.

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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I can't fully undrerstand CM's example, not being American, but I think I get the drift. In the same way I can say that Margaret Thatcher made me a socialist. That doesn't mean to say that I have any liking for the mad bitch.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
LatinMan
Shipmate
# 1892

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quote:
The anti-Catholic stuff causes no real harm.
How do you know?

I have met some people, and not unintelligent or evil people either, who believe some awfully stupid stuff.

If we changed the subject from Chick tracts to The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, and Catholics to Jews, would you still say "the anti-Jewish stuff causes no real harm"?

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Posts: 603 | From: The Marches of the Archdiocese of Chicago | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
clare
Contributing Editor
# 17

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quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
Ok... I'm trolling.. ..to an extent. There was a serious point in all of this somewhere, although it is questionable whether I have the skill to get it out.


eleighteen,

You've had a scattering of hostly advice leading to hostly warnings on this thread. You've now bagged a member administrator on your case. Take them seriously.

You've admited you were trolling. The rest of the post makes some effort to mitigate that (though will doubtless prompt further outrage due to content, but that's your look-out). This is Hell, but it's a high quality Hell. If you continue to troll, then you will be on suspension. If you desist, you may stay. Enjoy the heat.

clare.

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Member Administrator

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simon 2
Shipmate
# 1524

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The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was what I was thinking of when I posted last time, but figured it might bring around an application of Godwin's law. Some people are still using them to stir up hate, claiming that although factually inaccurate the spirit behind them is still truthful, for an example see:

http://abbc.com/islam/english/toread/pr-zion.htm

(sorry my browser is rubbish so the prev. post and url buttons dont work)

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sorry for my spelling and bad gramma

Posts: 495 | From: in a forest | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
LatinMan
Shipmate
# 1892

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quote:
Simon 2 informs us:
Some people are still using them (the Protocols) to stir up hate, claiming that although factually inaccurate the spirit behind them is still truthful...

One would be merely horrified if the people publishing excrement like the Protocols really believed they were factual. But when they admit they are publishing lies because the "spirit behind them is still truthful" that has to be pure malice.

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Posts: 603 | From: The Marches of the Archdiocese of Chicago | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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[Tangent here...]
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
<snip!> I could say exactly the same thing about liberal politics and Rush Limbaugh; watching various friends get into his radio programme (back in my more conservative days) I checked him out and by his sheer unfairness toward his opponents, inspired me to check out what they actually said, and I found that it made more sense to me than the politically conservative side. For years, in fact, I've commented to people how Rush Limbaugh helped me become more liberal, O irony, etc.

It does not therefore follow that either Chick or Limbaugh, by being so horrid that *some* people decide to look closer at the facts and therefore reach better conclusions, is doing something good and blessed by God. Not to mention the scary number of people who are uncritically led astray by either of them.

As one of the few shipmates who enjoy Rush Limbaugh's show (occasionally when I spend the night over my mom's and wake up to her blasting it), I feel this is a rather unfair comparison. I don't agree with 100% of what RL says [or of his characters mocking some of the Left] but the man is only a political entertainer and not masquerading as a religious-know-it-all.

I feel the same way you do but in an opposite way...I used to consider myself a Liberal and found myself swayed a rather similar way [not naming names here to avoid starting another tangent].

I think the comparison's a bit tad too harsh my friend.[/Tangent Over]

I think Jack Chick has helped me in a way...I found some of his accusations so incredulous that I checked them out for myself...brought them into the light, so to speak. I went to www.catholic.org and other places...talked to people and came to the scary conclusion I had more in common with my theology (scary Reformed Calivinist here] with Catholics then mainstream Protestants. (not saying I agree with Catholics on everything but I don't agree they worship Mary...that they are all not saved..etc..etc..).

In only that particular vein , Jack Chick has done some good. In the other, he has disgraced many by having a few tidy facts hiding in a boiling pot of simmering poison. [brick wall]

[A little less Fosters might help.]

[ 08. November 2002, 23:15: Message edited by: sarkycow ]

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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Well -- no offence to you meant re Limbaugh -- my position remains the same -- the people I've known who were fans of his treated him first as an alternative news source to the "liberal media" -- then they treated him as their main news source -- then they treated him as their primary source. If he said it, they took it as fact. He seemed to me to pretty much bring out the worst in them. Maybe he's changed in the last few years; but whether he sets himself up as a non-news source, many people here (not only my acquaintances) have certainly treated him as a primary source for information.

Perhaps someone could replace Limbaugh with some other source, but I think the principle still holds -- someone you believe is being terribly unfair, by their sheer (perceived) unfairness helping you see the good points you believe they are overlooking, is not necessarily doing a great thing.

Dropping Limbaugh altogether here...

If you eat something which makes you ill, and you therefore seek out better food, it doesn't mean the original toxic food was good food because it inspired you to do better. In the same way, just because someone read Chick, and because he was so twisted they sought and found a better view of Christianity, it doesn't mean Chick is doing good things.

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
If you eat something which makes you ill, and you therefore seek out better food, it doesn't mean the original toxic food was good food because it inspired you to do better. In the same way, just because someone read Chick, and because he was so twisted they sought and found a better view of Christianity, it doesn't mean Chick is doing good things.

Agreed. [Projectile]

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

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simon 2
Shipmate
# 1524

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On the site I linked to earlier there is a pre-reading page, which pretty much confirms the malice (choosing the second of Latinmans options) behind the continued publication of the Protocols.

A short extract:

"They show too deep an understanding both of Gentile weaknesses familiar to us all and of the sort of mind set which
might ruthlessly exploit them for sectarian gain. Fictional or not, they were written by
somebody who knew very well the kind of men whose utterances they supposedly report. They
express a wealth of hard-headed insight in a tone of arrogant superiority which is not
unfamiliar to us either. We cannot quarrel with the comment of Henry Ford's Dearborn
Independent - which publicized the Protocols in America around 1921 -that the work was "too
terribly real for fiction, too well-sustained for speculation, too deep in its knowledge of the
secret springs of life for forgery". "

Extract taken from: http://abbc.com/islam/english/toread/prvisit.htm

I believe it shows the hatered of one particular race and the bigotry of the author. Reading such bile, has made me want to investigate anti-fascist movements and has made me more liberal and open to critique of my faith. That does not make the Protocols or their publishers worthy of any praise.

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sorry for my spelling and bad gramma

Posts: 495 | From: in a forest | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
LatinMan
Shipmate
# 1892

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quote:
FCB sez:
On the whole comics question, I highly recommend The Picture Bible, which contains most of the narrative sections of the Bible (this is a thick volume) in comic book style. I got it for my older son a few years ago (I think he was six or seven at the time) and he's read it through several times and now knows his Bible stories better than his theology-professor father.

I looked up The Picture Bible at Amazon.com. The excerpts look like the Bible comics I remember from Boys' Life.

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Posts: 603 | From: The Marches of the Archdiocese of Chicago | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged



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