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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Lady Thatcher and State Funerals
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
...As Robert and Inger point out, it's hardly as if we generally wait for rulers to run as seriously afoul as Kim or Stalin before we speak out.
Oh, dear. Are you suggesting that Margaret Thatcher would have "run as seriously afoul as Kim or Stalin" had she had the opportunity?
quote:
...That under capitalism death is privately contracted ...
I beg your pardon? Would you care to explicate? I've somehow missed the part where giant corporations started running death camps in the US, UK, and other "capitalist" countries.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
...As Robert and Inger point out, it's hardly as if we generally wait for rulers to run as seriously afoul as Kim or Stalin before we speak out.
Oh, dear. Are you suggesting that Margaret Thatcher would have "run as seriously afoul as Kim or Stalin" had she had the opportunity?
I'm questioning the assumption that she has to. By your logic, if I'm ever charged with murder, or some other indictable offence, I can plead not guilty on the grounds that I haven't "entered Kim country"?
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
I've somehow missed the part where giant corporations started running death camps in the US, UK, and other "capitalist" countries.
You may have; plenty have not. Of course, it's easier to miss when it's not anything as dramatically satisfying as a centrally-controlled death camp. That's my point: capitalism diffuses.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
...By your logic, if I'm ever charged with murder, or some other indictable offence, I can plead not guilty on the grounds that I haven't "entered Kim country"?
What is that supposed to mean?
quote:
...it's not anything as dramatically satisfying as a centrally-controlled death camp. That's my point: capitalism diffuses.
The BBC story is the only thing here that warrants another look. We've got a report on cigarette marketing, something from a conspiracy site - and something from a a former Sandinista official who would rather make accusations than have his own regime's track record in human rights violations examined.
Margaret Thatcher was not a monster. She was not a murderer. She was lightyears from being a Kim. You just didn't like her policies. Can you see how absurd your accusations are becoming?
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
So are there any shipmates out there who are prepared to stick their necks out and say they think she should have a state funeral when in due course she does go the way of Ninevah, Tyre and Kim Jong-il. Or are we all agreed that assessing this using UK parameters and conventions, she shouldn't?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
...Or are we all agreed that assessing this using UK parameters and conventions, she shouldn't?
Agreed.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Can you see how absurd your accusations are becoming?
Since it's not altogether clear to me yet whether the accusations you attribute to me are ones I in fact care to make, I couldn't say. I certainly don't think you need to stick a knife in someone's back physically to be complicit in a wrongful death, much less to be a wicked ruler. That Baroness Thatcher has not committed felony murder may be sufficient to you to absolve her from monstrosity, but not to the "reasonable person" of legal doctrine. I think those whose livelihoods were ruined by the collapse of British manufacturing, or those who were "disappeared" by Pinochet's regime would probably say "monstrous" about sums up the legacy of her policies.
[ 27. December 2011, 18:53: Message edited by: LQ ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
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Posted
If Thatcher were given a State Funeral I would seriously consider attending a demonstration with a placard reading 'Not in my name'.
It was her government that de-regulated the UK banking system, the fruits of which were seen in the banking crisis; dealing with that has cost the taxpayer billions of pounds, resulting in the current public spending cuts, and consequential loss of thousands of jobs. So, people in the UK are still suffering the consequences of her policies.
Angus
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
... That Baroness Thatcher has not committed felony murder may be sufficient to you to absolve her from monstrosity, but not to the "reasonable person" of legal doctrine. I think those whose livelihoods were ruined by the collapse of British manufacturing, or those who were "disappeared" by Pinochet's regime would probably say "monstrous" about sums up the legacy of her policies.
Comparing Thatcher to Pinochet is ridiculous. Do you just put anyone more conservative than Gorbachev into a box marked "Evil Right-Winger"?
Socialist and Communist regimes have been responsible for more lives ruined and lost than any other belief system in the last century - and that's saying something. At least Thatcher was actually trying to help her country.
Since this is threatening to get Hellish, I will quit the discussion with one last summation of my stance:
Margaret Thatcher was a great, but seriously flawed figure. She does not, by British norms, deserve a state funeral. She does deserve the honor and respect of her compatriots for all the things she did achieve for the good.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Comparing Thatcher to Pinochet is ridiculous. Do you just put anyone more conservative than Gorbachev into a box marked "Evil Right-Winger"?
Thatcher and Pinochet were good friends and she tried very hard to protect him.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I've just checked that despite the deep anger expressed here by many (for perfectly good reasons to my mind), the f**k word has not been used once.
It seems to work differently in American and British usage.
End of digression.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
So who's just used it then, and what has it contributed?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
... That Baroness Thatcher has not committed felony murder may be sufficient to you to absolve her from monstrosity, but not to the "reasonable person" of legal doctrine. I think those whose livelihoods were ruined by the collapse of British manufacturing, or those who were "disappeared" by Pinochet's regime would probably say "monstrous" about sums up the legacy of her policies.
Comparing Thatcher to Pinochet is ridiculous. Do you just put anyone more conservative than Gorbachev into a box marked "Evil Right-Winger"?
I wasn't "comparing" her: I was pointing to an example of a result of her policies (namely, her cosy support for Pinochet) implicated in civilian deaths. Brushing it off as "ridiculous" isn't exactly a stinging retort.
Why are you so keen, for that matter, to mitigate anyone more liberal than the Kim dynasty as merely "flawed"? Those victimized by Pinochet with Thatcher's aid and comfort would differ with the "greatness" assessment. I'm not being rhetorical, either, but am genuinely surprised: I never took you for such a hawk, Ross!
Despite my perplexity, though, I'm finding this fascinating and wouldn't want it to get punted to the Inferno. Although admittedly we've come a long way from state ecclesiantical protocol.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
I was referring to the practical economics of our day, in which the hard-working, careful small business owner is allowed to fail due to the shenanigans of bloated giant corporations. The latter are allowed to misbehave and then bailed out by the taxpayers - while their CEOs and co-conspirators take home billions.
If that's what you're objecting to, you need to work out who your allies are. People who actually call themselves socialists (i.e. ken) are on your side.
Oh sure, for now.
Except once they've got rid of all the big business owners they'll get rid of all the small business owners. They won't stop until nobody owns anything and we are all utterly dependent on the State for our entire existence.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
I was referring to the practical economics of our day, in which the hard-working, careful small business owner is allowed to fail due to the shenanigans of bloated giant corporations. The latter are allowed to misbehave and then bailed out by the taxpayers - while their CEOs and co-conspirators take home billions.
If that's what you're objecting to, you need to work out who your allies are. People who actually call themselves socialists (i.e. ken) are on your side.
Oh sure, for now.
Except once they've got rid of all the big business owners they'll get rid of all the small business owners. They won't stop until nobody owns anything and we are all utterly dependent on the State for our entire existence.
Marvin, do you posess telepathy and clairvoyance? I aspire to be a socialist (as with many honourable titles, such as Christian, which I dare to apply to myself, I am mainly conscious of the many ways in which I do not live up to all it implies) and I have no desire to "get rid of all the small business owners". Nor does anyone else I know. Personally, I'm not convinced that making far fetched claims does much to advance an honest debate.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
If Thatcher were given a State Funeral I would seriously consider attending a demonstration with a placard reading 'Not in my name'.
Angus
It occurred to me that turning up, with others, and facing away from the cortege might express things appropriately. This had some small agreement from those I was with the last few days.
Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I aspire to be a socialist (as with many honourable titles, such as Christian, which I dare to apply to myself, I am mainly conscious of the many ways in which I do not live up to all it implies) and I have no desire to "get rid of all the small business owners". Nor does anyone else I know. Personally, I'm not convinced that making far fetched claims does much to advance an honest debate.
And as the son of a small business owner, dependent on small business for my support growing up, I would certainly have no such agenda. On the contrary, I've criticized some currents of socialism for lumping small business owners in with Big Bad Surplus Value Exploiters.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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St. Stephen the Stoned
Shipmate
# 9841
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Posted
I heard the WaO item on the car radio as I drove to the Northern General Hospital to visit my mother, who was on an End Of Life Care Plan. I thought for a second that Thatcher was dead, then realised that the lack of fireworks and cheering people (this is still the Peoples' Republic of South Yorkshire) made that unlikely.
I thought "if she upstages my mother...!"
For the first and last time, I wished Thatcher a long life.
Mother died on Boxing Day.
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Do you want to see Jesus or don't yer? Well shurrup then!
Posts: 518 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jul 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
I was referring to the practical economics of our day, in which the hard-working, careful small business owner is allowed to fail due to the shenanigans of bloated giant corporations. The latter are allowed to misbehave and then bailed out by the taxpayers - while their CEOs and co-conspirators take home billions.
If that's what you're objecting to, you need to work out who your allies are. People who actually call themselves socialists (i.e. ken) are on your side.
Oh sure, for now.
Except once they've got rid of all the big business owners they'll get rid of all the small business owners. They won't stop until nobody owns anything and we are all utterly dependent on the State for our entire existence.
Look who got a copy of The Road to Serfdom in his stocking, then.
Which is fair enough. Christmas is traditionally a time for far-fetched tales to make your spine tingle. As long as you remember that that's all they are.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Except once they've got rid of all the big business owners they'll get rid of all the small business owners.
Big business is usually the worst enemy of small business.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
She was the leader of your government for a pretty formative period.
You got that one wrong, Yank. She wasn't the leader of MY government. She was the leader of HER MAJESTY'S Government, and even at her most popular she never commanded the majority of the votes cast in any election, so even in that sense she wasn't the leader of MY government either.
I didn't vote for her, and never would, and neither would I ever vote for any member of the political party she represented, which I consider to be inherently selfish, greedy, divisive, and fundamentally non-Christian. As was Thatcher.
At least she hasn't used her retirement as a period for pure cash generation like a recent prime-minister I could mention. That man would qualify for a double first with bar and oak leaves in Greed.
She also left the economy in a better state then when she came to power although undoubtedly there were mistakes made in that period.
But really I doubt whether Mrs Thatcher or her family would contemplate a state funeral which like the Olympics would be just another excuse for wasting taxpayers' money. A private subscription to place her statue in Trafalgar Square might be more fitting.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Stephen the Stoned:
I heard the WaO item on the car radio as I drove to the Northern General Hospital to visit my mother, who was on an End Of Life Care Plan. I thought for a second that Thatcher was dead, then realised that the lack of fireworks and cheering people (this is still the Peoples' Republic of South Yorkshire) made that unlikely.
I thought "if she upstages my mother...!"
For the first and last time, I wished Thatcher a long life.
Mother died on Boxing Day.
Sorry about your mum but honestly - seeing what was done to the Fitzwilliam-Wentworth Estate in South Yorkshire (strip-mining one of the most beautiful places in Yorkshire by the Coal Board) I wonder it isn't called the Stupid Republic of South Yorkshire.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Except once they've got rid of all the big business owners they'll get rid of all the small business owners.
Big business is usually the worst enemy of small business.
Here in Australia, at least, trade unions don't much mind big business, with which they can "negotiate" deals, but utterly loathe the vast mass of small business people, particularly independent tradespeople (such as a plumber who sets up for themself and employs a few workers) because they can't be collectivised and controlled through some central body.
[ 28. December 2011, 19:46: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I aspire to be a socialist and I have no desire to "get rid of all the small business owners". Nor does anyone else I know.
Not right now, no. Because there are bigger business owners to destroy.
But once those bigger heads have all rolled, the ones who are smaller now will suddenly be the biggest. And the whole cycle will start again.
Until everyone is exactly equal there will always be a richest 10% and a poorest 10% of society. And that means there will always be socialists who want to destroy the former in order to build up the latter. There will always be new targets, and sooner or later they will include you and me.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Marvin, have you ever asked yourself who wants you to believe that?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
It's my own conjecture based on the known facts. I'm well aware that big business is evil, but if the only way to keep what I've got is to let those bastards keep what they've got as well then so be it.
If I could trust socialists to destroy big business then stop and leave the rest of us alone then I'd have far less of a problem with them. But I don't. I have no doubt that sooner or later they'll come after my posessions as well.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Except once they've got rid of all the big business owners they'll get rid of all the small business owners.
Big business is usually the worst enemy of small business.
Here in Australia, at least, trade unions don't much mind big business, with which they can "negotiate" deals, but utterly loathe the vast mass of small business people, particularly independent tradespeople (such as a plumber who sets up for themself and employs a few workers) because they can't be collectivised and controlled through some central body.
AIUI, the kind of managerialist left that's the most prominent form of leftism at the moment - the kind that takes a basically capitalist system and then tries to make it look more like socialism by means of centrally-imposed rules and regulations - tends, in practice, to favour big businesses over small, because big businesses have the capital and resources to implement more easily the regulations that are imposed on them.
(Of course ken would probably deny that the managerial-left is really left-wing at all.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Marvin, have you ever asked yourself who wants you to believe that?
Yes - the Evil Capitalist and Imperialist Cake-Maker - Mr Kipling.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's my own conjecture based on the known facts.
Ok, would have posted this earlier but have been away for a few days. Marvin, please give concrete and verifiable examples of actions by or arguments from major socialist or social democratic governments, parties, party leaders, or thinkers in Western Europe, the Antipodes or North America since 1945, which constitute these 'known facts'*.
* By 'thinkers' I mean people of the stature of, I suppose, Anthony Crosland in the UK. If you're citing things which might be seen as having primarily a symbolic importance (e.g. the old Labour Party Clause IV), please show how they were translated into actual lasting policy proposals.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
No, sod it, scrub that last message- I'm sure Marvin and I have both got better things to do than pursue this.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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