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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Balfour Declaration
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
When Israel gets nuked I'm sure Turkey, as the regional superpower for the next thousand years and ten, will pick up the pieces.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The position that Israel is on stolen land, regardless of support via history and conflict isn't one that leads anywhere. Israel exists, it controls some substantial additional lands and will continue to do so and will continue to exist. If and when a Palestinian state is created, terror organizations may not govern it or have governance roles (eg Hamas, Hezbollah), it must be an Israeli ally, and will probably also require land from Jordan and Syria, and clear recognition from Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Libya etc. Jordan is more or less a Palestinian state already. Right of return is probably going to be sorely limited. Perhaps some compensation at most.
The cynical me thinks that not having peace is in the interests of America, Europe, Saudi, others because then resources in the area might be exported via rules versus conquest, corrupt profiteering and corporate-military control. And the standards of living and education might rise, severely impacting on western hegemony. Chaos and deaths serving economies in the West which without would be permanently recessionary. Which is foundational to social levelling or revolution if economic fairness doesn't occur.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Actually, it is possible. And our friends the Ottomans showed how it is to be done. As an excellent example, one has the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, where Abdulmecid I in 1853 assigned and confirmed different bits of the shrine to different churches and religious orders. As it is, there are delineations of the Dome of the Rock and the Wall. All that has to be done is for the differing parties to maintain that distinction. Easier said than done, but it is theoretically possible, and an example exists.
No. We don't live in the 19 century. The aspirations for Jews in Israel to have a rebuilt temple on the site of the Al Aqsa compound are much more heightened than they were in Ottoman times.
This is quite a ridiculous point to make.
quote:
And if there are two states, one city (Jerusalem) could be an agreed capital for both of them, either through division of the city, or an overlay of jurisdiction. Both of these could easily be part of a settlement if the parties choose.
You are arguing both with the basics of Israeli law and repeatedly expressed Palestinian policy.
If it was as simple as just getting everyone to sit around hold hands and sing Kumbaya, maybe just maybe all those people who have tried to find a middle ground might have been able to find a middle ground.
They can't because there is no middle ground. Israel controls Jersualem, it is never ever ever going to give it up. It says so in the most basic of their laws.
quote:
I'm not sure if apologizing for the Balfour declaration is more than a shibboleth. Were I Palestinian, I would be keener on seeing a desire on seeking justice and fairness for all residents on the part of my interlocutor.
Any notion of justice requires Israel as the more powerful power in the region giving stuff up. And it isn't happening.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye, when the US, Russia, China, Turkey, Burma, Spain, England do, Israel can follow.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The position that Israel is on stolen land, regardless of support via history and conflict isn't one that leads anywhere. Israel exists, it controls some substantial additional lands and will continue to do so and will continue to exist.
I think you'll find that a majority of Palestinians actually agree that lands lost from pre-1948 Palestine are indeed lost.
But as I said earlier, there is a whole lot of other uncertainty about the lands taken post-1948, those taken in 1967 and those taken since - particularly given the UN partition plan (which, by allocating nearly 50% of the land to Palestinians was undoubtedly far fairer than any suggestion since or the current situation on the ground).
What is fairness when one party lives in luxury when another cannot even visit relatives in a neighbouring village? Where one has access to the world and the other doesn't even have access to reliable sanitation?
quote:
If and when a Palestinian state is created, terror organizations may not govern it or have governance roles (eg Hamas, Hezbollah), it must be an Israeli ally, and will probably also require land from Jordan and Syria, and clear recognition from Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Libya etc. Jordan is more or less a Palestinian state already. Right of return is probably going to be sorely limited. Perhaps some compensation at most.
Riiight. Explain to me why all these other places need to give land. Jordan is on the other side of the river from the West Bank, Syria is miles away from the West Bank and unconnected to Gaza.
quote:
The cynical me thinks that not having peace is in the interests of America, Europe, Saudi, others because then resources in the area might be exported via rules versus conquest, corrupt profiteering and corporate-military control. And the standards of living and education might rise, severely impacting on western hegemony. Chaos and deaths serving economies in the West which without would be permanently recessionary. Which is foundational to social levelling or revolution if economic fairness doesn't occur.
I don't think so. The reason it is not tractable is because it is an intractable problem. There is no way out of this mess because the passions - particularly religious passions - are so strong in equal and opposite directions.
The USA arguably makes the problem worse with giving money and military assistance to Israel, but I think there is an argument which has traction that if they hadn't the Jews would have been massacred years ago.
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arse
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Actually, it is possible. And our friends the Ottomans showed how it is to be done. As an excellent example, one has the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, where Abdulmecid I in 1853 assigned and confirmed different bits of the shrine to different churches and religious orders. As it is, there are delineations of the Dome of the Rock and the Wall. All that has to be done is for the differing parties to maintain that distinction. Easier said than done, but it is theoretically possible, and an example exists.
No. We don't live in the 19 century. The aspirations for Jews in Israel to have a rebuilt temple on the site of the Al Aqsa compound are much more heightened than they were in Ottoman times.
This is quite a ridiculous point to make.
quote:
And if there are two states, one city (Jerusalem) could be an agreed capital for both of them, either through division of the city, or an overlay of jurisdiction. Both of these could easily be part of a settlement if the parties choose.
You are arguing both with the basics of Israeli law and repeatedly expressed Palestinian policy.
If it was as simple as just getting everyone to sit around hold hands and sing Kumbaya, maybe just maybe all those people who have tried to find a middle ground might have been able to find a middle ground.
They can't because there is no middle ground. Israel controls Jersualem, it is never ever ever going to give it up. It says so in the most basic of their laws.
quote:
I'm not sure if apologizing for the Balfour declaration is more than a shibboleth. Were I Palestinian, I would be keener on seeing a desire on seeking justice and fairness for all residents on the part of my interlocutor.
Any notion of justice requires Israel as the more powerful power in the region giving stuff up. And it isn't happening.
First, there's a sizeable population of secular or moderate Jews who are not fixated on a new temple.
Second, I know what the current positions are. I also lived in Ireland during the Troubles and saw the firmness (mild word) with which irreducible and unalterable positions were held. I also saw what I never thought possible, that these positions were a lot more flexible than thought. If, in the Dublin of 1975, one had projected a vision of the future where Martin McGuinness would be shaking hands with the Queen, one would have been dismissed as a ridiculous fool.
What is required is the political will to make these decisions. It's clear that it is lacking on the part of the two parties and, at the moment, equally clear that the "great powers" are not really focussed on pushing the parties to it. The barriers to peace and a modus vivendi are incredibly great- but we have seen that it is possible to transcend inevitability.
I merely pointed out the possibility. I don't think that this is a ridiculous point, but clearly we differ.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
There is no possibility. None. Absolutely none.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
First, there's a sizeable population of secular or moderate Jews who are not fixated on a new temple.
Doesn't matter. The hardliners are in government. Netanjahu recently: "“We will never return to that situation” of the city divided, he pledged. “The Temple Mount and the Western Wall will forever remain under Israeli sovereignty"
quote:
Second, I know what the current positions are. I also lived in Ireland during the Troubles and saw the firmness (mild word) with which irreducible and unalterable positions were held. I also saw what I never thought possible, that these positions were a lot more flexible than thought. If, in the Dublin of 1975, one had projected a vision of the future where Martin McGuinness would be shaking hands with the Queen, one would have been dismissed as a ridiculous fool.
With respect, miracles happened in NI. But it is going to require a lot more than that in Israel/Palestine. The scale and size of the problem is completely different.
quote:
What is required is the political will to make these decisions. It's clear that it is lacking on the part of the two parties and, at the moment, equally clear that the "great powers" are not really focussed on pushing the parties to it. The barriers to peace and a modus vivendi are incredibly great- but we have seen that it is possible to transcend inevitability.
Nope, this is not a political problem. That's the mistake that is being made over and over again. It is a religious problem. And one that cannot ever be resolved.
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I merely pointed out the possibility. I don't think that this is a ridiculous point, but clearly we differ.
There is no possibility. Not happening.
On a small local and individual level Palestinians and Israelis have been able to make some headway, but that is never going to get far when one side is protecting their privilege with overwhelming military force.
[ 26. October 2017, 14:13: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Alas Mr Cheesy you and I will differ on two essential perspectives.
First, a political position (you quote that dreadful Netanyahu man) is never immutable. He may change his mind. He may be defeated or replaced, and the next PM may have a different position. Netanyahu may wish that his words were as the laws of the Medes, but they're not.
The Israeli constitution's documents (the various Basic Laws) are amendable. I've checked. The Jerusalem Law has been amended already. It can be again.
Second, religious positions are political. This one is a very good example. In my own lifetime I have seen the eternal word of the prophet Joseph Smith overturned by a vote of the Council of the Presidency to avoid a series of political and programme problems for Mormonism.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Alas Mr Cheesy you and I will differ on two essential perspectives.
First, a political position (you quote that dreadful Netanyahu man) is never immutable. He may change his mind. He may be defeated or replaced, and the next PM may have a different position. Netanyahu may wish that his words were as the laws of the Medes, but they're not.
Yeah. It is easy to say this from a distance. Try going there and see how far your words get you. I did - and I can tell you it wasn't far.
quote:
The Israeli constitution's documents (the various Basic Laws) are amendable. I've checked. The Jerusalem Law has been amended already. It can be again.
They're the basic aspirations and understanding of what it means to be the state of Israel. The status of Jerusalem as capital is there on the first page.
Giving up Jerusalem, even to the extent of giving up part of it so that can be a Palestinian capital (which, incidentally isn't going to happen because the bit that Palestinians want is the Old City) means giving up what it means to be Israeli. Simple as that.
quote:
Second, religious positions are political. This one is a very good example. In my own lifetime I have seen the eternal word of the prophet Joseph Smith overturned by a vote of the Council of the Presidency to avoid a series of political and programme problems for Mormonism.
Sigh. Many have gone to Israel/Palestine thinking that they know this and that they uniquely have a solution which everyone just needs to accept. They've all failed.
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arse
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I keep thinking about the comparison with Ireland, which has some negative points of interest. For example, in the Troubles, the loyalists are UK patriots (on steroids), and the nationalists and Republicans looked partly to the Republic, and the latter to some kind of idealized Republic (hope I'm not offending anyone).
So both sides come out of a kind of historical root, and this gives them a kind of solidity. Hence, I would say, they can't be defeated.
OK, you could say that the Palestinians get sustenance from Arab nationalism, and some militant groups, but it has become very thin fare indeed. They are basically on their own, while Israel is helped by the US. Who would you pick as a winner? Hence, the slow motion ethnic cleansing and land grab.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Nope, this is not a political problem. That's the mistake that is being made over and over again. It is a religious problem. And one that cannot ever be resolved.
Al the intractable bastards in this are religious?
It is a political problem.
It is a social problem.
Religious problem? Without the first two factors, this one wouldn't have the traction.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The USA arguably makes the problem worse with giving money and military assistance to Israel, but I think there is an argument which has traction that if they hadn't the Jews would have been massacred years ago.
You might enjoy Michael Chabon's "Yiddish Policemen's Union". The Jews were defeated in 1948, relocated to Alaska.
Isn't the USA funding to Israel while also funding surrounding countries the classic divide and conquer so you can economically exploit?
Is Jordan part of Palestine? historically?
Could Golan and some parts of Syria also ever be part of an Israeli-allied Palestine in addition to some pieces of Jordan? Maybe also some pieces of Lebanon and Egypt? Why or why not?
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Al the intractable bastards in this are religious?
It is a political problem.
It is a social problem.
Religious problem? Without the first two factors, this one wouldn't have the traction.
No, that's true. In the past when Jews had no political power and when there wasn't a resurgence of the socio-religious understanding amongst many Jews - then there weren't many who believed that the direction of their lives led them to want to build on temple mount and live in Samaria.
But in the current situation where there is the political support for the idea and there is the social support for settlers who think it is part of their identity as Jews to live in the land, then the conflict becomes primarily a religious one.
If those political and social conditions were not present, I doubt that those who wanted to continue with the aspirations for a Temple on Temple Mount and to populate Samaria would have a lot of sway. Even within Israel.
But in the current era it is unthinkable to imagine an Israel where those things are not an aspiration for a powerful sector of the society and it is essentially impossible to now row back from that position.
In terms of the Palestinians - and other Arabs in the region - I highly suspect that Jersualem wouldn't be a major issue if the Jews didn't want it. There is a level of intransigence and religious one-up-manship. But then that's kind-of understandable given that Islam has that element within it (ie it is believed that Islam is superior to all the religious ideas that went before etc).
But given where we are today, and given the strong positions that both Palestinian and Islamic leaders have made with regard to Al Asqa - and Jerusalem - it is now impossible to imagine them throwing up their hands and saying "pah, doesn't really matter, we have other holy sites after all".
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
You might enjoy Michael Chabon's "Yiddish Policemen's Union". The Jews were defeated in 1948, relocated to Alaska.
Of course, it has been said that Israel was nearly created in South America or Africa and elsewhere. In the end the attraction of creating a Jewish homeland surrounding Jerusalem was too great, despite the obstacles.
quote:
Isn't the USA funding to Israel while also funding surrounding countries the classic divide and conquer so you can economically exploit?
Mmm. Well if memory serves, a lot of USA military financial support goes to Egypt. Which has had an uncomfortable relationship with Israel but is currently on relatively good terms. I'm not sure how much goes into Jordan, but I suspect much less than to Israel or Egypt. Otherwise the next nearest are Lebanon and Syria. I don't think either receive direct military payments in the way that Israel and Egypt do.
So no, not really. I don't think this is divide and conquer. Or at least not in terms of military aid anyway.
quote:
Is Jordan part of Palestine? historically?
It depends what you mean and how far you go back. But from 1920s to 1940s Jordan was the Emirate of Transjordan. Which was separate from British mandate Palestine.
But then Jordanian forces annexed the West Bank between 1948 and 1967 when the Israeli military forced them out.
There are a lot of Palestinians in Jordan, but I think it is a stretch to claim that Jordan=Palestine.
quote:
Could Golan and some parts of Syria also ever be part of an Israeli-allied Palestine in addition to some pieces of Jordan? Maybe also some pieces of Lebanon and Egypt? Why or why not?
Geographically that would be difficult, because they're not in the same place. I'm not clear why you think that the Golan is relevant. Similarly with Lebanon and Egypt: neither are really nearby, although Egypt borders with Gaza.
But even if there was some way to do this, it would be a pretty shitty thing to do. The part of Egypt bordering Gaza and Israel is mostly desert. The Golan Heights aren't really that good land.
It'd be like taking someone's relatively good land and in exchange giving them something far away that was shit.
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arse
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
mr cheesy quote:
Nope, this is not a political problem. That's the mistake that is being made over and over again. It is a religious problem. And one that cannot ever be resolved.
Nope.
Zionism is secular rather than religious in origin. Indeed, for non-religious Jews it has become a political substitute for belief.
Palestinian Nationalism was an expression of Arab Nationalism, which was secular and included Christians along with other ethnic minorities amongst its leadership.
Islam was used by the enemies of Arab (and Iranian) Nationalism: Israel, the Western Powers, and traditional Arab rulers in the Gulf, to divide the popular base of Arab Nationalism. This attempt was largely successful, though it led to the rise of the Ayatollahs in Iran, and has assisted the destabilisation of the Middle East generally. The debilitation of Arab Nationalism has severely undermined the religiously pluralistic inheritance of the Ottoman Empire. Religion was not the cause of the conflicts but has been mobilised by various interested parties with devastating consequences. Western interests must bear a large share of the blame for the emergence of militant Islam. (Similar tactics were used by the West in response to the Soviet innovations of Afghanistan).
Israel has clearly benefitted from such developments. On the other hand, the level of political instability in the region which has helped it thus far might not prove so advantageous in the future. Mind you, it may not help the Palestinians either.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
mr cheesy quote:
Nope, this is not a political problem. That's the mistake that is being made over and over again. It is a religious problem. And one that cannot ever be resolved.
Nope.
Zionism is secular rather than religious in origin. Indeed, for non-religious Jews it has become a political substitute for belief.
Palestinian Nationalism was an expression of Arab Nationalism, which was secular and included Christians along with other ethnic minorities amongst its leadership.
Not so sure about Zionism but that is so for Arab Nationalism, which certainly encompasses Arab Christians (I have family connections out there). Many founders of The Arab League were Christians but they have either left or thrown in their lot with Islam, feeling that Christianity has deserted them.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Zionism is secular rather than religious in origin. Indeed, for non-religious Jews it has become a political substitute for belief.
Palestinian Nationalism was an expression of Arab Nationalism, which was secular and included Christians along with other ethnic minorities amongst its leadership.
The key concept is "in origin". Whatever Zionism and Palestinian Nationalism were originally, they've now coalesced around a religious identity.
Largely because the majority of Palestinian Christians have left and the secular Jewish Israelis have been silenced.
There are various other groups, of course, but the unresolvable Jerusalem power struggle is between Jews and Muslims.
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arse
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
5000 women from both Israel and Palestine met in the desert near Jericho earlier this month. The Peace Camp of Hagar and Sarah we called it. Meeting the "sheep of the other flocks"; dancing, singing, praying (yep, a multi-faith prayer with everyone holding hands) ... women waging peace
That evening 30000 women marched and sang through the City of Jerusalem
Didn't hear the Balfour Declaration mentioned even once.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
5000 men will never do that.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
5000 men can't be trusted to remember to pack lunch.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
LOL!
I'll see your self deprecating sexism and raise it.
Ten, a hundred times that number of women wouldn't make any difference.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Galilit--
Way cool! Girl power! May there be all sorts of wonderful ripple effects, large and small.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Martin--
There's more than one way to make a difference, and more than one kind of difference to be made.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Funny how we rarely hear about the positive stuff.
Do they call you Cheesy Stormcrow down the pub Mr. C?
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Ten, a hundred times that number of women wouldn't make any difference.
It made a difference to THIS woman...and every other woman there.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Well said Galilit. That was my unspoken come back as I wrote my monochrome response.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
5000 men can't be trusted to remember to pack lunch.
...that might explain a whole lot about history...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Zionism is secular rather than religious in origin. Indeed, for non-religious Jews it has become a political substitute for belief.
It is secular in origin, and perhaps it's incorrect to attribute to it the 'Theology of the Land' that has purchase among the most religious. However, things have certainly moved on since the day when the most religious saw the state of Israel as a largely secular entity.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Zionism is secular rather than religious in origin. Indeed, for non-religious Jews it has become a political substitute for belief.
It is secular in origin, and perhaps it's incorrect to attribute to it the 'Theology of the Land' that has purchase among the most religious. However, things have certainly moved on since the day when the most religious saw the state of Israel as a largely secular entity.
And the support for it from some segments of evangelicalism is absolutely and completely religious in origin. I've had people on my Bookface who tell me anyone who doesn't "support Israel" is going to get it hot in the afterlife.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I've had people on my Bookface who tell me anyone who doesn't "support Israel" is going to get it hot in the afterlife.
Now I need to know what a "Bookface" is. Just a reordering of the words in facebook or something else?
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arse
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I like the IT Crowd's Face Friends
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Human
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
It would seem that contributors to this post agree with me that though Zionism might have been secular in origin it is less so now that it was. I do, however, wish to contend that any increase or decrease of religious zeal in Israel explains little about Israeli policy since the creation of the state by secular Jews:
In my view the course of Israel’s history was set by its foundation as an independent state supported by the United States at the expense of dispossessed Palestinians. Its strategic vulnerability to Arab hostility made it necessary for the new state to improve its military capacity to defend itself against hostile neighbours, to expand its borders, and increase its population by attracting ethnically Jewish immigrants, thereby necessitating further expansion into the West Bank. Unwilling to permit the creation of a Palestinian state or to grant citizenship rights to the Palestinians, both of which threatened to undermine Jewish dominance, the Israelis created Palestinian Bantustans in the West Bank and Gaza. These developments, rhetoric apart, have been characteristics of both left and right governments in Israel because they have been dictated by the imperatives of national survival. None of this has had anything to do with religion, because even if all the Israeli Jews were atheists the political parameters dictating policy would not have been different. If religion is a dimension then it relates to the capacity of the Israelis to mobilise support in the USA Bible Belt to underpin congressional support.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
These developments, rhetoric apart, have been characteristics of both left and right governments in Israel because they have been dictated by the imperatives of national survival. None of this has had anything to do with religion, because even if all the Israeli Jews were atheists the political parameters dictating policy would not have been different.
I think that what some are arguing in this thread is that at this moment in time even if national survival was no longer an issue - the politics are unlikely to change because they are *now* driven by religious reasoning.
So the question is not so much whether Israel might have ended up in the same geopolitical situation via other means, as much as whether the current religious motivations of parts of its population makes it less likely that a political settlement could be achieved.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
/tangent
The Jewish National Homeland really should have been established in upstate New York (ie, the Catskills).
tangent/
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
I think there's a novel that has it in Alaska.
Catskills might work, though. All the Borscht Belt resorts and their comedy shows! (Primarily for Jewish folks, with Jewish comedians.)
On "Big Bang Theory", Sheldon wanted to put it somewhere in the American Southwest. New Mexico, maybe?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I think there's a novel that has it in Alaska.
How about have a read just up a bit? Michael Chabon "Yiddish Policeman's Union".
Jewish Autonomous Oblast in the far east of Russia, which isn't a fantasy, it actually exists.
But couldn't we move the Palestinians instead. Perhaps evacuate everyone to Jordan? Or maybe they could move to the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, renamed Palestinian Autonomous Oblast. Or maybe rich Saudi Arabia, or dispersed among the Persian Gulf states.
Doesn't it make better sense to move them than the Israelis just now?
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
np--
Sorry, I missed that first reference. Thanks for the second link.
At this point, I don't think moving either group would work. For various reasons, they're all deeply attached to that land.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
np--
Sorry, I missed that first reference. Thanks for the second link.
At this point, I don't think moving either group would work. For various reasons, they're all deeply attached to that land.
Re Jordan:
There are many Palestinians already there. Even the wife of the current king is Palestinian. But I think I heard that the situation of having the Palestinians there isn't always happy.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
How about have a read just up a bit? Michael Chabon "Yiddish Policeman's Union".
Jewish Autonomous Oblast in the far east of Russia, which isn't a fantasy, it actually exists.
But couldn't we move the Palestinians instead. Perhaps evacuate everyone to Jordan? Or maybe they could move to the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, renamed Palestinian Autonomous Oblast. Or maybe rich Saudi Arabia, or dispersed among the Persian Gulf states.
Doesn't it make better sense to move them than the Israelis just now?
Yebbut, that's the point. Theory doesn't cap identity. Neither Alaska nor an obscure bit of eastern Siberia was ever going to do. Having returned to the Promised Land twice, and kept the memory alive of the place the Romans evicted them from for all these centuries, it has to be the same place they hungered to return to for the third, and they hope, final time. Only that bit of land would do. Even without the traumas of Jewish history and persecution, anywhere else would still just be a bed for the night.
Palestinian identity is actually fairly new, created by current tensions. Before 1918, the people who lived there were just subjects of the Turkish sultan who happened to live on or inland from part of the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean. As an identity, it was only created by their finding themselves in the bit that didn't become any of the other bits. But the people themselves, are the same people as were subjects of the Turks before. Why should they go and live in a cold, dismal and unproductive part of the Russian Far East, or Alaska for that matter (also cold, dismal and unproductive, though probably more scenic)?
If somebody told you it would be more convenient for everybody of you upped sticks, quit Canada and go to either the Russian Far East or Alaska - or for that matter Uganda or Paraguay which I think were also suggested as possible homelands at various times - how would you feel about it?
That's why the problem is intractable. Both sides are right, but neither of them is going about pursuing their cause in ways that wins friends and influences people, yet alone that anyone else can unequivocally support.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Spot on Kwesi. And nobody is going anywhere, apart from powerful Jews on to powerless Arabs' land.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
With the current racist news from Poland, some interesting details impactful on this were reported. Poland expelled 20,000 Jews in 1968. In 1948 the surrounding countries (Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Morocco, Syria, Yemen, Saudi) expelled at least one million Jews from places where they'd lived for at least as long as Palestinians in Israel. Number probably higher.
The eliminationist wars of 1948, 1967, 1973. The Palestinian negotiation of a settlement in 2000-2001 to create an independent Palestinian state, then walking away from it. It included shared control of Jerusalem, land swaps, and what was thought to be everything a final settlement should contain. Instead the Second Intifada was unleashed. It's as if the very idea of accommodation to Israel was the problem. Perhaps Palestinians Do not want peace? Or perhaps surrounding countries are concerned about democracy spreading to their dictatorships?
[ 13. November 2017, 16:14: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
no..., those were all inevitable effects of the cause of the UN mandated Jewish state forced upon Arab lands. The effects don't justify the cause.
[ 13. November 2017, 22:45: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
no..., those were all inevitable effects of the cause of the UN mandated Jewish state forced upon Arab lands. The effects don't justify the cause.
What Arab lands? The Mandate indicated shared lands. The UN. One group gets this, the other gets that. But no-one wants to share with Jews. And worries that Israel violates human rights, holding Israelis to a standard of behaviour different than their neighbours. Very odd. Query anti-Semitic.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I beg your pardon?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
The UN recommendation was partition. There is a book on Canada's involvement at the UN debate by David Bercuson called Canada and the Birth of Israel.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Partition isn't the same as sharing. It's giving one bit of land to one group and another bit of land to another. Sharing would be both groups having equal rights within the same bit of land.
But, partition or shared, I'm not seeing how the actions of other states in expelling Jews from their territory could be justified by the existence of the state of Israel.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Neither do I. But it was absolutely inevitable and fully calculated.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
The question of a federal state was discussed by UNSCOP and only supported by a minority of states.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Is it not so that partition needed to occur because otherwise the Jews were at risk from majoritarian Arab - Muslim populations?
Exchange of populations. Some people have to leave one area and live in another, and then deal with it. This appears reasonably common. What's so special about this situation?
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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