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Source: (consider it) Thread: Christmas music - oxymoron
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Your coding and spelling is enough to make the Infant Jesus cry.

And me - am recocering from a stroke and have lost dexterity

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Your coding and spelling is enough to make the Infant Jesus cry.

And me - am recocering from a stroke and have lost dexterity
I have two simultaneous responses:

Firstly, I'm incredibly sorry to hear that. I genuinely hope that you make a full and speedy recovery.

Secondly, Preview Post is even more your friend than it is for the rest of the cockwombles down here in the Infernal Regions, who don't have anywhere near the same excuse as you do for shabby coding and the like.

--------------------
Get your arse to Mars

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Your coding and spelling is enough to make the Infant Jesus cry.

He is equally distressed by subject/verb disagreement.

[ 17. December 2016, 16:43: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Depends if you consider "coding and spelling" to be one function, or two.

Also, everyone hates a grammar Nazi.

--------------------
Get your arse to Mars

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Depends if you consider "coding and spelling" to be one function, or two.

Also, everyone hates a grammar Nazi.

But not a coding and spelling Nazi hypocrite? Sure.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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I'm going to do the hand-wringing liberal bit, so I expect brickbats to be launched at my retreating form.

The simple fact is that no-one wins in this situation. Real benefit, from the skill of the bell-ringer, is lost to prevent potential worse loss, in the form of abuse. The question is therefore how close to reality that abuse is, and whether that is close enough to cancel out the real gain from their skill.

Providing that the dean and chapter are not being so utterly preoccupied with the potential loss of reputation to the Minster that they are deaf to all other considerations, I suppose one has reluctantly to trust their judgement because they are there, and I am aware of the Dean's potential for great humanity. Providing bureaucratic process is not being enshrined here as the ultimate good, all is probably as close to well as it can be. I am just very conscious that our child protection laws are where they are in part because of two or three reviews carried out by bureaucrats which, with a depressing inevitability, created increasingly heavy bureaucratic structures as cures for all ills.

Everyone involved in this situation is a human being, and therefore fundamentally equal in the sight and love of God. All involved in this situation are, I believe, called to act in obedience to that love without the arrogance of believing themselves exclusively to embody the divine. As such, some level of process is required in the absence of the perfect knowledge which alone can justify complete freedom of action.

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Depends if you consider "coding and spelling" to be one function, or two.

Also, everyone hates a grammar Nazi.

But not a coding and spelling Nazi hypocrite? Sure.
Coding is either right or wrong. If I can see unmatched tags, you're doing it wrong.

Spelling is more regional. I don't care if you write 'colour' or 'color'. Both are acceptable variants of English. And since one of my functions here is to make sure that people post in intelligible English, yes, mostly correct spelling most of the time is a necessary requirement for all Shipmates.

So a gentle, humorous reminder to a Shipmate to possibly remember to use Preview Post (and especially in the circumstances which we're now subsequently aware of) is taken by you as an excuse to swing your dick. Well done.

Fuckwit.

--------------------
Get your arse to Mars

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Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I'm going to do the hand-wringing liberal bit, so I expect brickbats to be launched at my retreating form.

The simple fact is that no-one wins in this situation. Real benefit, from the skill of the bell-ringer, is lost to prevent potential worse loss, in the form of abuse. The question is therefore how close to reality that abuse is, and whether that is close enough to cancel out the real gain from their skill.

Providing that the dean and chapter are not being so utterly preoccupied with the potential loss of reputation to the Minster that they are deaf to all other considerations, I suppose one has reluctantly to trust their judgement because they are there, and I am aware of the Dean's potential for great humanity. Providing bureaucratic process is not being enshrined here as the ultimate good, all is probably as close to well as it can be. I am just very conscious that our child protection laws are where they are in part because of two or three reviews carried out by bureaucrats which, with a depressing inevitability, created increasingly heavy bureaucratic structures as cures for all ills.

Everyone involved in this situation is a human being, and therefore fundamentally equal in the sight and love of God. All involved in this situation are, I believe, called to act in obedience to that love without the arrogance of believing themselves exclusively to embody the divine. As such, some level of process is required in the absence of the perfect knowledge which alone can justify complete freedom of action.

[Confused]

--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Your coding and spelling is enough to make the Infant Jesus cry.

And me - am recocering from a stroke and have lost dexterity
I echo what Doc Tor said and wish you a full recovery.

What was your excuse for crap coding for all those years you posted in the Ship before you had a stroke.

--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So a gentle, humorous reminder to a Shipmate to possibly remember to use Preview Post (and especially in the circumstances which we're now subsequently aware of) is taken by you as an excuse to swing your dick. Well done.

Fuckwit.

Oh please. You thwack somebody for something (imperfect post) you are too thin-skinned to accept getting thwacked for yourself. Crybaby.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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(hangs head in shame)

WRONG THREAD!!!!

If hellhosts had better natures, I would appeal. As it is, I can only light a small candle of hope that it might magically end up in the right place. Might make an iota more sense.

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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(*also hangs head in shame*)

I didn't even notice. Missed a prime taunting moment, dammit.

--------------------
Get your arse to Mars

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So a gentle, humorous reminder to a Shipmate to possibly remember to use Preview Post (and especially in the circumstances which we're now subsequently aware of) is taken by you as an excuse to swing your dick. Well done.

Fuckwit.

Oh please. You thwack somebody for something (imperfect post) you are too thin-skinned to accept getting thwacked for yourself. Crybaby.
Uh huh. Whatever makes you sleep better.

--------------------
Get your arse to Mars

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Piglet
Islander
# 11803

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
This is my absolute favorite comprehensive evaluation of Christmas songs. I'm generally in agreement with his opinions on these, surprisingly.

One hopes you are not the sophist windbag he appears to be.
He's not just a sophist wind-bag; if he thinks that Lo, how a rose e'er blooming is a
quote:
"Really good, pleasantly staid Old English (my italics) carol",
he probably shouldn't be writing about carols.

For myself, if I never hear O holy night, Silent Night or anything by Frank Sinatra or Bing Crosby ever again, it'll be too soon.

[ 18. December 2016, 15:58: Message edited by: Piglet ]

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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leo
Shipmate
# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Preview Post is even more your friend than it is for the rest of the cockwombles down here in the Infernal Regions, who don't have anywhere near the same excuse as you do for shabby coding and the like.

I also have my vision impaired.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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leo
Shipmate
# 1458

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We had this rubbish this morning:

"This is the truth sent from above,

"Woman was made with man to dwell."
So what about singles? widows, lesbians – are women solely defined by their husbands?

"And they did eat, which was a sin,
And thus their ruin did begin.
Ruined themselves, both you and me,
And all of their posterity. "
A literal Adam and Eve

"Thus we were heirs to endless woes,"
All the world’s problems down to one apple?

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23019 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

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But it's traditional.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Preview Post is even more your friend than it is for the rest of the cockwombles down here in the Infernal Regions, who don't have anywhere near the same excuse as you do for shabby coding and the like.

I also have my vision impaired.
CTRL+ makes things bigger so you can see them. I appreciate the difficulty: however, the smooth running of the board, and the legibility of everyone's posts, is my concern.

--------------------
Get your arse to Mars

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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We had this rubbish this morning:

"This is the truth sent from above,

If we can have a passage from Genesis among the nine lessons I don't see why we can't have a metrical paraphrase of the same passage.

Granted, the metrical paraphrase is doggerel, but it's nineteenth century folk-doggerel, which makes it Oral Tradition and therefore OK.

(That said choral favourites do indeed get a pass as far as theology is concerned; plenty of fairly Protestant shacks don't seem to bat an eyelid at 'Ne had the apple taken been, ne had never Our Lady a-been Heavenè Queen'.)

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668

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I have had it with the Huron Carol. It`s a perfectly good song, but I don`t need it more than once a day through Advent, variations included.

--------------------
Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
If we can have a passage from Genesis among the nine lessons I don't see why we can't have a metrical paraphrase of the same passage.

Quite. If you want to read Genesis as literal, you can read the song as literal. If you want to read it as metaphor, you can do the same with the song. Simples.

But for my money, being Genuine Victorian Folk Doggerel(TM) doesn't excuse it from the crime of being bad doggerel. I don't object to the theology, but I do object to the poetry.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Also, everyone hates a grammar Nazi.

I believe they prefer the term "alt-write" these days.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

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[Overused] [Overused]

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We had this rubbish this morning:

You were lucky.

We had the same song last week with middle verses omitted, so that the "endless woes" appear to follow directly as a consequence of the creation of woman.

--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Oh.

You mean they don't ?

I already have me coat on....

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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leo
Shipmate
# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Preview Post is even more your friend than it is for the rest of the cockwombles down here in the Infernal Regions, who don't have anywhere near the same excuse as you do for shabby coding and the like.

I also have my vision impaired.
CTRL+ makes things bigger so you can see them.
That doesn't help double vision.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Oh.

You mean they don't ?

I already have me coat on....

IJ

Only for the women. [Big Grin]

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Preview Post is even more your friend than it is for the rest of the cockwombles down here in the Infernal Regions, who don't have anywhere near the same excuse as you do for shabby coding and the like.

I also have my vision impaired.
CTRL+ makes things bigger so you can see them.
That doesn't help double vision.
I'm very sorry for your (hopefully temporary) impairments.

The rules for posting are few and not particularly onerous. But coherently and in English are two of them. We value your cooperation.

--------------------
Get your arse to Mars

Posts: 8696 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Al Eluia

Inquisitor
# 864

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quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
I have had it with the Huron Carol. It`s a perfectly good song, but I don`t need it more than once a day through Advent, variations included.

Have you heard it sung in Huron?
Huron Carol - Bruce Cockburn

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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/

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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668

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quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
I have had it with the Huron Carol. It`s a perfectly good song, but I don`t need it more than once a day through Advent, variations included.

Have you heard it sung in Huron?
Huron Carol - Bruce Cockburn

It's not for me. The sound of a native English speaker doesn't come across very well to my ear. (Ruth Sutherland has a reasonable version on her new CD, "First Light", but I can't find it on line). I'll try again next year.

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by leo: That doesn't help double vision.
Hie thee to thy optometrist. Double vision can be corrected. I know -- I have it too.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

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Santa Claus is Coming to Town.
If you didn't know anything, you'd think Santa Claus was coming to punish the naughty children rather than reward the nice ones. Being good is equivalent to not pouting and not crying.

The recording that has been about as muzak recently has the singer singing away serenely while the band punctuates his lines with brassy yells and screams.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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hatless

Shipmate
# 3365

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My current favourite piece of Christmas music is this

It's also a real pain because it's in six flats, except for about a third of the time when the C flat is cancelled, and you have to remember for the whole of each long, slow bar, and about a sixth of the time there are F flats as well. Seven flats?

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My crazy theology in novel form

Posts: 4483 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Piglet
Islander
# 11803

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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We had this rubbish this morning:

You were lucky.

We had the same song last week with middle verses omitted, so that the "endless woes" appear to follow directly as a consequence of the creation of woman.

We sang it at the Advent Procession. D. says that the verse-order Eliab heard was originally as found in The Oxford Book of Carols; our version has two verses in between about Adam and Eve being in Paradise until they ate of the tree, and then eating the apple, and then the verse about endless woe. We do verses 1-5 and 9 as listed here.

I agree with BT and Ricardus - (a) it's traditional; and (b) if the lessons from Genesis are there, why not have a metrical version from the choir?

[ 19. December 2016, 22:23: Message edited by: Piglet ]

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

Posts: 19323 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668

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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
My current favourite piece of Christmas music is this

It's also a real pain because it's in six flats, except for about a third of the time when the C flat is cancelled, and you have to remember for the whole of each long, slow bar, and about a sixth of the time there are F flats as well. Seven flats?

How did a Hell thread drift off into Bach? That piece is Heavenly - bought a CD of the oratorio a few weeks ago specially for Advent.

--------------------
Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
My current favourite piece of Christmas music is this

It's also a real pain because it's in six flats, except for about a third of the time when the C flat is cancelled, and you have to remember for the whole of each long, slow bar, and about a sixth of the time there are F flats as well. Seven flats?

Well, when your clavier is well-tempered you've got to show it off somehow, don't you?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
My current favourite piece of Christmas music is this

It's also a real pain because it's in six flats, except for about a third of the time when the C flat is cancelled, and you have to remember for the whole of each long, slow bar, and about a sixth of the time there are F flats as well. Seven flats?

Well, when your clavier is well-tempered you've got to show it off somehow, don't you?
Arf arf kersnipp kersnipp huyuk huyuk bwarp bwarp tnch tnch etc.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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If it's not a real language, can we still ask for a translation? [Paranoid]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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http://viz.co.uk/category/cartoons/strip-cartoons/finbarr-saunders/

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Fr Weber
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# 13472

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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
My current favourite piece of Christmas music is this

It's also a real pain because it's in six flats, except for about a third of the time when the C flat is cancelled, and you have to remember for the whole of each long, slow bar, and about a sixth of the time there are F flats as well. Seven flats?

I'm almost certain that the original key is G major. I have no idea why some dipshit would have transcribed it in G-flat, but people do all sorts of silly things.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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The sheet music is available for free download by a simple sheet. It is, as Fr Weber believed, in G major.

Bach was not one to use a silly key where a sensible one would do. What would be the point?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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The point is that different keys have a different tonal 'colour', which is why something performed in Dflat major has a less bright, in-your-face, colour than C major, for example.

Transcription? Why can't the rest of the world do as any decent organist and just transpose?

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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So 'tis said, although I'd be interested in doing some double-blind testing on that as on a well-tempered instrument there shouldn't really be.

It would mean of course that we're not hearing Bach's works how he intended, because he wasn't writing for a 440Hz A, so his G would have sounded like today's Gb - which might explain what someone transposed it.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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Depends on the instrument.

IMHO a lot of tosh is talked about "authentic" pitch because no one really knows - and the same is true of "authentic" instruments.

Bach wouldn't have had access to anything that sounded remotely like a piano, and an organ would have had far more wooden pipes which produce a very different sound. But in the case of organ works the possibility of ever achieving what Bach intended isn't a goer simply because so much relies on the registration chosen by any player.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Stercus Tauri
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# 16668

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If I might be hellish again for a moment, does anyone else loathe the Hillsong stuff as much as I do? We had a couple of them in an otherwise perfectly good Advent service the other day, and apart from being vacuous, instantly forgettable, unpoetical, unmusical and marginally spiritual, I am sure there is not much wrong with them, but I hate them anyway. At least they are so forgettable that they don't go banging on in your head afterwards. A five minute meditative silence would be infinitely preferable.

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Bach wouldn't have had access to anything that sounded remotely like a piano.

He would presumably have access to a clavichord which
(as this extract shows) is akin to the piano in the sense that one's touch affects the volume of the playing - unlike with the harpsichord.

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Fr Weber
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# 13472

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
So 'tis said, although I'd be interested in doing some double-blind testing on that as on a well-tempered instrument there shouldn't really be.

It would mean of course that we're not hearing Bach's works how he intended, because he wasn't writing for a 440Hz A, so his G would have sounded like today's Gb - which might explain what someone transposed it.

That might be a reason. Of course, it's almost guaranteed that no matter what key it's played in, the temperament won't be anything like one that Bach would have used. Most keyboard instruments nowadays are tuned to equal temperament rather than a well temperament (like Werckmeister or Temperament Ordinaire, e.g.).

And certainly Bach had access to clavichords, but I'll take issue with what l'organist contends about the piano. Bach was familiar with the fortepiano (which is not exactly the same instrument as today's piano, but it's fairly close), but preferred the harpsichord.

Also, I'm not sure whether I'd lean too heavily on the different colors of keys in equal temperament. Voicing is going to sound different when you take a piece down a half-step, certainly; thicker and less open. There's a complex relationship between acoustical phenomenon and psychological reaction, of course. So experienced musicians with well-trained ears will be able to perceive a coloristic difference between a D-flat major triad and one in C, but most people won't.

[ 21. December 2016, 16:37: Message edited by: Fr Weber ]

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Oh FFS. A hell thread about crappy Christmas muzak has become a discussion about Bach's pitch and instrumentation which is more detailed than anything on the Classical music forum I now spend much of my time on because watching you lot prattle on ceased to bring even the degree of joy I used to get from shoving a pitchfork into you.

We've got a poster basically asking permission to become Hellish again for a moment. Instead of the insufferable amateur musicologists asking permission to continue living when parts of their own bodies are probably withering in despair at the prospect of another conversation about the merits of a clavichord.

[ 22. December 2016, 12:17: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh FFS. A hell thread about crappy Christmas muzak has become a discussion about Bach's pitch and instrumentation which is more detailed than anything on the Classical music forum I now spend much of my time on because watching you lot prattle on ceased to bring even the degree of joy I used to get from shoving a pitchfork into you.

Not quite Dickensian but an admirable run-on sentence. Keep practicing!

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Al Eluia

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# 864

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My favorite part was:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
We've got a poster basically asking permission to become Hellish again for a moment. Instead of the insufferable amateur musicologists asking permission to continue living when parts of their own bodies are probably withering in despair at the prospect of another conversation about the merits of a clavichord.



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https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/

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