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Source: (consider it) Thread: Dear Steve Langton,
Huia
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# 3473

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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Whereas gay people do actually decide to be gay every day. It's not like they make the occasional bad decision - they almost seem to have decided that being gay is who they are. They've chosen a sinful lifestyle, which is really utterly and completely different to all the selfish and immoral shit that normal people like Jamat do, and it's that that means that they can't be proper Christians, but the rest of us can.

Thanks Eliab, I've always wondered why gays have a lifestyle ( according to those who are homophobic) while the rest of us have to be content with just having lives.

Jamat, your family get togethers must be a load of fun. I know which part of the room I would be in.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I generally don't do irony myself. Either it's wrinkles or wear a cardigan on top of the shirt. I actually think it's a generational thing, not a national thing. If you understand what I didn't mean.

That's the kind of thing that would induce me to throw a piece of irony at your head, if I wasn't leading a sissy lifestyle that has caused me to lose all my strength and talk with a lisp.

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
... We Americans don't even HAVE irony meters because for us it just doesn't exist. Nothing to calibrate. ...

Just look at all the USA folk who said they were glad Lady Gaga wasn't "political" at the Super Bowl.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Soror Magna
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Oh, yeah, and this:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
.... non-prophetic schizophrenia ...

Genius. I'll use that the next time some idiot Christian recommends faith over anti-psychotics. "She's been diagnosed with non-prophetic schizophrenia, so she should seek proper medical treatment."

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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balaam

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Not always.

I'm not sure she's speaking in her own voice here. Irony meter calibrations £30.
Sorry, I tend to take things literally.

Hence the shoplifting convictions.

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Fearfully and wonderfully mad

ن
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Posts: 8563 | From: Proxima b | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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I've been too busy ironying to incompletely unravel this thread, but has the Stevey been told to stop choosing to live a Asperger and/or Austism Spectrum lifestyle yet? It's a choice!

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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JonahMan
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I was thinking of becoming gay for a day or two. Do I get the limp handshake, the handsome friends and the lisp straightaway, or will I need to work on it?

I expect I'll revert to straightness next week, and become a genuine Christian again. Luckily Amazon has a 30 day return policy for Julie Andrews movies.

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Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave

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Helen-Eva
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quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
I was thinking of becoming gay for a day or two. Do I get the limp handshake, the handsome friends and the lisp straightaway, or will I need to work on it?

I expect I'll revert to straightness next week, and become a genuine Christian again. Luckily Amazon has a 30 day return policy for Julie Andrews movies.

The last time I looked at this thread I was so depressed by it that I wasn't going to look again but now you (and those above) have made it beautiful. My faith in humanity is restored.

If I decide to go gay for a few days do you think I can get rental on the dungarees and DMs and how soon will the crew cut grow out?

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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
... We Americans don't even HAVE irony meters because for us it just doesn't exist. Nothing to calibrate. ...

Just look at all the USA folk who said they were glad Lady Gaga wasn't "political" at the Super Bowl.
Is that irony or just stupidity?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Golden Key
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fletcher christian--

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I've often wondered about the reasoning behind this. Presumably also if you are committing any sin at all no matter how large or small, then at that very moment you commit it or decide to do it, then you are not a Christian. So, for instance, if I decide to tell a lie and then tell it and never correct it, for the entire period that this lasts, I am not a Christian. To me that seems a rather precarious existence in the freedom of the Christian life and I could die at any point and find myself on the wrong side of the road, so to speak. It also seems to me to be a complete denial of the belief in the power of sin shattered; or perhaps the power of sin is absolute and the power of God is intensely fragile and weak?

This is one reason some fundamentalists go with "once saved, always saved" (OSAS). Because if you can lose your salvation, worrying about that can take over and warp your life. Fortunately, my childhood church went with OSAS.

But then there's the question of whether you're really saved, whether you really meant your decision for Jesus. Worse, if you simply grew up in church and never made a conscious decision.

**Jamat**: Wow, you really mean all that? My initial thought was that you were doing a parody of something you didn't believe.

[ 14. February 2017, 04:08: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
... We Americans don't even HAVE irony meters because for us it just doesn't exist. Nothing to calibrate. ...

Just look at all the USA folk who said they were glad Lady Gaga wasn't "political" at the Super Bowl.
Is that irony or just stupidity?
Americans excel at producing irony ...

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Erroneous Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
I was thinking of becoming gay for a day or two.

A day or two? I'm just planning to have a gay lunch.

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
If you want to be an active homosexual, you cannot be a genuine Christian.

The rest of the arguments? Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, still can't arrive at a fully settled position (stop snickering in the back row there).

But this? This makes every other difference of opinion pale into insignificance in its judgmentalism.

I think you're a misguided, legalistic, dispensationalist homophobe. But I don't call your salvation into question as a result. That is between you and the Lord, just as it is for everyone else.

Thank you for that. There are two reasons I posted that knowing that it would draw genuine hate. I pick this post to reply to as typical.

The first is that the opinions, questions and interpretation expressed by Steve Langton are common and popularly supported and to see him pilloried by vicious comments seemed pusillanimous. Who made him the judge of theology? No judgement is involved IMV. If someone comes to a different view of what the Bible says about this issue than the majority here, this does NOT make them homophobic or legitimate targets for the hate expressed here over quite a long time. I regard that as unchristian behaviour given most expressing these views consider themselves Christians of a more enlightened view having left behind the 'God of judgement.'

The second is that I care. When I sin I am aware of it. There have been times when I desperately wanted something to be true that I came to realise after a long time was not true and I realised I was in denial about it. I have seen the effects of putting things in a cupboard and closing the door, of desperately resisting what time, experience and hardship in the end, forced me to realise was wrong, or not God's will,or just plain sin. Whether most here view this as stupid or dishonest, I hate the idea of anyone waking up on the wrong side of eternity. You may disagree with my convictions about what the Bible says, but My motive is to warn. I realise some see it as judgemental. I cannot help that.

Of course I realise that this is a huge issue. The site below is not the only view but it is,more or less mine
Summary
However I realise others differ for lots of reasons and take a softer line. Like This one
In the end we are all flawed sinners. I do not think that seeing the scripture through the lens of a particular issue in order to minimise a particular sin, makes any sense, but it is what anyone who desperately wrestles with an issue does at times. If I fall into an affair for instance, I desperately tell myself a justifying story, but God sits above my self deception in the end.

[ 14. February 2017, 14:33: Message edited by: Jamat ]

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Arethosemyfeet
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Oh look, another comparison of being gay with being an adulterer. I've never heard that insulting comparison before. Going to try for paedophilia or bestiality next?

And no, it's not hate. It anger, that people who should know better are deliberately harming people I care about, and doing it in the name of my faith. It harms gay people and it harms the Gospel by making it out to be about inexplicable rules that force people to choose between faith and love, when nothing could be further from the truth.

And, like it or not, when you condemn gay people and demand continued discrimination against them YOU ARE homophobic. You may think your homophobia is justified, but it's still homophobia.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
There are two reasons I posted that knowing that it would draw genuine hate.

You missed out the third, is that you were deliberately trolling.

I don't know who Matt Slick is, and less do I care. If he wants to come on here and debate, then fine. He's not here. You are.

If you want to claim your God-given right to be homophobic, knock yourself out. If your version of Christianity is homophobic, own it. Be proud of it. Proclaim it from the rooftops that God hates Fags. Be that bringer of Good News. It's the truth, after all. Just don't deny that you are that homophobe though.

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Lost in Space

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
There are two reasons I posted that knowing that it would draw genuine hate. I pick this post to reply to as typical.

I don't generally do hate, requires too much energy and you are definitely not worth the effort.
You are fun to revile, though, so points there!
You should have posted on Russ' thread as you are both genuine trolls. Steve might not be. Fucked up, wrong and bigoted, but maybe not a troll.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Helen-Eva
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
My motive is to warn. I realise some see it as judgemental. I cannot help that.

I don't agree with Jamat's position but I don't see any point in getting into that as I doubt either of us is going to change the other's mind.

However, I think there's room for more productive dialogue in the bit I've quoted. If you want to stop someone doing something, warning them is one way to do it. However, it's not the only way and it may not be the most effective. Example NOT implying moral equivalence: most countries warn their citizens that if they commit crime they will go to prison. This warning does not seem to stop everyone committing crime.

Persuasion, empathy, sympathy, putting forward positive alternatives are also options. I wonder if it would be possible for those who honestly believe that homosexuality is a sin to attempt to dissuade those they see as sinners from committing sin in some slightly less upsetting way? That way they would be more likely to get a positive result.

I repeat, I'm not agreeing that homosexuality is a sin - I don't think anyone gets damned for the way they're born. What I'm trying to suggest is a way to make the discussion less hurtful and hate-filled for all concerned.

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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
There have been times when I desperately wanted something to be true that I came to realise after a long time was not true and I realised I was in denial about it. I have seen the effects of putting things in a cupboard and closing the door, of desperately resisting what time, experience and hardship in the end, forced me to realise was wrong, or not God's will,or just plain sin.
Oh, Jamat, Jamat. The tragic irony of it all, and you just can't see it!

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Thank you for that. There are two reasons I posted that knowing that it would draw genuine hate. I pick this post to reply to as typical.

Well since Doc Tor has come out and said it so will I: you admit trolling.

And I don't hate you. I do find your attitude despicable though, all the more so because you think it's ok to come trolling on issues which people literally kill themselves over having agonised about them.

Shame on you.

quote:
I regard that as unchristian behaviour given most expressing these views consider themselves Christians of a more enlightened view having left behind the 'God of judgement.'
What you seem to miss is that you appear to be leaving him behind too.

By deciding who is and who isn't a christian you are setting yourself up as God and judge.

quote:
The second is that I care. When I sin I am aware of it.
I know I get flamed for coming across as self-righteousness from time to time but this really takes the biscuit. Your insinuation is that nobody who disagrees with you could possibly care. Isn't pride one of the deadly sins?

[ 14. February 2017, 16:36: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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leo
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Slick's website has info. from discredited studies which suggest that gays have poorer healtrh than straights.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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leo
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He also doesn't believe that Roman Catholics are Christians.

Fruitcake.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Jamat
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quote:
you missed out the third, is that you were deliberately trolling.
That, I deny. Also, that I hate gays. I do not think the fact that one is gay is a sin or wrong. The issue for me is about Biblical truth. However, I think that is it from me.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Jamat - scrupulousity.

""groundless fear of sinning that arises from 'erroneous ideas'"
(Alphonsus Liguori, founder of the Redemptorists)

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
you missed out the third, is that you were deliberately trolling.
That, I deny. Also, that I hate gays. I do not think the fact that one is gay is a sin or wrong. The issue for me is about Biblical truth. However, I think that is it from me.
Whoa there. You don't get to do your cowardly hit-and-run tactics around here. You have to explain yourself and defend yourself, or that label I gave you sticks.

'Biblical truth' (shouldn't you be spelling that with a capital T?) is nothing more than a fig-leaf for your own prejudices and intolerances. I'm compassionate because God is compassionate. I'm generous because God is generous. I'm forgiving because God is forgiving. If you want to add 'I'm homophobic because God is homophobic', then you claim that honestly.

Your God is homophobic. Say it, Jamat. Say it.

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Lost in Space

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Gee D
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A great worry for me is that Jamat is a teacher! How do the pupils end up with teaching from someone with the opinions expressed on this topic and on Creationism?

Then the line about people chooing to be active gays! None chooses, all simply are, just as others of us are straight, etc. No choice, just are.

But don't go so easy on the divorced. That reading last Sunday is very strong. Can we expect similar condemnation from Steve Langton, Jamat and Russ as they give of gays?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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Or the tattooed, or those who wear mixed fibres.

Isn't that the Biblical truth?

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Lost in Space

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
There have been times when I desperately wanted something to be true that I came to realise after a long time was not true and I realised I was in denial about it. I have seen the effects of putting things in a cupboard and closing the door, of desperately resisting what time, experience and hardship in the end, forced me to realise was wrong, or not God's will,or just plain sin.
Oh, Jamat, Jamat. The tragic irony of it all, and you just can't see it!
Indeed. This was amazing.

Jamat, as a person who spent... over 15 years doing exactly this, I couldn't agree with you more.

But you're not saying what you think you're saying.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
I was thinking of becoming gay for a day or two.

A day or two? I'm just planning to have a gay lunch.
I had a gay dinner last night. There were 4 of us experienced homosexual eaters, chomping away on ravioli and meatballs. And every single one of us chose soft drinks over alcohol. I don't know how the other customers coped.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Or the tattooed, or those who wear mixed fibres.

Isn't that the Biblical truth?

That's often what the words in our modern bibles say using our modern language. Quite what is meant in two-thousand year old Greek, which often doesn't correspond to English we don't know, hence the need for concordances, and even they don't agree.

Remember folks, we need to understand the Word of God, not the words.

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
your cowardly hit-and-run tactics
I'm totally over you Mate. If I was a coward I would have avoided posting here. I am quite happy to continue if there was a point. All I can see though is that to voice a contrary view to the liberal left wing agenda is the unforgiveable sin. Unbelievable anger is reserved for the ones who dare disagree. Possibly that is what Trump's white house is like.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
All I can see though is that to voice a contrary view to the liberal left wing agenda is the unforgiveable sin. Unbelievable anger is reserved for the ones who dare disagree

Complete and utter bullshit.

Argue a case for homosexuality intelligently, with empathy and with respect, and I will listen to you (Orfeo who I am proud to own as a brother in Christ tops my list in that respect). Pepper it with snide remarks and judgmentalism and I will listen less.

(Infuse it with emotion and I will be upset, but as has been rightly pointed out to me, people tend to get upset about this stuff because of the kind of judgmental shit they have to put up with. Some of them kill themselves, while others have the benefit of professing Christians doing the job for them).

Exactly the same applies to those arguing against. But I have to say that the numbers of people capable of arguing against homosexuality intelligently and with respect appear to be vanishingly small.

I am calling you on this thread not for your views on homosexuality, but for decreeing that an entire category of people are not Christians, as though it were up to you to decide, and for deciding that your arrogance and judgmentalism are somehow forgiveable sins and that homosexual behaviour is (in your view) an unforgiveable one.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Hear hear Eutychus.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
I am calling you on this thread not for your views on homosexuality, but for decreeing that an entire category of people are not Christians,
And I am calling the lot of you for your Biblical interpretation as Steve Langton had the temerity to do and was pilloried. Who belongs to the Lord is not certainly my call. Kindly spare me your self righteousness.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mousethief

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# 953

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Even as an American I can feel the irony in that one.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Who belongs to the Lord is not certainly my call. Kindly spare me your self righteousness.

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
If you want to be an active homosexual, you cannot be a genuine Christian

Oh come on. At least get your story straight. Or are you trying to channel the Trump administration who you so clearly admire?

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Lost in Space

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
I am calling you on this thread not for your views on homosexuality, but for decreeing that an entire category of people are not Christians,
And I am calling the lot of you for your Biblical interpretation as Steve Langton had the temerity to do and was pilloried. Who belongs to the Lord is not certainly my call. Kindly spare me your self righteousness.
What you are doing, both of you, is flatly pronouncing that a particular Bublical interpretation is the correct one and that anyone who says otherwise ain't Christian.

Meanwhile, I bet you're one of the vast majority of people who take the Bible passage about women wearing hats in church, and use context to explain why it doesn't mean women have to wear hats in church. I did encounter one website that said women did have to wear hats and lamented how so many had been led astray by false teaching. I had to give the guy credit, at least he was consistent.

But no, the vast majority of people like you who want to tell me I can't use context or nuance re homosexuality will use EXACTLY the same techniques when it comes to women wearing hats, or to slavery. You should have seen the frantic contextualising when a former Australian PM explained his Christian, pro-SSM stance to someone who referred to the Bible, by commenting on what the a Bible said about slavery. All the conservative Christians set out to explain why the Bible didn't support slavery, utterly missing the point the PM was making about interpretation.

[ 14. February 2017, 23:54: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Steve Langton
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# 17601

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Who belongs to the Lord is not certainly my call. Kindly spare me your self righteousness.

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
If you want to be an active homosexual, you cannot be a genuine Christian

Oh come on. At least get your story straight. Or are you trying to channel the Trump administration who you so clearly admire?

Judging who is individually 'saved', not my call. But stating the basic terms of being saved, without any necessary personal reference, that's just faithfully passing on God's position in his word.

If - and note the 'if' - in any area you want to openly defy what God has said is right, you are at least making it difficult for you to be regarded as a genuine Christian. I wouldn't want to preempt God's own call - but on the face of it I have a clear duty of care to warn of the risk you run....

For orfeo I'm actually more worried about what he said in the OP of the thread about hoping I catch leprosy; that hope seems decidedly incompatible with his being a 'genuine Christian', and tells me that at least orfeo's judgement in matters of biblical interpretation is likely to be way, way off beam. I'm not sure, in light of that OP remark, that I can agree with Eutychus on this;

quote:
Argue a case for homosexuality intelligently, with empathy and with respect, and I will listen to you (Orfeo who I am proud to own as a brother in Christ tops my list in that respect)
I've a few things to say about some items earlier - particularly the baiting about 'Aspie lifestyle'; not sure right now when I next get chance. Also I think in the end I'll need to start a thread to attempt a rational discussion of 'gay' issues. But again, not sure when I'll have time to do it properly....
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Here in Hell I'm not debating homosexuality because you had made it clear that the debate was pointless, hence outside the scope of what Eutychus was talking about.

Also I think my curse was thoroughly Biblical.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Who belongs to the Lord is not certainly my call. Kindly spare me your self righteousness.

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
If you want to be an active homosexual, you cannot be a genuine Christian

Oh come on. At least get your story straight. Or are you trying to channel the Trump administration who you so clearly admire?

It is definitely what I think the Bible says. It is not my personal judgement. Arrogant thought police is the thing that comes to mind. You condemn those who differ with you far more than I do anyone.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Who belongs to the Lord is not certainly my call. Kindly spare me your self righteousness.

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
If you want to be an active homosexual, you cannot be a genuine Christian

Oh come on. At least get your story straight. Or are you trying to channel the Trump administration who you so clearly admire?

It is definitely what I think the Bible says. It is not my personal judgement. Arrogant thought police is the thing that comes to mind. You condemn those who differ with you far more than I do anyone.
You're condemning people to Hell. When did Doc Tor condemn anybody? Or do you think anybody disagreeing with you is "condemning" you? We already know you don't understand "logically inconsistent." Could it be you also don't understand what "condemn" means?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Here in Hell I'm not debating homosexuality because you had made it clear that the debate was pointless, hence outside the scope of what Eutychus was talking about.

Also I think my curse was thoroughly Biblical.

Sorry, I must have dodged that curse. never mind there are plenty of others. Just for the record, I do not personally judge you. I do grasp something of your battle from observations of my own family. There seems to me no actual room for discussion in your stance or in that in anyone else here. The attitude is 'disagree with me and you're a homophobe.' 'I am who I am, God made me like this so I'm OK.' Is that really giving the opposition any chance at all?

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
If - and note the 'if' - in any area you want to openly defy what God has said is right, you are at least making it difficult for you to be regarded as a genuine Christian. I wouldn't want to preempt God's own call - but on the face of it I have a clear duty of care to warn of the risk you run....

Do you? Do you really?

Leaving aside the little point you overlook that this is your interpretation of what God says, and not straight from the Big Guy's mouth, let me ask you this (not that you answered the last several questions I put to you but I'm nothing if not relentless):

Do you really, can you possibly, believe that orfeo hasn't already heard everything you have to say to him about homosexuality? To the point that you think that he is so unlikely to have heard it that it is incumbent upon you to tell him, just in case nobody else has, which is so unlikely, for whatever reason?

Can you possibly believe that? Really? In your heart of hearts?

If you believe that then, (1) you haven't read what he's said about his own struggle, and (2) you really don't understand the 21st century.

If you realize he's heard it all before then why say it? Does it give you warm fuzzies to condemn people to Hell? Why not just assume that he's heard it and stfu about it? One can only assume you're some kind of sick fuck.

So which is it?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

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quote:
You're condemning people to Hell
If that's the way you see it so be it. I do not and would not condemn anyone to hell. This issue though is very divisive obviously and only one possible outcome is accepted by you lot.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mousethief

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# 953

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Nice dodge. Downright artful.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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And clearly only one outcome is possible for you: "God hates fags, and if you keep on being a fag, you're going to Hell. I'm sorry, and I wish it weren't this way, but there it is."

You paint this like you're the patient, flexible one and orfeo & co. are all completely inflexible and unreasonable. Do you own a mirror?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
I've a few things to say about some items earlier - particularly the baiting about 'Aspie lifestyle'; not sure right now when I next get chance. Also I think in the end I'll need to start a thread to attempt a rational discussion of 'gay' issues. But again, not sure when I'll have time to do it properly....

It's not baiting Steve. It's a real comparison. Asperger's is a set of characteristics which appear to be inherited and then expressed with life. Those who have Asperger's generally feel that they are who they are and they cannot really change to become some other person. This is the lived experience of people who are gay and lesbian.

I didn't start out my life with this understanding. It developed after I met some gay friends. They talked and I listened. I didn't accept and didn't understand at all. It seemed so odd to my experience. But the local community here did some education, and shared with our church. And we put together a study group for us ignorant of it. I became what some call "convicted" of the truth. I went from a ignorer and passively tolerant of rejection, to realizing that (1) it really hurt people to be rejected for being who they authentically are, (2) that Christianity was foremost all about love, (3) that I had been terribly wrong.

The story concludes with me becoming an advocate of "more love" (not less), with moving a motion, getting it passed, working with the diocese etc. But you wouldn't care about that. Your heart is stone.

Fact is Steve, I'm worried about your salvation. Rejecting love means rejecting Jesus, rejecting God, and accepting its opposite. Which is hate. But I'm probably just blowing snow about this for you.

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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And clearly only one outcome is possible for you: "God hates fags, and if you keep on being a fag, you're going to Hell."

Downright crass. I refuse to treat this seriously

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And clearly only one outcome is possible for you: "God hates fags, and if you keep on being a fag, you're going to Hell."

Downright crass. I refuse to treat this seriously
And he dodges again, ladies and gentleman! The man will do anything to keep from engaging with someone. Anything at all.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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mousethief

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# 953

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If we dress up crass thoughts in polite language they're still crass.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Here in Hell I'm not debating homosexuality because you had made it clear that the debate was pointless, hence outside the scope of what Eutychus was talking about.

Also I think my curse was thoroughly Biblical.

Sorry, I must have dodged that curse. never mind there are plenty of others. Just for the record, I do not personally judge you. I do grasp something of your battle from observations of my own family. There seems to me no actual room for discussion in your stance or in that in anyone else here. The attitude is 'disagree with me and you're a homophobe.' 'I am who I am, God made me like this so I'm OK.' Is that really giving the opposition any chance at all?
You really do not seem to have read what I've actually said, or quite possibly are conflating it with things other people have said.

The second part, that God made me this way, is an accurate reflection of my views. The first part is not an accurate description of my views.

I am perfectly happy for other people to interpret the Bible differently. What I am not happy with is when they tell me that, because my interpretation is different from theirs, I am not a Christian, I am sinning against God etc etc.

Contrast that to someone like Tony Campolo who, at one time at least, was speaking publically alongside his wife and acknowledging that they had different views on this. He considered loving homosexual relationships incompatible with the Bible. His wife did not. His response to this was NOT to condemn her as a heretic.

I mean, where the Hell did this view develop that this theological question defined your Christianity? There are a myriad of theological questions that Christians differ on. Why did being homosexual get slipped into some people's version of Romans 10:9?

That's what makes someone a homophobe to me: someone who refuses to accept that maybe my own study of the Bible and consideration of the issues has led me to conclude honestly and sincerely that the Bible's condemnation of abusive and idolatrous homosexual practices is not a general condemnation of homosexual relationships. Or my study has made me realise what nonsense it is to think Sodom was destroyed for homosexuality, to the point where it contradicts the Bible's own statements. Heck, even Tony Campolo agrees with me there.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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