homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Westminster attack (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Westminster attack
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Nobody knows what is going on, but it looks bad at the moment. At least one dead, others with "catastrophic injuries", MPs locked into the HoP, tourists held on the London Eye, reports of a vehicle ploughing into people on Westminster bridge.

Fuck.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9569 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What we know at present

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16372 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
FWIW, the security authorities in London are acting as if the incident is still ongoing, with some reports of the bomb squad examining a vehicle in or near the HoP. But so far, it seems there was an incident on Westminster bridge (which is close to the Houses of Parliament) and outside the gates of Parliament itself where shots were fired. It is said by some agencies that the dead person was is a woman pedestrian and that there was some incident with a bus.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9569 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Further, it seems that a government minister attempted to give life-saving first aid to a policeman at the scene.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9569 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Further, it seems that a government minister attempted to give life-saving first aid to a policeman at the scene.

whilst this is hell I'll stick my neck out and say that I know from IRL (personal family stuff) that Tobias Ellwood is one of the absolute good guys, and this is not in the least surprising. He is a top, top man.

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1309 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A woman has been pulled alive from the Thames having been involved in the Westminster bridge incident.

Sorry, I'll stop now - there isn't any point in giving a running commentary.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9569 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

 - Posted      Profile for Pigwidgeon   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't care if this is Hell...

Prayers for everyone affected by this horror.
[Votive]

--------------------
Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

Posts: 9201 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Entirely appropriate in my view to pray in Hell. What better a place for it.

The terrible events and injuries sound like they were handled as well as can be expected. Which confirms to me that almost all people are basically good. Just not all of them.

Posts: 10627 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Beenster
Shipmate
# 242

 - Posted      Profile for Beenster   Email Beenster   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Selfies. Really?
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:
Selfies. Really?

Yet the police are asking for all this footage as vital evidence.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12421 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Some fools led by.. well, y'know-who, are jumping to assumptions that the guy shot by police had a beard and was generally brown, and therefore was a Muslim.

However there are photos showing paramedics treating the guy (and, yeah, we even treat people who have killed pedestrians. because that's who we are) and his socks have been removed showing very pale feet.

It seems to me that we'd all be best to not assume this is an Islamic terrorist outrage until, y'know, it is proven to be an Islamic terrorist outrage. It could easily be a lone gunman who just hasn't washed for a week.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9569 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:
Selfies. Really?

Yet the police are asking for all this footage as vital evidence.
Irrelevant to the motive of the selfish idiots talking them. It is valuable to take images in circumstances such as these, more so if the taker's bloody face isn't in the shot.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16372 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Irrelevant to the motive of the selfish idiots talking them. It is valuable to take images in circumstances such as these, more so if the taker's bloody face isn't in the shot.

I think we need to be a little more forgiving, these people saw something awful happen in front of them and were living in that moment of shock. It is a sign of the times that their first reaction was to take selfies (not really selfies unless they were smiling with the thing in the background, I suspect they were just taking photos of the weird stuff they saw in front of them, but anyway) but we also know that after that instant moment, people jumped to help.

I'd also note that police are said to have been on the scene first, and yet it took a MP to run out of Westminster and begin CPR (apparently on both the alleged assailant and the injured policeman) before the paramedics arrived.

Someone was clearly thinking clearly as the guy who has knifed the policeman was shot, but why the others stood around and let the MP do CPR is hard to understand - unless they too were suffering from a moment of extreme shock and only a battle-trained soldier was experienced enough to ride through that and begin trying to save the men's lives.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9569 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It may be that the others who 'stood around' saw that the MP was doing CPR correctly, but were ready to assist or relieve him as and when required. Best not to speculate, though, as we weren't there.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8352 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'd also note that police are said to have been on the scene first, and yet it took a MP to run out of Westminster and begin CPR (apparently on both the alleged assailant and the injured policeman) before the paramedics arrived.

Someone was clearly thinking clearly as the guy who has knifed the policeman was shot, but why the others stood around and let the MP do CPR is hard to understand - unless they too were suffering from a moment of extreme shock and only a battle-trained soldier was experienced enough to ride through that and begin trying to save the men's lives.

Or, there was confusion. Concern that there was one or more other terrorists, and a priority to protect the MPs and others in Westminster from ongoing threats. Maybe their counter-terrorism expertise was better spent on that than seeing to the welfare of the suspect they'd already shot, or even one of their own. In the heat of the moment, that may have been their training - I doubt they'd have all left one of their own if not for training that put the defense of Westminster above it.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31854 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Right. I'm not speculating, other than to suspect that everyone was being perfectly human and acted in understandable ways - and that we should give people a pass before assuming the worst.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9569 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411

 - Posted      Profile for Jay-Emm     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Right. I'm not speculating, other than to suspect that everyone was being perfectly human and acted in understandable ways - and that we should give people a pass before assuming the worst.

In hindsight, we know that it was over (probably) and in practice less severe than events that only make local (or at most national) news (which makes it no less upsetting for the families of those concerned, or less wrong).*
But for the officers and civilians at the time, it wasn't over (if nothing else, is running up to them going to get misunderstood)
[which is basically agreeing on the reactions issue]

*I'm of the opinion that a French, etc.. statement and dimming London's Tower Bridge is probably about right, dimming the Eiffel tower is making the murderer more significant than he deserves.

[ 22. March 2017, 21:38: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]

Posts: 1583 | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
deano
princess
# 12063

 - Posted      Profile for deano   Email deano   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Some fools led by.. well, y'know-who, are jumping to assumptions that the guy shot by police had a beard and was generally brown, and therefore was a Muslim.

However there are photos showing paramedics treating the guy (and, yeah, we even treat people who have killed pedestrians. because that's who we are) and his socks have been removed showing very pale feet.

It seems to me that we'd all be best to not assume this is an Islamic terrorist outrage until, y'know, it is proven to be an Islamic terrorist outrage. It could easily be a lone gunman who just hasn't washed for a week.

Yeah right, and I'm hung like Mandingo.

What odds are you giving cheesy, I might have a tenner?

Let's face facts. He will turn out to be a member of the "religion of peace" and if he hadn't been in this country at least five (four of worth) people would still be alive.

--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh, look who showed up.

We don't know yet who this criminal was, or his motivations. But, it's easy to assume he was a Muslim and an immigrant. So, along comes deano taking the easy option because the alternatives would require some thought, and he's incapable of that. What do you suggest? Close mosques, ban Muslims, turn away refugees fleeing other Muslims?

We can debate endlessly whether Islam is a religion of peace with a few heretical thugs twisting the faith they're somewhat affiliated to to justify unjustifiable acts of murder. But, there's no doubt that the religion of deano is one of hate, spite and inhumanity, lacking any compassion or love, or even common sense.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31854 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We could talk of pizza being a food of peace just as intelligently

or of deano being the pineapple of peace.

Posts: 10627 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

 - Posted      Profile for Palimpsest   Email Palimpsest   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:

Let's face facts. He will turn out to be a member of the "religion of peace" and if he hadn't been in this country at least five (four of worth) people would still be alive.

Claiming him as one of your own? Doesn't seem like anything to boast about.
Posts: 2967 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Turns out it was an Islamist attack, which is what I'd assumed once I knew that a cat had been used as a weapon on Westminster Bridge.

Before that, I was open to the possibility of it being a disturbed individual of any faith or none.

The odds were pretty high that this is what it would turn out to be given the current climate. The odds were even higher that Deano would respond with his characteristic level of crass and Neanderthal dip-stickery.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15310 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That should have been 'car'.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15310 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

 - Posted      Profile for Schroedinger's cat   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
That should have been 'car'.

I think a cat as a weapon is even better.

It seems that the attacker was a man, which is clear proof that we shouldn't let men into this country. Unless, of course, you take the view that not all men share a single perspective, in which case we shouldn't let any unprincipled shitheads into this country. So there goes Trumps visit.

And Deano - your comment is the biggest load of racist, unjustified twattery I have seen for a long time, and that is saying something. If we want to talk about keeping people out of the country, I think you, with your bigotry and hatred would be top of the list. You are precisely the sort of person who commits this sort of act. So fuck the whole way to GN-Z11 and then don't stop, because you will still be in the same fucking universe as me, and that is still too near.

The attacker was a terrorist, someone who seeks to inspire terror. He failed. That makes him a knobhead. May he rest in shit.

--------------------
Blog
My books for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18397 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Though, if his actions result in further restrictions on the civil liberties of ordinary people, innocent of any crime and not inclined to criminal activity, then he has won a small victory. If we don't return to normal life rapidly, if we introduce further restrictions on immigration or accept less refugees, close off access to even more of our publicly owned property, or any of the other actions someone like deano are liable to want to introduce then this evil individual has won a small victory.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31854 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Turns out it was an Islamist attack, which is what I'd assumed once I knew that a cat had been used as a weapon on Westminster Bridge.

Was going to use the rofl emoji there but thinking it would not be appropriate. Had a cat been used one would probably have attributed to Satanists.

It has to be said that I found the news coverage to this incident to be well Ott.
An extra half of coverage TV news last night in which the presenter rounded off by saying-- This was an 'unprecedented' attack on the Seat of British democracy---
I suppose to be fair, Guy Fawkes' gunpowder never went off so maybe the comment had some merit.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 2979 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm sorry, I've just been looking at several sensible news sources, and none of them are reporting that this is Islamic terrorism. The quote from the police was that it was "international" terrorism.

I can believe it absolutely is IS-inspired actions designed to spread fear, but until we actually know, how about we keep our powder dry?

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9569 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I would also like to state something which is probably obvious to everyone: the space outside the Palace of Westminster is probably one of the most policed in the country. If this idiot wanted to cause mass casualties - as per the disgusting attacks in France and elsewhere - there are much softer targets.

The guy was an idiot as well as a terrorist.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9569 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:


It has to be said that I found the news coverage to this incident to be well Ott.
An extra half of coverage TV news last night in which the presenter rounded off by saying-- This was an 'unprecedented' attack on the Seat of British democracy---
I suppose to be fair, Guy Fawkes' gunpowder never went off so maybe the comment had some merit.

And of course there was poor old Airey Neave, who was my first thought when they said that. Just before I was born but even I've got that photo of the car with the door open and the papers all over the car park entrance burned in my mind.

They do like a bit of hyperbole.

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1309 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673

 - Posted      Profile for Mark Wuntoo   Email Mark Wuntoo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm sorry, I've just been looking at several sensible news sources, and none of them are reporting that this is Islamic terrorism. The quote from the police was that it was "international" terrorism.

I can believe it absolutely is IS-inspired actions designed to spread fear, but until we actually know, how about we keep our powder dry?

I agree.

I am sick about the attack.

I also am sick of the coverage and the point-scoring by the likes of Theresa May. The police actually stated that the man was 'inspired by international terrorism' - that does not necessarily make him a terrorist - but it suits the purposes of some to call it that.
It seems to me that the panic of the actual event was worsened by the sensationalist (that may not be the right word for the response but (as Rolyn said) it was OTT.
I think there are questions to be answered about the shooting of the attacker, too. Where was the tazer? Whatever they thought might be round the waste of the man or in the car (I assume they were thinking of those possibilities) and whatever they thought about the pssibility of an accomplice/s it would have been better to have immobilised the man and kept him on the ground guarded by suitable weapons whilst they did their investigations. If it turns out that the man was mentally ill - well, say no more. But perhaps we will never know.

--------------------
Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

Posts: 1909 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

 - Posted      Profile for Penny S     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It is not impossible that the attacker may have been both inspired by quasi-Islamic ideas or actions, and also a lone disturbed person who would have acted in a similar way without the input of that source. Or, indeed, the support of a group of Islamist activists in Birmingham.
Posts: 5746 | Registered: May 2009  |  IP: Logged
Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673

 - Posted      Profile for Mark Wuntoo   Email Mark Wuntoo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
It is not impossible that the attacker may have been both inspired by quasi-Islamic ideas or actions, and also a lone disturbed person who would have acted in a similar way without the input of that source. Or, indeed, the support of a group of Islamist activists in Birmingham.

Yes. At the moment we know very little. He could have been anything at all. That's why it is unhelpful (not least because it causes panic) to call him a terrorist unless and until we know he was.

--------------------
Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

Posts: 1909 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Whatever they thought might be round the waste of the man or in the car (I assume they were thinking of those possibilities) and whatever they thought about the pssibility of an accomplice/s it would have been better to have immobilised the man and kept him on the ground guarded by suitable weapons whilst they did their investigations.

Jaw dropping. You don't tazer people who may be wearing what your suggesting they might have thought he was wearing for the fairly obvious reason that passing large amounts of electrical current through such things (or their wearers) has a tendency not to help the situation. Not always but unless you know specifically what you're dealing with then you can't rule it out.

More prosaically, armed police, as the Met (and Londoners) are all too well aware, are as fallible as the next person. But if you don't want to be shot by one of the UK's relatively few armed policemen, then cases of mistaken identity to one side, it can generally be avoided by not steaming along the pavement in your 4x4 catapulting pedestrians over walls and under buses, stabbing a policeman and then running into Parliament.

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1309 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Jaw dropping. You don't tazer people who may be wearing what your suggesting they might have thought he was wearing for the fairly obvious reason that passing large amounts of electrical current through such things (or their wearers) has a tendency not to help the situation. Not always but unless you know specifically what you're dealing with then you can't rule it out.

Pretty sure there wasn't any time to tazer him anyway. There were loads of witnesses, several dead and an extreme threat of loss of life. I think it is highly likely that lethal force was the only thing preventing further loss of life.

quote:
More prosaically, armed police, as the Met (and Londoners) are all too well aware, are as fallible as the next person. But if you don't want to be shot by one of the UK's relatively few armed policemen, then cases of mistaken identity to one side, it can generally be avoided by not steaming along the pavement in your 4x4 catapulting pedestrians over walls and under buses, stabbing a policeman and then running into Parliament.
Yes. And personally I've found the media coverage to be quite measured (leaving out the pudding-faced bullshit utterings of Tommy Robinson, the pseudo-journalism of Hopkins and the like).

To me the problem is when we move swiftly into the space of "oh well we obviously don't have a very big IS cell in the UK because they're using low-tech things like cars to do these kinds of attacks" that drives me mad.

It might well turn out to be inspired by IS, but at the moment we know jack-shit. What do we gain from speculating about the relative skills of terrorists from an Islamic group who may, or may not, be involved in this event?

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9569 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

 - Posted      Profile for Anselmina     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Yeah right, and I'm hung like Mandingo.

What odds are you giving cheesy, I might have a tenner?

Let's face facts. He will turn out to be a member of the "religion of peace" and if he hadn't been in this country at least five (four of worth) people would still be alive.

I think you must be quite a young person? People of forty-five and over will remember that the terrorist threat in the olden days - on mainland Britain (I use the term especially) - was always from Ireland, particularly the Black North. A very large percentile of Irish terrorists where, therefore by birth, British.

Of course, those terrorists were white, ostensibly Christian, had names like Fred and Joe, and spoke excellent English. Maybe that's what makes the difference?

Of course, in those days even racists had enough intelligence to know that sending all the Irish 'home' wouldn't solve the problem of a handful of fanatical, violent thugs planting a bomb. It seems our class of racist, these days, has gone down hill rather. But interbreeding does that, I understand.

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 9901 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Yeah right, and I'm hung like Mandingo.

What odds are you giving cheesy, I might have a tenner?

Let's face facts. He will turn out to be a member of the "religion of peace" and if he hadn't been in this country at least five (four of worth) people would still be alive.

I think you must be quite a young person? People of forty-five and over will remember that the terrorist threat in the olden days - on mainland Britain (I use the term especially) - was always from Ireland, particularly the Black North. A very large percentile of Irish terrorists where, therefore by birth, British.

Of course, those terrorists were white, ostensibly Christian, had names like Fred and Joe, and spoke excellent English. Maybe that's what makes the difference?

Of course, in those days even racists had enough intelligence to know that sending all the Irish 'home' wouldn't solve the problem of a handful of fanatical, violent thugs planting a bomb. It seems our class of racist, these days, has gone down hill rather. But interbreeding does that, I understand.

Oh I don't know. Back in the mid-1970's and early 1980's my brother from my mother's first marriage, to a Belfast Irishman who was killed in the war, lived in Birmingham. In the wake of the pub bombings they changed their daughter's school and surname because of the abuse and bullying she got. Eventually he got another job and they left the area. At the first opportunity she left for Australia and hasn't been back, except for one brief visit, in thirty years.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 23848 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And, of course, the last significant attack on British democracy was the murder of an MP last year. That murderer wasn't a Muslim or acting under the inspiration of Islam either. Though, perhaps deano agrees with several groups who have stated that Jo Cox had it coming for her support for immigrants.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31854 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Though, perhaps deano agrees with several groups who have stated that Jo Cox had it coming for her support for immigrants.

I think you might be expecting rather a lot of the brainless oaf, consistency isn't his strong point.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

Posts: 9569 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:
Selfies. Really?

Journalists have been doing exactly the same thing for decades. And they're not "selfies" unless you're in them.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18017 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Let's face facts. He will turn out to be a member of the "religion of peace" and if he hadn't been in this country at least five (four of worth) people would still be alive.

While we're facing facts, let's examine your apparent assumption that he wasn't from the UK.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18017 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025

 - Posted      Profile for Helen-Eva   Email Helen-Eva   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Turns out it was an Islamist attack, which is what I'd assumed once I knew that a cat had been used as a weapon on Westminster Bridge.

Was going to use the rofl emoji there but thinking it would not be appropriate. Had a cat been used one would probably have attributed to Satanists.

I may be over-tired but I really did spend quite some time wondering how a cat was used as a weapon and also whether it was Larry the cat from Downing Street.

Yesterday was just weird. Everyone having to stay inside their buildings, sirens, helicopters overhead, half the roads closed. But today London is pretty much bumbling along OK so I guess we'll cope.

[Edited for typo - I really am tired]

[ 23. March 2017, 11:47: Message edited by: Helen-Eva ]

--------------------
I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

Posts: 581 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged
Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

 - Posted      Profile for Liopleurodon   Email Liopleurodon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Basically we've had worse. Don't get me wrong: this is obviously horrific for anyone directly involved. But the fact is that any big, culturally significant capital city is vulnerable to groups of people who are pissed off to the point of getting violent about it. Growing up in the 1980s I think I just absorbed the fact that the IRA were out there and would occasionally blow stuff up.

But crucially, getting killed in a terrorist attack is one way to die out of a million and one more likely scenarios. When terrorists strike they take advantage of one of our cognitive biases that suggests that because something is in the news and in our faces it's more likely to happen to us. They don't want us to see what a tiny threat they really are. Again, obviously it isn't going to feel that way if it's you or your loved ones caught up in it. But I am fully aware that pizza is more likely to kill me than terrorism, and I still ate it last night.

--------------------
Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Attacks like these are not attacks on democracy, nor attacks on any foundations of a nation or society. To suggest otherwise gives the attacks status they simply don't have. The attack, as reported here, suggests that it brought out the goodness, decency and strength of average people, showing in fact, that the country is stronger or at least as strong.

Except perhaps for doufusses like pineapple deano.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10627 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Let's face facts. He will turn out to be a member of the "religion of peace" and if he hadn't been in this country at least five (four of worth) people would still be alive.

While we're facing facts, let's examine your apparent assumption that he wasn't from the UK.
He was from the UK.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12421 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Let's face facts. He will turn out to be a member of the "religion of peace" and if he hadn't been in this country at least five (four of worth) people would still be alive.

While we're facing facts, let's examine your apparent assumption that he wasn't from the UK.
He was from the UK.
I know. That's exactly why I'm raising it.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18017 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
posted by Mark Wuntoo
quote:
I also am sick of the coverage and the point-scoring by the likes of Theresa May.
What point scoring? Mrs May stood in Downing Street and gave a measured response, deploring the action, regretting the loss of life and injuries and thanking the police and emergency services for their work. She also reiterated that, in common with every other administration for the last 40 years, hers would not be bullied by the cowardly action of the perpetrator of the outrage.
quote:
The police actually stated that the man was 'inspired by international terrorism' - that does not necessarily make him a terrorist - but it suits the purposes of some to call it that.

It is an act of terror to mow down pedestrians with your car, to then attempt to force your way into a guarded building and to stab many times an unarmed police officer who attempts to stop you: those actions would make ANYONE a terrorist, regardless of so-called cause. I cannot imagine why you would have any objection to calling a spade a spade, nor can I imagine the supposed "purposes" to which you refer - but feel free to enlighten us.
quote:
It seems to me that the panic of the actual event was worsened by the sensationalist (that may not be the right word for the response but (as Rolyn said) it was OTT.

I hope you are referring to the blanket news coverage here and not the actions of the emergency services; if not, unless you were there I don't think you are qualified to comment about any "panic". Of course people will panic if they are caught up in an event such as this - that is at least part of the motivation behind such attacks. As for remarks made by journalists (perhaps Laura Kuenssberg?) about people not knowing what to do within the Parliament buildings, I think you'll find that officials, from the Deputy Speaker downwards, all moved into an obviously well-rehearsed pattern.
quote:
I think there are questions to be answered about the shooting of the attacker, too. Where was the tazer?
So tell us, how would you go about disarming an attacker armed with several knives who suddenly comes at you in a furious assault, eh? First, a Taser is not a weapon to be drawn and fired quickly like a hand-gun; second, the release of an electrical charge into modern explosives is going to cause an explosion.
quote:
Whatever they thought might be round the waste of the man or in the car (I assume they were thinking of those possibilities) and whatever they thought about the pssibility of an accomplice/s it would have been better to have immobilised the man and kept him on the ground guarded by suitable weapons whilst they did their investigations.

Twenty-twenty hindsight from the comfort of "Somewhere else" is a wonderful thing. If you are unfortunate enough to be involved in an incident such as this you don't have the luxury of time to debate which 'measured' response you should make: it is a situation for instant action, and the best you can do is to train people so that they can protect themselves and, in the case of police, others.

Yes, the policeman who died may have thought the attacker had a waist-belt packed with explosive: modern explosives aren't necessarily bulky, and nor can you tell from the outside whether a car has been rigged to explode either. However, since the policeman died no one is able to ask what flashed through his mind before he had to fight for his life.
quote:
If it turns out that the man was mentally ill - well, say no more. But perhaps we will never know.

Well of course he was mentally ill - or are you suggesting it is the action of a sane, rational person (holding whatever belief or none) to plough into unarmed tourists before ramming into cast iron railings with your vehicle and then rushing at a policeman with multiple knives?

Whether or not any investigation will be able to come up with answers is highly questionable - in reality because they cannot be an acceptable motive for taking the actions that caused the death and injury of so many yesterday.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4547 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673

 - Posted      Profile for Mark Wuntoo   Email Mark Wuntoo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Attacks like these are not attacks on democracy, nor attacks on any foundations of a nation or society. To suggest otherwise gives the attacks status they simply don't have. The attack, as reported here, suggests that it brought out the goodness, decency and strength of average people, showing in fact, that the country is stronger or at least as strong.

Except perhaps for doufusses like pineapple deano.

Thanks for stating this. I've wanted to say it but had no idea how to start. Exactly right. It's part of what I meant when I suggested that some people are seeking to make gain out of it for their own purposes (I'm sure they are seriously against what happened - just blind to what they are saying, perhaps.

--------------------
Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

Posts: 1909 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Except that if the attacker was inspired by Daesh - and their claim of 'responsibility' doesn't make that any more or less likely - it is a fact that they disapprove of elected democracy and so an attack of the Houses of Parliament is indeed an attack on a symbol of democratic rule.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4547 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Attacks like these are not attacks on democracy, nor attacks on any foundations of a nation or society. To suggest otherwise gives the attacks status they simply don't have. The attack, as reported here, suggests that it brought out the goodness, decency and strength of average people, showing in fact, that the country is stronger or at least as strong.

Except perhaps for doufusses like pineapple deano.

Thanks for stating this. I've wanted to say it but had no idea how to start. Exactly right. It's part of what I meant when I suggested that some people are seeking to make gain out of it for their own purposes (I'm sure they are seriously against what happened - just blind to what they are saying, perhaps.
I think you're both woefully confused in your analysis and L'organist is far sharper.

It doesn't give "status" in the sense you're talking about to acknowledge what the target was. It only gives that kind of "status" if you say that the target was genuinely under threat. Saying that democracy is being attacked is completely different to saying that democracy is under a meaningful threat.

If I take a small stick and start furiously bashing it against the side of an armoured tank, whether or not I am attacking the tank is completely separate from whether or not I am being effective.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18017 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Except that if the attacker was inspired by Daesh - and their claim of 'responsibility' doesn't make that any more or less likely - it is a fact that they disapprove of elected democracy and so an attack of the Houses of Parliament is indeed an attack on a symbol of democratic rule.

No, not even that I think. People have killed others because they don't like Mondays, because they think some movement or cult or group has the answer. I don't care if they are followers of Jim Jones or are hashashin (assassins). It doesn't matter who they think they are, it matters who we understand them to be. The person who engineered this attack is dangerous maniac who thought something about himself. But it's not right and it's not true. Unless we let it be. So let's not.

I am not fond of pictures of such things, but there were a couple of the aftermath that very much were the reason I posted about this, and the admirable behaviour and conduct of the regular everyday people. (no, not the selfies)

[ 23. March 2017, 15:09: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

Posts: 10627 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools