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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Are young people put off church by vestments?
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
don't know about the Anglican confirmation ceremony but in an RC confirmation ceremony the bishop was supposed to tap the candidate on the cheek to remind the person that they now had to stand up for Christ against the various assaults of the world and the devil. Much play was always made amongst the candidates about the bishop hitting or slapping or even ,I suppose 'buffeting' the candidates. Since the changes after Vatican 2 this detail has been changed to a handshake.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
don't know about the Anglican confirmation ceremony but in an RC confirmation ceremony the bishop was supposed to tap the candidate on the cheek to remind the person that they now had to stand up for Christ against the various assaults of the world and the devil. Much play was always made amongst the candidates about the bishop hitting or slapping or even ,I suppose 'buffeting' the candidates. Since the changes after Vatican 2 this detail has been changed to a handshake.
Yes. This still happened in Anglican confirmations as recently as the 1990s. I can't speak for current practice.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Yes. This still happened in Anglican confirmations as recently as the 1990s. I can't speak for current practice.
Did it? Where? I've never seen or heard of such a thing. It's not in the 1662 BCP. It's weird enough that I'd have remembered it if it had happened at mine, or if I'd seen it anywhere else.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Yes. This still happened in Anglican confirmations as recently as the 1990s. I can't speak for current practice.
Did it? Where? I've never seen or heard of such a thing. It's not in the 1662 BCP. It's weird enough that I'd have remembered it if it had happened at mine, or if I'd seen it anywhere else.
It was done at my own Anglican confirmation in the Diocese of NECA in the Province of the West Indies, and at all confirmations at which I served as a teenager.
ETA that it was as Augustine said: there was always much ado over it among the confirmation candidates before the event.
[ 12. November 2017, 22:06: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
... Don't remember any cautions about Brylcreem, but we were warned about the 'buffett,' ie, the bishop slapping each candidate on the cheek. ...
I assume that's a joke to frighten people, like Evelyn Waugh's sacred monkeys in the Vatican, and not some weird transatlantic custom.
No, the slap on the cheek was in the Roman Pontifical, which our parish followed as closely as possible.
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
'I stand amazed'. I thought it must be a joke. There's no mention of any such thing in either 1662 or Common Worship, which has regularised quite a lot of things that some people have been doing for years but were a bit under the radar.
As far as I am aware, this extra-liturgical oddity has never been part of how things are done in England. It would require the connivance of both bishop and parish if anyone was minded to try it on. Not sure I can imagine what might happen if a parish secretary were to ring up the diocesan office and say 'Father has asked me to check with you that the bishop will be happy to slap all the candidates on the face after he/she has confirmed them'.
Whatever might happen in other provinces, has any Shipmate encountered it here?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
No.
But them Roaming Carflicks are a Funny Lot - there's no telling wot they might get up to..... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
I was confirmed around 1960 by the saintly Bishop George Bell of Chichester, whose reputation has been more recently been tarnished by an accusation of impropriety which I am completely unable to evaluate – but I know he was a saintly man, a peacemaker. And he most certainly did not buffet any of us.
I presume that buffetry was copied, like so much other Roman ceremonial, by the more Romanizing sections of Anglicanism, but never made any inroads elsewhere. The fact that it is not mentioned in 1662 (or 1549 or 1552...) is no surprise, since rubrics about ritual actions are sparse and far between in the old BCP. And CW leaves a great deal to be decided by local custom. It makes no specifications about reverencing the altar, or the Blessed Sacrament, for instance; it only ever mentions incense in passages quoted from Scripture (it does amuse me that Evangelicals object so strongly to incense, when it was so incontrovertibly a prominent feature of Jewish Temple worship!). But it doesn't forbid them either.
I can't say I would like to see buffeting used more widely!
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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
O, I don't know - I can think of a few people at Our Place who might benefit from being lined up in front of a Bishop for a good 'buffeting'!
Mind you, if it were done in today's abuse-aware climate, the Bishop might soon find him/herself up before the beak (and possibly sent to the jug).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by keibat:
(it does amuse me that Evangelicals object so strongly to incense,
I'm not sure that they do any more. Unless they are the type of Evangelical who objects to everything (who are a small minority but increasingly vocal).
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
O, I don't know - I can think of a few people at Our Place who might benefit from being lined up in front of a Bishop for a good 'buffeting'!
I can think of a few Bishops I'd like to see lined up...
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I know of one or two churches around here which now use incense - on a small scale - from time to time, even though it's never been part of their tradition.
Well, not quite never - I was asked to serve as thurifer at the funeral of a gent who came to Our Place occasionally for (as he put it) 'some proper religion'.
His Own Place - a thriving, Low-to-MOTR village church, 900 years old, albeit much rebuilt and restored - was packed for his funeral, at which holy water and incense were used, probably for the first time since the Reformation.
Not a 'Protestant Coff' was to be heard, except from a choir lady, who apologised (bless her) for having The Mother And Father Of All Colds, but who still turned out for the service.
/tangent alert/
The Team Vicar became somewhat emotional during his sermon, and signalled for a glass of water. For various reasons, all that was available was the clearly-labelled bottle of Holy Water I'd brought along, so a glass of this was duly administered - and the TV saw where it came from. How he kept from laughing, I know not, but he said (some time later) that it must have been Good Stuff, as he hadn't had a sore throat or a cold all winter!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
O, I don't know - I can think of a few people at Our Place who might benefit from being lined up in front of a Bishop for a good 'buffeting'!
I can think of a few Bishops I'd like to see lined up...
There are times and places for bashing Bishops but a Confirmation service isn't one of them...
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
There are times and places for bashing Bishops but a Confirmation service isn't one of them...
Do you need the same bottle to wash your mouth out? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Does anyone else know the limerick:
There once was a Bishop of Birmingham?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
This one?
Probably NSFW, so be warned!
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
This one?
Probably NSFW, so be warned!
IJ
I know a similar one -- it goes on for several verses.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
There once was a Bishop of Birmingham
Used to rape all the girls while confirming them.
To sounds of applause
He would pull down their drawers
And insert the episcopal worm in them.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
...who buggered young boys while confirming 'em
While reading from Job
He'd lift up his robe
And pump the episcopal sperm in'em
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Disgusting.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Rape and child abuse jokes? Seriously?
No. Just limericks
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Apologies, O Hostly One - my fault, for providing a link....
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I, too, apologise
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Yes. This still happened in Anglican confirmations as recently as the 1990s. I can't speak for current practice.
Did it? Where? I've never seen or heard of such a thing. It's not in the 1662 BCP. It's weird enough that I'd have remembered it if it had happened at mine, or if I'd seen it anywhere else.
nor me
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Ahem.
Reverting to vestments, I wonder how many of the multitudes of confirmands of yore were put off by the Bishop's vestments?
The Bishop of Dudley appears to be wearing the traditional vesture of a bishop (he's the chap on the left), similar to what our Bishop wore when I was confirmed sometime last century... ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I, too, apologise
Yes, and me.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
Bishop's Finger commented:
quote:
Reverting to vestments, I wonder how many of the multitudes of confirmands of yore were put off by the Bishop's vestments?
The Bishop of Dudley appears to be wearing the traditional vesture of a bishop (
Two points:
1) 'The young' [i e of today] is equally as helpful a categorization as 'the young of yore' [OK, BF was referring to 'confirmands of yore']. Crucial issue: folk are different. Even within the 'same' category, folk are different; and when the category is one of biological + cultural age [the two being inseparable], folk are very different.
2) Lots of bishops continue to wear the chimere [how does one pronounce that word?!] as choir dress for a variety of nonsacramental occasions – look at the recent photo ops from the Primates' meeting. It's rather cool, and very distinctively Anglican
Edit (beyond the job description really, but we're just nice like that): UBB flaw was messing up the dramatic impact]
[ 17. November 2017, 20:05: Message edited by: Zappa ]
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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
Posts: 93 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Wikipedia to the rescue!
The accent can be on either the first or the second syllable, as you see.
Point taken re the somewhat fluid definition of 'young', BTW.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Choir dress, Canterbury rig or convocation robes are other names for that get-up. Very Anglican.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Ahem.
Reverting to vestments, I wonder how many of the multitudes of confirmands of yore were put off by the Bishop's vestments?
The Bishop of Dudley appears to be wearing the traditional vesture of a bishop (he's the chap on the left), similar to what our Bishop wore when I was confirmed sometime last century...
IJ
Standard rig for the Church of Ireland bishes on the left. The poncy sugar-icing Christmas-tree effect on the right (she said puckishly) would, with perhaps a couple of exceptions already mentioned elsewhere in Eccles, cause actual coronaries in most parts of the CofI - especially North of the border.
Liturgically coloured book-marks for the Bible on the lectern is about as decorated as it's allowed to get in a lot of places!
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
The Dioceses' of Cork, Cloyne and Ross, Ferns, Cashel, Ossory, Leighlin, Lismore and Waterford, Limerick, Ardfert, Aghadoe, Clonfert, Kilfenora, Emly, Kilmacduagh and Killaloe, Dublin and Glendaough, Tuam, Killala and Achonry better start updating their coronary care centres.
You'll no doubt be able to work out from that where the dividing line is ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Further edited to add:
You could - at a great stretch - include Down and Dromore in that, but only when he's abroad.
[ 17. November 2017, 12:26: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Choir dress, Canterbury rig or convocation robes are other names for that get-up. Very Anglican.
As worn in the House of Lords, although with black chimere.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yes, he does look rather young to be a Bishop..... ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Hmm. On reflection, it's me that's getting older (and crabbier... ).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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