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» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Ecclesiantics   » Are young people put off church by vestments? (Page 5)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Are young people put off church by vestments?
Forthview
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don't know about the Anglican confirmation ceremony but in an RC confirmation ceremony the bishop was supposed to tap the candidate on the cheek to remind the person that they now had to stand up for Christ against the various assaults of the world and the devil. Much play was always made amongst the candidates about the bishop hitting or slapping or even ,I suppose 'buffeting' the candidates. Since the changes after Vatican 2 this detail has been changed to a handshake.
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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
don't know about the Anglican confirmation ceremony but in an RC confirmation ceremony the bishop was supposed to tap the candidate on the cheek to remind the person that they now had to stand up for Christ against the various assaults of the world and the devil. Much play was always made amongst the candidates about the bishop hitting or slapping or even ,I suppose 'buffeting' the candidates. Since the changes after Vatican 2 this detail has been changed to a handshake.

Yes. This still happened in Anglican confirmations as recently as the 1990s. I can't speak for current practice.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Yes. This still happened in Anglican confirmations as recently as the 1990s. I can't speak for current practice.

Did it? Where? I've never seen or heard of such a thing. It's not in the 1662 BCP. It's weird enough that I'd have remembered it if it had happened at mine, or if I'd seen it anywhere else.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Yes. This still happened in Anglican confirmations as recently as the 1990s. I can't speak for current practice.

Did it? Where? I've never seen or heard of such a thing. It's not in the 1662 BCP. It's weird enough that I'd have remembered it if it had happened at mine, or if I'd seen it anywhere else.
It was done at my own Anglican confirmation in the Diocese of NECA in the Province of the West Indies, and at all confirmations at which I served as a teenager.

ETA that it was as Augustine said: there was always much ado over it among the confirmation candidates before the event.

[ 12. November 2017, 22:06: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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georgiaboy
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
... Don't remember any cautions about Brylcreem, but we were warned about the 'buffett,' ie, the bishop slapping each candidate on the cheek. ...

I assume that's a joke to frighten people, like Evelyn Waugh's sacred monkeys in the Vatican, and not some weird transatlantic custom.
No, the slap on the cheek was in the Roman Pontifical, which our parish followed as closely as possible.

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You can't retire from a calling.

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Enoch
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'I stand amazed'. I thought it must be a joke. There's no mention of any such thing in either 1662 or Common Worship, which has regularised quite a lot of things that some people have been doing for years but were a bit under the radar.

As far as I am aware, this extra-liturgical oddity has never been part of how things are done in England. It would require the connivance of both bishop and parish if anyone was minded to try it on. Not sure I can imagine what might happen if a parish secretary were to ring up the diocesan office and say 'Father has asked me to check with you that the bishop will be happy to slap all the candidates on the face after he/she has confirmed them'.

Whatever might happen in other provinces, has any Shipmate encountered it here?

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Bishops Finger
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No.

But them Roaming Carflicks are a Funny Lot - there's no telling wot they might get up to..... [Two face]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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keibat
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I was confirmed around 1960 by the saintly Bishop George Bell of Chichester, whose reputation has been more recently been tarnished by an accusation of impropriety which I am completely unable to evaluate – but I know he was a saintly man, a peacemaker. And he most certainly did not buffet any of us.

I presume that buffetry was copied, like so much other Roman ceremonial, by the more Romanizing sections of Anglicanism, but never made any inroads elsewhere. The fact that it is not mentioned in 1662 (or 1549 or 1552...) is no surprise, since rubrics about ritual actions are sparse and far between in the old BCP. And CW leaves a great deal to be decided by local custom. It makes no specifications about reverencing the altar, or the Blessed Sacrament, for instance; it only ever mentions incense in passages quoted from Scripture (it does amuse me that Evangelicals object so strongly to incense, when it was so incontrovertibly a prominent feature of Jewish Temple worship!). But it doesn't forbid them either.

I can't say I would like to see buffeting used more widely!

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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim

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Bishops Finger
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O, I don't know - I can think of a few people at Our Place who might benefit from being lined up in front of a Bishop for a good 'buffeting'!

Mind you, if it were done in today's abuse-aware climate, the Bishop might soon find him/herself up before the beak (and possibly sent to the jug).

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by keibat:
(it does amuse me that Evangelicals object so strongly to incense,

I'm not sure that they do any more. Unless they are the type of Evangelical who objects to everything (who are a small minority but increasingly vocal).
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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
O, I don't know - I can think of a few people at Our Place who might benefit from being lined up in front of a Bishop for a good 'buffeting'!

I can think of a few Bishops I'd like to see lined up...

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Bishops Finger
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I know of one or two churches around here which now use incense - on a small scale - from time to time, even though it's never been part of their tradition.

Well, not quite never - I was asked to serve as thurifer at the funeral of a gent who came to Our Place occasionally for (as he put it) 'some proper religion'.

His Own Place - a thriving, Low-to-MOTR village church, 900 years old, albeit much rebuilt and restored - was packed for his funeral, at which holy water and incense were used, probably for the first time since the Reformation.

Not a 'Protestant Coff' was to be heard, except from a choir lady, who apologised (bless her) for having The Mother And Father Of All Colds, but who still turned out for the service.

/tangent alert/

The Team Vicar became somewhat emotional during his sermon, and signalled for a glass of water. For various reasons, all that was available was the clearly-labelled bottle of Holy Water I'd brought along, so a glass of this was duly administered - and the TV saw where it came from. How he kept from laughing, I know not, but he said (some time later) that it must have been Good Stuff, as he hadn't had a sore throat or a cold all winter!

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
O, I don't know - I can think of a few people at Our Place who might benefit from being lined up in front of a Bishop for a good 'buffeting'!

I can think of a few Bishops I'd like to see lined up...
There are times and places for bashing Bishops but a Confirmation service isn't one of them...

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
There are times and places for bashing Bishops but a Confirmation service isn't one of them...

Do you need the same bottle to wash your mouth out? [Killing me]

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Robert Armin

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Does anyone else know the limerick:

There once was a Bishop of Birmingham?

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Bishops Finger
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This one?

Probably NSFW, so be warned!

[Devil]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
This one?

Probably NSFW, so be warned!

[Devil]

IJ

I know a similar one -- it goes on for several verses.
[Eek!]

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Gee D
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There once was a Bishop of Birmingham
Used to rape all the girls while confirming them.
To sounds of applause
He would pull down their drawers
And insert the episcopal worm in them.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Albertus
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...who buggered young boys while confirming 'em
While reading from Job
He'd lift up his robe
And pump the episcopal sperm in'em

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Arethosemyfeet
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Rape and child abuse jokes? Seriously?
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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Disgusting.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Rape and child abuse jokes? Seriously?

No. Just limericks

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Zappa
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Hosting
Given the horrendous reports of abuse that are emerging from around the world, let's stick to vestments, okay?
/hosting

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Bishops Finger
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Apologies, O Hostly One - my fault, for providing a link....

[Hot and Hormonal]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Gee D
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I, too, apologise

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Yes. This still happened in Anglican confirmations as recently as the 1990s. I can't speak for current practice.

Did it? Where? I've never seen or heard of such a thing. It's not in the 1662 BCP. It's weird enough that I'd have remembered it if it had happened at mine, or if I'd seen it anywhere else.
nor me

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Bishops Finger
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Ahem.

Reverting to vestments, I wonder how many of the multitudes of confirmands of yore were put off by the Bishop's vestments?

The Bishop of Dudley appears to be wearing the traditional vesture of a bishop (he's the chap on the left), similar to what our Bishop wore when I was confirmed sometime last century... [Help]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I, too, apologise

Yes, and me.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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keibat
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Bishop's Finger commented:
quote:
Reverting to vestments, I wonder how many of the multitudes of confirmands of yore were put off by the Bishop's vestments?

The Bishop of Dudley appears to be wearing the traditional vesture of a bishop (

Two points:
1) 'The young' [i e of today] is equally as helpful a categorization as 'the young of yore' [OK, BF was referring to 'confirmands of yore']. Crucial issue: folk are different. Even within the 'same' category, folk are different; and when the category is one of biological + cultural age [the two being inseparable], folk are very different.

2) Lots of bishops continue to wear the chimere [how does one pronounce that word?!] as choir dress for a variety of nonsacramental occasions – look at the recent photo ops from the Primates' meeting. It's rather cool, and very distinctively Anglican [Devil]

Edit (beyond the job description really, but we're just nice like that): UBB flaw was messing up the dramatic impact]

[ 17. November 2017, 20:05: Message edited by: Zappa ]

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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim

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Bishops Finger
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Wikipedia to the rescue!

The accent can be on either the first or the second syllable, as you see.

Point taken re the somewhat fluid definition of 'young', BTW.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Gee D
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Choir dress, Canterbury rig or convocation robes are other names for that get-up. Very Anglican.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Ahem.

Reverting to vestments, I wonder how many of the multitudes of confirmands of yore were put off by the Bishop's vestments?

The Bishop of Dudley appears to be wearing the traditional vesture of a bishop (he's the chap on the left), similar to what our Bishop wore when I was confirmed sometime last century... [Help]

IJ

Standard rig for the Church of Ireland bishes on the left. The poncy sugar-icing Christmas-tree effect on the right (she said puckishly) would, with perhaps a couple of exceptions already mentioned elsewhere in Eccles, cause actual coronaries in most parts of the CofI - especially North of the border. [Eek!]

Liturgically coloured book-marks for the Bible on the lectern is about as decorated as it's allowed to get in a lot of places!

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
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The Dioceses' of Cork, Cloyne and Ross, Ferns, Cashel, Ossory, Leighlin, Lismore and Waterford, Limerick, Ardfert, Aghadoe, Clonfert, Kilfenora, Emly, Kilmacduagh and Killaloe, Dublin and Glendaough, Tuam, Killala and Achonry better start updating their coronary care centres.

You'll no doubt be able to work out from that where the dividing line is [Biased]

Further edited to add:
You could - at a great stretch - include Down and Dromore in that, but only when he's abroad.

[ 17. November 2017, 12:26: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Choir dress, Canterbury rig or convocation robes are other names for that get-up. Very Anglican.

As worn in the House of Lords, although with black chimere.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

The Bishop of Dudley appears to be wearing the traditional vesture of a bishop (he's the chap on the left), similar to what our Bishop wore when I was confirmed sometime last century... [Help]

IJ

That's not a bishop ... that's a prep school prefect in dressups

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Yes, he does look rather young to be a Bishop..... [Paranoid]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Hmm. On reflection, it's me that's getting older (and crabbier... [Help] ).

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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