homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Homeschooling pros and cons. (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Homeschooling pros and cons.
Emma Louise

Storm in a teapot
# 3571

 - Posted      Profile for Emma Louise   Email Emma Louise   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think that shared cultural background is actually a good point Think. When people sit and reminisce at Uni about crazes or tv programmes or with school friends about certain teachers etc. Also I am appreciating our family being part of the local community through pre-school and church, school is a large part of that when you are school aged.

I do like the idea of being able to pursue things away from targets, with a lot more flexibility and creativity and 4 seems so young to be just one of 30. (Pre school have 1 to 5, its a huge leap to being part of a big class.) However people locally all really like our local school. If it wasn't such a good school that would make a difference (and I didn't have health issues that make full time home-schooling difficult).

I can imagine if you had a very good network of home schoolers it could be fantastic. It is in fact some of the people I know here that put me off. Very well meaning and lovely individually but seem very black and white in thinking that homeschool = always good, school = always bad. Quite a few are anti-vaxers and I heard a group near me hounded out someone who *used* to be a social worker simply due to her background and their distrust of social workers.

I used to teach in a grammar school and if my child passed the entrance I would far rather her attend there than homeschool as at that level the breadth of specialist teaching is fantastic and not something I could provide. It would be different if the local school was awful.

I certainly wouldn't want my daughter to just dance until 18 and then decide what to do, I do want the foundations academically to all be there personally. It's at primary I can see more benefit. Other countries don't start formal schooling as young as we do and there is so much learning through play you can do. My daughter is already picking up number just through counting everyday things rather than formal learning.

We were at a function at a local independent school. Amazing grounds and facilities and such small classes. That again could influence me in a different direction if it was at all financially viable! (Despite me working in state sector and thinking I would never consider private ed).

Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884

 - Posted      Profile for angelfish   Email angelfish   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What you say about independent schools, Emma Louise, strikes a chord with me. Sometimes I feel very envious of my wealthier friends who can afford to send little Tarquin to prep school and the Mothers Earth who have the patience and creatiity to homeschool. "He would just get lost in a class of 30" they say, and i immediately imagine my soon to be four year old drowning in a sea of eager and more confident five year olds, come September.

But then when i am not premenstrual, i remember that all our children are jolly lucky to have any schooling available to them at all, and with parental support even a mediocre school can provide an adequate education. Also people, including children, are amazingly robust and adaptable, particularly given loving and stable parenting.

I do feel that the "preparing them for the real world" question is false. It's not as though they are in hermetically sealed bubbles duing the school years and then are suddenly vomited out at 16 or 18 and real life begins. Life and experience begin at birth and their personalties will be shaped in part by their education experience but also by
loads of other things as well. It's daft to worry too much about it really, because i bet you never wonder whether you would be different, had you only had a different education. You are who you are, partly because of choices your parents made and partly just because, and the same will be true for our children.

[ 09. June 2012, 20:41: Message edited by: angelfish ]

--------------------
"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Wise word angelfish.

[Overused]

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Full Circle
Shipmate
# 15398

 - Posted      Profile for Full Circle     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I had a short period (months)of home schooling when I was eight and hated it. It changed my relationship with my mother: and made a battle ground between us that lasted for years. I went to multiple schools (from large comprehensives to small international schools) all of them were better than home schooling. It really is one of my worst memories of childhood.

--------------------
Beware the monocausal fallacy (Anon)

Posts: 232 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged
PerkyEars

slightly distracted
# 9577

 - Posted      Profile for PerkyEars   Email PerkyEars   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm going to be homeschooling my daughter starting this year, when she finishes preschool. In preperation for that I've been getting involved in the homeschooling community. Some people have been supportive and some have been quite openly hostile to it. It's funny how in the UK educational choice in an area were people feel free to openly and rudely dissaprove of a families choices, whether those are home school, private school or state school.

These are our reasons for chosing it for our daughter:

- bright kids can learn at their own pace without being subjected to a class focussed on the lowest common denominator. Both me and my husband were bored out of our skulls in school. My little girl is a september child, and can read and write in a preschool class where only about 5 out of 30 can write their own names. Why should I put her through a reception year where she will be drilled in phonics she already knows.

- a healthier social environment. Homeschooled kids get to hang out with a mixed age group in the homeschool community, which seems to lead to better adjusted kids and less bullying than herding them into peer groups. The atmosphere at a homeschooling meet is massively different to that of a playground and the kids noticeably more relaxed.

Interestingly enough, I've had many people disagree with my choice, but NOT ONE of them has been able to say that school is not boring and full of bullies! Their arguments always seem to boil down to 'school is shit and that's where children learn to cope with life being shit, so your child will not cope with life'. I could not disagree more that being subjected to bad things is a good basis for growth and learning, so I'm secure in my choice.

The other argument I hear a lot boils down to 'school used to be shit but it's a bit better now'. I think this is wishful thinking.

That said - I would not recommend it if the family is a controlling and dysfuncitonal one. There are children who's parents are not people they should be spending a lot of time with. For me, school stunk, but I'm VERY glad I wasn't homeschooled myself because my family wasn't the healthiest place for me to be and school was a breath of different air.

Posts: 532 | From: Bristol | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Louise:

I can imagine if you had a very good network of home schoolers it could be fantastic. It is in fact some of the people I know here that put me off. Very well meaning and lovely individually but seem very black and white in thinking that homeschool = always good, school = always bad. Quite a few are anti-vaxers and I heard a group near me hounded out someone who *used* to be a social worker simply due to her background and their distrust of social workers.

Yes, I share that experience. It's when home-schooling becomes all about what you're afraid of, what you're running away from-- rather than what you're drawn to, what you're adding-- that it becomes negative IMHO. Should be more about what you're "for" than what you're "against".

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884

 - Posted      Profile for angelfish   Email angelfish   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PerkyEars:
It's funny how in the UK educational choice in an area were people feel free to openly and rudely dissaprove of a families choices, whether those are home school, private school or state ... NOT ONE of them has been able to say that school is not boring and full of bulles!... 'school used to be shit but it's a bit better now'. I think this is wishful thinking... I would not recommend [homeschooling] if the family is a controlling and dysfuncitonal one.

It's not funny that you feel free to openly and rudely disapprove of parents who choose (or who can't help but go with) mainstream education - unless they admit they are controlling and dysfunctional of course.

--------------------
"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Full Circle
Shipmate
# 15398

 - Posted      Profile for Full Circle     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PerkyEars:
daughter:

That said - I would not recommend it if thefamily is a controlling and dysfuncitonal one. There are children who's parents are not people they should be spending a lot of time with. For me, school stunk, but I'm VERY glad I wasn't homeschooled myself because my family wasn't the healthiest place for me to be and school was a breath of different air. [/QB]

I just want to say (re my quote above)that I do not think my family was dysfunctional (or no more than any happy family) and it was certainly not controlling - actually I think the main reason that home schooling did not work was that my mother cared whether I was learning and that one to one attention basically gave me much less freedom to learn at my own pace than being in a large class where I could pace myself to a reasonable extent. For instance, I remember at primary deciding which projects were 'silly' and which were worth working on.

--------------------
Beware the monocausal fallacy (Anon)

Posts: 232 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged
angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884

 - Posted      Profile for angelfish   Email angelfish   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Full Circle, that is basically why I have decided not to homeschool. i just know what an insufferable didact I would be, and I know that my son would not respond well to it, but I also know that he will need a lot of help to get the most out of his state Primary school

--------------------
"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Full Circle
Shipmate
# 15398

 - Posted      Profile for Full Circle     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry to double post but I also wanted to comment on this

quote:
Originally posted by PerkyEars:

These are our reasons for chosing it for our daughter:

Interestingly enough, I've had many people disagree with my choice, but NOT ONE of them has been able to say that school is not boring and full of bullies! Their arguments always seem to boil down to 'school is shit and that's where children learn to cope with life being shit, so your child will not cope with life'. I could not disagree more that being subjected to bad things is a good basis for growth and learning, so I'm secure in my choice.

The other argument I hear a lot boils down to 'school used to be shit but it's a bit better now'. I think this is wishful thinking.

[/QB]

I do not know you or your daughter so really cannot comment on your choice but do wish to say that I have very few memories of ever being bullied at school (and those I do have mostly relate to a period where I was the only white child in my class), nor do I remember it as boring - but I went to lots & had the challenges of integrating with different systems and social groups. Nor do I think that School days have been better than my adult times, my one real reserve about home schooling is that it muddies the role of parent and teacher. I do think that they are different roles and that it can be very healthy for different people to fill them for a child.

--------------------
Beware the monocausal fallacy (Anon)

Posts: 232 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I effectively home-schooled my daughter through years 10 and 11 - GCSE years, aged 14-16. She did officially have two hours a week home tuition from the local authority (medical needs), one hour English and one hour maths, and I was down as her science teacher. Because she was on roll at the school she sat those GCSEs. It was damn difficult and I'd been working in SEN in secondary schools for a while so knew the curricula and subjects well enough - I trained as a science teacher. She came out with good grades, but I really don't recommend it for anyone to take on lightly.

I am aware that there other routes through, but my daughter wanted to study a traditional academic subject and there are sometimes too many preconceived ideas to battle - a history of illness and unconventional qualifications can be a bridge too far for some places.

She has a MEng in mechanical engineering from a Russell group university and graduated last summer. Coming in from a State school background was pretty exceptional to get that far.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079

 - Posted      Profile for justlooking   Author's homepage   Email justlooking   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Parents are a child's first teachers.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Full Circle
Shipmate
# 15398

 - Posted      Profile for Full Circle     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
Parents are a child's first teachers.

Yes, they are. But I do not think they should be a childs only teacher

--------------------
Beware the monocausal fallacy (Anon)

Posts: 232 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged
justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079

 - Posted      Profile for justlooking   Author's homepage   Email justlooking   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Neither do I. There are plenty of other adults who help children to learn. For my son these included other EO adults, sports instructors and youth group leaders. There were art workshops too - all day events put on by an art gallery for home educating families and led by their education staff. He also got involved in re-enactment and learnt a lot of history through that.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
But that's because you bothered to take them. Many schools put on all those extra-curriclar events because they know darned well that if they didn't, some children would never do anything worthwhile. The number, I guess, depends on the catchment area of the school.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917

 - Posted      Profile for Eigon   Author's homepage   Email Eigon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry not to get back to this for a while - someone upthread asked how it was that home schooled children near me went to Woodland School. That's the name they use round here for a group of home schooled children getting together once a week to do interesting things in a wood - identifying plants, lighting campfires, doing art projects and so on.

--------------------
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.

Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I was home-schooled for about six years for a variety of reasons. My parents used materials from Calvert, and they were awesome. I definitely had fewer friends my age than would be typical, but home-schooling wasn't the only reason for that. On the up-side, I have no problems enjoying my own company. The down-side was that I became convinced my parent-teachers wouldn't love me if my schoolwork wasn't perfect. You can all imagine what that can lead to. When I eventually went into the public school system, I did very well academically and was bullied mercilessly. University was a relief! I got a great education, a love of learning, and a ton of baggage I'm still trying to unpack and get rid of.

If someone were actually asking for my advice on home-schooling, I would still say go for it, with a few provisos. Monitor how the parent-child relationship is influenced by the teacher-pupil relationship carefully and be willing to adjust. Use proper educational materials, follow a curriculum, etc. but use the freedom of home-schooling to allow your child to follow their interests. It's ok to mess up the fridge with science experiments or make fuses out of gum wrappers as long as you're supervising. Make sure your child is involved in activities with other kids, such as formal and informal playgroups, arts or sports, community events, etc. If your locality gives standardized tests, see that your child takes them so you both have an external appraisal of how things are going. Most importantly though, remember that the teacher has to be willing to learn as well. OliviaG

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Auntie Doris

Screen Goddess
# 9433

 - Posted      Profile for Auntie Doris   Author's homepage   Email Auntie Doris   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I know a few people who do, or who have, home schooled their children. It always seemed to me that the decision to home school was far more about the parents than about the children.

Auntie Doris x

--------------------
"And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power." - iGeek in response to a gay-hater :)

The life and times of a Guernsey cow

Posts: 6019 | From: The Rock at the Centre of the Universe | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454

 - Posted      Profile for Zacchaeus   Email Zacchaeus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I haven't known anybody who had home schooled, but I have known a few who considered it. My concern was that they were parents who just wanted to control every aspect of their children's life, and they were worried that in schools, other people had influence over their children.

While not disputing that it worked for some people - how do we ensure that children who are homeschooled are not done so for the wrong reasons? Where are the checks and balances in the homeschooling system.

Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged
justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079

 - Posted      Profile for justlooking   Author's homepage   Email justlooking   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PerkyEars:
.... The atmosphere at a homeschooling meet is massively different to that of a playground and the kids noticeably more relaxed. ....

I found this too. After a while spending more time in such groups, especially at the residential gatherings I got used to it and it was a great shock when I went back into schools as a supply teacher. It's hard to explain it to other people though.

You might be interested in this research paper Home Education: Aims, Practices and Outcomes

Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079

 - Posted      Profile for justlooking   Author's homepage   Email justlooking   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:

While not disputing that it worked for some people - how do we ensure that children who are homeschooled are not done so for the wrong reasons? Where are the checks and balances in the homeschooling system.

If you look at the 'HE and the Law' and 'Local Authorities' sections of Education Otherwise you'll see the checks and balances.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454

 - Posted      Profile for Zacchaeus   Email Zacchaeus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:

While not disputing that it worked for some people - how do we ensure that children who are homeschooled are not done so for the wrong reasons? Where are the checks and balances in the homeschooling system.

If you look at the 'HE and the Law' and 'Local Authorities' sections of Education Otherwise you'll see the checks and balances.
But early on in the thread you said

quote:Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
...AIUI if you homeschool you have to proove you are doing it properly though I don't know how it works in practice.

You don't have to prove anything. The duty to ensure that a child is educated in acordance with age aptitude and ability, falls on the parents and they can choose to fulfil that duty by sending a child to school or 'otherwise'. A local education authority can enquire about any child not attending school to ascertain whether or not they are being home-educated but cannot question the education provided unless there are reasons to suspect that the parents are not fulfilling their duty.


The LEA can send inspectors into schools - but how with home schooling can they get to a situation where they 'suspect that parents are nto fulfilling their duty'?

Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged
justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079

 - Posted      Profile for justlooking   Author's homepage   Email justlooking   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
....The LEA can send inspectors into schools - but how with home schooling can they get to a situation where they 'suspect that parents are nto fulfilling their duty'?

The information is in the links and in the Local Authority Guidelines which are also linked in the EO doc.

The LEA can make an enquiry about a child's education and if it is not satisfied with the response can serve a notice requiring information. If no information is given or if it looks from the information that a child is not being educated then they can serve a school attendance order.

quote:
2.7 Local authorities have no statutory duties in relation to monitoring the quality of home education on a routine basis.

However, under Section 437(1) of the Education Act 1996, local authorities shall intervene if it appears that parents are not providing a suitable education. This section states that: “If it appears to a local education authority that a child of compulsory school age in their area is not receiving suitable education, either by regular attendance at school or otherwise, they shall serve a notice in writing on the parent requiring him to satisfy them within the period specified in the notice that the child is receiving such education.”

Section 437(2) of the Act provides that the period shall not be less than 15 days beginning with the day on which the notice is served.

2.8 Prior to serving a notice under section 437(1), local authorities are encouraged to address
the situation informally. The most obvious course of action if the local authority has information that makes it appear that parents are not providing a suitable education, would be to ask parents for further information about the education they are providing. Such a request is not the same as a notice under section 437(1), and is not necessarily a precursor for formal procedures. Parents are under no duty to respond to such enquiries, but it would be sensible for them to do so.



[ 10. June 2012, 18:09: Message edited by: justlooking ]

Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079

 - Posted      Profile for justlooking   Author's homepage   Email justlooking   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Just to add: Although there's no obligation for parents to allow any visit from an education advisor/inspector from my experience most do. I allowed an annual visit.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824

 - Posted      Profile for Aravis   Email Aravis   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The home schooling option crossed our minds, but it was never really a practical option; I would have had to give up work, which I didn't necessarily want to do, and my daughter was (still is!) an only child and fairly sociable. But it did worry me that she was so very bored in school by the age of six or seven. Every school holiday, when she was left to her own devices and had time to explore our own vast collection of books rather than the crappy school library, her reading skills increased by leaps and bounds. This didn't happen in term time. She did ask at one point whether she could do lessons at home and go into school just to play with her friends at break time.
Eventually, when she was nine, I had the opportunity to increase my working hours from 18.5 per week to 30, which was enough extra cash (in Wales) to send her to a private school, with a bursary for a proportion of the fees. This went against all my principles up till that point, but I don't regret it.
In the end, whatever decisions you make, you have to do what you feel is best for your child if you can manage it, financially and socially.

Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
PerkyEars

slightly distracted
# 9577

 - Posted      Profile for PerkyEars   Email PerkyEars   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
It's not funny that you feel free to openly and rudely disapprove of parents who choose (or who can't help but go with) mainstream education - unless they admit they are controlling and dysfunctional of course.
It's a fair cop. I was being too intemperate in my dismissal of schools in my last post.

I don't disapprove of parents who go with mainstream education, assuming they've balanced their families personalities, financial situation, quality of local schools etc and gone with schools for good reasons. I rarely dissaprove of any individual parents considered choices because there are always a lot of personal factors to consider. Some of those children will be the lucky ones who 'fit' school. Many don't, and I think more don't than is generally admitted by our society, where many are uncomfortable with questioning the schooling system. It's a very deeply rooted assumption that children should go to school.

Obviously not only horrible dysfunctional families shouldn't homeschool, but they are a subset who definately shouldn't IMO. I did not mean to apply that to any parent who thinks they wouldn't be temperamentally suited to it.

What I dissaprove of and what gets me riled is a parenting philosophy that thinks it's fine for children to have a bad time at school as this is character building, or in some way related to preparing them for 'real life' - and this is what I often hear from the most vociferously 'anti' people. There are lots of other parents I've spoken to who've chosen school for other reasons.

What I also think is sad is the number of parents who don't think themselves capeable of homeschooling when they perhaps are.

Posts: 532 | From: Bristol | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884

 - Posted      Profile for angelfish   Email angelfish   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, that was a very gracious dismount,
PerkyEars. [Biased]

I don't believe anybody really thinks that their child having a bad time at school is desireable, but given that it is impossible to prevent bad things ever happening to our children, it is perhaps healthy to accept that fact and equip them to deal with harsh times, rather than hide them away. Not to say that homeschoolers can't do this, nor that throwing the kids in at the deep end and leaving them to it helps either.

--------------------
"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
ianjmatt
Shipmate
# 5683

 - Posted      Profile for ianjmatt   Author's homepage   Email ianjmatt   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We have home educated for seven years now. When our eldest was hitting High School age we gave her the option of choosing whether she wanted to enter mainstream schooling or not. She chose to stay at home - she is 14 now (year 9 in UK school terms) - is currently studying her English Lit GCSE and starting double science and maths GCSEs for exams next summer.

Our 11 year had the same choice this year and has also chosen to stay at home.

Here is a quick summary of some of the reason we chose to do it written a couple of years ago (I no longer work with Education Otherwise - in this post it says I do):

Raising dazed-out, stupefied kids

--------------------
You might want to visit my blog:
http://lostintheheartofsomewhere.blogspot.com

But maybe not

Posts: 676 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I like this ianjmatt -

quote:
Actually, I think the ideal would be small, community-based educational cooperatives run through a blend of parental involvement and employed teachers, where parents are intimately involved in the philosophy and overall direction, as well as the pastoral things.
[Overused]

Even Primary schools in the UK are becoming huge and impersonal. I taught in one with 1000 kids (I stayed 6 days and quit). The teachers and children had no sense of involvement whatever. Dreadful!

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489

 - Posted      Profile for Niminypiminy   Email Niminypiminy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I've never considered home schooling. I wouldn't be a good teacher for my children, and I hate to think what it would do to our relationship. I'm content to have home and school be different worlds. I need to work.

But in the end I think my objections are ones of principle. Decisions about education don't only concern the academic curriculum and how it is taught; nor do one's decisions only affect one's own children. Schools are part of society at large; a local school is -- or should be -- a microcosm of society in its area. If you take your child out of their local school, whether that is home schooling, or private education, or some kind of alternative like Steiner, you are taking them out of their local community and into a self-selecting group of like-minded and like-circumstanced people.

I think that everyone loses when that happens. Removing your child from your local school means, in effect, removing them from society, from our common circumstances and experiences. That's bad for the child concerned, and it also diminishes the richness and diversity of the school's society. It means saying that 'what is good enough for the common herd is not good enough for my child'.

For me it's a matter of principle to send my children to their local school, and to spend the energy I might put into home education working to improve the educational lot of all children -- in my case through being a governor. In my view local schools should be able to cater for all children (though there are a few for whom special education is the right thing) -- and the struggle to be waged is to get them to do it. It would seem like admitting defeat to say, effectively, I abandon others to their fate: my concern is with my own.

I know, however, that people's mileage varies immensely on this question, and I absolutely do not think that people who choose to home school are unprincipled, or not community-spirited.

--------------------
Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/

Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
I've never considered home schooling. I wouldn't be a good teacher for my children, and I hate to think what it would do to our relationship. I'm content to have home and school be different worlds. I need to work.

But in the end I think my objections are ones of principle. Decisions about education don't only concern the academic curriculum and how it is taught; nor do one's decisions only affect one's own children. Schools are part of society at large; a local school is -- or should be -- a microcosm of society in its area. If you take your child out of their local school, whether that is home schooling, or private education, or some kind of alternative like Steiner, you are taking them out of their local community and into a self-selecting group of like-minded and like-circumstanced people.

I think that everyone loses when that happens. Removing your child from your local school means, in effect, removing them from society, from our common circumstances and experiences. That's bad for the child concerned, and it also diminishes the richness and diversity of the school's society. It means saying that 'what is good enough for the common herd is not good enough for my child'.

For me it's a matter of principle to send my children to their local school, and to spend the energy I might put into home education working to improve the educational lot of all children -- in my case through being a governor. In my view local schools should be able to cater for all children (though there are a few for whom special education is the right thing) -- and the struggle to be waged is to get them to do it. It would seem like admitting defeat to say, effectively, I abandon others to their fate: my concern is with my own.

I know, however, that people's mileage varies immensely on this question, and I absolutely do not think that people who choose to home school are unprincipled, or not community-spirited.

Well said.

The problems with homeschooling are broader, societal ones. Homeschooling, like private schooling, is a distinctly privileged option. While I know that homeschooling parents often make significant financial sacrifices and live very simply to make this possible, it still is an option only for the relatively wealthy, and not available at all to single parents and the poor. That doesn't make it wrong, but does raise a concern. If those of us who have the ability to leave the system opt to do so, rather than stay and fight for a better system, then the people who lose out are the most vulnerable-- the poor, single parent families-- those with no other options.

At the same time I know, from personal experience, that these decisions aren't made on that level. These decisions are made very locally, in the family, about what's best for us, for our kid. I know that because that's what I did. I started my kids in public school, firmly committed to it, for precisely the reasons Niminypiminy outlined so well. When my middle child floundered (really more than floundered-- and I'm not talking academically)-- we prayed, we worked, we fought... but ultimately, we moved him. In our case we chose private school over homeschool (for a variety of reasons), but in terms of the issues Niminypiminy is raising, it's really the same. I remain uneasy about that choice, yet know I would do the same tomorrow.

I think the choice really comes down to that ying/yang-- between the greater societal good and what this child, this family, needs.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
PerkyEars

slightly distracted
# 9577

 - Posted      Profile for PerkyEars   Email PerkyEars   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
it still is an option only for the relatively wealthy
I don't think anyone would describe us as "relatively wealthy" nor have we ever been. [Killing me]

We have one partner employed full time in what is by any yardstick not a well paid job (customer service on the phones), and me having to work part-time as a childminder to make ends meet. By ends meet I mean no car, no holidays, no pension, cheap hobbies, second hand clothes etc. Other people have low paid jobs and make up the shortfall with various benefits/various ways of making money from home. It is by no means only families with one good professional income who choose to homeschool.

That said, we've made the choice to have a low-maintenance lifestyle. And even then my supplementary income is neccessary. It isn't an option for many families, but I would challenge that it's an option for the wealthy.

quote:
Actually, I think the ideal would be small, community-based educational cooperatives run through a blend of parental involvement and employed teachers, where parents are intimately involved in the philosophy and overall direction, as well as the pastoral things.
Essentially I agree with this. The best homeschooling involves a community effort, and is supplemented by professional teaching where appropriate. My plans to homeschool don't involve me sitting down with my daughter at the table teaching her stuff by myself, they involve as much involvement as possible with activities involving other families, and professional teaching where she needs it.

I do think this is a healthier model than schools, which is why I can't in all conscience take the road of becoming a school govenor to try and work 'within the system'. I'd rather be part of a broader movement that models alternative lifestyles.

Posts: 532 | From: Bristol | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

 - Posted      Profile for Beeswax Altar   Email Beeswax Altar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
originally posted by Niminypiminy:
Schools are part of society at large; a local school is -- or should be -- a microcosm of society in its area. If you take your child out of their local school, whether that is home schooling, or private education, or some kind of alternative like Steiner, you are taking them out of their local community and into a self-selecting group of like-minded and like-circumstanced people.

Local schools are not microcosms of society in its area. State and federal governments have too much control over what can and can't be taught as well as how it is taught. Homeschooling and private schools are the only ways parents can instill the values of their real local communities into their children.

--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
I do feel that the "preparing them for the real world" question is false.

Do mainstream schools prepare children for the Real World anyway? The CBI is always saying that they don't.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959

 - Posted      Profile for tclune   Email tclune   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Local schools are not microcosms of society in its area. State and federal governments have too much control over what can and can't be taught as well as how it is taught.

Sounds like a microcosm of society to me...

--Tom Clune

--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.

Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

 - Posted      Profile for Beeswax Altar   Email Beeswax Altar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Not of a local community

--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599

 - Posted      Profile for Mockingale   Email Mockingale   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
At the very least, I imagine that the prom is awkward.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011  |  IP: Logged
Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489

 - Posted      Profile for Niminypiminy   Email Niminypiminy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

I think the choice really comes down to that ying/yang-- between the greater societal good and what this child, this family, needs.

Cliffdweller, I'm really sympathetic with your situation -- I have a child whose needs will always be very difficult for our local school to meet. I spend hours worrying and praying about what the right thing for him is. I guess I wanted to say, though, that these things are about more than just one's own child, and to add that dimension to the discussion.

--------------------
Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/

Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010  |  IP: Logged
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959

 - Posted      Profile for tclune   Email tclune   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
At the very least, I imagine that the prom is awkward.

Aren't they always?

--Tom Clune

--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.

Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079

 - Posted      Profile for justlooking   Author's homepage   Email justlooking   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
... Homeschooling, like private schooling, is a distinctly privileged option. While I know that homeschooling parents often make significant financial sacrifices and live very simply to make this possible, it still is an option only for the relatively wealthy, and not available at all to single parents and the poor...

My own experience is that very few home educating families are relatively wealthy and it certainly is an option for the poor and for single parents. This pdf doc gives one parent's account. There's also a thread in netmumsSingle parent/ home schooling question which deals with working and with the benefit system. For example a single parent might work four hours a day and arrange for the child to be looked after, perhaps within another home-educating family. Child-care allowances and the tax credit system help. I doubt if it costs the state any more than it pays out for a child to use the school system.

One fact that intrigues me from the data in the research document I linked to earlier is that children from the lower socio-economic groups achieved higher test results than those of wealthier families.

As to the idea of school as local community, it might be the case at primary level, at least in some areas, but secondary schools have a much wider intake, especially church secondary schools. Most of us live within a network of communities rather than just one based on geographical area.

Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
ianjmatt
Shipmate
# 5683

 - Posted      Profile for ianjmatt   Author's homepage   Email ianjmatt   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I agree with the critique of the assumption that the school is a hub and reflection of the local community.

Our children are involved with various activities - drama group, scouts, beavers, church groups - as well as just running feral in the woods and stream near our house with friends in the village, and as such they, and we, have plenty of community involvement. The school (and really we mean primary schools) may be an element of community reflection, involvement and cohesion but it is neither the exclusive element for a necessary one.

I would also take issue with this from Niminypiminy:

quote:
I guess I wanted to say, though, that these things are about more than just one's own child, and to add that dimension to the discussion.
When it comes to making a decision in the best interests of a child, there is a hierarchy of priorities. When we were adopting our youngest this is something the social workers really worked at carefully. The interests of the child trumped the interests of the parents and of society at large. When it comes to educational and welfare decision I think it is the same.

--------------------
You might want to visit my blog:
http://lostintheheartofsomewhere.blogspot.com

But maybe not

Posts: 676 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258

 - Posted      Profile for art dunce     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am sure the motivations for choosing homeschooling are varied by family, region, country. I live in a place where people come to drop out, or urban homestead (ack), or live an "alernative " lifestyle. The majority of families that homeschool are not motivated by religion but by this philosophy that says that only mothers willing to take on white martyrdom are acceptable. THey embrace attachment parenting, are very controlling around all aspects of diet, they usually nurse well into toddlerhood and then homeschool. They completely control every aspect of their childs life and play and yet keep claiming the kids are free and self directed. They are usually either undereducated themselves or have a not very lucrative degree and so didn't have a career even before kids and just had shit jobs they hated and so they make this their vocation. They are not usually wealthy, since most of the wealthy couples I know are two career and those women didn't study and train and sacrifice to be a surgeon or an engineer to throw it all away for 18 years. It is a choice and some families seem very happy to garden and wander about canning and sewing like Little House on the Prairie out of time. Their kids often are more comfortable talking to adults and are awkward around other kids. Some of the truly dedicated ones create a creative, joyful enviroment for the kids, but more often than not they start off enthusiastic and then it wanes and you see them dragging their kids around Walmart in the middle of the day and neither them nor their kids look very happy.
I would have hated to be homeschooled since despite the bullying or the boredom I had the opportunity to decide who I wanted to be in the world away from the person you feel compelled to be with/for your family. Room to try on different personas, exposure to people very different from your familiy's circle and the space to question them and decide for yourself what your values, opinions or choices will be.

[ 11. June 2012, 17:30: Message edited by: art dunce ]

--------------------
Ego is not your amigo.

Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489

 - Posted      Profile for Niminypiminy   Email Niminypiminy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ianjmatt:

I would also take issue with this from Niminypiminy:

quote:
I guess I wanted to say, though, that these things are about more than just one's own child, and to add that dimension to the discussion.
When it comes to making a decision in the best interests of a child, there is a hierarchy of priorities. When we were adopting our youngest this is something the social workers really worked at carefully. The interests of the child trumped the interests of the parents and of society at large. When it comes to educational and welfare decision I think it is the same.
Of course. But in bringing up children one of the things that we do is to pass on our values, and the largest part of the way we do this is by what we do rather than what we say. By removing one's child from the community-at-large (rather than a self-selecting group centred on particular interests or activities or beliefs) we are modelling 'what is good enough for the common herd is not good enough for my children'. A child's welfare and their education is not simply a private matter because we are all members one of another. It impoverishes each of us to treat these matters as if they were simply individual choices.

--------------------
Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/

Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Every situation is different, but FWIW, art dunce's detailed observations have absolutely no relation to my own experience -- in fact, they're about 99% wrong / opposite. Just for starters, I was bottle-fed. OliviaG

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
ianjmatt
Shipmate
# 5683

 - Posted      Profile for ianjmatt   Author's homepage   Email ianjmatt   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
Of course. But in bringing up children one of the things that we do is to pass on our values, and the largest part of the way we do this is by what we do rather than what we say. By removing one's child from the community-at-large (rather than a self-selecting group centred on particular interests or activities or beliefs) we are modelling 'what is good enough for the common herd is not good enough for my children'. A child's welfare and their education is not simply a private matter because we are all members one of another. It impoverishes each of us to treat these matters as if they were simply individual choices.

No - what someone is saying is: "there are a range of options and opportunities when it comes to education. We're choosing this one - others will choose something difference".

You are assuming that there is a neutral, default position on education and everything else is deviating from the 'common herd'. I would challenge that - it is an attitude that disempowers parents from making choices - from understanding that education is not 'one size fits all' and that there are various options. It may that the local state primary school - or perhaps one of the choices in urban areas (church, county primary, primary academy etc) is the right choice. But that should be a positive decision, not a default assumption.

Home education is not 'removing your child from the community at large'. The local state school is not the community - please see my comment above on how we are very involved in the community.

--------------------
You might want to visit my blog:
http://lostintheheartofsomewhere.blogspot.com

But maybe not

Posts: 676 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
... a self-selecting group centred on particular interests or activities or beliefs ...

What, like a public school? Let's see: self-selecting - yep, parents can choose between public schools and various programmes, at least in my burg. Centred on particular interests and activities - yep, pretty much focused on teaching certain core subjects; some physical activity or arts or languages; and informal socializing. Centred on particular beliefs - everyone in the public school system is governed by ethical and behavioural codes based on particular values. Or, to put it another way: do the objections to home-schooling on social grounds apply equally to private (public in the UK) schools (religious or non-)? Because if that's a social problem, it's a far bigger issue in terms of numbers than home schooling. And it will only increase with e.g. charter schools or school vouchers. OliviaG

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

 - Posted      Profile for Beeswax Altar   Email Beeswax Altar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
originally posted by Niminypiminy:
By removing one's child from the community-at-large (rather than a self-selecting group centred on particular interests or activities or beliefs) we are modelling 'what is good enough for the common herd is not good enough for my children'.

One, I don't see what makes a school district with rather arbitrarily drawn boundaries the community-at-large while organic social groups are not. Two, I have no problem modeling "what is good enough for the common herd is not good enough for my children."

--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959

 - Posted      Profile for tclune   Email tclune   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My crotchety view is that education is clearly a state function -- it is the society instilling in the child an understanding of who we are as a people and helping the child begin to deal with the question of how he fits into that vision.

The problem is that modern educators are idiots -- they see their task as helping the child get in touch with his inner beauty, rather than trying to civilize the little heathen. There is absolutely no compelling reason for the state to help in such a solipsistic endeavor, so the typical modern teacher has adopted a view of his profession that makes the profession a needless luxury. Why the community should be taxed to the nines to pay for an indulgence of someone else's child is beyond my ability to understand.

So, in the context of this kind of flaccid nonsense, homeschooling may be a moral imperative of responsible adults -- "when the cities lie at the monster's feet there are left the mountains." Or so ISTM.

--Tom Clune

[ 11. June 2012, 18:41: Message edited by: tclune ]

--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.

Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't have any children, but attended state schools as a child, and I have worked as a teacher. If I had kids and my circumstances were suitable, I would consider home schooling.

Mainstream education doesn't suit every child. Some are bullied, but many more just don't receive the breadth of education that they deserve, e.g. the low importance given to the study of foreign languages in many state schools. And I also come from an ethnic minority that, as a group, often has disappointing outcomes from state schooling. So home schooling would be an option, as would private or grammar schooling. But of course, I'd have to try to socialise my child with others as much as possible. There's Scouts, Sunday school, summer camps, etc.

The thing about not being able to fit in with other people later on is probably valid, but that can end up happening to anyone, either as a result of your upbringing, your own personality, or because you deliberately choose to live an alternative lifestyle of some kind.

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PerkyEars:
quote:
it still is an option only for the relatively wealthy
I don't think anyone would describe us as "relatively wealthy" nor have we ever been. [Killing me]

We have one partner employed full time in what is by any yardstick not a well paid job (customer service on the phones), and me having to work part-time as a childminder to make ends meet. By ends meet I mean no car, no holidays, no pension, cheap hobbies, second hand clothes etc. Other people have low paid jobs and make up the shortfall with various benefits/various ways of making money from home. It is by no means only families with one good professional income who choose to homeschool.

If you read the whole context of my comment, I think you'll see that reflected. The profile you sketch is precisely what I was referring to-- almost all the families that I know that homeschool sound a lot like you-- two parents, one working full-time, working hard to keep expenses down, living simply, to make it possible. I certainly was not meaning to imply otherwise, as I think you'll see if you read the entire comment.

At the same time, even though the model you're describing requires a great deal of sacrifice and things are not at all luxurious, it still is a privileged model. The term "relatively" was meant to suggest precisely that-- relative to the world as a whole. As I went on to share, I've made similar choices for similar reasons, making similar sacrifices to do so.

But the fact remains, that for a significant portion of society, homeschooling is not an option, no matter what sacrifices the parents are willing to make. And that segment of society is the segment that is the most vulnerable, the most in need of the boost of a good education. So, on the broader societal level, you have to wonder what happens to those kids. Will our concerns for public schools be as strong, will we fight as hard to set right all the things that are driving us away from them, once we have made that sacrifice to remove our kids from a system we believe is broken?

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools