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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Should RE be expunged from the EBac?
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
How would you measure 'Gifted and Talented' in RE, I wonder?
Checklist for identifying gifted and talented pupils
can reflect on experiences with ease
can enquire with ease:
planning appropriate methods of enquiry
finding out about religion from various sources
applying knowledge
using appropriate forms of questioning
asking insightful questions
listening carefully
acquiring new religious vocabulary
selecting, organising, recording and recalling information
can empathise with ease:
identifying religious phenomenon
appreciating feelings of religiously committed
appreciating forms of worship, beliefs, commitment of others
can reason with ease:
analysing information
responding to assumptions
discerning beyond the obvious and ordinary
classifying arguments
formulating logical arguments
supporting personal views with sound reasons and evidence
displaying original thinking
willing to explore and try to understand conceptual ideas
sensitivity to or awareness of the numinous/mysterious in life
making connections between and within religions
making sense of and drawing meaning from religious symbols, metaphors,
texts and practices
can evaluate with ease:
recognising the significance of religious phenomenon
assessing evidence
considering implications of beliefs and actions
can communicate with ease:
describing religious experiences
displaying a depth of understanding
using appropriate methods to explain religious ideas
using appropriate religious language
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As for 'Life Skills', I think that most parents want their kids to more than pass exams. They need to learn to work collaboratively, in preparation for the workplace. They need to know how to keep safe - crossing roads, knowing about drugs and sex etc.
This may well be a shocking and novel idea, but can't those parents teach their kids those things themselves?
It really pisses me off how more and more parenting is now being done in school rather than by the parents themselves. I mean seriously, how to cross the fucking road being taught in school? Seriously? I mean, that has to be a joke, right?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I hope you don't believe that praising you children is a waste of time.
To me, it would kinda depends on whether they'd done something praiseworthy or not. The impression I get from some of these modern teaching fads is that all children should be praised equally whether they've done anything to merit it or not.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Checklist for identifying gifted and talented pupils
can reflect on experiences with ease
can enquire with ease:
can empathise with ease:
can reason with ease:
can evaluate with ease:
can communicate with ease:
Which age group is that applicable to?
I've snipped it to the headings so y'all don't have to scroll past it all again, but it seems to me that the skills listed in your post should not really come under the T&G heading by the time a pupil is, say, 16. Obviously some pupils won't be able to do them all (there's always a tail end to every bell curve), but to set the bar for "Talented and Gifted" so low seems ridiculous to me.
And of course, if your post refers to primary school kids then it's fair enough. Which is why I'm asking what age range it applies to ![[Smile]](smile.gif) .
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
It was drawn up for Key stage 3, i.e. 11-14-year-olds.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As for 'Life Skills', I think that most parents want their kids to more than pass exams. They need to learn to work collaboratively, in preparation for the workplace. They need to know how to keep safe - crossing roads, knowing about drugs and sex etc.
This may well be a shocking and novel idea, but can't those parents teach their kids those things themselves?
Clearly not - many kids have never been taught to use a knife and a fork before they start school dinners.
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kentishmaid
Shipmate
# 4767
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It really pisses me off how more and more parenting is now being done in school rather than by the parents themselves. I mean seriously, how to cross the fucking road being taught in school? Seriously? I mean, that has to be a joke, right?
Erm, weren't we, though? I remember road safety films, policeman coming in to talk about such things and doing cycling proficiency all at my primary school (1983-89).
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Posts: 2063 | From: Huddersfield | Registered: Jul 2003
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oldandrew
Shipmate
# 11546
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As for 'Life Skills', I think that most parents want their kids to more than pass exams. They need to learn to work collaboratively, in preparation for the workplace. They need to know how to keep safe - crossing roads, knowing about drugs and sex etc.
This may well be a shocking and novel idea, but can't those parents teach their kids those things themselves?
It really pisses me off how more and more parenting is now being done in school rather than by the parents themselves. I mean seriously, how to cross the fucking road being taught in school? Seriously? I mean, that has to be a joke, right?
The educational philosopher, R.S. Peters, described attempts to provide this sort of education as making schools into "orphanages for children with parents".
[ 09. March 2011, 18:56: Message edited by: oldandrew ]
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Also there's nothing new about the attitude behind telling every child that (s)he is "gifted". I remember the headmaster of the secondary school to which I was about to go saying to us children "you're all gifted". This was in 1987.
When I think back, I believe that what he really meant was that we are all unique and worthy of regard. But this is to say quite a different thing IMHO.
Interestingly enough, Wilkinson and Pickett in The Spirit Level cite a survey showing that since 1950 people had become much more likely to consider themselves special or important, yet their sense of self-esteem had actually dropped.
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M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It was drawn up for Key stage 3, i.e. 11-14-year-olds.
Well, that's not as bad then. I still think it's setting the bar a tad low, but not as low as I first thought.
I guess I just think that if you're going to single out some kids as "gifted and talented", it should actually be the gifted and talented ones rather than half or more of the class.
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
This may well be a shocking and novel idea, but can't those parents teach their kids those things themselves?
Clearly not - many kids have never been taught to use a knife and a fork before they start school dinners.
Really? Really???
Fuck. Me. Blind. Is it any wonder the country's gone down the pan, round the u-bend, along a few miles of sewer and out into the ocean when parents can't even be arsed to teach their kids how to eat? ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by kentishmaid:
I remember road safety films, policeman coming in to talk about such things and doing cycling proficiency all at my primary school (1983-89).
I remember having those films/talks as part of assemblies, and cycling proficiency was always done on a voluntary basis after school. They were never timetabled lessons taking valuable teaching time away from proper subjects.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Also there's nothing new about the attitude behind telling every child that (s)he is "gifted". I remember the headmaster of the secondary school to which I was about to go saying to us children "you're all gifted". This was in 1987.
When I think back, I believe that what he really meant was that we are all unique and worthy of regard. But this is to say quite a different thing IMHO.
Precisely, it's a very different thing to design a whole 'Gifted and Talented' programme and take children out of their lessons in order to do so. A waste of everybody's time.
Same goes for schools taking on the role of surrogate parents. They've always done visits from police, firefighters, dentists, cycling proficiency, the difference now is that it's locked into the curriculum rather than being a regular but occasional variation.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I have just spent the day at a conference with RE advisors and inspectors. The outlook gets more bleak by the day.
RE specialist advisors are losing their jobs because of LA cuts or else are being redeployed out of RE to general duties.
In initial teacher training, half of the RE experts are being sacked before October.
Anecdotal evidence is that as kids in year 9 do their choices, the top third are being told that they are 'the BAC group/ and steered away from RE.
That means that only average below kids are likely to do GCSE full or short course so the results in 2 years' time will be poor and then it is likely that RE will get blamed for poor results. (Plus Gove doesn't like modular courses so short courses are likely to get axed anyway.)
The Association of School and College Leaders have said that the BAC should include religious education according to this.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is it any wonder the country's gone down the pan, round the u-bend, along a few miles of sewer and out into the ocean when parents can't even be arsed to teach their kids how to eat?
Do you know any reception/infant teachers? Ask them.
But given that children in reception can be very young four-year-olds, reception teachers expect to spend that year socialising them and cleaning up after them. It's a very young age to start school but it doesn't mean that the school has to continue its surrogacy role into secondary education.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Four years old is quite young to be eating with a knife and fork. Five years old is probably more realistic.
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ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is it any wonder the country's gone down the pan, round the u-bend, along a few miles of sewer and out into the ocean when parents can't even be arsed to teach their kids how to eat?
Do you know any reception/infant teachers? Ask them.
That wasn't a comment about the teachers.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
The Commons Select Education Committee debated the EBAC on 22nd March and there was overwhelming support for MORE RE, not less, from both head teachers and employers who were called to give evidence.
I don't know what status a select committee has, however.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kentishmaid:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It really pisses me off how more and more parenting is now being done in school rather than by the parents themselves. I mean seriously, how to cross the fucking road being taught in school? Seriously? I mean, that has to be a joke, right?
Erm, weren't we, though? I remember road safety films, policeman coming in to talk about such things and doing cycling proficiency all at my primary school (1983-89).
And in my primary school (1961-1968)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
The Select Committee can't effect direct changes on the EBac but can only try to influence the Government. The Committee will in due course publish a report with recommendations. The Government will then respond to the report, also in writing. It is usual to try to respond in a positive manner, although it won't make the Government change its mind if it really doesn't agree with the recommendations.
A Select Committee has less leverage in these post hoc studies than in what is known as pre-legislative scrutiny of a draft bill before it is introduced into Parliament. A strong report from pre-legislative scrutiny can be a warning shot to the Government that it may have to reconsider some of its proposals if it wants to avoid a battle during the bill's passage through Parliament.
(BTW I read the transcript and although there was broad support for RE being an option in the EBac, I didn't see much comment on the amount of RE in schools, let alone overwhelming support for more.)
[All in response to Leo.]
[ 25. March 2011, 11:25: Message edited by: Pre-cambrian ]
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
Transcript
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Louise:
Will they replace it with philosophy and ethics or is that going too? It was one of the most popular (non maths/english/science) subjects at one of the schools I taught in.
No philosophy nor ethics.
Tories don't want people to think for themselves or ask awkward questions.
Not all Tories, it seems.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Indeed - and that EDM has a lot more signatories than the average.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Transcript
Thanks - most helpful though my memory was more optimistic - the bit I latched on to was: It is quite clear from picking up any newspaper that we need to be able to understand people of other cultures, other religions and other faiths, and just to drop, or effectively marginalise, a subject as crucial as RE, by revaluing other subjects, is foolish.
Matt Brady: I would agree as well. I believe that RE should gain parity in terms of its relationship with history and geography, and I totally support that view.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Just dug this out from the TES 4/2/11
GEOGRAPHY - Beset by 'uninspiring teaching'
Geography - one of the pillars of the new English Baccalaureate - is a subject in decline, with student numbers and teaching standards on the wane, according to Ofsted.
The subject is afflicted by "uninspiring teaching" and insufficient challenges in secondary schools, according to a report released by the inspectorate today.
Pupils' knowledge of places is described as "exceptionally weak", with more than half of schools failing to use fieldwork to "nurture a love of geography".
New figures reveal 90,000 fewer students took GCSE geography in 2010 than in 1995 - a drop of more than one-third.
Ofsted's report concluded that a "focus on factual recall rather than on exploring ideas failed to capture students' interest".
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
For those who missed it, there was a debate about RE and the EBac last Tuesday. It was in response to the large numbers of signatures for the EDM and for the REACT petition – the PM had agreed to debate any petitions with such a large number of signatures.
Despite the usual ignorance, many of our points were put forward by various participants (well done us for all our lobbying). Although Nick Gibb gave the standard response, this debate has put the issue on the map.
I was at last week’s NASACRE AGM and a positive spin was put on our future by John Keast (new chair of the REC) and Tory Cllr Guy Horden from Birmingham has been in regular contact at No.10 arguing our cause.
You can read the debate at and
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm110517/halltext/110517h0002.htm here here
[ 20. May 2011, 14:59: Message edited by: leo ]
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Education ministers claim to be monitoring how the EBacc affects RE and we are now staring to get evidence on this. A report by the National Association of Teachers of RE, at , based on evidence from over half of all state maintained secondary schools in England, states that ‘A quarter of all academies and community schools are not providing statutory RE for 14 – 16 year olds…… is predicted to increase during 2011 – 12’. and that ‘GCSE RE entries between 2010 and 2011 have dropped by more than a third in academies and community schools’
Regarding to sample, they stated: ‘It is reasonable to assume that the majority of responses come from schools with enthusiastic and active RE teachers. Schools without subject specialists and where little RE is taught are less likely to be represented in the sample. Therefore the overall picture and in particular the negative effects of the EBacc proposals on RE are very likely to be even more damaging than this survey reveals.’ this site
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
GCSE results today. Saw this article: Headmistress: Pupils should be 'proud to fail the baccalaureate'...."Surely religious studies, the study of world faiths, is all about developing our cultural understanding of the human race yet it doesn't count." Full article here.
I find these sentiments pretty ugly and partisan from this headteacher. As I recall back in the 70s and 80s a kind of informal EBAC operated in any case. Children were strongly encouraged to do a science, a language, a humanity (history or geography - RE was even back then a secondary and softer option) together with Maths and English as the basis for their O Levels.
Schools have evidently not been encouraging these core subjects and Gove has stepped up with some non-statutory arrangements to reinforce them. It's pretty non-controversial stuff really, unless you have a vested interest (as an RE teacher, or a member of your local SACRE). On the other hand, if there was a tried and tested Theology GCSE I'd be strongly encouraging them to include it in the Baccalaureate.
[ 25. August 2011, 16:16: Message edited by: Spawn ]
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I mostly agree with Spawn (don't all die of shock) about how it used to be. However, what makes it seem worse is that, in the immediate past to the present, RE has been increasing in importance in the curriculum, some would say to its rightful place. So to suddenly about-turn, and make it a fringe subject again, does seem rather odd.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
It's pretty non-controversial stuff really, unless you have a vested interest (as an RE teacher, or a member of your local SACRE). On the other hand, if there was a tried and tested Theology GCSE I'd be strongly encouraging them to include it in the Baccalaureate.
OK, I could be said to have a vested interest, having taught RE for over 30 years and as a SACRE member for most of that time. However, I am retired and my involvement with SACRE is voluntary, unpaid yet time-consuming. I do it because I care passionately for the right of young people to be given the chance to think theologically and to consider the relevance of faith.
It is ironic that Biblical Hebrew (which I would encourage but at a later age) is in the EBAC yet there is no requirement to understand Christianity nor the other major faiths and belief systems which make up current Britain.
It is also ironic that some church people/Christians don't care whether future generations should be ignorant of the Christian faith, especially in this 400th anniversary of the KJV which has shaped our culture.
[ 25. August 2011, 18:02: Message edited by: leo ]
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
It certainly is gaining in popularity - I think partly because of the option to teach "philosophy and ethics" as modules.
In our school (ok fairly unique with 3 very well qualified subject specialists) each year RS competed with history for "recruiting" the most to GCSE. RS often won.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
So philosophy and ethics are included in the subject and you think that's what makes it popular?
Interesting.
Here we have Philosophy as a separate subject from RE in high school.
And it was only last year that we introduced an official A level equivalent subject for year 12's in RE.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If this article is at all correct, RE as a subject is becoming more popular. Yet they want to can it? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
The article is correct but it reflects A level numbers for those who have just finished it.
There is a drastic reduction in numbers opting for it this coming school year, because of the BAC. There will be a further reduction because many A level RE sets won't be large enough to be viable so even those who opted may find themselves steered on to a different subject - with more redundancies of RE teachers to follow in addition to those which have already happened.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
if there was a tried and tested Theology GCSE I'd be strongly encouraging them to include it in the Baccalaureate.
How about GCSE (AQA specification A). looks at the Gospel of Mark in paper 1 and in paper 2 at the sacramental and ethical teaching of the Roman Catholic Church and its relevance for life today.
Other options include: Key Beliefs, Life Issues, Planet Earth, Questions of meaning - God & Death, The Existence of God, The Characteristics of God, Revelation and Enlightenment, The Problem of Evil, The Compatibility of Science and Religion, The Afterlife
Edexcel GCSE Religious Studies - covering believing in God, matters of life and death, marriage and the family, and religion and community cohesion. Also St Mark’s Gospel and its effects on the lives of Christians in the UK, covering discipleship, conflict and argument, death and resurrection, and the identity of Jesus.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Only 2 years ago, they were still offering funding incentives to RE PGCE students as RE was considered, alongside Maths, Science and Languages as a shortage subject. So you can see how fast the tide has turned.
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Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
It turned when Michael Gove took over. He doesn't seem to listen to anyone, let aloe engage them in debate. He leaves that to Nick Gibb who speaks like a broken record.
I am wondering, in retrospect, whether we should have opposed the wder raft of his education policies, such as the dismanting of local authorities and they democratic function, rather than the single issue.
[ 27. August 2011, 10:02: Message edited by: leo ]
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I am wondering, in retrospect, whether we should have opposed the wder raft of his education policies, such as the dismanting of local authorities and they democratic function, rather than the single issue.
Who is the 'we'?
If the 'we' is the church, then you are barking up the wrong tree. The most significant aspect of Gove's reforms is the rolling out of the academy programme. The Church is involved with many academies.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I am wondering, in retrospect, whether we should have opposed the wder raft of his education policies, such as the dismanting of local authorities and they democratic function, rather than the single issue.
Who is the 'we'?
If the 'we' is the church, then you are barking up the wrong tree. The most significant aspect of Gove's reforms is the rolling out of the academy programme. The Church is involved with many academies.
By 'we' I meant the RE community. However, the church should probably been more wide-ranging in its criticism and I do not believe it should be involved in academies.
What do you think of the theology GCSEs I mentioned above, which I posted to answer an earlier post of yours?
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Here we have Philosophy as a separate subject from RE in high school.
And it was only last year that we introduced an official A level equivalent subject for year 12's in RE.
We also have Philosophy as a separate subject at A level. However as a high school subject RS will include philosophy of religion and ethics.
I'm aware Australia is only recently introducing what we call RS as an academic subject. What we teach here is miles different from what some states teach as a sort of sunday-school subject (bearing more in common to what used to be religious instruction in private schools in the UK a long time ago I believe).
Certainly I believe Peter Vardy from the UK and some of his colleagues have done a lot of work with some states to introduce good religious studies into the Australian system (including a good friend/colleague of mine who nearly moved to Australia to help implement good practice in the subject). I've looked at some of their work and it is still different to what is taught here. Broader and less academic - however we specialise much earlier here so I believe it may suit the system there better.
I was quite interested in the comparisons a few years ago as I have married an Australian and wondered what and where I would teach/work if I moved across. Some potentially exciting career opportunities but we decided to stay here!
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
By 'we' I meant the RE community. However, the church should probably been more wide-ranging in its criticism and I do not believe it should be involved in academies.
Which academies should the church not be involved in? The academies which have successfully turned around failing inner city schools? Or the ones which are putting more money into the education of children because they've been able to reduce their overheads. In the case of my local newly converted primary academy - they've avoided laying off a member of staff as a result of conversion.
What do you mean by the church not being involved in academies? Surely if the church can be involved in private schooling it can and should also be involved in academies? Or should we simply shun them? Even the unions (blindly opposed to them) continue to represent academy teachers.
quote:
What do you think of the theology GCSEs I mentioned above, which I posted to answer an earlier post of yours?
The headings you posted looked interesting and promising.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
By 'we' I meant the RE community. However, the church should probably been more wide-ranging in its criticism and I do not believe it should be involved in academies.
Which academies should the church not be involved in? The academies which have successfully turned around failing inner city schools? Or the ones which are putting more money into the education of children because they've been able to reduce their overheads. In the case of my local newly converted primary academy - they've avoided laying off a member of staff as a result of conversion.
What do you mean by the church not being involved in academies? Surely if the church can be involved in private schooling it can and should also be involved in academies? Or should we simply shun them? Even the unions (blindly opposed to them) continue to represent academy teachers.
quote:
What do you think of the theology GCSEs I mentioned above, which I posted to answer an earlier post of yours?
The headings you posted looked interesting and promising.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
By 'we' I meant the RE community. However, the church should probably been more wide-ranging in its criticism and I do not believe it should be involved in academies.
Which academies should the church not be involved in? The academies which have successfully turned around failing inner city schools? Or the ones which are putting more money into the education of children because they've been able to reduce their overheads. In the case of my local newly converted primary academy - they've avoided laying off a member of staff as a result of conversion.
What do you mean by the church not being involved in academies? Surely if the church can be involved in private schooling it can and should also be involved in academies? Or should we simply shun them? Even the unions (blindly opposed to them) continue to represent academy teachers.
I don't believe the church should be involved in education at all, really.
However, if it is, it should be creaming off secondary children from local authority schools.
Academies that claim to have ;turned around' have done so by expelling large numbers of difficult pupils who then go on to local authority schools and create problems there.
In a word, church schools operate by disadvantaging local authority schools.
As for saving money on overheads, this is short term. The local authority services that they no longer use result in redundancies, for example virtually all but a handful of RE advisors have been made redundant since April this year. In the long term, academies will need tobuy in services at a much higher price because they are no longer provided by the LA but by private contractors working for profit instead of seeking to serve people.
[ 31. August 2011, 16:14: Message edited by: leo ]
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
There has been a trend over the last 20 years for pupils at grammar schools and high achievers in comprehensives to take more and more GCSEs. In my area, taking 11 subjects is quite common. Presumably, then, these pupils will still be free to take RE as one of their 10 or 11 options. It is the lower achievers who will be guided and coached through the minimum 5.
What this says to me is that RE is going to be a niche subject only for the most intelligent. And there is something deeply worrying about that. I'd like to see one of the requirements in the EBac for two half-subjects, one of which could (should?) be RE. There has been a precedent for this with half-GSCEs already.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I don't believe the church should be involved in education at all, really.
Fair 'nuff. Church schools were however pretty much all that was there before the state took an interest in education. And I don't think the church is going to get out of education any time soon - it's seen as part of the church's mission just about everywhere.
quote:
However, if it is, it should be creaming off secondary children from local authority schools.
I assume there's a 'not' missing from this sentence. Many Church schools are themselves 'controlled' by the Local Authority.
quote:
Academies that claim to have ;turned around' have done so by expelling large numbers of difficult pupils who then go on to local authority schools and create problems there.
Hang on, this is a sweeping statement that demands to be backed up by evidence. The academies I am familiar with have not expelled large numbers of difficult pupils and in fact use exclusion as a last resort.
quote:
In a word, church schools operate by disadvantaging local authority schools.
That's more than a 'word'. And you're going to have to provide more evidence for this than a mere assertion.
quote:
As for saving money on overheads, this is short term. The local authority services that they no longer use result in redundancies, for example virtually all but a handful of RE advisors have been made redundant since April this year. In the long term, academies will need tobuy in services at a much higher price because they are no longer provided by the LA but by private contractors working for profit instead of seeking to serve people.
Even a short term saving is better than the current waste of money I have personally seen in the local authority. But the more academies there are the more competition there will be for their custom. Furthermore, by federating together they are increasing their buying power. The academy I am involved with is continuing to buy some valuable services from the Local Authority.
Your argument seemes to be that private is bad, and public is good. In fact in many cases private contractors are motivated by the desire to serve people as well as to make profits. Sometimes (of course not always) they serve people more effectively and efficiently than the public sector.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I don't believe the church should be involved in education at all, really.
Fair 'nuff. Church schools were however pretty much all that was there before the state took an interest in education. And I don't think the church is going to get out of education any time soon - it's seen as part of the church's mission just about everywhere.
Christians, individually, should be involved in local authority schools rather than hiving themselves off into separate institutions. Incarnation, salt and light etc. Something the free churches have always done.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Academies that claim to have ;turned around' have done so by expelling large numbers of difficult pupils who then go on to local authority schools and create problems there.
Hang on, this is a sweeping statement that demands to be backed up by evidence. The academies I am familiar with have not expelled large numbers of difficult pupils and in fact use exclusion as a last resort.
The Association of Teachers and Lecturers has a paper on this but I have to go out soon so haven't time to locate. Meanwhile, St. George comp in Bristol, taken over by Ray Priest and turned into an academy purged one tenth of its pupils on a single day, if I remember it correctly.
[ 31. August 2011, 18:21: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
In a word, church schools operate by disadvantaging local authority schools.
That's more than a 'word'. And you're going to have to provide more evidence for this than a mere assertion.
Why do I need to back up something so obvious? If you take the best kids out of the state system, you leave the state with sink schools.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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