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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Should the UK have a soda tax?
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LucyP
Shipmate
# 10476
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Posted
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Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Doctors have said all soda should be taxed at 20% to dissuade people from buying them to help us reduce our waistlines.
It isn't up to doctors to tell us to reduce our waistlines.
If people want to drink pop then they should be free to drink pop. And doctors should stick to the business of treating the sick and injured. That's what we all pay them to do.
At least one judge takes the view that if obesity leads to other problems, then doctors are responsible for doing everything possible to reverse the obesity - even booking an appointment with a weight loss surgeon for the patient.
quote:
In his verdict, Justice Stephen Campbell said when Dr Varipatis first saw his patient in 1997, Mr Almario was "morbidly obese and suffered from a constellation of other inter-related conditions, all affected by his obesity, including the liver disease".
He upheld that the doctor was legally responsible for the disease progressing to cirrhosis, liver failure and eventually liver cancer.
"I am satisfied that but for the negligence of the defendant, the liver disease would not have progressed to cirrhosis and one could have expected a great improvement in his health generally, had bariatric surgery been successful, and a healthful weight been achieved by Mr Almario following surgery," Justice Campbell noted.
Posts: 235 | From: my sanctuary | Registered: Sep 2005
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dv
Shipmate
# 15714
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Posted
Politicians are just looking for new forms of taxation all the time. It justifies their existence and pays for their perks (including subsidised bars in the House of Commons).
Charging extra for pop will not make a blind bit of difference to the amount consumed. A 2 litre bottle of crap lemonade costs about 20p at present in many supermarkets. Adding another 20% tax will have no effect on consumption.
Taxation is already too high and government is already meddling in areas that are not its concern. It should concentrate on providing better basic services and stop pretending it can micro manage everything. Clearing up the patient-killing mess that is the NHS would be a better place to start.
Posts: 70 | From: Lancs UK | Registered: Jun 2010
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
To be fair and to show the hidden values, it should be a sugar content tax and be on all drinks which have over a certain percentage of sugar. The thing about that is that it would hit many "healthy" middle class options such as fruit based juices and drinks.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Not wanting to drink water at meals is a cultural thing, I think. In France, I think most people still regard soda as more of a treat, and drink water with most of their meals.
When I have anglo-saxons round to dinner, I feel obliged to offer juice (not soda, because I don't drink it and I don't want it hanging around the house afterwards). When it's French people, I just stick the water-jug on the table (I use a filter jug because our tap water is full of chlorine and I think it tastes nasty) and no one thinks that's odd.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Not wanting to drink water at meals is a cultural thing, I think. In France, I think most people still regard soda as more of a treat, and drink water with most of their meals.
When I have anglo-saxons round to dinner, I feel obliged to offer juice (not soda, because I don't drink it and I don't want it hanging around the house afterwards). When it's French people, I just stick the water-jug on the table (I use a filter jug because our tap water is full of chlorine and I think it tastes nasty) and no one thinks that's odd.
We also only have water at meals. I can also taste the chemicals in tap water, so our 'fridge has a filter. But a filter jug works just as well.
Am I right in thinking that France doesn't have such an obesity problem? If so, we could do to emulate them in more ways than this one!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I usually still drink milk with my dinner when I'm at home. Like I have since childhood.
I don't do it when I go out. But on the rare occasions I have people over for a casual meal they're often tremendously surprised... and then I end up being surprised at their surprise because I forget that it isn't 'normal'.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Gradually it seems more and more restaurants and cafes are offering jugs of water with meals, which is great. And I've noticed, when going to someone's house for dinner, water is usually on offer without having to ask for it.
As for milk for children. I haven't checked, but doesn't full fat milk only have about 4% fat, anyway? And isn't the full fat kind the best for growing children? I understood semi and non-fat milk was not recommended for kids.
When I were a lad fizzy drinks were a treat; hence the popularity of soda stream when it first came out (oh, the joy of pressing the button)! For years now my teeth and my stomach can't easily take fizzy drinks. I imagine if kids get through their early years of high-input of the stuff, it's only because their bodies are young and resilient and their visits to the dentist regular and thorough.
Milk, water, some fruit juices or cordials. Even sugar-free squash is probably better as a regular drink for children (and adults).
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
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Originally posted by Enoch:
What do they want children to drink?
Water? Milk?
I thought milk was supposed to be fattening these days. We're always exhorted to use the green top sort. Besides, drinking milk neat, rather than in tea, coffee or on cornflakes is a bit of an esoteric taste.
Yes, it's very worthy to drink only water, but as a sole refreshment, that is a bit puritanical, a bit like expecting other people to make sacrifices. Most of us like sometimes to drink something with a flavour. In my experience, children don't usually like tea much until about 10 or coffee until their late teens. And national views vary on these things. English people used to disapprove of French children being given wine. Yet I remember an exchange student back in the 1960s being quite shocked at English children drinking tea by the mug full, and being told it was provided as a matter of course in schools.
Official advice is for young children to drink full-fat milk. 'Green-top' milk is only semi-skimmed though, I know lots of people who drink skimmed milk.
And re water, surely that's what squash is for? It's almost entirely water. Juice, however, is full of sugar.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
As for milk for children. I haven't checked, but doesn't full fat milk only have about 4% fat, anyway? And isn't the full fat kind the best for growing children? I understood semi and non-fat milk was not recommended for kids.
Yes, school milk is still 100% whole milk.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I want to know if this tax applies to diet drinks - a number of people I know are in a well-known slimming club and diet drinks are syn-free and often used in cooking and baking to cut syns.
I also want to point out that I am classed as obese but mostly drink water, squash or tea without sugar! Even at the pub I drink gin and bitter lemon, nothing very calorific.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Just to go back to the "oh, doctors should just up and fix us after we've ruined things" line of thinking...
You'd be wrong to assume that they can fix you. If you become diabetic due to a high sugar diet, they probably can't fix you. They can probably only help you manage and survive the condition you've landed yourself with.
Ever since I studied biochemistry at university, I've found the prospect of diabetes horrific. It means one of THE most fundamental metabolic processes in your body isn't working. Seriously, I go queasy just thinking about it.
And while some people suffer diabetes for other reasons, huge numbers of diabetics result from 'lifestyle'. From people sitting around and consuming large quantities of crappy food.
The idea that doctors are supposed to just sit back, shut up and watch this happening on an ever-increasing scale, but then come running after a person's body rebels against the abuse and stops making insulin... No. Just no.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I haven't checked, but doesn't full fat milk only have about 4% fat, anyway?
Yes. I roll my eyes at the people at work who get in a tizzy if there isn't skim milk in the fridge for their tea or coffee. The idea that milk is a high fat foodstuff - especially in the quantities they are consuming - is absurd. And the type of fat involved isn't one that it's necessary to avoid, either.
[ 19. February 2013, 11:02: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Lucky you, living in an area where there are fly-by-night street vendors you can get cheap stuff from. Not everyone can live in an area where there are market gardens with excess stock.
Its called London. Not a lot of market gardens. And they aren't "fly-by-night" they are ordinary shops and market stalls.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dv:
[QB] Politicians are just looking for new forms of taxation all the time. It justifies their existence and pays for their perks (including subsidised bars in the House of Commons).
Actually they aren't. They hate raising taxes. It loses them votes.
But of course this isn't really a serious suggestion for a tax. Its a publicity campaign meant to get people talking about the problems. Which we are doing, so it has worked.
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I want to know if this tax applies to diet drinks ...
An honest health Nazi would want to tax artificial sweeteners as well. They are plausibly potentially even more dangerous because it is possible that they fool your body into thinking you are taking in sugar when you aren't, which could mess up exactly the same hormone systems which when messed up we call type 2 diabetes. At least for a few minutes. Digestive hormones (or insulin) can be released in anticipation of sugar. (Its not just Pavlov's dogs that salivate before a meal). People eat or drink for all sorts of reasons - out of habit, or for pleasure in the taste, or because they are genuinely hungry or thirsty. If one of the reasons you facy a fizzy drink is because your blood sugar level is falling then if the drink doesn't actually have sugar in it you might go a little more hypo. Possibly. No-one's quite sure. It makes more sense than most of the bollocks diet-peddlers try to tell us though.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I want to know if this tax applies to diet drinks - a number of people I know are in a well-known slimming club and diet drinks are syn-free and often used in cooking and baking to cut syns.
I also want to point out that I am classed as obese but mostly drink water, squash or tea without sugar! Even at the pub I drink gin and bitter lemon, nothing very calorific.
Jade- what's a syn? is it an up-market sin?
and if it's a synthetic something, are not "diet" drinks full of synthetic stuff (sugar substitutes, flavourings, colourings etc)?
and alcohol has a fair number of calories, which is why it's sometimes used as a fuel (in camping stoves, added to car petrol, etc).
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Just to go back to the "oh, doctors should just up and fix us after we've ruined things" line of thinking...
You'd be wrong to assume that they can fix you. If you become diabetic due to a high sugar diet, they probably can't fix you. They can probably only help you manage and survive the condition you've landed yourself with.
Ever since I studied biochemistry at university, I've found the prospect of diabetes horrific. It means one of THE most fundamental metabolic processes in your body isn't working. Seriously, I go queasy just thinking about it.
And while some people suffer diabetes for other reasons, huge numbers of diabetics result from 'lifestyle'. From people sitting around and consuming large quantities of crappy food.
The idea that doctors are supposed to just sit back, shut up and watch this happening on an ever-increasing scale, but then come running after a person's body rebels against the abuse and stops making insulin... No. Just no.
Orfeo, I do take your point, but ...
... like my esteemed namesake, I am of a spare build and with a fairly active lifestyle. Also I tend to avoid junk food.
Blackbeard, type 2 diabetic
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I want to know if this tax applies to diet drinks - a number of people I know are in a well-known slimming club and diet drinks are syn-free and often used in cooking and baking to cut syns.
I also want to point out that I am classed as obese but mostly drink water, squash or tea without sugar! Even at the pub I drink gin and bitter lemon, nothing very calorific.
Jade- what's a syn? is it an up-market sin?
and if it's a synthetic something, are not "diet" drinks full of synthetic stuff (sugar substitutes, flavourings, colourings etc)?
and alcohol has a fair number of calories, which is why it's sometimes used as a fuel (in camping stoves, added to car petrol, etc).
Oh, a syn is a the Slimming World version of a Weight Watchers point. Nothing to do with synthetic things or sinning!
And I know alcohol has calories, but out of most alcoholic drinks gin has a relatively low calorie count. A single measure with a diet mixer is only 2.5 syns (you get 15 a day) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
And I know alcohol has calories, but out of most alcoholic drinks gin has a relatively low calorie count. A single measure with a diet mixer is only 2.5 syns (you get 15 a day)
15 gins a day - wayhay!
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
Jade- what's a syn? is it an up-market sin?
and if it's a synthetic something, are not "diet" drinks full of synthetic stuff (sugar substitutes, flavourings, colourings etc)?
It's a proprietary point value system used by a major corporation in the body insecurity industry. Apparently it's meant to be equivalent to sin, a point value given so you can still eat evil foods but only a small amount. The name of their point system appears to come from the word synergy, for me this raises a red flag as I don't trust for-profit corporations whenever they use 'synergy' but you can make up your own mind on that.
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
... and alcohol has a fair number of calories, which is why it's sometimes used as a fuel (in camping stoves, added to car petrol, etc).
The energy content of alcoholic drinks is actually quite low. Here's some numbers...
The Australia New Zealand Food Standards Code states that the energy factor (the amount of energy which the body can metabolise) of alcohol is 29 kJ per gram, which is about 6.9 calories per gram.
However, the amount of alcohol contained in most drinks is quite low. Gin is a minimum of 40% alcohol content by volume, but you don't drink as much gin as you would drinking a 4-5% many other alcoholic drinks.
For example, if I drank a bottle of Corona Extra from the carton in my cupboard, I would be consuming 355 mL x 4.5% alcohol content = 16 g of alcohol. Multiplied by the energy factor of 29 kJ/g, it means the alcohol alone gives me 464 kJ (111 cal) of energy. The total amount of metabolisable energy in a 355 mL bottle is 628 kJ (149 cal) though, since there are sources of energy other than the alcohol in that beer. This is 7.2% of the standardised 8700 kJ recommended daily energy intake, in one bottle alone.
What is important to remember is that just because a substance 'contains' chemical potential energy which may be converted into thermal energy (i.e. it will burn) doesn't mean it can be used as a source of energy by the human body. Fibre, for example, will burn but it will mostly pass straight through the gastrointestinal system and out the other end without any of that energy being absorbed. There are other food components where only some of the energy contained can be used, so the energy factor will be lower than the total amount of energy released if you burned it with complete efficiency.
This is where the concept of metabolisable energy comes in handy - this is the amount of energy in a given food/drink (or a food component) which the body may use, and it is always less than the total amount of energy you may measure by burning that substance in a laboratory to measure the energy content.
The metabolisable energy content in a given food which appears on the side of a packet is always an estimate of the average. This is calculated by breaking it down into its food components by weight, using known energy factors which (like the 29 kJ/g for alcohol found in the link further up) are then added together to create a highly accurate estimate of the maximum metabolisable energy available in that food/drink. Of course, if your GI tract is not working as it should and stuff is going straight through, not all of the energy will be absorbed - this is why you feel shaky and faint when you have diarrhoea because you are eating/drinking but you don't get to absorb the energy.
Linking it back to proprietary point systems, the complexity of these systems comes from the way they deal with the fact that there's a lot more to nutrition than the energy content. Taking a 375 mL can of Coke as an example, this contains 675 kJ (258 cal) of energy which is 8% of the recommended daily intake, but the sugar content is 40 g (44% of RDI) and the sodium content is only 37g (2% of RDI). The "magic" of the point systems is in the way they take in a whole lot of numbers from the manufacturer's supplied nutrition information and spit out a point value that balances all those factors and dumbs it down to a point value. Different companies will use different algorithms, which is why all those with point systems (whether they call them points, syns or whatever) will work differently. Other companies might choose to go for a green/yellow/red 'traffic light' system instead, which works in a fundamentally different manner.
This is why there's a lot more to eating healthily than counting kilojoules.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
And I know alcohol has calories, but out of most alcoholic drinks gin has a relatively low calorie count. A single measure with a diet mixer is only 2.5 syns (you get 15 a day)
15 gins a day - wayhay!
You're optimistic - it was 15 syns per day and not 15 gins per day. Using up all your syns on gin would allow you only six.
You'd also be very drunk either way ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 19. February 2013, 16:29: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I realize this is a UK thread, but the issues have come up here as well (and we call all of these fizzy sugar drinks "pop", the word "soda" identifies an American).
About two out of three (if not more) of us would slip through the cracks on this test. "Soda" marks you as an East Coaster, or, to a lesser extent, a Californian. There was a kid at my church camp whose flew in from the east coast every year, and we used to make fun of him every time he said "soda." Pop is preferred everywhere else, except for the deep south, where everything is called "coke." ("What'd you like to drink?" "A Coke, please." "What kind of coke? we got regular coke, orange coke, etc...")
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Nothing is banned under SW, no such thing as an 'evil food'. I'm not actually a participant anyway...
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I realize this is a UK thread, but the issues have come up here as well (and we call all of these fizzy sugar drinks "pop", the word "soda" identifies an American).
About two out of three (if not more) of us would slip through the cracks on this test. "Soda" marks you as an East Coaster, or, to a lesser extent, a Californian. There was a kid at my church camp whose flew in from the east coast every year, and we used to make fun of him every time he said "soda." Pop is preferred everywhere else, except for the deep south, where everything is called "coke." ("What'd you like to drink?" "A Coke, please." "What kind of coke? we got regular coke, orange coke, etc...")
"Pop" is old-fashioned and/or Northern over here. In my childhood "lemonade" was the nearest we had to a local generic name for the stuff. I'm likely to say "fizzy drink" now. "Soft drink" is more formal perhaps. ("soft" as in no alcohol - but no-one calls tea and coffee "soft drinks")
[ 19. February 2013, 16:54: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sleepwalker
Shipmate
# 15343
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Doctors have said all soda should be taxed at 20% to dissuade people from buying them to help us reduce our waistlines.
It isn't up to doctors to tell us to reduce our waistlines.
If people want to drink pop then they should be free to drink pop. And doctors should stick to the business of treating the sick and injured. That's what we all pay them to do.
Well, so long as they can charge you more for greatly increasing the chances of you being sick, I'm fine with that.
After all, that's the basis on which insurance premiums work. "We'll repair your house/car when it's broken... we think there's a greater risk of you needing repair, so here's your premium".
Why not medicine? No? Don't like that idea? In which case, doctors have every right to tell you how to reduce the chance of ending up in their consultation rooms or on their operating table.
I don't know where you live but here in the UK our average doctor is an NHS doctor and we all pay into their wages pot. So we all have a right to speak up should doctors, or indeed any public sector worker (funded directly by our taxes, either national or local), do or say something we don't agree with. I don't happen to agree with the nannying approach adopted by some 'health care professionals'. I pay my taxes in part to enable the NHS to treat me when I am sick and injured, not to give me or my fellow country people lectures on what we should and shouldn't eat/drink/enjoy in our lives.
Posts: 267 | From: somewhere other than here | Registered: Dec 2009
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I roll my eyes at the people at work who get in a tizzy if there isn't skim milk in the fridge for their tea or coffee. The idea that milk is a high fat foodstuff - especially in the quantities they are consuming - is absurd. And the type of fat involved isn't one that it's necessary to avoid, either.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) I'm spoiled rotten for life, having never forgotten the wonderful flavor of milk straight out of Grampa's Guernsey cows. There's nothing like it. It is as far above store-bought Holstein milk as store-bought Holstein milk is above powdered milk.
There seem to be some people who actually prefer skim milk ![[Confused]](confused.gif) rather than grimly choosing it as a heroic act of self-denial to keep calories down. Wonders never cease. I call it masochist juice.
Adults and even adolescents should be free to drink sody-pop (and I must confest to being almost an addict, but manage to keep to the sugar-free varieties), but there is no excuse for hawking it to pre-teens within school walls. If reputable authorities determine that it is not good for them, vending machines should be banned from elementary schools. Schools used to act in loco parentis, but nowadays they might be just loco.
[ 19. February 2013, 17:45: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
In my childhood "lemonade" was the nearest we had to a local generic name for the stuff. I'm likely to say "fizzy drink" now. "Soft drink" is more formal perhaps.
I don't ever remember "lemonade" as generic, although in my childhood, both "lemonade" and "coke" were often used to indicate the availability of a range of carbonated beverages including the one named. "Fizzy drink" was always the standard generic name, "pop" was used occasionally, and "soda" never. I don't think I ever heard "soft drink" outside a restaurant.
(Note for Americans: in the UK, "lemonade" is a carbonated drink not terribly unlike Sprite.)
When I was growing up, fizzy drinks were definitely a treat. We only had them with meals at birthday parties and similar events. The standard "child drink" was probably squash, either orange or lemon. Lemon squash, when properly diluted, is not so terribly different from the drink that Americans call lemonade.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
About two out of three (if not more) of us would slip through the cracks on this test. "Soda" marks you as an East Coaster, or, to a lesser extent, a Californian.
A true Bostonian uses the proper word, "tonic," to identify flavored seltzer. Old New Yorkers still talk about "two-cent plains," but what can you expect of a flat-lander...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
Here in the Other Island, the generic name is "mineral", as in, "here's a euro and one for yourself, get us some cans of minerals"
While no Tizer appetises the youth of the Republic, there is of course the classic Irish soft drink, Red Lemonade, as opposed to White Lemonade. What it has to with lemons beats me, but it is mixer of choice for some with whiskey.
All cola is coke, unless a Pepsi is specifically asked for.
Donegal and Derry has the tremendously lethal sugar kick of McDaid's Football Special. This unique soft drink which probably has more sugar than any other soft drink I know, needs to be tried at least once. Soft red in colour and has a head. Like Beer, but for kids. Actually more like liquid Haribo and to be treated accordingly.
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
There seem to be some people who actually prefer skim milk rather than grimly choosing it as a heroic act of self-denial to keep calories down. Wonders never cease. I call it masochist juice.
I call it milk-flavored water. ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
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Originally posted by Alogon:
There seem to be some people who actually prefer skim milk rather than grimly choosing it as a heroic act of self-denial to keep calories down.
I have a brother of that ilk. When he came to stay, I had to get in a supply of the nasty stuff specially.
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If reputable authorities determine that it is not good for them, vending machines should be banned from elementary schools. Schools used to act in loco parentis, but nowadays they might be just loco.
I am somewhat bemused by the idea that an elementary school pupil has the time to purchase and consume a drink from a vending machine, or that it is normal for elementary-age pupils to carry money on their person to enable them to do so.
I would far prefer any such "ban" to be a decision on the part of the school rather than an imposition from on high, although I understand that schools find it hard to turn away the income derived from vending machines. I note that our local High School has vending machines that sell diet drinks, but not the sugary (HCFSy?) ones, and also that they have a machine selling bottled water about ten feet from a water fountain.
But if you're not careful, well-meaning ideas quickly turn into odious nonsense like this.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
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Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
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Originally posted by orfeo:
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Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
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Originally posted by Boogie:
[qb] Doctors have said all soda should be taxed at 20% to dissuade people from buying them to help us reduce our waistlines.
It isn't up to doctors to tell us to reduce our waistlines.
If people want to drink pop then they should be free to drink pop. And doctors should stick to the business of treating the sick and injured. That's what we all pay them to do.
Well, so long as they can charge you more for greatly increasing the chances of you being sick, I'm fine with that.
After all, that's the basis on which insurance premiums work. "We'll repair your house/car when it's broken... we think there's a greater risk of you needing repair, so here's your premium".
Why not medicine? No? Don't like that idea? In which case, doctors have every right to tell you how to reduce the chance of ending up in their consultation rooms or on their operating table.
I don't know where you live but here in the UK our average doctor is an NHS doctor and we all pay into their wages pot. So we all have a right to speak up should doctors, or indeed any public sector worker (funded directly by our taxes, either national or local), do or say something we don't agree with. I don't happen to agree with the nannying approach adopted by some 'health care professionals'. I pay my taxes in part to enable the NHS to treat me when I am sick and injured, not to give me or my fellow country people lectures on what we should and shouldn't eat/drink/enjoy in our lives.
That's precisely my point. An NHS kind of system is precisely the kind where doctors are entitled to tell you ways in which you can help not blow the NHS budget out of the water.
If you live in a country where it's thoroughly user pays, then hey, I suppose you can go ahead and live your life in a manner that makes you likely to have chronic health problems and the doctors will happily charge you for it. Assuming you can afford it.
But in a subsidised system, I reckon doctors are perfectly entitled to say that there's quite enough unavoidable illness for them to treat without people heaping up massive amounts of avoidable illness to go with it.
[ 19. February 2013, 20:57: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
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Originally posted by blackbeard:
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Originally posted by orfeo:
Just to go back to the "oh, doctors should just up and fix us after we've ruined things" line of thinking...
You'd be wrong to assume that they can fix you. If you become diabetic due to a high sugar diet, they probably can't fix you. They can probably only help you manage and survive the condition you've landed yourself with.
Ever since I studied biochemistry at university, I've found the prospect of diabetes horrific. It means one of THE most fundamental metabolic processes in your body isn't working. Seriously, I go queasy just thinking about it.
And while some people suffer diabetes for other reasons, huge numbers of diabetics result from 'lifestyle'. From people sitting around and consuming large quantities of crappy food.
The idea that doctors are supposed to just sit back, shut up and watch this happening on an ever-increasing scale, but then come running after a person's body rebels against the abuse and stops making insulin... No. Just no.
Orfeo, I do take your point, but ...
... like my esteemed namesake, I am of a spare build and with a fairly active lifestyle. Also I tend to avoid junk food.
Blackbeard, type 2 diabetic
I thought I made it clear that I don't think every single diabetic has caused their illness in this fashion. But doctors are pretty clear on this point: the rate of diabetes is growing. Rapidly. And they're pretty clear as to why.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alf Wiedersehen
Apprentice
# 17421
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Posted
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Originally posted by Enoch:
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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
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Originally posted by Enoch:
What do they want children to drink?
Water? Milk?
I remember an exchange student back in the 1960s being quite shocked at English children drinking tea by the mug full, and being told it was provided as a matter of course in schools.
Yes, it is the same in Germany. The fact that my 15 year old son enjoys a cup of PG with me in the morning sends people into shock: "He's too young!"
As for what we want our children to drink; herbal infusions like peppermint, cammomile or carraway seed tea. Yum.
Posts: 6 | From: Berlin, Germany | Registered: Nov 2012
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
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Originally posted by ken:
An honest health Nazi would want to tax artificial sweeteners as well. They are plausibly potentially even more dangerous because it is possible that they fool your body into thinking you are taking in sugar when you aren't, which could mess up exactly the same hormone systems which when messed up we call type 2 diabetes. At least for a few minutes. Digestive hormones (or insulin) can be released in anticipation of sugar. (Its not just Pavlov's dogs that salivate before a meal). People eat or drink for all sorts of reasons - out of habit, or for pleasure in the taste, or because they are genuinely hungry or thirsty. If one of the reasons you facy a fizzy drink is because your blood sugar level is falling then if the drink doesn't actually have sugar in it you might go a little more hypo. Possibly. No-one's quite sure. It makes more sense than most of the bollocks diet-peddlers try to tell us though.
There is some evidence that synthetic sweeteners cause the body to release insulin.
There was an experiment done with college students. They were given lemonade, either sweetened with sugar or with a synthetic sweetener. All the subjects had access to a table full of snacks. The subjects could take all they wanted, but they had to let the experimenters see exactly how much they were taking. The ones who got the synthetically sweetened drink took enough more snacks that the number of calories they consumed was approximately equal to the number consumed by those who had drunk the sugared lemonade.
Personal anecdotes do not provide solid proof of anything, but I had an experience that convinced me I should stay away from synthetic sweeteners. I was in an extremely stressful situation; I had eaten only a piece of toast for breakfast and nothing for lunch; it was three in the afternoon. Someone offered me ginger ale, which I drank. It was artificially sweetened, and as soon as my tongue tasted the sweetness, my body released insulin. Within five minutes I felt very light-headed and nauseated. I had to drink three glasses of orange juice before my head cleard.
I believe that people react differently to synthetic sweeteners, but I know that for me they are very bad news.
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I used to call skimmed milk 'chalky water.' Now I drink nothing else and have it on my cornflakes and in my porridge (with sweeteners)
BUT I have to have full fat milk in my coffee.
Also, I always drink Pepsi Max now. Pepsi always tastes better than Coke and diet Coke is just so watery!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I used to call skimmed milk 'chalky water.' Now I drink nothing else and have it on my cornflakes and in my porridge (with sweeteners)
BUT I have to have full fat milk in my coffee.
If you're counting carbs, then half-and-half has fewer carbs per ounce than skimmed milk (and tastes infinitely better on cereal). Cream has even fewer carbs, although on some cereals it can be too heavy. I think heavy cream (or double cream, as you Brits call it) is simply divine on Weetabix, though.
Back in the days when I was adding milk to my coffee, I preferred evaporated milk. I've drunk it black for years now, though, and couldn't drink it any other way -- the stronger the better.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
BUT I have to have full fat milk in my coffee.
I insist on light cream. The fat in the cream cuts the bitterness of the coffee.
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
I imagine, Miss Amanda, that it depends on whether you are counting carbs or counting calories. By and large, it's calories that taste good.
But in any case, cream on cereal is an Indulgence for the Flesh and therefore Sinful (but sounds yummy!).
In my Youth, a long time ago, you could get Channel Islands milk (I used to imagine fast ships (specially built with milk tanks) crossing the Channel, but maybe it just implies Channel Islands breeds of cattle). This was extra creamy, and people said "Just look at the goodness" as the cream formed a yellowish band at the top. If you were careful you could get this on your cereal, and the rest of the family had to make do with the milk underneath. There was a cost premium of roughly 20% but people still bought it (to bring this back on topic).
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I prefer skimmed milk ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Full-fat is undrinkable to me, far too rich and creamy and just unpleasant. I don't like cream in coffee either, although Vietnamese-style with condensed milk in it is nice sometimes. I have my tea strong with not much milk in it, and full-fat milk ruins it. I prefer toast to cereal anyway, too.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
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Originally posted by Alf Wiedersehen:
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Originally posted by Enoch:
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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
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Originally posted by Enoch:
What do they want children to drink?
Water? Milk?
I remember an exchange student back in the 1960s being quite shocked at English children drinking tea by the mug full, and being told it was provided as a matter of course in schools.
Yes, it is the same in Germany. The fact that my 15 year old son enjoys a cup of PG with me in the morning sends people into shock: "He's too young!"
Kids were certainly tea drinkers in my part of the world when I was young. One of my first memories was of the yellow plastic sippi cup I kept at my granny's for my tea drinking. Never used for anything else. And an Ulster fry cannot be eaten with any other beverage!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Thanks for the info about milk! I shall go back to semi-skimmed instead of skimmed now that I know it has fewer carbs in it ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
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Originally posted by blackbeard:
In my Youth, a long time ago, you could get Channel Islands milk. . . . This was extra creamy, and people said "Just look at the goodness" as the cream formed a yellowish band at the top. If you were careful you could get this on your cereal, and the rest of the family had to make do with the milk underneath.
You've brought back a childhood memory. There was a dairy over here that sold "Golden Guernsey" milk (although I imagine the cows, not the milk, had been brought over from the Channel Islands). We also used to skim the cream off the top of the bottle for our cereal.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Thanks for the info about milk! I shall go back to semi-skimmed instead of skimmed now that I know it has fewer carbs in it
Cream has even fewer carbs.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
There seem to be some people who actually prefer skim milk
It's the only kind I will buy.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Again, if people think that what they put in their tea or coffee is a major source of their "carbs", they are highly likely to be incorrect.
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Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
A lot of what we drink is down to habit - and habits can be changed.
I had to cut down the acid/tannin content of my tea, so I started drinking Redbush. It's an acquired taste but I have well and truly acquired it. I dislike 'normal' tea now!
The same with milk - I used to love whole milk but since being in semi skimmed, I now find it tastes 'greasy'.
Surely children could also 'unacquire' the taste for fizzy drinks/pop/soda?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
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Originally posted by Boogie:
... Surely children could also 'unacquire' the taste for fizzy drinks/pop/soda?
Yebbut, what make's that the government's business?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
... Surely children could also 'unacquire' the taste for fizzy drinks/pop/soda?
Yebbut, what make's that the government's business?
It's the Government's business, dear Enoch, because the Government will have to pick up massive bills for the care of large numbers of seriously disabled people who are no longer able to care for themselves. You may say they should pay for their own care, but such money as they (and their family and friends) have will run our rather swiftly. I don't want to go into detail on the effects of untreated type 2 diabetes - my learned friend Orfeo will again go into detail should you ask, and you will appreciate this is a topic close to me - save to say that care for such people is VERY expensive, and that when I say the Government will pick up the bill, I really Enoch, taxpayer.
On top of which, the tax burden will fall on fewer people since the effects of type 2 diabetes will mean that some people of working age will be unable to work, so will pay no (or not much) tax, leaving the burden to fall on others. Such as Enoch.
Further, it's not just diabetes, many other unpleasant, possibly disabling, possibly fatal, conditions are associated with obesity, as I'm sure you know, so I won't go into unpleasant details.
And - it's not just a question of supplying drugs to stabilise the condition. Quite a lot can be said on this, I'll just say that people who do not actually feel ill can be very unwilling to take drugs, even when they are supplied free, as has been discussed in some other contexts. Regrettable, but true.
Some of us would say that the Government DOES have a duty of care for the health and welfare of its citizens.
Of course there is a line to be drawn between care and interference, and so far as possible people should look after themselves. Where to draw the line is a difficult exercise, one with which this thread has been much concerned.
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Well, I'm not that learned, as my biochemistry textbook has already shown me that I stuffed up by suggesting the body stopped producing insulin. Generally the wrong diabetes type.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
There seem to be some people who actually prefer skim milk rather than grimly choosing it as a heroic act of self-denial to keep calories down.
Whole milk is much nicer to drink straight, and better in almost all recipies you use milk to cook with. But skimmed milk can be better in tea. Its the protein part of the milk that interacts with the tannins and makes black tea less harsh to drink, not the fat. The cream just floats to the top and makes a nasty glutinous moputhfeel gets in the way of the taste of the tea. The opposite of coffee, which doesn't have the harsh tannins, but can benefit from creaminess, and its possible that the fat absorbs some fat-soluble stong-tasting stuff in it.. So split your milk in two, put the creamy part in cofee and the other part in tea! ("Cream tea" is not tea with cream in it. Its a snack with scones with jam and cream or cream cakes)
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I don't ever remember "lemonade" as generic, although in my childhood, both "lemonade" and "coke" were often used to indicate the availability of a range of carbonated beverages including the one named. "Fizzy drink" was always the standard generic name, "pop" was used occasionally, and "soda" never. I don't think I ever heard "soft drink" outside a restaurant.
These things are notoriously local. One town can use different names than the next town. I have a personal and completely unproveable theory that its because the fizzy drinks industry grew up in the early 19th century, just before the railways and the telegraphs and so on. Because the stuff is cheap, and can be made anywhere, and is heavy to transport, most towns would have had there own lemonade factory. And regional or even local names would develop. Same goes for the names for large bread rolls, another notoriously local thing. And to a lesser extend railways themselves - technical names for parts of trains are different on differnet sides of the Atrlantic, or even between different railway systems in the same country. Manufactured goods that were traded over long distances would take their names with them. Things invented after we had railways and telephones and cinema and radio and so on tend to have the same names because we all learn then at once. But there is a sort of window of mass-produced localism between about the 1760s and 1860s. Well, that's my speculation anyway.
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When I was growing up, fizzy drinks were definitely a treat. We only had them with meals at birthday parties and similar events. The standard "child drink" was probably squash, either orange or lemon.
Yes, definitely. Squash, especially for very young kids. And also milk. And as you grew older, more and more tea, which was the usual drink to have with meals by the age of maybe 9 or 10. Though I'm pretty sure I was drinking tea at breakfast from the age of 3 or so. And cocoa before bedtime!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
We still drink squash with family meals (or water) - is this very old-fashioned or does anyone else still do so? Fizzy drinks are only for when other children are visiting or when the adults are having wine at the weekend.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Fizzy is for special occasions. Rest of the time with meals it's squash if you're a sprog and want it, water otherwise.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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