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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Queen in. God out
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Arch Anglo Catholic
Shipmate
# 15181
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Posted
On dear old Radio 4 this morning the Bishop presenting 'Thought for the Day' opined that children promising to develop their own beliefs is as odd as allowing children to develop their own code for road safety.
Sometimes adult/leaders need to guide (no pun intended) but the new promise makes no provision for that and maybe faith has a placed in that.
Ah well.
Posts: 144 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2009
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
Ah, the classic 'without us you wouldn't know shit from clay' attitude which has so endeared the Church of England to millions.
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Indeed. Whereas idolatry of the self and monarch are very much the order of the day in 21st Century Britain.
I assume you mean the 'be true to myself' bit. I really don't think that children need their egos broken down at a point when they're only beginning to achieve individuation.
By "individuation" do you mean the ability to say "me" and "mine"? I think you'll find that children achieve these things long before the age when they go to Brownies.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
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Arch Anglo Catholic
Shipmate
# 15181
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Posted
I'm not sure if the CofE view has to endear itself to others all the time; sometimes mother church has to be inconveniently, uncomfortably right.
I'm not angry about the loss of the faith and country dimension from the promise, just really rather ...sad.
Posts: 144 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2009
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Croesos:
An invitation to prayer in a Christian context is part and parcel of exploring Christianity.
There's a difference between encouraging people to explore Christianity and spending a significant amount of time in the meetings forcing it upon them, which I did not advocate.
The words 'grows people spiritually' are not synonymous with 'gives people spiritual attributes nobody else has.'
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arch Anglo Catholic:
On dear old Radio 4 this morning the Bishop presenting 'Thought for the Day' opined that children promising to develop their own beliefs is as odd as allowing children to develop their own code for road safety.
Which just goes to show that it's a good idea to think through your Thought for the Day in advance, rather than letting it emerge onto the airwaves as a spontaneous brainfart.
[ 20. June 2013, 12:41: Message edited by: Pre-cambrian ]
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Beethoven
Ship's deaf genius
# 114
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
[QB] So, in order to be inclusive and to make everybody feel comfortable, the Girl Guide promise has been changed and God omitted.
Hmmm, not quite. The change was made because many members had asked for a promise review, and because the majority of respondents supported these particular changes. Plenty of (older) girls (and some younger ones, in fairness) and potential leaders were unable to make the promise as it stood. OK, so membership of Girlguiding is entirely optional, and no-one has to sign up if they don't agree - but it seems to me that the new promise doesn't change what the organisation stands for, but finally opens it up to those for whom this point in their spiritual journey doesn't include any God. It may have in the past; it may in the future; but just because it doesn't now, they have nothign to offer or to gain? Really?
And for anyone who thinks the 'be true to myself' is just licence to do whatever I feel like, how about a bit of context. The Guide laws are:
quote:
A Guide is honest, reliable and can be trusted.
A Guide is helpful and uses her time and abilities wisely.
A Guide faces challenge and learns from her experiences.
A Guide is a good friend and a sister to all Guides.
A Guide is polite and considerate.
A Guide respects all living things and takes care of the world around her.
I'm happy to try to live by those laws - they're certainly a challenge at times, and I don't exactly see much scope in there for self-indulgence!
I'm taking over a Brownie unit in the autumn, and have to say I'm much happier about the prospect of discussing the new promise with the girls than trying to explain 'love my God' to children who have little or no concept of faith or God, let alone what loving Him might mean...
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Who wants to be a rock anyway?
toujours gai!
Posts: 1309 | From: Here (and occasionally there) | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
quote:
Originally posted by Arch Anglo Catholic:
On dear old Radio 4 this morning the Bishop presenting 'Thought for the Day' opined that children promising to develop their own beliefs is as odd as allowing children to develop their own code for road safety.
Which just goes to show that it's a good idea to think through your Thought for the Day in advance, rather than letting it emerge onto the airwaves as a spontaneous brainfart.
Yes - I was disappointed - Bishop Tom Butler usually does a lot better than that.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Indeed. Whereas idolatry of the self and monarch are very much the order of the day in 21st Century Britain.
I assume you mean the 'be true to myself' bit. I really don't think that children need their egos broken down at a point when they're only beginning to achieve individuation.
By "individuation" do you mean the ability to say "me" and "mine"? I think you'll find that children achieve these things long before the age when they go to Brownies.
Oh indeed, I meant the process by which children begin to be able to tell their own opinions from those of their parents/other adult authority figures. There's probably another word for it.
quote:
Originally posted by Arch Anglo Catholic:
I'm not sure if the CofE view has to endear itself to others all the time; sometimes mother church has to be inconveniently, uncomfortably right.
I think we have plenty of references by now for the conclusion that this attitude won't fly in a buyer's market.
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
This change acknowledges the shift in conformity over the decades; active religious observance is no longer part of the fabric of received ideas among those who like their children to put on uniforms and pledge oaths to the powerful.
Indeed. Whereas idolatry of the self and monarch are very much the order of the day in 21st Century Britain.
That's how it struck me too: rather self-centred and self-indulgent; not sure whether these are values we should be inculcating in our children.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
That's how it struck me too: rather self-centred and self-indulgent; not sure whether these are values we should be inculcating in our children.
I take the opposite opinion and am usually suspicious of groups that take steps to obliterate members' individuality or sense of self. That's how cults get started.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Whereas encouraging selfishness helps society how, exactly?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
That's how it struck me too: rather self-centred and self-indulgent; not sure whether these are values we should be inculcating in our children.
I wasn't aware you and Hairy Biker had kids together. Should have lurked more.
Forgive my flippancy. I know what you mean! You mean the children who are the property of the Church of England.
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I take the opposite opinion and am usually suspicious of groups that take steps to obliterate members' individuality or sense of self. That's how cults get started.
^ This.
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Whereas encouraging selfishness helps society how, exactly?
It makes people less likely to knuckle under to abusive authority figures, for example.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
...and go on to become bankers and wreck economies?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
Check out Beethoven's quote of the Guide laws. Like I said, self-determination is not vanity, and to tell children that they have a responsibility to develop themselves is likely to be more beneficial than trying to make them equate the authority of the group with their duty to God.
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
...and go on to become bankers and wreck economies?
Sorry, is this a real worry? That too many Girl Guides will take jobs in the financial services sector?
Just out of curiosity, which jobs for young women do you consider require the appropriate lack of individuality?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
...and go on to become bankers and wreck economies?
....and go on to become bankers who perhaps don't wreck economies because they have a sufficiently robust sense of self-identity and personal morality to stand up against profit-driven management demands.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
...and go on to become bankers and wreck economies?
....and go on to become bankers who perhaps don't wreck economies because they have a sufficiently robust sense of self-identity and personal morality to stand up against profit-driven management demands.
In a lot of ways large corporations tend to require subsuming the self in pursuit of corporate interests. For example, individual corporate officers may personally have objections to dumping toxic waste in the local lake or using Third World slave labor but their fiduciary duty dictates that they pursue whatever policy is best for the corporate bottom line.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
The Guides (Miss Tor is now a Ranger, having done Rainbows, Brownies and Guides. I'm also treasurer of her group) has always put a strong emphasis on personal development, through earning badges and awards. These are not earned corporately, but individually, through demonstrating the skills and knowledge the challenge requires.
All those who are bemoaning the sudden rise of 'be true to yourself' and 'develop your faith' are missing the whole point: they have always done this since the very start.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Guides (Miss Tor is now a Ranger, having done Rainbows, Brownies and Guides. I'm also treasurer of her group) has always put a strong emphasis on personal development, through earning badges and awards. These are not earned corporately, but individually, through demonstrating the skills and knowledge the challenge requires.
Badges?!? Earned individually!?! I'm sure you mean tiny little idols to the self. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
...and go on to become bankers and wreck economies?
Sorry, is this a real worry? That too many Girl Guides will take jobs in the financial services sector?
No more of a real worry IMO than the previous promise wording causing people to submit to authoritarianism.
quote:
Just out of curiosity, which jobs for young women do you consider require the appropriate lack of individuality?
I didn't mention individuality. I mentioned selfishness. Step away from the straw man...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Yeah, I don't get this. Thinking for oneself, standing by ones thought out convictions and working out one's own faith seem like damned good values to me, and nothing to do with selfishness. I'm not quite sure what others would rather we inculcate. It almost sounds like some people want to tell the little brats what to believe and they'd better damned well believe it, but I'm sure that's not it, so I'm missing something.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Badges?!? Earned individually!?! I'm sure you mean tiny little idols to the self.
Fortunately, she's now at an age where she sews the bastard things on her Guide blanket herself...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I didn't mention individuality. I mentioned selfishness. Step away from the straw man...
No, it seems you equated individuality with 'selfishness'. The wording of the new promise, combined with the existing Guide laws, do not seem likely to valorise selfishness.
[ 20. June 2013, 16:35: Message edited by: Plique-à-jour ]
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Yeah, I don't get this. Thinking for oneself, standing by ones thought out convictions and working out one's own faith seem like damned good values to me, and nothing to do with selfishness. I'm not quite sure what others would rather we inculcate. It almost sounds like some people want to tell the little brats what to believe and they'd better damned well believe it, but I'm sure that's not it, so I'm missing something.
Why are you so sure about that? If someone objects to the idea that young girls should "be true to myself and develop my beliefs", it seems to follow that they believe such youngsters should be true to someone/something other than themselves and let someone else develop their beliefs for them. Particularly if having your own beliefs is considered "selfish".
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I look forward to excising the Queen from the promise as well. I'd quite like to help out our local scouts as a leader, but not whilst I have to make some vague ill-defined promise of "duty" to a head of state whose position is based entirely on an accident of birth and therefore whose legitimacy in a modern democracy I have limited confidence in.
Accident of birth? That is ridicuhous - the Queen is God's chosen servant. His world is no random chaos. We have an explicitly Christian monarchy. No theology that I know of could conceive that this was a cosmic accident, except one which denies the omnipotence of God.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Accident of birth? That is ridicuhous - the Queen is God's chosen servant. His world is no random chaos. We have an explicitly Christian monarchy. No theology that I know of could conceive that this was a cosmic accident, except one which denies the omnipotence of God.
Pfft.
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Forward the New Republic
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Accident of birth? That is ridiculous - the Queen is God's chosen servant. His world is no random chaos. We have an explicitly Christian monarchy. No theology that I know of could conceive that this was a cosmic accident, except one which denies the omnipotence of God.
The problem with assuming divine right is that it can be extended to any successful governing enterprise. For example, since God is omnipotent He made Charles I the King of England. Since nothing can happen that it contrary to God's will, God then decided that Charles I should be executed and replaced by the Council of State/Lord Protector Cromwell. Then God, being fairly fickle, decided to replace the lot of them with Charles II.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Accident of birth? That is ridiculous - the Queen is God's chosen servant. His world is no random chaos. We have an explicitly Christian monarchy. No theology that I know of could conceive that this was a cosmic accident, except one which denies the omnipotence of God.
The problem with assuming divine right is that it can be extended to any successful governing enterprise. For example, since God is omnipotent He made Charles I the King of England. Since nothing can happen that it contrary to God's will, God then decided that Charles I should be executed and replaced by the Council of State/Lord Protector Cromwell. Then God, being fairly fickle, decided to replace the lot of them with Charles II.
This was all part of His holy plan to bring King William over and defend us finally from the foreign tyrannies of France and Rome. We were being admonished for misbehaving by being saddled with the likes of Cromwell. Upon restorimg the BCP we were made into the foremost power on earth and the greatest empire ever known.
He also sank the Spanish armada the century before. God is clearly showing us something here.
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
This was all part of His holy plan to bring King William over and defend us finally from the foreign tyrannies of France and Rome.
Given God's omnipotence, didn't he establish the tyrannies of France and Rome? Or are they only tyrannical when they show up in Britain?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Accident of birth? That is ridiculous - the Queen is God's chosen servant. His world is no random chaos. We have an explicitly Christian monarchy. No theology that I know of could conceive that this was a cosmic accident, except one which denies the omnipotence of God.
The problem with assuming divine right is that it can be extended to any successful governing enterprise. For example, since God is omnipotent He made Charles I the King of England. Since nothing can happen that it contrary to God's will, God then decided that Charles I should be executed and replaced by the Council of State/Lord Protector Cromwell. Then God, being fairly fickle, decided to replace the lot of them with Charles II.
This was all part of His holy plan to bring King William over and defend us finally from the foreign tyrannies of France and Rome. We were being admonished for misbehaving by being saddled with the likes of Cromwell. Upon restorimg the BCP we were made into the foremost power on earth and the greatest empire ever known.
He also sank the Spanish armada the century before. God is clearly showing us something here.
Erm, there was more than one armada from Spain, some of them defeated us. Armada just means navy. If you are talking about the 1588 battle from the Anglo-Spanish War of 1585-1604 (we lost the counter-attack of 1589), then it has nothing to do with religion.
And was Charles II not God's chosen King, according to you? Or Mary II God's chosen Queen, the person who actually had the right to be on the throne in her own right?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Upon restorimg the BCP we were made into the foremost power on earth and the greatest empire ever known.
He also sank the Spanish armada the century before. God is clearly showing us something here.
Oh! You're taking the piss. Never mind, then.
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Upon restorimg the BCP we were made into the foremost power on earth and the greatest empire ever known.
Second greatest, if you're counting by land area. God apparently likes Mongols better.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Church is an organisation that wouldn't exist without God.
The Guides is an organisation that would.
To be fair, there are probably a couple of CofE priests who reckon that the Church could get along quite well without God.
Wasn't it Sir Humphrey who said in Yes, Minister something to the effect that if a new Bishop believed in God that would be a bonus?
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I look forward to excising the Queen from the promise as well. I'd quite like to help out our local scouts as a leader, but not whilst I have to make some vague ill-defined promise of "duty" to a head of state whose position is based entirely on an accident of birth and therefore whose legitimacy in a modern democracy I have limited confidence in.
Accident of birth? That is ridicuhous - the Queen is God's chosen servant. His world is no random chaos. We have an explicitly Christian monarchy. No theology that I know of could conceive that this was a cosmic accident, except one which denies the omnipotence of God.
Interesting that he's chosen an adulterer to be her successor. In fact, over the centuries he's chosen rather a lot of adulterers and drunkards.
[ 20. June 2013, 17:53: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I look forward to excising the Queen from the promise as well. I'd quite like to help out our local scouts as a leader, but not whilst I have to make some vague ill-defined promise of "duty" to a head of state whose position is based entirely on an accident of birth and therefore whose legitimacy in a modern democracy I have limited confidence in.
Accident of birth? That is ridicuhous - the Queen is God's chosen servant. His world is no random chaos. We have an explicitly Christian monarchy. No theology that I know of could conceive that this was a cosmic accident, except one which denies the omnipotence of God.
Interesting that he's chosen an adulterer to be her successor. In fact, over the centuries he's chosen rather a lot of adulterers and drunkards.
Not to mention 'effemirate homosexuals'....
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
I forgot about James I!
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
And Richard I. And possibly Richard II. Definitely Edward II. Probably Anne.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Mr Tambourine Man
Shipmate
# 15361
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Posted
Despite being anti-monarchist I never found it hard to swear to 'do my duty to God and to the Queen' as the scouts required. My exegesis of the promise was that said duty was to put the royal family out of a job so that they could live more normal lives away from an impossible role.
Could atheists be similarly imaginative in their exegesis as this Christian republican?
[ 20. June 2013, 18:44: Message edited by: Mr Tambourine Man ]
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
And Richard I.
Maybe homosexual, but not "effemirate". If I recall history correctly he actually fought against the Effemir of Effegypt and Effdamascus during the effing Third Crusade.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
Of course Arsenal will now always play at the Effemirates Stadium! ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Accident of birth? That is ridiculous - the Queen is God's chosen servant. His world is no random chaos. We have an explicitly Christian monarchy. No theology that I know of could conceive that this was a cosmic accident, except one which denies the omnipotence of God.
The problem with assuming divine right is that it can be extended to any successful governing enterprise. For example, since God is omnipotent He made Charles I the King of England. Since nothing can happen that it contrary to God's will, God then decided that Charles I should be executed and replaced by the Council of State/Lord Protector Cromwell. Then God, being fairly fickle, decided to replace the lot of them with Charles II.
This was all part of His holy plan to bring King William over and defend us finally from the foreign tyrannies of France and Rome. We were being admonished for misbehaving by being saddled with the likes of Cromwell. Upon restorimg the BCP we were made into the foremost power on earth and the greatest empire ever known.
He also sank the Spanish armada the century before. God is clearly showing us something here.
I suppose the Galileans whose blood Pilate mixed with their sacrifices, the residents in the Tower of Siloam and the parents of the Man Born Blind were using the Alternative Service Book.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Emily Windsor-Cragg
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# 17687
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Posted
1. Shall we INCLUDE EVIL, in being inclusive? ... include predators and parasites against our society?
2. Shall we INCLUDE ERROR, in being inclusive? ... include members of ideologies inimicle to our goals and objectives?
3. Shall we INCLUDE IGNORANCE, in being inclusive? include those without the social skills to even know what we're talking about?
4. Shall we INCLUDE THOSE HAVING NO KNOWLEDGE of our Covenant, our History, our Values in being inclusive? ... include people who have no appreciation for what CIVILITY actually means?
what is the ADVANTAGE in including people who cannot REACH civil status or peer status or companion status?
I don't get what you're leading up to?
Emily
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Posts: 326 | From: California | Registered: May 2013
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Shall we learn to use bold ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Emily Windsor-Cragg
Shipmate
# 17687
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Shall we learn to use bold ?
We can learn to do whatever enhances our ability to articulate.
Is shouting better than civil speech?
Em ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 326 | From: California | Registered: May 2013
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
No, but CAPITALS are the textual equivalent of shouting - and *very* annoying to the reader.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I didn't mention individuality. I mentioned selfishness. Step away from the straw man...
No, it seems you equated individuality with 'selfishness'. The wording of the new promise, combined with the existing Guide laws, do not seem likely to valorise selfishness.
I hope you're right; to me though, like I guess to Hairy Biker, it comes across as rather like Thatcher's "no such thing as society, only individuals and families" comment. It seems that you and others here see no harm in it and I hope you are therefore proved right, but I can't help having my qualms...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I didn't mention individuality. I mentioned selfishness. Step away from the straw man...
No, it seems you equated individuality with 'selfishness'. The wording of the new promise, combined with the existing Guide laws, do not seem likely to valorise selfishness.
I hope you're right; to me though, like I guess to Hairy Biker, it comes across as rather like Thatcher's "no such thing as society, only individuals and families" comment. It seems that you and others here see no harm in it and I hope you are therefore proved right, but I can't help having my qualms...
It looks more to me like personal integrity.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
YMMV! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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