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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Isn't it time IngoB took up golf?
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Thanks. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
ETA: Oh, boy. What a post for a page turn. quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Erm. May I interrupt this dis-IngpB-fest to ask what "llawloqae" means?
I googled it- no luck. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
"long, logical answers with lots of quotes and examples"
Took me a minute too.
[ 03. December 2013, 21:16: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So how does my unchangeable terrified murderous monkey nature category make my admittedly way too late awareness category of progressive revelation invalid or meaningless or the same thing?
Do you find?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I find it difficult to see how a llawloqae dismissing everything you think I've said constitutes an effort to try to understand me.
If I disagree with everything that I understood you as saying, then compiling this into a lengthy, well-argued post seems like rather clear evidence of effort to me.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Especially when I reply to your llawloqae with "I don't think you understood me. Here's what I've been trying to say," and you just do it again. I think there are better ways to try to understand someone you're debating with.
And if I either disagree with your judgement that I did not understand you the first time around, or if I disagree with what you say now instead, then it is a perfectly fine reaction to explain this to you once more.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
After you arrived on the Ship 9 years ago, when I was still relatively fresh too, I tried to have a discussion with you, I think it was about a topic related to Theoretical Physics. I was interested in hearing what you'd have to say about a thought of mine, but I never succeeded to hear it, because you were constantly busy trying to dismiss what you thought I said.
Seriously? Are you trying to achieve some kind of world record in grudge-keeping?
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
That's true, but since this is Hell, I'd like to register that I'm growing a bit tired with a number of Shipmates parroting each other about what a 'superior intellect' you have. I'm not in that crowd.
Fine with me. Seriously, it is.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
What I meant was I do not see IngoB as very questioning of official RCC viewpoints. If you've no room for questions, you've no room for unrest.
I've always been on the margins of the various RC communities I have belonged to, and I'm not shy about asking all sorts of questions of all sorts of RCs, all the way up to the pope. (Or at least I do so here.) Orthodoxy happens to be what anchors me in this faith community, but it is pretty naive to think that this makes me a tranquil MOTR representative thereof.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I don't think I'd ever call you "middle-of-the-road" myself.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
We're all in the middle of a road.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
...and always in danger of getting flattened. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
IngoB: If I disagree with everything that I understood you as saying, then compiling this into a lengthy, well-argued post seems like rather clear evidence of effort to me.
Effort yes, but not an effort to try to understand what I was saying.
quote:
IngoB: And if I either disagree with your judgement that I did not understand you the first time around, or if I disagree with what you say now instead, then it is a perfectly fine reaction to explain this to you once more.
Now I'm the one who doesn't understand what you're saying.
quote:
IngoB: Seriously? Are you trying to achieve some kind of world record in grudge-keeping?
I don't hold grudges, I just gave an example to explain what the results of your posting style are.
But I don't expect you to understand that.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
We're all in the middle of a road.
"Ain't nothin' in the middle of the road except yeller lines and dead armadillos" - Jim Hightower.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
What I meant was I do not see IngoB as very questioning of official RCC viewpoints. If you've no room for questions, you've no room for unrest.
I've always been on the margins of the various RC communities I have belonged to, and I'm not shy about asking all sorts of questions of all sorts of RCs, all the way up to the pope. (Or at least I do so here.) Orthodoxy happens to be what anchors me in this faith community, but it is pretty naive to think that this makes me a tranquil MOTR representative thereof.
This is not the impression I had of you. I apologise for misjudging you in this.
I still do not care for your methods of engagement, perhaps I let this cloud my vision. I do not offer this as an excuse, it is not.
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
It seems to me you don't have an understanding of orthodox believers. People who grow up and remain in their faith often question the reasons for their belief in order to gain a better unerstanding. Converts often come to an orthodox faith precisely through a process of questioning and I would think IngoB is a perfect example of that.
This is the definition of orthodox I was using.
quote:
Adhering to what is commonly accepted, customary, or traditional
IngoB says he questions, so it appears I am incorrect about this.
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
You're judging people's quality of "unrest" after they've arrived at the answers because you do not like the answers they've found.
If I question anyone's answers here, it is because I do not think they are meeting their own basic standards. Not based on my likes. There will be disagreements as to the interpretation of those standards.
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I came to Jesus Christ so I could have life everlasting, not so I could wallow perpetually in your definition of self-referential "unrest".
Self-referential? I thought I was referencing this site's motto.
Perpetually wallow? No. Not saying one should always be uncertain, just don't get too complacent.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Faith is neither opinion nor speculation, it is solid conviction.
Not in English it ain't.
The Oxford Dictionary of English on my Mac has
faith
1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
Then I don't have faith nor does anybody I have ever talk to this about, except you. Only an idiot, a fool, or an egomaniac thinks their faith is completely solid.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I have become complacent in my perpetual uncertainty.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Then I don't have faith nor does anybody I have ever talk to this about, except you. Only an idiot, a fool, or an egomaniac thinks their faith is completely solid.
I assume the operative word here is 'completely', which you added in order to gain some purchase?
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Not sure St Thomas had the sort of faith IngoB is holding up, either.
It is really not all that difficult to look up what St Thomas thought about this, why not simply do so?
quote:
If, on the other hand, "to think" be understood in the second way [consideration of the intellect, which is accompanied by some kind of inquiry, and which precedes the intellect's arrival at the stage of perfection that comes with the certitude of sight], then this expresses completely the nature of the act of believing. For among the acts belonging to the intellect, some have a firm assent without any such kind of thinking, as when a man considers the things that he knows by science, or understands, for this consideration is already formed. But some acts of the intellect have unformed thought devoid of a firm assent, whether they incline to neither side, as in one who "doubts"; or incline to one side rather than the other, but on account of some slight motive, as in one who "suspects"; or incline to one side yet with fear of the other, as in one who "opines." But this act "to believe," cleaves firmly to one side, in which respect belief has something in common with science and understanding; yet its knowledge does not attain the perfection of clear sight, wherein it agrees with doubt, suspicion and opinion. Hence it is proper to the believer to think with assent: so that the act of believing is distinguished from all the other acts of the intellect, which are about the true or the false.
Unsurprisingly, I agree with all of this. In other threads I have called that an "operational certainty", for the mind operates with certitude as if something has been demonstrated conclusively.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I like IngoB's fabulously imperious style, and I suspect those who find it unpalatable and wish he'd respect their human feelings better are deficient in some way, and know it. And I like it despite (and because of) the fact that he trashes everything I ever post here.
Grow the fuck up, babies. You're incredibly lucky that the guy spends some of his time with this website, as it would be seriously diminished without him.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Then I don't have faith nor does anybody I have ever talk to this about, except you. Only an idiot, a fool, or an egomaniac thinks their faith is completely solid.
I assume the operative word here is 'completely', which you added in order to gain some purchase?
Um, no, "complete" came from the definition YOU supplied. Nice try.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
And really, what does it mean to say your conviction is solid, but not completely solid? Huh?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I like IngoB's fabulously imperious style, and I suspect those who find it unpalatable and wish he'd respect their human feelings better are deficient in some way, and know it.
I am deficient in many ways, and know it. This doesn't, however, make me crawl along on my belly. I am used to my deficiencies and work with them.
I am not asking for IngoB to respect human feelings for me (I never engage him in debate anyway) but for others and the sake of the debate. I strongly suspect it would be more interesting without the slanging matches.
Hmmm ... maybe not ... ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Ingo:
Beginner's mind, perhaps?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Boogie,there is no such thing as the debate. The sort of discussion we have here is more like the interactions of a busy street market in which people come and go, entering into passing conversations with individuals and small groups, with stall-keepers hawking and a general hubbub about the place, and of course the occasional constable on his beat, watching for pocket-pickers and apple-stealers and swinging his truncheon. In any thread, you can have as many styles of debate as you have posters contributing, as we each bring different ways of interchanging with others, and we all have our own idea of what we want to get from the transaction. As long as our behaviour remains within the 10Cs, this great diversity should be welcomed and encouraged, as it is the life spirit of the Ship.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Um, no, "complete" came from the definition YOU supplied. Nice try.
My own definition - or comment, really - was "Faith is neither opinion nor speculation, it is solid conviction." You then claimed that such opinion was unheard of in the Anglosaxon world ("Not in English it ain't." - for crying out loud...). I then refuted that by providing a similar entry from the OED. That OED entry does have the word "complete" in it, in one of its two parts. There it speaks of "complete trust". Whether it is reasonable for you to now transfer the word from that part of the OED definition to my comment, creating "completely solid conviction" would have to be argued. By you.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And really, what does it mean to say your conviction is solid, but not completely solid? Huh?
You may not have realized it, but I was asking you a question about just that. Your statement "Only an idiot, a fool, or an egomaniac thinks their faith is completely solid." is daft, unless you are trying some rhetorical trickery by adding that word. After all, the reason why the OED is giving its definition is because that is what faith commonly is considered to be, in particular among the faithful themselves. So you would be calling a large proportion of all Christians, indeed probably the majority, "idiots, fools or egomaniacs".
I was assuming that instead you were trying to make a rhetorical distinction between "solid" and "completely solid", such that the latter would be entirely unshakeable by any means. Thus it would define a faith blind to all evidence and argument, which shuts out all interaction with the world in order to maintain its convictions no matter what. That sort of faith is indeed one that could be attributed to "idiots, fools or egomaniacs". But of course it could not be attributed to me, other than by the rhetorical sleight of hand of inserting an extra word into my comment.
So what is it going to be mousethief? Are you dissing the majority of actual Christian believers out there, or are you merely continuing your strenuous efforts to throw mud at me in the hope that you can make some of it stick eventually?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
The latter, obviously. It's his stick schtick.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
Grow the fuck up, babies.
Oh, the irony! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Delicious...
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
Grow the fuck up, babies.
Oh, the irony!
Delicious...
I do love it when this kind of response is used.
It's a sophisticated, all-grown-up version of "well it takes one to know one" as used by schoolchildren the world over.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Yet more irony, I see.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
Grow the fuck up, babies.
Oh, the irony!
Delicious...
I do love it when this kind of response is used.
It's a sophisticated, all-grown-up version of "well it takes one to know one" as used by schoolchildren the world over.
You say that like it's never true.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I do love it when this kind of response is used.
No wonder you work so hard to invoke it.
[edit so you're attributing this to the right person...because the wrong person was me! - orfeo]
[ 04. December 2013, 20:58: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Not sure St Thomas had the sort of faith IngoB is holding up, either.
It is really not all that difficult to look up what St Thomas thought about this, why not simply do so?
quote:
If, on the other hand, "to think" be understood in the second way [consideration of the intellect, which is accompanied by some kind of inquiry, and which precedes the intellect's arrival at the stage of perfection that comes with the certitude of sight], then this expresses completely the nature of the act of believing. For among the acts belonging to the intellect, some have a firm assent without any such kind of thinking, as when a man considers the things that he knows by science, or understands, for this consideration is already formed. But some acts of the intellect have unformed thought devoid of a firm assent, whether they incline to neither side, as in one who "doubts"; or incline to one side rather than the other, but on account of some slight motive, as in one who "suspects"; or incline to one side yet with fear of the other, as in one who "opines." But this act "to believe," cleaves firmly to one side, in which respect belief has something in common with science and understanding; yet its knowledge does not attain the perfection of clear sight, wherein it agrees with doubt, suspicion and opinion. Hence it is proper to the believer to think with assent: so that the act of believing is distinguished from all the other acts of the intellect, which are about the true or the false.
Unsurprisingly, I agree with all of this. In other threads I have called that an "operational certainty", for the mind operates with certitude as if something has been demonstrated conclusively.
Is it possible that Curiosity was referring to a different Thomas? The one who doubted, and yet is still regarded as a saint?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
If the story had ended with Thomas doubting, I don't imagine that he would have ended up a saint, any more than Peter would have if the story ended with him denying Jesus.
The praise of Thomas' doubt heard in sermons these days is a modern corruption that justifies the reader and not Jesus.
[ 04. December 2013, 15:01: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Is it possible that Curiosity was referring to a different Thomas? The one who doubted, and yet is still regarded as a saint?
Sorry, that's probably right. My bad! Too much Aquinas on the brain there... But given that most of us will not "see" Jesus like that Thomas, must we not make John 20:29 our own? Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Is it possible that Curiosity was referring to a different Thomas? The one who doubted, and yet is still regarded as a saint?
Sorry, that's probably right. My bad! Too much Aquinas on the brain there... But given that most of us will not "see" Jesus like that Thomas, must we not make John 20:29 our own? Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."
Yes.
And maybe 'seen' could also be taken to mean 'understood'? We don't need to understand every small detail in order to have faith.
Paul wasn't converted by clever argument, it was a spiritual/emotional experience which convinced him.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
If the story had ended with Thomas doubting, I don't imagine that he would have ended up a saint, any more than Peter would have if the story ended with him denying Jesus.
The praise of Thomas' doubt heard in sermons these days is a modern corruption that justifies the reader and not Jesus.
Ma Teresa lived with doubt and uncertainty her whole life, and yet she is a saint.
ETA: We don't praise her FOR her doubt; that's a strawman even applied to Thomas. We praise her because she kept on serving Jesus IN SPITE OF her doubt.
But this worship of solid certainty is misplaced.
[ 04. December 2013, 15:46: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Ma Teresa lived with doubt and uncertainty her whole life, and yet she is a saint.
ETA: We don't praise her FOR her doubt; that's a strawman even applied to Thomas. We praise her because she kept on serving Jesus IN SPITE OF her doubt.
But this worship of solid certainty is misplaced.
Seems you have more of an argument that saints overcome doubt than doubt being this huge virtue which we all should share.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Ma Teresa lived with doubt and uncertainty her whole life, and yet she is a saint.
ETA: We don't praise her FOR her doubt; that's a strawman even applied to Thomas. We praise her because she kept on serving Jesus IN SPITE OF her doubt.
But this worship of solid certainty is misplaced.
Seems you have more of an argument that saints overcome doubt than doubt being this huge virtue which we all should share.
Has anybody on this thread said it's a virtue? I have not. Was yours just a random comment spurred by the fact that the word "doubt" showed up on the thread?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
We're saying IngoB is so evil because he's so certain. The implication of that would be, I suppose, that he would be a better person if he doubted. Thus, Lyda*Rose brings up a biblical example of a saint doubting his Lord.
So I pointed out that Thomas is not praised, in the text, for doubting his Lord, and you have offered another argument that doubt is not to be praised.
[ 04. December 2013, 16:02: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
We're saying IngoB is so evil because he's so certain. The implication of that would be, I suppose, that he would be a better person if he doubted. Thus, Lyda*Rose brings up a biblical example of a saint doubting his Lord.
So I pointed out that Thomas is not praised, in the text, for doubting his Lord, and you have offered another argument that doubt is not to be praised.
Well, "evil" is a bit harsh. But he's an asshole because of the way he acts, and it would seem he acts the way he does because of his certainty, and his mistaking that certainty for virtue. So Lyda*Rose brings up someone who doubted as an example of why the rock-solid certainty is not the only way to approach God and be accepted by him. It's subtle, and you don't do subtlety well, so I forgive you for fucking it up.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Well, "evil" is a bit harsh. But he's an asshole because of the way he acts, and it would seem he acts the way he does because of his certainty, and his mistaking that certainty for virtue. So Lyda*Rose brings up someone who doubted as an example of why the rock-solid certainty is not the only way to approach God and be accepted by him. It's subtle, and you don't do subtlety well, so I forgive you for fucking it up.
That still makes IngoB a better person for doubting, which makes doubt a virtue.
You do nasty comments much better than arguments about vocabulary. Congratulations.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You do nasty comments much better than arguments about vocabulary. Congratulations.
Imagine, nasty comments in Hell. Whatever was I thinking?
No, it doesn't make doubt a virtue. It makes not being an asshole a virtue. You do knee-jerk off-topic comments better than thinking. Congratulations.
[ 04. December 2013, 16:30: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You do nasty comments much better than arguments about vocabulary. Congratulations.
Imagine, nasty comments in Hell. Whatever was I thinking?
No, it doesn't make doubt a virtue. It makes not being an asshole a virtue. You do knee-jerk off-topic comments better than thinking. Congratulations.
I didn't bring up doubting Thomas, and I didn't place the origin of IngoB's assholery in his certainty. You are clearly just slinging whatever mud you can in the hope that some of it sticks.
Which you can do in hell, but it's kind of a pathetic hobby.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
We're saying IngoB is so evil because he's so certain. The implication of that would be, I suppose, that he would be a better person if he doubted. Thus, Lyda*Rose brings up a biblical example of a saint doubting his Lord.
So I pointed out that Thomas is not praised, in the text, for doubting his Lord, and you have offered another argument that doubt is not to be praised.
Huh? You've got me confused with Curiosity Killed...
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
We're saying IngoB is so evil because he's so certain. The implication of that would be, I suppose, that he would be a better person if he doubted. Thus, Lyda*Rose brings up a biblical example of a saint doubting his Lord.
So I pointed out that Thomas is not praised, in the text, for doubting his Lord, and you have offered another argument that doubt is not to be praised.
Huh? You've got me confused with Curiosity Killed...
Desolee, I should have checked.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You are clearly just slinging whatever mud you can in the hope that some of it sticks.
Once again you show your ineptness at knowing what's going on.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I dunno, I did pretty well imagining what your next reply would be.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Too much Aquinas on the brain there...
Not just there -- everywhere! Problem number one.
Problem number two: you think analogies prove your points, when in fact they only illustrate your points.
Folks, that is the sum total of what's actually wrong with IngoB's presence on these boards. Would that more shipmates presented such a small number of limitations. That he consistently and clearly presents an important point of view that is under-represented on these boards has already been noted on this thread, and obviously it is a big contribution to the liveliness of discussion in Purgatory.
IngoB's persona here is as consistent as his arguments, so you know what you're getting if you read his posts. If his personality really irritates you, yet you keep right on reading what he writes and interacting with him, that's your problem, not his. Believe me, I know whereof I speak.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
That still makes IngoB a better person for doubting, which makes doubt a virtue.
Questioning is a virtue. Questioning why one believes something.
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I like IngoB's fabulously imperious style, and I suspect those who find it unpalatable and wish he'd respect their human feelings better are deficient in some way, and know it. And I like it despite (and because of) the fact that he trashes everything I ever post here.
Grow the fuck up, babies. You're incredibly lucky that the guy spends some of his time with this website, as it would be seriously diminished without him.
I do hope you applied moisturizer to IngoB's arse, otherwise that much kissing is bound to chafe.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
That still makes IngoB a better person for doubting, which makes doubt a virtue.
Questioning is a virtue. Questioning why one believes something.
IngoB says he questions. He argues as if the propositions of the Christian faith are objective, which is the only circumstance in which it is possible to question beliefs. In that regard, he is far more able to questions his beliefs than the one who says "I feel this is true in my heart—I don't care what the Scriptures say."
Don't get me wrong here. IngoB is a huge jerk all the time. I just don't see arguing logically and with certainty as the problem. It's the instances when he goes past logic that get to me.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I do hope you applied moisturizer to IngoB's arse, otherwise that much kissing is bound to chafe.
Seriously? You think he gives a shit about what I think about him? You think I think he gives a shit about what I think about him? You think I give a shit about what you think about what he thinks about what I think about him?
No. Is the answer.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Ma Teresa lived with doubt and uncertainty her whole life, and yet she is a saint. ETA: We don't praise her FOR her doubt; that's a strawman even applied to Thomas. We praise her because she kept on serving Jesus IN SPITE OF her doubt. But this worship of solid certainty is misplaced.
This is a good point concerning what can be meant by "solid certainty" though, rather than a point against it. Mother Teresa was solidly certain in her faith in some sense. Otherwise her doubt would of course simply have stopped her from going on as she did. The various "dark nights of the soul" that many saints experience are in their way particularly impressive examples of the rock-solid operational certainty I am talking about. Because people there maintain their faith-determined modus operandi not merely without "good reason for" but rather in spite of "good reason against".
Take as an example this from the pen of St Thérèse of Lisieux:
quote:
"Dear Mother, does it sound as if I were exaggerating my symptoms? Of course, to judge by the sentiments I express in all the little poems I've made up during the last year, you might imagine that my soul was as full of consolations as it could hold; that, for me, the veil which hides the unseen scarcely existed. And all the time it isn't just a veil; it's a great wall, which reaches up to the sky and blocks out the stars! No, when I write poems about the happiness of heaven and the eternal possession of God, it strikes no chord of happiness in my own heart — I'm simply talking about what I'm determined to believe. Sometimes, it's true, a tiny ray of light pierces through the darkness, and then, just for a moment, the ordeal is over; but immediately afterward the memory of it brings me no happiness, it seems to make the darkness thicker than ever."
That's faith stripped to the bone. The highlighted sentence is basically where I locate the "solid certainty" of faith among all this massive doubt.
What is perhaps also important to notice from this text, which again translates across the board, is that this doubt has an experiential quality, not an intellectual one. That St Thérèse of Lisieux became doubtful about the afterlife is not because she was convinced by some contrary sceptical argument. Rather, what had disappeared is the emotional component of faith, the solace derived from it. The religious state St Thérèse of Lisieux describes here for herself is a purely theoretical / conceptual one (she still writes poems about how the afterlife is supposed to be, but doesn't "feel" them) maintained by sheer force of will.
This "dark night" of the saints is rather like the typical caricature of me then, plus pain of loss over becoming like that. I can totally see the Jobian connection there...
God: Have you considered my servant John of the Cross, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?
Satan: But are you not showering Him with your graces, letting the joy of faith wash over him like an ocean? Withdraw this solace from him, and he will curse you to your face.
God: Behold, he is in your power; only spare his life.
Satan: Very well. So then John of the Cross, become like IngoB.... <kazaam>
J of C: WTF?! Aargh, that hurts so bad ... and why is my poetry becoming so long and boring?
(For the humour-impaired, I'm not actually claiming to be the advanced spirituality of a saint, personified. That's where the caricature bit comes in.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Don't get me wrong here. IngoB is a huge jerk all the time. I just don't see arguing logically and with certainty as the problem. It's the instances when he goes past logic that get to me.
Arguing with logic is fine. Having conviction is fine. Style is a big issue. Perhaps the big issue. Also the failure to recognise that two opposite points of view can have an equally strong logical development.
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Seriously? You think he gives a shit about what I think about him? You think I think he gives a shit about what I think about him? You think I give a shit about what you think about what he thinks about what I think about him?
No. Is the answer.
You took an opportunity to poke the participants on this thread without truly engaging anyone or addressing anything. An excercise more masturbatory than participatory.
So not inappropriate that my response had more to do with my own pleasure than analysing your intent.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Actually, that post was great, IngoB. It explains a lot. And I like the humor. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
ETA: crosspost with LilBuddah.
[ 04. December 2013, 19:49: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Up there with your very best IngoB. Who says you're no saint?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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