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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: It's about killing yourself before dementia sets in.
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
A couple of threads recently, coupled with visiting my elderly and very confused mother-in-law in hospital, who has Alzheimer’s and dementia have prompted me to start this thread.
On one thread there was a suggestion that perhaps euthanasia might be introduced as old people are a drain on society. It was tongue-in-cheek and was actually having a go at my Conservative views.
I wouldn’t go that far. But I am seriously considering stashing up some of my codeine tablets over the years (which I take regularly for chronic back pain and sciatica) and when I get to 80 I’ll call it quits on my own terms.
Frankly I have seen the very elderly and I’m sure they are quite happy in themselves to live on forever, for those of us who remember them as they were I’m not so sure. I don’t want my own children to have to wipe my arse and feed me. As far as I’m concerned parents do that for their children, not the other way round.
Dementia turns people into noisy, messy sacs of chemical reactions. Your mum or dad isn’t in there anymore.
So if I am, God willing, still compos mentis at age 80, when my kids are grown up and settled, and of course depending on the health of my wife, I would like to stop being alive at that point, before dementia sets in and I change from being me to being the equivalent of a large baby but without the hope and joy.
I wouldn’t like to see it imposed of course, but it is my choice. I think modern medicine is great, but the downside is that our physical bodies can outlive our brains by many years. We, as a species, are simply not designed to live as long as we do. Our brains breakdown and our character and personality changes and eventually leaves us. Thus we become mere containers for processing food and oxygen.
I’m sorry if this post is upsetting. It is for me. Being honest, when we found my mother-in-law on the floor on Christmas morning part of me wanted her to be dead, so my wife and kids and I could remember her as she was, because she isn’t in there anymore.
It scares me, and I want no part of it.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
You have my full sympathy regarding sciatica. Something I suffer from now and then. Excruciating.
I have encountered dementia quite a lot recently but I am very wary of euthanasia or suicide. There may be a lot going on inside a person's head about which we know little.
I can think of home communicants where someone with dementia suddenly joins in with familiar words from the 1662 Prayer Book.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
So if I am, God willing, still compos mentis at age 80, when my kids are grown up and settled, and of course depending on the health of my wife, I would like to stop being alive at that point, before dementia sets in and I change from being me to being the equivalent of a large baby but without the hope and joy.
Yes, but.
My dad is now 82. I wouldn't want to have to explain to my teenage children that their granddad has just killed himself. I wouldn't want that to be normal.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
A major problem with this and other debates that's often overlooked is that sick people make decisions differently from well people.
We may each be sitting at our computer in good, or relatively good, health, thinking, "I could never live with X, I'd rather kill myself first" - where X is dementia, cancer, MND or whatever. But the simple fact is - from years of working in healthcare - people who actually find themselves with X don't think that. They (mostly) hold to life with a determination that can be truly awe-inspiring.
But they're the ones who aren't really in a position to be stopped by pollsters wanting to know what people think about euthanasia, asisted suicide, or whatever.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
All perfectly valid points and I understand them.
But what is the alternative? To be pitied and hated? To me, my wife is the most loving and caring woman I know, but the years of looking after her mother is beginning to take their toll and at some point she is going to hate her mum because it isn't her mum there anymore.
It's a lump of biochemical processes that she loves and takes care of. She's running on the memories of what she was.
I know there's no easy answer. Do you tell the grandkids why grandad has killed himself or do you let them slowly begin only remember the times when you were incontinent?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Do you tell the grandkids why grandad has killed himself or do you let them slowly begin only remember the times when you were incontinent?
I'd hope they'd remember the times when I loved my dad so much they saw me clean him up and strip the bed.
I'm not in your position, yet or ever. Both my parents appear more than compos, but some of their generation have dementia, or have died of it. It's not an easy disease to deal with.
Killing yourself while you still can seems, I don't know, a denial of love.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Wanting someone to die, and even yearning and praying for it, is completely on another page than active euthanasia.
I slept on the floor beside the bed of my mother-in-law for 7 months in a sleeping bag, and looked after her at night (my wife did the day shift). This was excruciatingly hard, emotionally draining and difficult. She died when she died. If we had all gotten together and encouraged her to let us end her life, she would have gone along I'm sure, she was really in no capacity to say no. But we didn't and wouldn't. The acts, all of them, from contemplating ending her life actively, and doing it, would have changed us, and changed our relationship with her.
I also had a friend who died of cancer actually 26 years ago today. We talked about ending his life as well, but again, we didn't, wouldn't, couldn't.
In theory, it seems okay, in actual doing, I think it changes the doers more than they realize. And it says something about life and about us in ways difficult to articulate.
I have extreme empathy for those with predictable deaths coming up; a neighbour informed us this week about his cancer. People disclose awful things like this all the time shipboard. But actively ending life. Can't see it. I look forward to continued discussion on this thread, and maybe I will be enlightened in ways I don't anticipate, but I have been long term (since the 26 years ago death) against active death. Dementia or any other reason.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
As someone who works with elderly people who suffer from dementia, I strongly disagree with some of the assumptions being made in the OP.
The idea that people with dementia are just functioning bodies without anything going on in the mind, does not accord with what I have observed in my dealings with my patients. It is actually quite astonishing how much joy and positive attitude can exist in a person whose mind is prone to confusion and memory difficulties. With the right skills, support and sensitivity it is possible to normalise the lives of people with dementia - although, of course, there will always be extreme cases. That is why it is so dangerous to generalise, as the OP has done.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
... it isn't her mum there anymore.
It's a lump of biochemical processes that she loves and takes care of...
Except, I'm afraid, it is.
I've been there. My mum had one of the less publicised forms of dementia, and for the last year of her life I was her main carer, along with a magnificent friend of hers who did far more than anyone could ever have expected a friend to do.
There were many days when I so wanted to believe what we're often told - that it wasn't "her" any more. But it was. It was her, all jumbled up, and shut away inside that head, and weak and sometimes baby-like. But it was still her. It was like she'd been a big jigsaw puzzle, all finished and laid out, that someone had come along and knocked onto the floor. Random bits of person, but bits that sometimes reminded you of the whole picture.
It feels right to say "it's not her" because what we think of as a person is really a continuity - a thing that's more or less the same today as it was yesterday, and that changes only slowly. Dementia shatters that, and robs us of the continuity. And there's no real way of knowing what's going on in there, whether it's pain or contentment.
I made a habit of asking my mum, every time I saw her, the very simple question "Are you happy?" And sometimes I just got a furrowed brow by way of reply, but mostly it was a chirpy "Yes, pet." I'll never know whether she really was or not, but at the time that's what kept me sane.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
Adeodatus has nailed something deeply troubling about the OP.
"It's not her" is really code for "she's not how I want her to be"; these are different things.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Dementia turns people into noisy, messy sacs of chemical reactions. Your mum or dad isn’t in there anymore.
I have some sympathy for this view. It's very hard to see the person in there when dementia is well advanced. But there are vague glimmers. My Mum has had severe dementia for six years now. She's 93, doubly incontinent, can't walk or eat and her hands are balled into fists. She has NO life.
I dearly wish she could slip away in her sleep tonight. Then she will be at peace, instead of a cared-for-shell. But she is still my dear, very much loved Mum and I will be devastated when she does die.
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Adeodatus has nailed something deeply troubling about the OP.
"It's not her" is really code for "she's not how I want her to be"; these are different things.
I don't think the OP meant this.
My Mum isn't how she would want to be. Thankfully she knows very little of what's going on, her memory doesn't exist for what happened two minutes ago.
Those who know they have dementia and are at the beginning of the slow decline are in the worst place by far.
Personally I intend to find and save a 'peaceful pill', gather my family for a huge farewell party, then slip away with dignity. All this long before the marbles have left me. I have told them and they all concur.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
I totally get this, and feel pretty much the same way. BUT.
I wouldn't want to set some arbitrary age at which this happens (to me or anyone else). I know people who, with dementia, are really "not there" at a much younger age. I also know at least two women very closely who are 95 and still going strong (both physically and mentally). People age differently. People also feel differently about life at different ages. I know for example that my choice today (were I to know that dementia was inevitable) would be different than in the same situation once my kids are grown.. but I don't know how I will feel THEN. I know how I think I will fee, how I feel now about the prospect etc. but I also know that my thought when I was 29 about how I'd feel at 49 are no where near the reality of how I feel about myself and about life in general now that I have reached that age.
Still, all that being said, I do think that regardless of age, if I KNEW that my mind was going, I would not want to continue on. I believe that if someone told me right now that dementia was starting, and I'd be a complete vegetable in two years, I'd want to go before I was no longer able to understand what was happening. (but, if I really did find that out a minute from now.. would I believe it? would I feel the same way? who knows.)
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
My father died of Altzheimer's and it was hell to watch the brilliant, witty person he was slip away. But even at the very end there were glimmers of him showing through. When he couldn't talk he could remember songs from his young manhood and tried to sing along. I'm glad he died when he did, but I couldn't have wanted to end his life. And though I thought I'd feel nothing but relief when he died, when he actually did what I felt was relief coupled with profound grief.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Dementia turns people into noisy, messy sacs of chemical reactions. Your mum or dad isn’t in there anymore.
My Mother can't speak or hear. She screams and struggles when she is being changed (several times a day). She tries to kick and hit out, once she managed to bite a carer.
When she was first in a care home, about two years ago, she refused to eat anything and was, I think, trying to starve herself to death. Mostly she just moaned "I want to die". Occasionally she would become coherent enough to tell her husband (my stepfather), how much she hated and despised him, or tell me that she wished I'd never been born and that I'd always been a disappointment to her.
My stepfather has the room in the home next to hers. He hears her screams and shouts. Is terrified she will get to a stage where the home can't keep her, sobs his heart out on the manager's shoulder but mostly hangs onto his stiff upper lip with my wife and I. He sits with her every day, and is being destroyed.
I hope she dies soon enough to give him a little time with more peace. And if I was brave enough I'd kill her myself for all our sakes.
[code]
[ 10. January 2014, 21:43: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Deano, let me say I'm sorry you and your wife are going through this horrible experience. It's not just dementia but the frailty of old age that make this a terrible experience.. My mother died last year at 94, still mentally alert, blind and hating her life, especially the times when she was hospitalized or required a caregiver. It's awful to watch.
I'm uncomfortable with the reasoning that old people should die because younger people find them unattractive burdens if they are demented and content. That is different moral issue then allowing people who want to die to do so comfortably and efficiently. I would like to have that option myself.
It would be good to provide help for those who are taking care of old people who can't take care of themselves, so the burden doesn't fall so heavily on their children as full time caregivers.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
I've only met one elderly friend who had dementia, living very near to me. Her husband looked after her, and she did not seem to be horrible.
Today, on the Radio, it said that drinking "green tea" would help people not to have awful dementia, and maybe none.
And a while ago, it was said that those who did Sudoku would not get into bad dementia.
Does this all and other things help people to feel happy? As well as their thinking works well?
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
Giles Fraser, that awkward priest, has an interesting take on this subject.
For instance, he says:
quote:
I do want to be a burden on my loved ones just as I want them to be a burden on me – it's called looking after each other.
This basic idea makes me recall Matthew 25, and the "parable of the sheep and goats". It would seem we are to be judged on how we care for the hungry, thirsty and those in prison. Perhaps dementia can been seen as a prison.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
In wartime people are given cyanide pills to be used in case of emergency , to escape torture and so on .
Many wasting conditions , esp those associated with old age, don't seem much different from torture to me, apart from the fact that the living hell goes on much longer .
Yes of course it's a problem in having to to say granny or grandpa committed suicide . There is a stigma attached to suicide which stems from the olden days. I don't believe this is relevant today when considering the life prolonging technologies that are available and , more disturbingly , people being kept alive against their will .
There used to be a saying that went 'Pneumonia is the old man's friend'. Our ancestors knew full well the trauma of lingering on painfully for no good reason .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I remember a conversation with a hospital sister about a parishoner who was suffering from dementia and depression - her son had died comparatively recently and it's fair to say she never recovered from the shock.
The nurse said: "She keeps saying she wants to die because she doesn't want to be a burden on her family any more, but actually her family are still grieving for [the son] and don't want to grieve for her as well".
The last few years of her life were pretty bloody awful, actually, and I'm not sure to what extent those of us who tried to support her were able to help.
Later that year it became apparent that my Grandmother was no longer able to cope with living by herself. We went to see her for her 90th birthday, in the knowledge that if she missed that one she might not be around for her 91st and, a few months later I ended up conducting her funeral.
Dementia sucks like a Dyson and there are no good things to be said about it. But neither in my parishoners case nor my Grandmother's case did I feel that matters would be improved if, say, I held a pillow over their faces until they stopped breathing. I desperately wanted my parishoner and my grandmother back to the time when they were sharp as tacks and funny and happy but killing them would have been about addressing my sense of loss and my unwillingness to care for them. Not about meeting their needs.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
As others have given their experiences, let me add mine.
My mother had Alzheimer's and dementia. My brothers and I were able to look after her for a time in her home. Then (with her agreement) we moved her to a managed care facility. She loved that because it was near her youngest grandchildren. As she continued to decline (and that is the thing with Alzheimer's--it can always get worse; don't kid yourself otherwise), anyway, as she continued to decline we were able to get her to a higher level of care facility. By that point Mom still knew us, but was otherwise pretty well out of it (at the managed care place we could find her in most any room because she could never remember which one was her room).
At the higher level of care place, she declined further, to the point where she no longer spoke coherently; clearly had no idea who anybody was; and needed help feeding. Eventually, she went into a coma state and was taken to the hospital. Now, she had an advanced health care directive which stated that no permanent feeding tube was to be used. However, while there was still a chance of reviving her, a temporary tube could be used. So at the hospital she had the temporary tube for food and hydration.
And finally it was decided that she had slipped so far that she could not be revived. And this is when it came down to me. You see, of all my brothers I was the one charged with the authority under the healthcare directive to make decisions for her. I had to agree to the decision to send her to hospice care...and I had to be the one to tell the doctor to remove the feeding tube. Knowing perfectly well that, because of that, she would die from lack of nutrition (hydration would be maintained, of course). In short, I had to be the one to decide to let my mother die. The fact that the directive controlled my actions didn't change the sick feeling in my stomach--I was condemning her to death.
Here is the thing: As they were transporting her from the hospital to the hospice, she died of cardiac arrest en route. Two points to take from this. Mom had always said that she did not want to die in a hospital. She didn't. She got her wish. And, by dying when she did, still filled with the nutrition from the temporary feeding tube, my decision to stop it did not hasten her death. Even at the end, when all her consciousness was gone, my mom was still looking out for me and taking care of me. She found a way to ease my feelings of guilt.
I still struggle with the knowledge that I had to make the decision that I did, and knowing that it was the right decision to make does not make it any easier. But I am still amazed that, even at the stage she was, Mom managed to make things easier on her baby boy.
Deciding to end the life of a loving and loved parent is just not that easy to make.
Now, I know the OP was about taking one's own life to avoid this end. But I agree with the other posters who suggest that picking an arbitrary age makes no sense: My father lived to his late 80s; his brother into his 90s; his father into his 90s. All three had full possession of their mental faculties. I wouldn't trade those final years with my father for anything.
But if you wait until you have symptoms, you have to decide when is enough. Heck, if I took my own life when I got a little absentminded, I would never have made it out of my teens. It is sort of a Catch-22: when the dementia is bad enough to justify taking your own life, it will probably be too bad for you to make that decision. But taking your own life before then would be a waste.
I apologize. After all this, I don't think I have actually advanced the discussion any. But I feel better having written it. Not as many tears as I expected. Maybe I am finally coming to terms with telling the doctor to let my mother die. Ever mention how much I love the Ship?
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
On Christmas Day, my 92-year-old grandmother, in a fit of despair, expressed her desire to die more clearly than I've ever heard from her before. She'd just spent the last 2 months in hospital, had got out a few days before to come down for Christmas with my parents, was watching her daughter be incredibly stressed at playing 'nurse' and was stressed herself as they were arguing.
Two weeks later, she's finally back in her own home, living alone like she has for the last couple of decades at least but with a fantastically helpful neighbour and various other bits of support and assistance, happily getting on with life.
Life has its ups and downs. I don't see why, after you get to an arbitrary age, anyone should be pushed into thinking during a 'down' that there won't be any more 'ups'.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
I don't think there can be an arbitrary age as there are so many hearty older people still enjoying life. I am, though, watching quite a few of my mum's neighbours begin to have problems now that they're in their 70s.
I'm currently watching my mum, aged 74 and having had a stroke at 70, grind her way through life with little to no pleasure, no longer even willing to smile except rarely. To hear her laugh is almost diary-worthy.
I do everything I can to try to help and give her some enjoyment in life, but she just can't 'cheer up' (despite anti-depressants). She can't accept the disabilities the stroke has left her with and her curtailed existence. She hasn't, and I now have to accept never will, come to terms with it.
My sister and I have decided that we would 'top ourselves' if we were put into our mum's position - dependent on us and carers for almost everything, housebound without assistance - but despite telling me regularly how miserable she feels my mum doesn't express any desire to die and the topic doesn't come up.
Like the OP, I don't want to be cared for in my old age. I don't even want to reach 'old age' if it means infirmity - or rather significantly dependent or painful infirmity. Likewise I don't want to carry on living if I have dementia. I watched my dad disappear with this and be replaced by someone who was tormented - there's no other way to put it - in his last few months.
Mere existence on this level is in my opinion simply not worth it, but I can't know whether I would feel the same if I were in either of these situations myself. People just keep on going on, like my mum does, but I hope I would be able to override the survival instinct and end it.
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
Going by my experience of teaching the mentally ill, emotionally disturbed, autistic and the intellectually challenged as well as my fathers death several years ago, and my mother rapidly getting very much "elderly" and in need of care, I don't think that families in our society are prepared to handle caring daily for our parents as they age into disability.
I think that we value nuclear families and not extended families. And I don't think that's neccesarily bad. It's just who we are. I think that if it was expected that we live with our children and grandchildren, it would be much easier, and less of a burden to care for the infirm of the family. I know my mother has made it VERY clear, that she does NOT want to live with us, as has been suggested. (Boy, did she ever). She values, as we do in our culture, independence.
The last thing I want is to ever burden my children with my daily care if and when I get to that point. Again, if their way of life was living with extended family and sharing the burdens of that, I might be ok with it. Invariably, the elderly who don't have nursing home care, live with one family, with the care generally falling on one set of shoulders. That's too hard. You can liken it to raising small children with some very important emotional distinctions. One is that children are expected to grow up. Caring for the elderly is like going backwards. The other is that most people grow up with parents who are their caregiver, and to have those roles reversed is extremely difficult to handle.
I agree with the poster that said that the elderly with dementia can have joy in their lives. It's similar to the handicapped. Of course, the severely impaired can experience joy. Therefore, I'm not in favor of euthanasia (not to be confused with the stipulations in a living will) I actually think this joy might be better achieved with the elderly with GOOD nursing home care then leaving it all to the children, or, child, because of the values that our culture holds and how we are structured. I think our society should work on having excellent nursing home care, of which we do not yet have for all.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Thing of it is dementia can creep up very quietly and over a long period of time. We finally realized my dad had dementia when one day he did not remember were her parked the car. Oh, there were times when he forgot what he was looking for and forgot names or could not remember things in the short term. He continued to remember things in the distance though. He never forgot who I was or any of his other kids, though he may not have recognized some of his great grandchildren.
On the other hand, my brother developed dementia relatively early in his life. The doctor said it was primarily caused by not having the right connections between the two hemispheres of his brain. He still lives alone. He can drive to my mother's house and back. He forgets to eat, but we now have meals on wheels coming to him. Eventually we will have to place him in assisted living, but Mom will not have it while she is his guardian.
But there are moments when his recall is as clear as a bell. A few months ago, when I was home, I had an old childhood friend stop by. It seemed to have triggered a flood of memories for my brother. He was engaged and really enjoyed the visit.
Yes, I think people should have Livings Wills set up that specify what one wants done when incapacitated; but I do not think active suicide could be my choice. I would not want my grandchildren to think it is okay to kill themselves just because life has gotten rough for them. When a family member does commit suicide it seems to give other family members permission to do so too.
No, at what point would you know your dementia has gotten to be too much? Just because you forget a few names? Just because you can't remember what you were doing, or where you placed your glasses?
Or is it when you can't remember where you parked your car?
As has been pointed out, people with some types of dementia can still function and enjoy their life in spite of their limitations.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
First to all the families represented by the preceeding posts my sympathies .
My mother died 5 years ago she had had a heart attack and had dementia . It crept up slowly and then I had to deal with it. I don't think I put 1+ 1 together until I was talking with an MD about coding, he said he wouldn't do it. Then I remembered my mother had laid out a living will to give the doctors direction so I went home to pick that up, crying all the way. I think I had realized that this was not going to be the outcome I wanted . The living will said no extradordinary measures to be done to extend life . I agree wholly with that . In fact I have a document saying the same thing. But it still hurt to watch mum slip away. Though I am sure she knew I was in the room. Every evening before I left I said the commendation from the funeral service , putting her in Gods hands.
Would I consider suicide ot euthenasia ? No
I believe that only God can recall me . And I am fine with that imspite of what I have seen of people with dementia etc .
Blessings all ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
In wartime people are given cyanide pills to be used in case of emergency , to escape torture and so on .
Many wasting conditions , esp those associated with old age, don't seem much different from torture to me, apart from the fact that the living hell goes on much longer .
This.
I speak as someone who will die of a predictable tormented end, if something nice and natural, such as a cardiac arrest, does not come along first and rescue me. If I feel the signs of a impending natural death, I do not intend to call 911 for emergency help.
Should I linger in my illness, I will continue to have cognitive decline to idiocity, be angry, abusive and mistreat my caregivers. I will slowly starve. I will have continuous physical tortuous pain. I will have increasing mental anguish to the point of insanity. I will burn 5,000 calories a day that cannot be replaced. I will fall and be incontinent. When i fall, my bones will break because they are already brittle.
This year, I am going to get my living will done. I am not sure a doctor will sign a 'no-code' yet, but like I said; I am not making any trips to hospital; I am having no preventative tests (such as a mammogram or colonoscopy). I suppose this could be called passive suicide.
I love my children, friends and grandchildren too much to put them through the agony of several years of caring for me while watching me suffer.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
My clients are largely what could be termed (and are, by some) "throw-away" people. Only a couple work at "real" jobs (and even those two jobs are part-time); they lack the capacity. Many need fairly substantial help to manage daily living. Several are quite difficult to deal with as personalities.
I fairly often listen to my staff complain in supervision how little point they can see either in these individuals' lives, or in the work they themselves do to assist our clients.
Much as I sympathize with the trials of loving and dealing with dementia and similar situations, and much as I can understand and perhaps even agree with having a right to end our own lives, I'd never want to see a policy about this, or even Jack Kavorkian-style access provided.
We're helpless when we arrive into our existences; we're often pretty helpless at the other end of the life process. What we need, I think, is a more accepting attitude toward these typical stages of life.
Humans who can't wipe their own arses, for whom getting to the corner drugstore is a federal project or even impossible, who are nasty to those who love them (or once did) are still human. Nobody else should be allowed to devalue that human life (as a species we've been known to slaughter whole populations we devalue), even when s/he devalues that life him/herself.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
A lot of my friends mutter about a "plan B" after visiting a nursing home. For themselves. Dementia isn't the problem - having a working mind and being locked in one of those mindless places is what we want to avoid.
The problem, of course, is if they take you away to one of those places, they strip you of the tools to carry out your plan B.
Not that long ago old folks died at home, if you can't chew food anymore you gently starve (from what I've read it is gentle).
We are quickly moving toward a demographic of only 2 workers per retiree. If it takes two to care for one elderly, who will grow the food, repair the cars, generate the electricity? For the Boomers' old age there simply will not be the kind of care help that was available for our parents or even for today's elderly. 'Twil be interesting times.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Just a bit of context - very few elderly people come to the attention of the authorities as in need of care and the percentage remained about the same in UK over a century - something around 8%* so whilst it will affect some people it does not, by any means, affect all. Most elderly people die in their own home or during a short stay hospital admission.
Having said that it is still an awful condition whether the dementia is Alzheimer's related or multi-infarct or whatever. My sister in law had an hereditary condition which ended her life prematurely and it was terrible to see the decline in her and she said to me once the same as a retired marine engineer [with Alzheimer's] once said "It's terrible when you know what is happening to you." My heart goes out to Scarlet and all others in a similar situation
I'm another one who has a no resuscitation thing and I think that that is a reasonable thing but I think I draw the line at the deliberate ending of a life, whether my own or someone else's.
* * * *
*College is a Long Time Ago so I cannot give you a reference for this - I'm sure you can look it up.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
It needs to be stated that dementia is not an inevitable consequence of aging. Yes, there are cognitive faculties that decline to some degree with age (short-term memory being the most obvious). But many people remain very sharp well past 80, even past 100, if they are lucky enough to live that long. Dementia is the result of disease processes, not just normal wear and tear.
That said, if I had a diagnosis of Alzheimers or some other inexorably progressive dementing condition, I'd make sure I checked out before it got too bad.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
This is such a difficult topic and I think it can include physical disability as a result of old age as well as dementia. My father died 8 years ago aged 86 and we had to fight to get the doctors to allow his wishes for no treatment as they are of course trained to preserve life. But it was a life my father did not want and as an old soldier he faced the situation head on and had written an advanced directive several years earlier. Other people would have made a different choice.
Here in Kenya, amongst several people groups there is (within living memory)the tradition of the elderly voluntarily committing suicide when they judge themselves to be a burden on the rest of the community. And this is in a place where family is wider than just the nuclear understanding of many of us in other cultures.
The question for me is "What does love look like in this situation?" And I've learnt that sometimes, the answer is only clear on a moment by moment basis which is both a frustration and a comfort to me!
Having cared for my Dad in the two months it took him to die and remembering how exhausting it was (albeit a precious time too),my thoughts and prayers are with all of you who face the challenge of long-term care of a loved one.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I am impressed with this thread and the contributions to understanding based on personal experience. My mum, at 95, is still living independently, still very much mentally capable and alert. She plays piano at the Monday women's meeting at her local church. They love her, because she transposes the hymns into keys more suitable for aging voices than the ones they have been written in. Her piano playing is a self-taught talent, no lessons ever.
But she does suffer from a variety of challenging physical problems which cause her a lot of pain and frustration. In view of that, her morale and positive outlook amaze me. The thing she fears most is loss of independence. She is not that bothered about "loss of my marbles" as she puts it. Has been doing what she calls her "brain gymnastics" (crosswords, logical puzzles, other kinds of memory exercises) since her early seventies to help keep her faculties in good shape. And she has always taken a keen, supportive, interest in the lives of family, friends, and the wider world. Loves her great grandchildren, thinks she's lucky to have lived long enough to get to know them. It's reciprocal; they think she's a lot of fun. They look forward to rides on her stair-lift! All of these things seem to work together for her.
There aren't general solutions here. Personally, I'm with those who would not want to go down the voluntary end, while still aware, road. But I much appreciate the dilemma as well as the burdens on relatives of those disabled by slow mental deterioration. Many friends and other family members have had most difficult experiences here. A lovely man at my local church is in the early stages of this, as is an ex-neighbour who I like very much. They both talk to me and others about what it feels like, as do their wives. Social support seems vital to me with these kinds of difficulties - people do better when they are not on their own, and are receiving practical and emotional help.
In which direction does compassion point? I suspect that varies a lot.
[ 11. January 2014, 07:11: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
Firstly, Dementia is not an inevitable part of ageing. Reaching 80 does not indicate you or I have dementia.
Secondly, the prospects are good. Read this for an encouraging article for you younger Shippies.
Thirdly. A long time ago I was in a very bad situation and deeply depressed. I decided I did not want to live beyond 65, and I had stashed away enough high-powered anagesics to make sure I could depart.
You know what? I got to 65 and while life was no rosier, in fact it was probably worse, I was determined to soldier on. I felt quite young, really.
Today, I am approaching my 80th birthday. I wonder if the forgetfulness, inability to find the right word, and those senior moments I get are the onset of Dementia. They could be. Who knows? But I still have the tablets.
Even so, I don't think I could put onto my daughter and the rest of the family the knowledge of my suicide. Bereavement in the ordinary way is hard to bear, but knowing it was a deliberate death makes it harder.
Nor could I ask anyone to kill me. Which is what the alternative is. Many of you are struggling with situations that I wonder if I could have done as well as you are, and for this I have a huge amount of admiration.
But could any of you knowingly kill a parent or other relative? Could you ask someone else to do it? Honestly?
Living wills may be the answer. I don't know. All I can say is there is no set age limit to our lives. I am very nearly 80 and feel quite hale and hearty, even if I am disabled. Don't write me off yet!
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
There is indeed *Always another day*, which does tend to make ideas about topping ourselves in old age somewhat nonsensical .
Unless we end up in a pit from which we absolutely, know for sure there is no escape then we are unlikely to down our hidden stash and say a fond farewell to to only life experience we know and , in all probability , are ever going to know.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
If you have reached 80 and are not showing any signs of dementia, you are unlikely to get it. In my experience as a lawyer advising on elderly care issues, most people who suffer from dementia are showing signs of it in their mid to late seventies. It is not inevitable that the elderly will suffer from dementia - most people don't. Nor is it a foregone conclusion that you will end your life in a care home - most elderly people die at home or in hospital after a short illness.
The arguments for and against euthanasia have been well rehearsed in many forums. A common argument in favour of euthanasia is "you wouldn't let you dog suffer like that". To which I reply that you are not going to inherit money and property from your dog, which would be much reduced in value if you allowed the dog to go on living with expensive veterinary care. You would not believe how many people I come across with elderly parents whose primary concern is not mum or dad's welfare but preserving their inheritance.
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
In his 80s, when my grandfather got indigestion-type chest pain, he did press-ups on the theory that if it was indigestion, press-ups would do no harm and if it was a heart-attack he was going to make damn sure it was a fatal one.
He drove himself to the hospital appointment at which he was told that 74 years of smoking had finally caught up with him and he had lung cancer. He shouldn't have been driving at that point, but he wasn't going to make any concessions to ill health (or indeed, the safety of other road users, or the peace of mind of his family!)
Having been told he had cancer he told the family to give him 24 hours alone. As we were sure he intended to kill himself, we didn't.
He went into hospital for radiotherapy. He had been in for a week when I visited and thought that he was dying. The hospital doctor said that he wasn't dying, but I phoned round the family anyway. My father came, but my aunt checked up with the hospital who told her that I was wrong, he wasn't dying, so she didn't come. He died later that day.
Afterwards, I wondered how the doctor could fail to realise that he was dying, and I concluded that my grandfather had always had a quality - an intensely "alive" quality, and what I had seen that day was that he had, in some way, switched off. The flame of his life was spluttering out; not something that registered in heart rate or blood pressure or clinical observation, but obvious to those who knew, loved, adored and were continually exasperated by him.
I hope I can similarly reach a point, preferably a bit older than 87, when I can think "it's been good, but I've had enough" and switch off.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Today, I am approaching my 80th birthday. I wonder if the forgetfulness, inability to find the right word, and those senior moments I get are the onset of Dementia.
Nicodemia, I am about nine months older than you.
I heard a talk at our local Senior Center about how to keep your mind in good shape. The speaker said that senior moments have nothing to do with dementia. Most elderly people have them, and they do not progress to something worse.
They are a nuisance, though. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
quote:
Most elderly people have them, and they do not progress to something worse.
They are a nuisance, though. [Frown]
Moo, I find the worst thing is when I am talking to someone about perfectly ordinary things, and the name of something equally ordinary just won't come. I feel an utter fool! ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
This thread has been one of the most honest I have read in a lot of years onboard. The personal reflections are very moving.
I, at 81, find myself in a unique position relatibe to the others. I and my wife also 81 are residents in a CCRC or Continuing Care Retirement Community. This is a facility that you can enter while you are still mobile and able to (mostly) take care of yourself. As you deteriorate you can be move to an in-house medical facility which does offer hospice care if requested.
The difference in my situation where I am still mobile and mostly in my right mind, is that I and other residents are desirous of providing the social support that we have established with other residents while living here. We find the management and medical staff opposing this and get the impression that there is a fear that there would be liability and HIPPA consequences to allow resident friends to visit those in the medical facility. Thus we wonder where is Mrs so & so? She isn't answering her phone? When asking the management we are told they can't disclose that information.
I also think part of this is the medical profession's fear of death; that is is a failure of their job.
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I heard a talk at our local Senior Center about how to keep your mind in good shape. The speaker said that senior moments have nothing to do with dementia. Most elderly people have them, and they do not progress to something worse.
They are a nuisance, though.
I have always had them, since being a small child.
My brain is different, I am very good at thinking on my feet but have an extremely poor memory.
If I get dementia I'll certainly not recognise the early stages - as I've lived with poor working/short and long term memory all my life. I have many coping strategies - many of which are also useful for dementia sufferers.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I've been there. My mum had one of the less publicised forms of dementia, and for the last year of her life I was her main carer, along with a magnificent friend of hers who did far more than anyone could ever have expected a friend to do.
There were many days when I so wanted to believe what we're often told - that it wasn't "her" any more. But it was. It was her, all jumbled up, and shut away inside that head, and weak and sometimes baby-like. But it was still her. It was like she'd been a big jigsaw puzzle, all finished and laid out, that someone had come along and knocked onto the floor. Random bits of person, but bits that sometimes reminded you of the whole picture.
I do not have dementia. I have a dissociative disorder. I too am like a broken jigsaw puzzle. I often do not know who I am, but can be 'reminded' by other people. This is situational, and not in my control. The more stressed I am, the less I know who I am. I need calm, quiet and familiar places and people to help me to stay grounded.
I have a friend with dementia, in a care home. She does not remember me at all any more. I also have an aunt, who is being cared for in her own home by my cousin. He has lived with her for more than two years, providing all the care she needs, to keep her at home.
I would like to think I would do the same for my parents, if it were needed. I am not as strong as my cousin, but I would certainly try. But I would not want my d to do this for me; I would want her to live her own life, and look after her own family.
[code]
[ 11. January 2014, 16:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
I would like to think I would do the same for my parents, if it were needed. I am not as strong as my cousin, but I would certainly try. But I would not want my d to do this for me; I would want her to live her own life, and look after her own family.
We did.
We looked after Mum in her own home, taking it in turns as a family. But, eventually, the care becomes so complex that family can no longer do it.
We were willing, but we were not able in the end.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
quote:
Most elderly people have them, and they do not progress to something worse.
They are a nuisance, though. [Frown]
Moo, I find the worst thing is when I am talking to someone about perfectly ordinary things, and the name of something equally ordinary just won't come. I feel an utter fool!
Sounds like me all my life.
I remember being in my 30s and hearing Mom fret that losing (misplacing) her car keys meant she was going senile. "Hey Mom," said I, "I lose mine all the time, that's why I have two pair and a hook right by the door, in spite of which I sometimes lose them both!" Behavior normal at 30 is viewed as a warning at 60 or 70 or 80 when in fact it's just normal human.
My big fear is that quirks of my personality all my life will be used against me to throw me in one of those places - there are people whose career is getting themselves appointed guardian - at the guarded ones expense. I have no family to speak up for me, and in some states it can (or at least recently could) be done by a court without the elderly one being present. imposed abusive guardianship by a stranger and How people become victims of unnecessary Guardianship
But more to the point in the immediate - I have read that "senior moments" are very often just dehydration. Not sayin' always - but if you have one, get a glass of water. Can't hurt! Lots of us drink less as we age, not sure why.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
I remember my gran reading an article in a SAGA magazine which delighted her - it said that older people don't forget things more than young people; it's just that younger people are better at covering up the mistakes!
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
This thread has been one of the most honest I have read in a lot of years onboard. The personal reflections are very moving.
I have been trying to think how to express this, but you have said it just right, so I hope you don't mind if I say that I agree so much with your post.
Nicodemia and Moo
I'll be 78 next month and it's amazing, isn't it, how, when you arrive at an age you thought was ancient not so long ago, it still seems like another step long a road that is going to be longer than just weeks or years.
There has not been dementia in my immediate family, but I know that whatever happens, I'll stay alive for as long as I can, whatever comes along to end it.
[code]
[ 11. January 2014, 21:47: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
And one of the things they say about dementia is that people get just always being and acting like children - wow! They don't remember things they had while they were olde.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
But could any of you knowingly kill a parent or other relative? Could you ask someone else to do it? Honestly?
Thank God I've never had to do this, but one relative has told me many times that if X or Y, she will want someone to help her kill herself. I wouldn't do it if she couldn't be an active part, but if X or Y happened and she reminded me of that desire, as long as she was clearly compos mentis? Yeah, I'd help her. I'd want her to be an active part though to be sure she really wanted it.
It makes a difference to me though that she's been saying this for years. And she's healthy now and odds are will be for many more years. If she has been saying something for some 50 years, and still says it when push comes to shove, it'll be easy to believe that she really believes that dying is the best thing for her. Not a spur of the moment depressed feeling that might pass. Still, pray God she never asks me.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Grandma was mad at the death angel for delaying. Sitting in assisted living, in pain, mostly in a wheel chair (unable to get outdoors unless a visitor pushed her, but family lived far away so visitors were rare), watching "Days of our lives" and other soaps day after day, seemed pointless to her. Her eyes didn't work well enough to do her embroidery anymore. Her close friends were long dead.
Mom said the only time in her life she spoke a swear word was when she said "old age is hell."
When they said she needed an operation, she was pleased, certain she would die on the operating table, wrote goodbye notes to a few friends. When she woke up from the operation, she was frustrated at the failure of her hopes. She kept pulling the tube out of her nose to stop the feeding so she could die. They kept putting it back in.
Strong mind, strong will, betrayed by a body that hung on way past it's "best used by" date.
It took a family conference, and some family pressure on the one family member who insisted on "taking care of her" (when visiting for a few days, she wasn't offering to take on the permanent 24 hour care job).
Basically, she was allowed to commit suicide, what she'd been trying to do for weeks but repeatedly thwarted by her caretakers.
There ought to be a way when the body has become a painful prison and days empty. A way to choose. Not impulsively, not pressured by others, but a way to choose to move on.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I remember being in my 30s and hearing Mom fret that losing (misplacing) her car keys meant she was going senile. "Hey Mom," said I, "I lose mine all the time,
Doctor Johnson: ‘There is a wicked inclination in most people to suppose an old man decayed in his intellects. If a young or middle-aged man, when leaving a company, does not recollect where he laid his hat, it is nothing; but if the same inattention is discovered in an old man, people will shrug up their shoulders, and say, “His memory is going.”’
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I remember being in my 30s and hearing Mom fret that losing (misplacing) her car keys meant she was going senile. "Hey Mom," said I, "I lose mine all the time,
Doctor Johnson: ‘There is a wicked inclination in most people to suppose an old man decayed in his intellects. If a young or middle-aged man, when leaving a company, does not recollect where he laid his hat, it is nothing; but if the same inattention is discovered in an old man, people will shrug up their shoulders, and say, “His memory is going.”’
Indeed! I've had "senior moments" since childhood. Making fun of my forgetfulnes was a regular thing among some of my less kind schoolmates.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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