|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: The church as 'private club'
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
This story has hit the local press, and I believe a couple of national dailies too. I don't want to discuss the specifics of this situation, because I know the parish slightly, though not well enough for an informed debate.
What interests, and disturbs me, is the strong implication that the priest was bullied out of his job by a powerful clique who saw the church as their own private social club. (There is more about this in the official report here.) It is very reminiscent of a situation I was in about thirty years ago, where the church was controlled by an unrepresentative group who enjoyed their cliquey 'socials' but tried to freeze out any who didn't conform to their expectations. I confronted them and eventually won; I wasn't, fortunately, forced out but it was very tough.
I'm fairly sure that this sort of behaviour is not uncommon. That it rarely escalates to this extent is probably due to clergy preferring a quiet life and avoiding confrontation. And I think it stems from a very narrow vision of what the Church is on the part of many Anglicans. Unlike Roman Catholics for whom the local parish is just one among many manifestations of the universal Church, Anglicans tend to think, and act, at least in practice, as if 'the Church' as a wider entity was irrelevant. Hence the reluctance to pay diocesan shares (or in the case of this parish, to demand special consideration on the basis of paying it), the idiosyncratic nature of the liturgy in many places, and a reluctance to be challenged by insights and traditions from 'outside the box'.
This selfishness, which is what it is, also and more damagingly results in neglecting any sort of spiritual discipline. Such churches in the 'catholic' tradition will pay lip service to the sacraments, to going to confession, observing quiet days etc, but for many or most people lip service is as far as it goes. Certainly according to the report above that was the situation there.
Any comments? Especially about whether I am right in my assertion that it is a problem more endemic to Anglicanism (or at least the C of E) than Catholicism. I can't speak for any other denominations but while I can envisage the temptations to sectarianism I wonder if the 'social club' aspect is as strong and pernicious?
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Any comments? Especially about whether I am right in my assertion that it is a problem more endemic to Anglicanism (or at least the C of E) than Catholicism. I can't speak for any other denominations but while I can envisage the temptations to sectarianism I wonder if the 'social club' aspect is as strong and pernicious?
I think different situations can give rise to something similar to this in different denominations. It's not unusual for big donors to assume that they can and should be able to set direction of the church - and I've seen and/or heard of this happening in Methodist (US), Baptist and independent circles.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Baptist Trainfan may be along shortly; also hatless. Just guessing of course.
There is an old joke which, apparently, came from Billy Graham, a staunch Baptist.
"Resist the devil and he will flee from you
Resist the deacons and they will fly at you".
Angloid, I think it is a problem not confined to any particular denomination. Nor is the reverse problem, of bullying and spiritual abuse by a too-dominant minister-in-charge.
They are pesky difficult to handle. From a surprising source (Joe Heller's marvellous "Catch 22") there is another insight from the hapless and hopeless Arfy, reflecting on his time in his college fraternity. "[Frat] was wonderful. We used to ostracise everyone, even each other".
I think the root cause of both bullying of and bullying by priest/ministers is the same. The seductive attraction of power and control.
And you will find it everywhere; work, golf clubs, Rotary, schools and staff rooms etc, amongst school pupils. The tendency to Lord it over others if you think you have the clout.
Jesus said "not so among you; if you want to be great, learn to be a servant".
That gets forgotten far too easily.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think the root cause of both bullying of and bullying by priest/ministers is the same. The seductive attraction of power and control.
And you will find it everywhere; work, golf clubs, Rotary, schools and staff rooms etc, amongst school pupils. The tendency to Lord it over others if you think you have the clout.
From my experience working in several universities I agree. Famously academic politics are vicious because the stakes are so low. And that does seem a feature of much bullying, it is the only way those with little power can get the small victories they so long for.
--------------------
"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
|
Posted
Interesting. Father Tibbs is cute as a button in his hiking hat so I'd like to side with him, but I think we need to know more.
quote:
Father Tibbs enforced a cutting down of alcohol consumption after church and the replacement of an elderly Sunday school leader, splits appeared amongst the laity as some members began to call for his departure from St Faith’s.
Where was all this alcohol consumption? Was it a sherry party in someone's home or inside the church itself? Was the Sunday School teacher incompetent or merely old?
I had a young priest, with a booming voice, at a church in Washington DC who used to tear us a new one from the pulpit almost every week. He particularly liked to tell his mink wearing, Cadillac driving congregation that they needed to quit being such cheapskates and give more to the poor. I loved him, but his fire was all from the pulpit, he didn't actually try to force individuals to do things his way.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Barnabas62: I'm sure you are right about the root causes of bullying. What I am interested in is the connection between Anglican parochialism (my church is The Church, aka my little club) and the way it strikes out at anyone who challenges that. I'm sure that phenomenon exists in other denominations too. But it's a different thing from bullying in general which happens in all sorts of contexts.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Wow! I just heard the Quo in my mind, singing "Rocking all Over the World"!
Strange prompt. Some folks do see themselves as defenders of the status quo ante. Anyone with any reforming agenda is bound to hit that. It's in Machiavelli's " The Prince". And that really is all over the world. It is very often the agenda of powerful cliques, this resistance of change. They are sure they know better. "Well, we tried that in 1976 ...". Maybe this is the characteristic you are thinking about, reaching for?
Another church joke. New Bishop visits a parish on his introductory rounds. Meets an ancient Churchwarden. "So, how long have you been here?" "Over 40 years, m'Lord". Well, you must have seen many changes in that time? "Yes m'Lord, and I'm proud to say I've resisted every one of them".
Think this nonconformist should bow out at this point.
BTW, it is indeed true that there can be faults on both sides, none of which excuses bullying as a decided and deliberate technique.
[ 24. January 2014, 12:34: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Sadly, nowadays it is not uncommon to find A-C churches (both FiF and AffCath) that put tat and calendars above the Gospel. But you get the equivalent at all stages of the candle - evos who put music and strictness above the Gospel, MOTRs who put pleasing everyone and niceness above the Gospel. It is a problem in all varieties of church.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Interesting. Father Tibbs is cute as a button in his hiking hat so I'd like to side with him, but I think we need to know more.
quote:
Father Tibbs enforced a cutting down of alcohol consumption after church and the replacement of an elderly Sunday school leader, splits appeared amongst the laity as some members began to call for his departure from St Faith’s.
Where was all this alcohol consumption? Was it a sherry party in someone's home or inside the church itself? Was the Sunday School teacher incompetent or merely old?
I had a young priest, with a booming voice, at a church in Washington DC who used to tear us a new one from the pulpit almost every week. He particularly liked to tell his mink wearing, Cadillac driving congregation that they needed to quit being such cheapskates and give more to the poor. I loved him, but his fire was all from the pulpit, he didn't actually try to force individuals to do things his way.
The alcohol was (taking an educated guess) served with the refreshments after church. Not uncommon in this sort of church.
I can't comment on the SS teacher but given how long bad ones seem to stay in their role and how desperate a lot of churches are for them, it would be unheard of to fire one for a reason like their age alone. From my experience of this kind of church, I strongly suspect incompetence. Total guess, but an educated one.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Wow! I just heard the Quo in my mind, singing "Rocking all Over the World"!
Strange prompt. Some folks do see themselves as defenders of the status quo ante. Anyone with any reforming agenda is bound to hit that. It's in Machiavelli's " The Prince". And that really is all over the world. It is very often the agenda of powerful cliques, this resistance of change. They are sure they know better. "Well, we tried that in 1976 ...". Maybe this is the characteristic you are thinking about, reaching for?
Another church joke. New Bishop visits a parish on his introductory rounds. Meets an ancient Churchwarden. "So, how long have you been here?" "Over 40 years, m'Lord". Well, you must have seen many changes in that time? "Yes m'Lord, and I'm proud to say I've resisted every one of them".
Think this nonconformist should bow out at this point.
BTW, it is indeed true that there can be faults on both sides, none of which excuses bullying as a decided and deliberate technique.
I don't know what nonconformist denomination you belong to, but I certainly think the church as private club is a thing that exists in all types of church, including nonconformist ones.
I find that RC churches have it the least, but they can have the opposite problem - that they can become an impersonal 'filling station' for sacramental purposes but not a community.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Interesting. Father Tibbs is cute as a button in his hiking hat so I'd like to side with him, but I think we need to know more.
quote:
Father Tibbs enforced a cutting down of alcohol consumption after church and the replacement of an elderly Sunday school leader, splits appeared amongst the laity as some members began to call for his departure from St Faith’s.
Where was all this alcohol consumption? Was it a sherry party in someone's home or inside the church itself? Was the Sunday School teacher incompetent or merely old?
The report from the Episcopal Visitation (also linked in the OP) suggests that this was a reduction in the number of occasions when alcohol was served after church.
However, that Visitation report still leaves me uneasy. The process was interview-based but the bishop says that he made no notes of those interviews. Therefore, there can be no comeback, no challenge, no check for accuracy or fair reporting. When that is combined with the very hostile tone of the report how can we be sure that the bishop hadn't already made up his mind on the outcome and just heard what he wanted to hear?
[ 24. January 2014, 12:55: Message edited by: Pre-cambrian ]
--------------------
"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
I'm in an independent congo with Baptist/brethren roots, Jade. Already criticised my lot in my first post here! Baptist and Free Church groups are definitely not free from this disease.
Dropping out because Angloid is interested in bullying in a setting of which I have only limited second hand experience.
I think you misunderstood, Jade.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Baptist Trainfan may be along shortly.
Now why did he say that? Anyway, here I am, large as life! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
quote:
New Bishop visits a parish on his introductory rounds. Meets an ancient Churchwarden. "So, how long have you been here?" "Over 40 years, m'Lord". Well, you must have seen many changes in that time? "Yes m'Lord, and I'm proud to say I've resisted every one of them".
Think this nonconformist should bow out at this point.
Oh, I don't know - it could just as easily have been a Baptist deacon. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Seriously, I do agree with others that this kind of thing can happen in all churches and societies, although the "practicalities" of how it's done will vary according to the specific structures of the organisation. The difficulty in our Congregationalist set-up is that a group of malcontents may garner other disaffected or politically unattached people to their point of view, often by presenting with very skewed information; if they don't do that, they can cause enough rumpus to make the Minister resign anyway.
Two Baptist stories. One was a church which was "going charismatic" under the Minister (the presenting issue is unimportant, but it did involve changes to the status quo). Most folk were very happy with this, but one leading member was not. So he visited all the moribund members (sadly they hadn't pruned their membership list for years), got him round to their way of thinking and forced a vote at Church Meeting.
The Minister and all the other Deacons were forced out and started a new Church in the Community Centre next door with most of the active members. The recalcitrant Deacon was left with the building, the debt on it and a rump of elderly members - all the people he had got to vote for him vanishing straight back into the woodwork. A Pyrrhic victory indeed.
In another church, a small but vociferous minority put a "no confidence" vote in the Minister to Church Meeting. It was easily defeated; but the Minister left anyway, saying that he couldn't work in a situation where some folk were clearly against him.
For an Anglican story, there is always this one which got a lot of coverage. Sounds like an upper-class version of the tale in the OP.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I'm in an independent congo with Baptist/brethren roots, Jade. Already criticised my lot in my first post here! Baptist and Free Church groups are definitely not free from this disease.
Dropping out because Angloid is interested in bullying in a setting of which I have only limited second hand experience.
I think you misunderstood, Jade.
Ahh apologies then, didn't want you to feel like this was an Anglican-only private club is all
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
|
Posted
I can see some parallels with the experiences we had in a parish church, during which the vicar was eventually removed after a very public legal dispute. Members of the faction sidelined the vicar, refused to take communion from him and I even heard one person admit to secretly recording the vicar's words at a PCC meeting in case there was anything they might be able to use against him later. The main trigger to all this was the retirement of the previous vicar who had let them run the parish and his replacement by someone who had different ideas. It was very bitter and public and many people left the church, including my own family.
As to whether this happens at other denominations, our previous Baptist church had also had a church split following a new incumbent. But that was handled better, with the minister being supported by the Baptist Union to work through it and with him eventually offering to leave on condition that the church wrote itself a constitution and sorted out what they actually wanted from a minister.
In both these situations, IMO, the ministers were bullied and did not deserve what was done to them. The parish church situation, in particular, was soul destroying and nasty.
--------------------
'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
However, that Visitation report still leaves me uneasy. The process was interview-based but the bishop says that he made no notes of those interviews. Therefore, there can be no comeback, no challenge, no check for accuracy or fair reporting. When that is combined with the very hostile tone of the report how can we be sure that the bishop hadn't already made up his mind on the outcome and just heard what he wanted to hear?
My only real contribution here is to say that in the NHS, any report not backed up by notes made at the meetings - and o.k'd by all the participants before the report was published - wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
For an Anglican story, there is always this one which got a lot of coverage. Sounds like an upper-class version of the tale in the OP.
...starts whistling nonchalantly and hope nobody notices her location ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
My Baptist situation was also similar to that you described, people who I had never seen at church would turn up every month at the church meeting to forward votes of no confidence in the minister. Two years had gone by and they were worshipping at other Baptist churches but still retaining membership at the previous church just so they could do this.
--------------------
'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Seconded, Adeodatus. Speaking as someone who has chaired, been minutes secretary and attended more meetings re controversial situations than I care to remember, and certainly don't enjoy remembering.
Call for a vote?
(Yes I know I bowed out)
[ 24. January 2014, 13:31: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
Hamm ... Traditionally Baptist churches used to have "Communion Cards" which said that you lost your right to vote at Church Meeting if you were absent from Communion for more than six months "without good reason". Applying that might have helped in the first situation I described, but not the one mentioned by Heavenly Anarchist.
This sort of thing is so often linked with a petty desire to manipulate and hold power ... which is very far from a genuine Christly attitude.
[ 24. January 2014, 13:35: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
|
Posted
I think some of these things are in the eye of the beholder.
In one case I know (years ago now), a baptist minister was removed from the pastorate by the members. He believed that it was because he preached against Freemasonry, but I never was able to get any real handle on what the sudden problem was from the Elders.
In another, the relationship between a vicar and PCC broke down, and much of the congregation left, because the bishop refused to get involved (to be fair, though, it was an awkward time as the bishop was promoted etc).
Even having been involved in both of these situation, I'm still not really sure who was to blame in either case. I think they were both problems with a clash of personality and approach.
--------------------
"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
Posts: 812 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Posted by Angloid:
quote:
I'm fairly sure that this sort of behaviour is not uncommon. That it rarely escalates to this extent is probably due to clergy preferring a quiet life and avoiding confrontation.
I fear that this isn't the case at all I would totally agree with you that it is not uncommon and would even go so far as to say it is an increasing feature of church politics, but where I would differ from you is on the 'quiet life' aspect. I know many clergy who live in what can only be described as a spiralling hell because they feel paralysed and unable to cope with it and there are not the sufficient safety nets to deal with it, or people within the diocesan structures that can be approached. Of those I know in this situation there are two compounding factors: diocesan structures which for whatever reason refuse to act even though they know what is going on, and the silence and culture of shame that surrounds the issue in what some see or class as a 'failed priest'. Of those clergy I know in this situation, many (if not most of them) take large terms of sick leave in any given year and often seek out diocesan distractions and other posts to disengage themselves from the parish concerned.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
In the NHS, any report not backed up by notes made at the meetings - and o.k'd by all the participants before the report was published - wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on.
The Baptist Union have, for the past three or four years, had a much more carefully-structured procedure for dealing with complaints against ministers than formerly, by which one person's personal opinions are not enough to initiate action. That helps, although bullies will always try to get round any system.
[ 24. January 2014, 13:39: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
Just a thought: in Congregationalist churches the members take the decisions together and pay the minister directly. And the Minister is not seen as "Father", ontologically different from the laity.
Does this mean that these churches are more likely to bully their Ministers than Anglicans or Catholics?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Just a thought: in Congregationalist churches the members take the decisions together and pay the minister directly. And the Minister is not seen as "Father", ontologically different from the laity.
Does this mean that these churches are more likely to bully their Ministers than Anglicans or Catholics?
I'm not sure they are more likely to, but as employers (not to mention judge and jury), they can. More hierarchical denominations make this much more difficult.
--------------------
"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
Posts: 812 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Just a thought: in Congregationalist churches the members take the decisions together and pay the minister directly. And the Minister is not seen as "Father", ontologically different from the laity.
Does this mean that these churches are more likely to bully their Ministers than Anglicans or Catholics?
Yes it probably does if they feel they have a greater part in their call and their (potential) dismissal. Not all Baptist churches are the same IME Trainfan ... but I've seen enough of the bad ones in my mediation/consultancy work (both freelance and on behalf of denominations) to know that the bad ones are very bad indeed.
It almost happened to me in one church but I've always tried to stand up to bullies and in this case the individual concerned over stretched himself. Instead of his usual behind the scenes, covert stuff he did something in full view and with independent witnesses, that in any other contact would be actionable. I didn't need to actually do anything he destroyed himself.
At heart its all about power and who holds it and how it's used. We all make mistakes and few of them deliberately: forgiveness covers a multitude of sins.
[ 24. January 2014, 14:21: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
In the NHS, any report not backed up by notes made at the meetings - and o.k'd by all the participants before the report was published - wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on.
The Baptist Union have, for the past three or four years, had a much more carefully-structured procedure for dealing with complaints against ministers than formerly, by which one person's personal opinions are not enough to initiate action. That helps, although bullies will always try to get round any system.
Great idea in theory - BUGB don't have the backbone to apply it properly. Depends who it is too - some well known BUGB luminaries have pooped their cassocks when it's known that certain individuals are involved. It just perpetuates abuse - every region has one or more churches known for breaking ministers.
Mind you in one area of the UK I know well, there were major issues in every single church in a fairly big town over a short period. These ranged from adultery, division, irregularity with finance, to promiscuity - gay and hetero. And so it went on.
Two of these made the national press - perhaps the worst of the lot avoided it but goodness only knows how. The individual concerned had perpetrated spiritual and sexual abuse not in 3 congregations but 3 denominations (booted out of 2 and then ordained in the third) and then he was caught .... well the laws of libel being what they are, I can't say a lot more.
[ 24. January 2014, 14:28: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Angloid:
quote:
I'm fairly sure that this sort of behaviour is not uncommon. That it rarely escalates to this extent is probably due to clergy preferring a quiet life and avoiding confrontation.
I fear that this isn't the case at all I would totally agree with you that it is not uncommon and would even go so far as to say it is an increasing feature of church politics, but where I would differ from you is on the 'quiet life' aspect. I know many clergy who live in what can only be described as a spiralling hell because they feel paralysed and unable to cope with it and there are not the sufficient safety nets to deal with it, or people within the diocesan structures that can be approached.
I fear you are right in many cases. But there are also those priests who look at potential minefields and steer well clear of them, thus storing up problems for their successors. Or who encourage the cliques which is even worse. My predecessor (in the parish of 30 years ago) had cultivated his 'supporters' club' which were exactly the same lot who ganged up on me.
Adeodatus: yes, I found the 'investigating bishop's' reluctance to minute the discussions rather puzzling, if not counter-productive. He should have know that his report was bound to be challenged.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
I recall reading Harry Kemelman's Rabbi detective stories, and there was stuff like this in there, so not just denominations, but whole different religions do it.
(The issue that sticks in the mind concern a wealthy but not very observant family who wanted to hold their wedding in the synagogue - with prawn cocktail!)
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
I've read press reports about two Creamtealand churches where a small group of people requested a private meeting with the new incumbent, in order to strongly put their case and try to get him to agree to their demands. In both cases, the new vicar only stayed a week or so, then resigned, citing this going behind backs stuff as the reason for leaving.
It's sad when people can't give the new incumbent the benefit of the doubt (and maybe even some support?!) while he/she finds their feet and works out how to combine care for those already attending church with outreach to those who don't. It's going to take time.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
I know of two churches which think of themselves as a social club.
One, anglo-catholic had folk during an intgerregnum telling the wardens, 'The kind of vicar I want....' Then there was a divisive issue which led to people asking others 'Are you one of us?'or 'Whose side are you on.' It was also a case of people attending it because they liked the bells and smells. Not many at daily mass or using the sacrament of reconcilation. Eventually, about half the congregation left.
The other is evangelical-ish. Their interregnum was too short and they secured a new vicar whom they thought would keep them in the manner to which they were accustomed. They didn't say much in their parish profile about what sort of incumbent they were seeking. Within a few weeks, long-established lay leaders ganged up on the poor man.
In a world where many are isolated, it is good that churches act as a social club for the lonely but not to the extent that that is the be all and end all of its existence.
We don't want 'father knows best' types any more but we also don't need 'chaplains of congregations' either. Not if we are to grow - in numbers and in discipleship.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
I think a new incumbent can often quite unwittingly be the catalyst which brings old tensions and disagreements to the surface. In this situation they are totally guiltless and completely flabbergasted! (I know, I've been there and can think of other churches where this has happened and the Minister has left).
[ 24. January 2014, 17:35: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Or of course if the last vicar was their best mate they take their 'bereavement' out on his successor. (I say 'his' because women clergy rarely seem to get caught up in these situations. I don't know if they don't have a long enough history, or have more conciliatory personalities, or just that we don't seem to hear about them in such cases.)
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
That's very interesting - could it be that the women have been put into parishes where the bishops are quite sure it won't happen? Because it would seem that a woman priest would be a very likely target for that sort of thing.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
|
Posted
I’ve seen it happen with a woman. She was put into a difficult parish, as an inexperienced incumbent and just like this case, with little support or mentoring. She has since left parish ministry
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Maybe it's just that I've not heard of examples of the bullying of women priests. I can't believe it doesn't go on so maybe my comment was irrelevant.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
|
Posted
there has probably not been as many - yet because of the reasons you said
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I've read press reports about two Creamtealand churches where a small group of people requested a private meeting with the new incumbent, in order to strongly put their case and try to get him to agree to their demands. In both cases, the new vicar only stayed a week or so, then resigned, citing this going behind backs stuff as the reason for leaving.
How is asking for, and receiving, a meeting with the incumbent priest "going behind his back"? It would seem to be exactly the opposite of that.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
That isn't. But it's almost certain that covert plotting had been going on for a while before that.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
|
Posted
I've seen these sort of goings on in both the Church of England and the Baptist Church, and as a result my family felt we had to leave both particular churches. (Now back in the CofE in a much happier, more stable congregation).
In both situations the issue was a handful of powerful individuals prepared to influence those around them using whatever means necessary to get their own way, which was not necessarily to preserve the church as simply a social club.
--------------------
My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I've read press reports about two Creamtealand churches where a small group of people requested a private meeting with the new incumbent, in order to strongly put their case and try to get him to agree to their demands. In both cases, the new vicar only stayed a week or so, then resigned, citing this going behind backs stuff as the reason for leaving.
How is asking for, and receiving, a meeting with the incumbent priest "going behind his back"? It would seem to be exactly the opposite of that.
I suppose it was all the scheming and plotting it took to get to a poition of 'strongly putting their case to him' so that he would agree totheir demands
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
It's when someone phones you up and says, "People are saying ..." when those people are themselves and their cronies.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
I suppose it was all the scheming and plotting it took to get to a poition of 'strongly putting their case to him' so that he would agree totheir demands
I guess so. Not involved personally with either church so can only go on the press reports. Sounded like an own goal anyway, because in both cases the priest called their bluff and left them to sort themselves out before having to go through the whole process of finding
another incumbent.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
I suppose it was all the scheming and plotting it took to get to a poition of 'strongly putting their case to him' so that he would agree totheir demands
A more innocent view would be that if you had a problem with something a new priest was doing, it would be reasonable to canvas the opinion of your friends at church in order to determine whether it was a generally-held view or something unique to you. If most people like innovation X, you're probably going to have to lump it, whereas if lots of people don't, it becomes reasonable to talk to the priest about it.
Whether or not it is "scheming and plotting" is rather a question of the attitudes of the parishioners rather than their behaviour. Whether the priest views it as "scheming and plotting" is also rather a question of the attitude of the priest.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
|
Posted
I think, and the stories on this thread seem to confirm, that power struggles in churches may be the norm, and that this is what Christian community is like.
Is this new? I can well believe that people today are more aware of different styles of church and worship, and that a consumerist mindset encourages them to think they should be able to have a church of the type they would prefer. People are better at working systems than they used to be, and less accepting of the status quo. I think people are less deferential towards authority than were previous generations.
But I think these trends, by and large and in society as a whole, are good ones. I don't think they've run their course, either.
I don't think church conflict is new, though I do think it's much sharper and more common. I know how painful it is, for churches as well as ministers. Your particular church can feel like the whole world, and when it's sick, or angry, or uncaring, or vindictive it is horrible.
I think we have to stop treating conflicts as if they were aberrations. I think that conflict resolution needs to be learned and used by all congregations as a normal part of daily life. Practise in the good times so you'll have the skills for the tough times.
In particular I think we have to examine much more carefully our different ideas about what the church is for. I don't believe anyone wants the church to be more like a social club. That's the derogatory comment of someone with different ideas. People may feel that the values of belonging, caring, affirming and welcoming are really important in a church, and they may have a very limited vision of how that might work out. They may indeed make it a priority to surround themselves with just the people they know well and carry on doing the same old things, but with a bit of help to unpack that I suspect they would be able to articulate a vision of the church as a place of welcome and belonging - which are clearly good things.
I think that trying to set out who the church is for, what it's purpose is, what would count as a good year, what would count as dreadful failure - agreeing a mission statement, if you like - would go some way to resolving these wretched subterranean fault lines.
Communication and honesty, too. Baptist Trainfan's remark about the person who phones you up and tells you 'A lot of people are saying such and such' rings painful bells. I always suspected that it ought to be possible to laugh this sort of thing off, or blithely ignore it. Our sensitivity to such manipulative tactics is what gives them their power. But our sensitivity is also what makes us good ministers and valued church members.
It's not impossible, though, to imagine a church where people learn to be aware of the importance of speaking for themselves, and not on behalf of invisible power groups, where people would be alert to the danger signs. 'A lot of people think ..' really is said in more or less those words. We could all learn to listen for it.
--------------------
My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
"Scheming and plotting" would also be an obvious diagnosis if the "strongly felt demands" they scheduled the private interview for turned out to be demands that the pastor do things THEIR way in opposition to the needs and wants of another group in the church. In this case the scheming takes the form of secretly trying to secure the pastor's support (read: obedience) before the other side has a chance to present their position. I can totally understand a new pastor leaving after such an interview. It would reveal not only that the church was deeply and dangerously divided, but that at least one faction was prepared to fight dirty.
[ 25. January 2014, 12:54: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Don't much like consumerist attitudes, hatless, but I agree about the other social trends and that on the whole they are good.
Conflicts are indeed normal. It's good for any church leadership to give more thought to conflict resolution. In a recent case I know, the church leader thought he was the right person to mediate a conflict but the truth was that he was an inherent cause of it. The result was not good.
Worth googling conflict resolution in churches. Some interesting approaches to that may be found. Not too many churches are good at mediating conflict, recognising the principles, pitfalls and best practices.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
My own experience as well as my reading suggest that churches are singularly bad at dealing with conflict.
Both priest and people tend to be drawn predominantly from certain personality types, which creates very little balance in congregations. Problems are allowed to fester because people are afraid to deal with them openly, and there may be a passive-aggressive tendency that discourages openness. It's hardly surprising that in some cases these issues blow up and create a full-scale catastrophe.
I hope this church can soon become a place of peace, kindness and Christian love.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I think, and the stories on this thread seem to confirm, that power struggles in churches may be the norm, and that this is what Christian community is like.
As it was in Corinth! But that doesn't necessarily mean it's right ...
[ 25. January 2014, 14:55: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I don't think church conflict is new, though I do think it's much sharper and more common.
Perhaps because we're in a less deferential age which means we are not so likely to meekly accept what "Father" says. In many ways that's a good thing.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
