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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:

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Originally posted by Zach82:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Shit happening and God doing shitty things are very different. Especially when the reason given for him doing it is shitty.

If I believed this I'd be a nervous wreck, constantly in fear that this bastard God would murder my children because of some transgression of mine.

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I'm not sure God killing babies for no reason at all (which he quite demonstrably does all the time) is much better than God killing a baby for a reason.

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Rather than simply making this essentially conservative assertion, would you care to defend it?

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What more defense can there be than "It's Scripture?" "The mouth of the LORD hath spoken it," and we live "by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

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For an Anglican, you have what would seem to be a quite fundamentalist approach to Scripture. I'd see the scriptural canon as a collection of books written and compiled by numerous persons, variously giving their nationalistic interpretations of history, their primitive theological justifications for their nationalism and wanton war-making, a sample of poetry of various purposes, creation mythology and other myths, some more advanced ethical teaching, accounts of the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth (with some embellishments), history of the early Jesus Movement/Church, and a series of essays in the form of letters attempting to work out a theology and ethos for the early Church.

As to God deliberately killing babies, I'm not sure what you mean, Zach. Are you referring to spontaneous abortion, disease, and other biological processes of the natural world? If so, I hardly see that these are acts of God.

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
How is scripture authoritative?

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:

My sense is that often the more difficult bits are rejected simply because they are difficult . . .

For me personally, I believe what the Scriptures teach because the Church declares them authoritative. I suppose this makes me an Augustinian Catholic, rather than a Protestant.

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I would say that if you trust Scripture to tell you true things about God, there's no reason not to trust it to tell you the truth about faith and morality.

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:
And if you accept what Scripture has to say with regard to Jesus in the Gospels, but reject what Paul has to say about Jesus and related matters, then on what grounds do you reject Paul?

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:
My sense is that often the more difficult bits are rejected simply because they are difficult, or because they're inconvenient to the way people would rather live their lives, or because people's politics are what dictate their religion.

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Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
And I have to say that I find it a little amusing that here, on a Ship of supposed 'Christian Unrest', there are people who seem to get so anxious at the slightest hint of questioning about 'The Faith' and who are ready at the drop of a hat to shut off all possibility of discussion in subjects that make them uncomfortable.

If this is not the place to ask the unaskable questions or to think the unthinkable thoughts, where is??

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:

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Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
And I have to say that I find it a little amusing that here, on a Ship of supposed 'Christian Unrest', there are people who seem to get so anxious at the slightest hint of questioning about 'The Faith' and who are ready at the drop of a hat to shut off all possibility of discussion in subjects that make them uncomfortable.

If this is not the place to ask the unaskable questions or to think the unthinkable thoughts, where is??

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So what, you want an encounter group where everyone nods his head and mumbles "Groovy, thanks for sharing"? You posted something, someone disagreed with it. I have no problem with you personally; I indicated some points of disagreement with you and others who posted on this thread, and you responded.

I have registered the honesty and sincerity of your objections, but I still think they're wrong. Sorry about that, but I'm sure you'll get over the pain of an Internet stranger disagreeing with you. And "I could never believe in a God who..." wangst deserves little more than out-of-hand dismissal.

Sorry about my remark re Paul. It was meant more as an example than as a representation of what anyone has actually said on this thread. However, it remains a problem that the words of Jesus as reported in the Gospels are accepted as true, and certain things that Paul says are ignored or attacked solely because they contradict modern social mores. On what grounds?, I ask again, because I really would like to know if there is a hermeneutic beyond "good 21st century middle class liberals think women should be able to do whatever men do."

And if a person's perception of the truth about faith and morality don't come from Scripture, where do they come from? Their own special feelings?

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What's wrong with the oecumenical creeds? Even I can say them!

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Originally posted by Evensong:
How do you get restoration from ἀποκαταστάσεως



Away from (Apo)
going down/according to (Kata)
standing/insurrection (stasis)

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1. the return of a heavenly body (e.g., the sun) to its starting point,
2. the return of a thing to its perfection (the sense here), or,
3. in diplomatic documents, the return of a governmental state to "normal conditions and stability" (the sense in Acts 1:6, "restore the kingdom to Israel").

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
There's a difference between wrestling with the scriptures, finding some things difficult to understand, and outright rejection of some parts whilst accepting others. On what basis does one accept some and reject others without being inconsistent? You can't interpret the scriptures through the Zeitgeist with any consistency.

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Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:

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Originally posted by Zach82:

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In short, all things may be questioned.

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Of course, though not if you want to be a Christian. For Christians, the definitive word has been spoken, irrevocably, in Jesus, whom we encounter in this set of books at the center [sic] of this community called the Church.

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That made no sense. In effect, if you pronounce view X then in order for me to be a christian I have to agree unquestioningly with your proposition.

This is a discussion board where there are a variety of views. While I may think many are wrong, just as many think I am wrong over a great many matters.

But you fail to address to the point of precisely what you mean by the "definitive word". Which Jesus is it? The Jesus of the synoptics, the Jesus of John's gospel or the gospel of Peter?

What about the interpretations? Would you subscribe to the Jewish mystic of Geza Vermes, the peasant of JD Crossan or the itinerant rabbi of NT Wright?

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Are you really that pedantic as to put "sic" after the American spelling of "center."

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posted                      

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

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Originally posted by Zach82:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Shit happening and God doing shitty things are very different. Especially when the reason given for him doing it is shitty.

If I believed this I'd be a nervous wreck, constantly in fear that this bastard God would murder my children because of some transgression of mine.

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I'm not sure God killing babies for no reason at all (which he quite demonstrably does all the time)

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You say he does. I say he doesn't. I say shit happens, not because God does the shit, but because we live in a real world in which shit happens.

And if he is into child murder, he can fucking well leave my kids out of it. And me, for that matter.

Do feel free to wander around mortuaries telling grieving parents God killed their child. I'm sure it'd mean we'd soon be free of you here.

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quote:

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Do feel free to wander around mortuaries telling grieving parents God killed their child. I'm sure it'd mean we'd soon be free of you here.

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Take it to hell, you twit.

[ 18. June 2014, 04:05: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Karl

Since we live in a highly pluralistic society I'd avoid talking about God to a bereaved parent unless I knew where they were coming from. I haven't been trained in ministering to the bereaved and it's not my job to burden unhappy people with beliefs that they don't share.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

Does raising questions about the Second Coming, or the Virgin Birth (or whatever), really place me and others outside the Christian faith?

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Posted                          

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

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Originally posted by Evensong:
How do you get restoration from ἀποκαταστάσεως



Away from (Apo)
going down/according to (Kata)
standing/insurrection (stasis)

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You can arrive at the meaning of uninflammable by breaking it up:

       un + in + flam + able

and then sussing the sense out as "the quality of being insusceptible to breaking out in flame," but then you leave aside the meaning of "not irascible."

As well, the idea that florescence comes from florescens, or to bloom, helps you in botanical contexts, but it leaves aside the metaphorical meaning of "flourishing", which ill serves you when you run across "florescence" in a paper on salts staining the surface of water-soaked stone (a florescence of salts on the surface). You stray even further afield when you encounter the abbreviation of another form of this Latin word, floruit, when you read "fl. ca. 3rd cent" in some tiny-print footnote. It means "he wrote mostly around the third century."

To get at ἀποκαταστάσεως, when, like me, your license for Greek is restricted largely to doing word studies, you need more help.

The place to start, and probably stop, is to look up ἀποκατάστασις in Newman's Greek-English Dictionary that is bound into many UBS Greek New Testaments. There you find: "restoration", plain and simple. Do stop there.

However, if you are blessed with more books and idle time than sense, you can go to BDAG and read the short article there, which gives you three contexts for the use of the word and a verbal cognate:

1. the return of a heavenly body (e.g., the sun) to its starting point,
2. the return of a thing to its perfection (the sense here), or,
3. in diplomatic documents, the return of a governmental state to "normal conditions and stability" (the sense in Acts 1:6, "restore the kingdom to Israel").

If you are sick abed, but not that sick, you can continue on to Louw & Nida's semantic domains dictionary of the NT to find that the verb is used in Mk. 3:5 ("he stretched out his hand and it was restored" or "healed").

All these books should be found in your local seminary library reference section.

That, my dear Evensong, is how you get "restoration" from ἀποκαταστάσεως. (The bit about healing was welcomed news to me. Thank you.)

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You're a farkin legend to the etymologically interested. In fact I think that's quotes file worthy.



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a theological scrapbook

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Shit happening and God doing shitty things are very different. Especially when the reason given for him doing it is shitty.

If I believed this I'd be a nervous wreck, constantly in fear that this bastard God would murder my children because of some transgression of mine.

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I'm not sure God killing babies for no reason at all (which he quite demonstrably does all the time)

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You say he does. I say he doesn't. I say shit happens, not because God does the shit, but because we live in a real world in which shit happens.

And if he is into child murder, he can fucking well leave my kids out of it. And me, for that matter.

Do feel free to wander around mortuaries telling grieving parents God killed their child. I'm sure it'd mean we'd soon be free of you here.

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You have a God that is unable to save children who die, or unwilling. Pick your poison. I choose Providence.

I don't find people need to be told to feel guilty or angry at God in times of tragedy. I try to face those emotions head on, you pretend they don't exist but for people like me.

quote:

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Do feel free to wander around mortuaries telling grieving parents God killed their child. I'm sure it'd mean we'd soon be free of you here.

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Take it to hell, you twit.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:
So what, you want an encounter group where everyone nods his head and mumbles "Groovy, thanks for sharing"? You posted something, someone disagreed with it. I have no problem with you personally; I indicated some points of disagreement with you and others who posted on this thread, and you responded.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:
if a person's perception of the truth about faith and morality don't come from Scripture, where do they come from? Their own special feelings?

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:
So what, you want an encounter group where everyone nods his head and mumbles "Groovy, thanks for sharing"? You posted something, someone disagreed with it. I have no problem with you personally; I indicated some points of disagreement with you and others who posted on this thread, and you responded.

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I have no problem with people disagreeing. If I had such a problem, I would never have opened such a thread which painted a target on my back.

What I was pointing out was the nature of the disagreement - that some people try to close down discussion on tricky subjects by effectively declaring them off limits.

quote:

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:
if a person's perception of the truth about faith and morality don't come from Scripture, where do they come from? Their own special feelings?

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But Scripture cannot provide 'the truth' about all questions of morality and faith. From scripture we can pick up certain fundamentals, but there is an awful lot more for us to work out. The Bible is not a book where all the answers are to be found. It doesn't work like that and it can't work like that - not unless you take the most extreme fundamentalist position.

So it seems to me that we do have a high level of latitude to examine and assess. And this continual reassessment is not based on 'hippy feelings' but should draw upon the insights of science, sociology, comparative religion and all other disciplines that may have something positive to offer.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Not to mention good old compassion, empathy and the bleedin' obvious.

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Posted                       

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How do you get restoration from ἀποκαταστάσεως

[Confused]

Away from (Apo)
going down/according to (Kata)
standing/insurrection (stasis)

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

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Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Does raising questions about the Second Coming, or the Virgin Birth (or whatever), really place me and others outside the Christian faith?

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No, of course it doesn't. Bible study is all about asking questions.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Also, Evensong, the answer is staring you in the face:

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How do you get restoration from ἀποκαταστάσεως

[Confused]

Away from (Apo)
going down/according to (Kata)
standing/insurrection (stasis)

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"away from a [going] down situation" i.e. going back up: being restored.

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Posted                         

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Originally posted by Kwesi:
I am increasingly of the opinion that it is important to distinguish between faith as "trust" and faith as "belief", and that salvation by faith is essentially about having trust in Jesus Christ rather than belief in a set of theological propositions.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
Not salvation by faith, justification by faith.

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Posted                         

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

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Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
Not salvation by faith, justification by faith.

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Would you care to distinguish the two for us?

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Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
For example, I am deeply uncomfortable with the cursing Psalms.

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Originally posted by Moo:
There is a thread in Limbo about this. It doesn't provide neat answers, but it does give food for thought.

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