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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Fonts (typography!) used in church
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
I like Perpetua, especially for titles.
Best part is that I think it comes standard with Microsoft Office.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
C***c S**s isn't the only font that isn't suitable for serious use. Curlz may be OK for an invitation to a children's party, but not for service sheets or the Parish Magazine. I'm not too sure about Harrington or Mistral, or any fonts that are supposed to look like either felt tip pens or copper plate handwriting with flourishes.
Papyrus: Also awful. Also used by my church when the person who produces the bulletin wants to give something vaguely resembling an ancient Near East feel. You know, like Jesus.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Stranger in a strange land
Shipmate
# 11922
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Posted
On those occasions when I preach from a prepared text I print it out in Comic Sans. I find it the easiest to read at a glance as it's 'jerkiness' seems to make it easy to find my place in the text.
I think this may be related to the fact that I used to be able to flick through a book and find my place by the shape of the text on the page. Comic Sans gives quite distinct 'page shapes'.
Not that that is necessarily useful in Church bulletins....
Posts: 608 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stranger in a strange land:
On those occasions when I preach from a prepared text I print it out in Comic Sans. I find it the easiest to read at a glance as it's 'jerkiness' seems to make it easy to find my place in the text.
I think this may be related to the fact that I used to be able to flick through a book and find my place by the shape of the text on the page. Comic Sans gives quite distinct 'page shapes'.
Not that that is necessarily useful in Church bulletins....
I read somewhere that Comic Sans is useful for people with dyslexia because the nature of the disorder makes it difficult to distinguish letters, especially serifs, and the irregularity of CS characters makes it easier to distinguish.
That said, it's a terrible font for general presentation. If it works for you to use Comic Sans for your notes, power to you.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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crunt
Shipmate
# 1321
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by crunt:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Comic Sans is actually used a lot by those involved in Special Educational Needs provision since it is one of the easiest fonts for those with reading difficulties to read. This is because the lowercase 'a' is formed similarly to how one would write it.
Zamyatin is better.
Some of those letters look a little weird to me (the "s"s arege ugly, the "9" squashed, and where did they get that lower-case "t" from?) and the whole things a bit stencil-like. Also a bit of a 1/I/l problem.
I've never used it, but this Sassoon Primary typeface looks pretty much exactly like the letter forms kids are taught to write in school. Whether or not that helps poor readers I do not know.
Actually, you're right about the lack tail on the 't' in Zamyatin, but that is how teachers here (in Malaysia) are instructed to teach new entrants how to form the letter - like a cross. I hadn't considered the 1/I/l thing. Sassoon is lovely, but Zamyatin is free. Even though the punctuation reverts to TNR and sits above the line, we still use it a lot for young readers (we just fiddle with the full stops to make them work). We are discouraged from using CS when preparing materials for teachers to use in very young learner classes because of the jerkiness others have commented on, as well as the lack of tail on the 't' and the angled 'horizontal' bar on the 'e' .
I don't know how Zamyatin would play out in church, though.
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QUIZ: Bible
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Posts: 269 | From: Up country in the middle of Malaysia | Registered: Sep 2001
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Ana
Apprentice
# 11667
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
I read somewhere that Comic Sans is useful for people with dyslexia because the nature of the disorder makes it difficult to distinguish letters, especially serifs, and the irregularity of CS characters makes it easier to distinguish.
That said, it's a terrible font for general presentation. If it works for you to use Comic Sans for your notes, power to you.
Open Dyslexic is designed to be more easily read by dyslexic people, mostly by making the letters "bottom heavy" so that 'b' can be distinguished from 'd', 'p' and 'q'.
I have to say though, I read by word shape and find it gives me a headache to read any significant amount of it.
Posts: 17 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Good to know that those with reading difficulties aren't welcome in church.
I missed where someone said that.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ana:
Open Dyslexic is designed to be more easily read by dyslexic people, mostly by making the letters "bottom heavy" so that 'b' can be distinguished from 'd', 'p' and 'q'.
I have to say though, I read by word shape and find it gives me a headache to read any significant amount of it.
I agree. I find that font difficult and uncomfortable to read.
Going back to Mockingale's recommendation of Perpetua, I think the Church in Wales uses it for its service books.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ana:
Open Dyslexic is designed to be more easily read by dyslexic people, mostly by making the letters "bottom heavy" so that 'b' can be distinguished from 'd', 'p' and 'q'.
I think the problem with that apporach is that it assumes "dyslexia" is one thing. it clearly isn't. There are loads of reasons people have trouble reading and what works for one may not work for another.
quote:
I have to say though, I read by word shape and find it gives me a headache to read any significant amount of it.
quote:
I have to say though, I read by word shape...
Almost all skilled readers read by word shape, at least some of the time. If they didn't they couldn't possibly read as fast as they do. Typical readers do 100-200 words a minute - much faster than speech - and most people can raise that to 300 or more. People who teach speed reading often claim you can up that to 700 wpm or more though others doubt how much comprehension that involves (there is a lot of bollocks spread around by peole trying to sell patent speed reading courses)
Its possible to scan text for key words much faster than that, or what some people call "skim" reading to get a general outline of a text while skipping the detail. I think I can do 2000 words a minute (I can get through the whole Bible in a couple of hours or the NT alone in less than one) and some people report 3000 or 4000. But that does involve skipping what doesn't seem interesting.
Anyway, you can't do that by sounding out words in your head, or by paying attention to every letter.
quote:
...and find it gives me a headache to read any significant amount of it.
Just looking at that web page made me feel nauseous.
But then I'm rather ill at the moment so lots of things make me feel sick!
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Good to know that those with reading difficulties aren't welcome in church.
I missed where someone said that.
That's cos no-one did.
[Edit: UBB]
[ 19. January 2014, 17:53: Message edited by: Zappa ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
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Posted
I've always found Garamond - Adobe Garamond is a great example - a fine typeface for extensive text. Times New Roman isn't awful either - a bit banal due to its status as the default in most versions of Microsoft Word, but it does the job admirably. Helvetica and its cousin Arial are great for headings and especially for signage, hence their frequent appearances in corporate logos, but variably spaced serif fonts give a bit smoother look on paper.
Above all, though, use actual publishing software for your bulletins and missals, not a word processor (though Apple Pages is probably the next best thing). Something like InDesign just takes less effort to give you attractive results. Same goes for your newsletters, too.
Posts: 49 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 2011
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
Our parish uses Garamond for all official publications. It works reasonably well. I have, though often wished to see more liturgical books printed in the style that William Morris used for the Kelmscott Press. Failing that, Daniel Berkeley Updike Standard Version of the 1928 American BCP is a model of good, sensible, liturgical typography.
I may say, though, that the standard of typography in parish churches is usually acceptable, but the quality of paper used is invariably substandard light-weight printer paper. This is more difficult to fix, as good paper requires money and the better the paper the more expensive it is.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
One parish church which shall be nameless used Comic Sans for its Easter High Mass. What can one say? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
One parish church which shall be nameless used Comic Sans for its Easter High Mass. What can one say?
If I were forced to create a service sheet in Comic Sans, I would set the closing versicle and response in word balloons being said by Lucy Van Pelt and Charlie Brown respectively.
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AndyB
Shipmate
# 10186
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Posted
Charles Schulz might have been offended by Comic Sans being let near his creation...
I used Palatino Linotype for my wedding Order of Service. It worked well, serifs in all the right places.
Posts: 149 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2005
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Does anyone know where this vogue for Comic Sans came from?
At least with Papyrus you can point the finger at something.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Swick
Shipmate
# 8773
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Posted
All these postings about Comic Sans made me look it up (I'd never heard of it). It looks like a fine font for something geared toward children or selling toothpaste in an advertisement, but not for anything serious.
At my church we now use Palatino Linotype, and have also used Garamond. Both of these are easy to read and look dignified.
Posts: 197 | From: Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Does anyone know where this vogue for Comic Sans came from?
It's a comic book face. And it came free with Micro$oft. Some foolish people think that comics are only for children and some of them suffer from the delusion that children must find that sort of style easier to read.
Horses for courses. Small captions or word bubbles maybe (though there are other far superior comicbook typefaces) but not blocks of text. Or running heads.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Does anyone know where this vogue for Comic Sans came from?
Yes: primary school teachers (like my wife) who use it for everything! It's apparently considered both friendly and legible.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Thanks guys - horses for courses indeed. Though it still doesn't really explain why adults have suddenly gone gaga and infantile when grownup is called for. I've no objection to people using it for children's birthday cards.
A bit of a tangent - one of my daughters is an illustrator, but she does hand-lettering for her captions.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
A bit of a tangent - one of my daughters is an illustrator, but she does hand-lettering for her captions.
As the great illustrators and cartoon artists always have.
To relate it to the topic, I once rummaged through a file of old service sheets at our church, as you do, and found a series that had a hand-drawn angel on the front and all the parish information on the back was hand-lettered. Looked rather jazzy for an Anglo-Catholic shrine parish, but it was the 1960's, IIRC. Nowadays it's Sabon, with the hymns imported from RiteStuff in crisp Baskerville.
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
I've been using Constantia* as my default font for both my technical reports and liturgical pieces. Even though Seminary rules requires TNR or Arial, no one seems to have noticed. Not everyone likes the numbers, though.
* It's been coming free with MS Office for a while now.
[ 27. January 2014, 18:30: Message edited by: Episcoterian ]
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
I'm on Facebook too!
Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Your college rules require a particular typeface in submitted work? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Obsessive-compulsive-anal (as devotees of discredited outdated pop psychological insults might have said)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
My experience, Ken, is that most US colleges require humanities* papers in Times New Roman, 12 pt, double-spaced, 1 inch margins. They also tend to give length requirements in terms of numbers of pages (hence why such specifications are necessary) whereas British universities tend to ask for a range of numbers of words.
--
* Sciences, engineering and business seem to be different.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Many grant proposals specify 12-pt TNR so biology too. Others are satisfied with 'any standard legible font'.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
They may do, but that doesn't stop me from thinking Ken's adjectives are more polite than they deserve.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Your college rules require a particular typeface in submitted work?
Obsessive-compulsive-anal (as devotees of discredited outdated pop psychological insults might have said)
Ken, all College-level and higher education institutions in Brazil are bound by ABNT Rules of Style (a national organization akin to the ISO). The rules are akin to the APA Style, although different in many aspects.
On top of that, Universities have some freedom to deviate from ABNT rules, so if you are taking some credits elsewhere, your head might explode with ridiculous minutiae as 1,5 or 2,0 spacing between lines, 1,5 or 2,5 centimeters for new paragraphs. Some allow you to choose between Arial and TNR, some will pick one as mandatory.
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
I'm on Facebook too!
Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Weird. Just weird. Maybe this should transfer to that odd things thread.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Weird. Just weird. Maybe this should transfer to that odd things thread.
Research councils in the UK specify font size and recommend fonts. For example, the BBSRC wants typefaces Arial, Helvetica or Verdana. The EPSRC wants Arial or Helvetica. I would say (from reviewing applications) that few if any researchers deviate from these recommendations in practice.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Episcoterian: Ken, all College-level and higher education institutions in Brazil are bound by ABNT Rules of Style (a national organization akin to the ISO).
This is my experience too.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Research councils in the UK specify font size and recommend fonts.
I always thought this was to restrict length of the attachments for applications, which is often set at a maximum number of pages. It isn't fair if one applicant squeezes in a few thousand extra words by selecting a smaller font.
And some applications on that basis also limit the margin sizes - for those that don't one can often squeeze in a few hundred more words per side without it being obvious.
The final trick in the last few hours before submission is to reduce the size of the paragraph breaks - so far no-one seems to restrict those.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I always thought this was to restrict length of the attachments for applications, which is often set at a maximum number of pages.
Font size, yes, but as EPSRC says: "For accessibility purposes, a sans-serif font style such as Arial or Helvetica should be used, as these are more easily readable to those with visual impairment."
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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AndyB
Shipmate
# 10186
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Posted
That led to an interesting discussion in my last church. Conventional wisdom is indeed that sans serif fonts are best for accessibility purposes, and I have seen documentation to that effect with regard to a corporate rebranding in an organisation about seven or eight years ago.
The person who assembled the Order of Service in my last church pointed out with considerable validity that actually, serifs can be a great aid to legibility. He was however taught about typesetting in a time when even Arial and Helvetica were considered to be fonts for headers, not block text!
Posts: 149 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2005
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AndyB:
That led to an interesting discussion in my last church. Conventional wisdom is indeed that sans serif fonts are best for accessibility purposes, and I have seen documentation to that effect with regard to a corporate rebranding in an organisation about seven or eight years ago.
The person who assembled the Order of Service in my last church pointed out with considerable validity that actually, serifs can be a great aid to legibility. He was however taught about typesetting in a time when even Arial and Helvetica were considered to be fonts for headers, not block text!
We touched on this a bit earlier. So far as printed documents are concerned, there do seem to be certain forms of visual impairment where that is true. But there are other forms where it is not true. And for the general population, many people find serif fonts easier on the eye when reading extended passages of text. The general consensus, based on actual research rather than theory, appears to be that what you gain with one font class is likely to be balanced by losses elsewhere.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Does anyone know where this vogue for Comic Sans came from?
It's a comic book face. And it came free with Micro$oft. Some foolish people think that comics are only for children and some of them suffer from the delusion that children must find that sort of style easier to read.
Horses for courses. Small captions or word bubbles maybe (though there are other far superior comicbook typefaces) but not blocks of text. Or running heads.
Comic Sans was created by a Microsoft typesetter to put easily accessible hints into software manuals for software used by non-technical people. It was intended to make the less formal bits look less daunting. It was styled after the lettering style used in comics and hence the name.
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
Posts: 602 | From: outskirts of Babylon | Registered: Jul 2005
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
If I were forced to create a service sheet in Comic Sans, I would set the closing versicle and response in word balloons being said by Lucy Van Pelt and Charlie Brown respectively.
I think you could develop this idea for the service sheet for all-age/family mass. An alternate to the 'celebrant says the normal, congo say the bold' convention.
You could still lose the comic sans, though.
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
Posts: 602 | From: outskirts of Babylon | Registered: Jul 2005
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
Calibri for the main texts - any of our visual impaired members find it easy on the eye and accessible. For major headings we use Brush Script St.
Helvitica seems to have disappeared with latest Microsoft upgrades.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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AndyB
Shipmate
# 10186
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Posted
Two further notes, regardless of actual font used:
1. White space is a lovely thing and helps people find things instead of trawling through dense text (since most orders of service pack more text into a square inch than most novels)
2. Another accessibility tip. If you are presenting block text for any reason, left range the text. Don't justify it.
Posts: 149 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AndyB:
If you are presenting block text for any reason, left range the text. Don't justify it.
And if you are presenting texts to be said corporately (e.g. confession), put line breaks at appropriate pauses-for-breath. Common Worship and similar official books do this by default, but all too often I see such texts that sprawl across the page and reduce the congregation to incoherent mumbling. (The fewer such examples of choral speaking in the liturgy the better, IMHO, but that is another discussion)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Quinquireme
Shipmate
# 17384
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Posted
Just out of interest, what font does Ship of Fools use? It looks like Gill Sans to me; and on that subject, I heard that the Church of England had some misgivings about using that font on account of Gill's unorthodox sexual preferences.
Posts: 56 | From: SE London | Registered: Oct 2012
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Quinquireme:
Just out of interest, what font does Ship of Fools use? It looks like Gill Sans to me; and on that subject, I heard that the Church of England had some misgivings about using that font on account of Gill's unorthodox sexual preferences.
What you're reading now is in Verdana. As for Gill Sans, the C of E seems to have gotten over its misgivings, as everything in Common Worship is in Gill Sans!
[ 10. February 2014, 13:16: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
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Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known
Shipmate
# 11399
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Posted
The BCP here is set in TNR, but promises to be re-issued in a typeface that is NOT Times New Roman.
Is all.
Posts: 1833 | From: Manila, Philippines | Registered: May 2006
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Yangtze
Shipmate
# 4965
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Posted
I was wandering down Hatton Gardens, London's diamond & jewellery street, the other day and saw this splendid example of inappropriate font usage.
If it's not Comic Sans it's something very similar to it and a wonderful way to make your high end, expensive jewellery shop look cheap and childish.
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Posts: 2022 | From: the smallest town in England | Registered: Sep 2003
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
I think on a service sheet a sans font for the minister and a serif font and bolded for the people assists in understanding.
On an A/V system the only option I htink is a sans font like Tahoma or arial should be used.
On a notice board despite the C of E love of serif fonts TNR, garramond, etc i think a sans font is best possibly Avenir, futura because they are amongst the clearest at a distance. I consider that bland serifs like arial and Helvetica should be avoided.
I was wondering if any church had used the the free signika font for church signs?
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yangtze:
I was wandering down Hatton Gardens, London's diamond & jewellery street, the other day and saw this splendid example of inappropriate font usage.
If it's not Comic Sans it's something very similar to it and a wonderful way to make your high end, expensive jewellery shop look cheap and childish.
I think it's intended to back up the third word at the bottom 'affordable'.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
I use one called Linux Libertine that I really like. It is a nice serif font that is easy to read and there are many characters in the character set. I usually use 13 or 14 point in service sheets.
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I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
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