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Source: (consider it) Thread: Should we accept that all scripture is to be accepted as truth?
Nightlamp
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Starbelly said
quote:
Truth is Truth, it is what is.

and what do you mean? What is what is?
what is in my imagination what I can see

I am fully aware that asking people to define truth is almost next to impossible along with asking what is scripture and why is this scripture.
but before we can grapple the question we must know what is meant by the word Truth or else there can never been a conclusion. since each one of us will assume something different when we say the word truth.

Do we believe that there are different levels of truth in the bible like the Song of songs is more important than Timothy?

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp


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Jim Powell

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Nightlamp..God is truth100%..Christ said I am the truth.. God the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of scripture to write truth,and they did in the original languages.
Christ said know the truth and the truth will make you free,again a command that must be possible to obey.
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Jim Powell

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Mouse..What about those who dont hear the gospel?
Everyone hears who wants to know God,God desires that none should perish.Gods desire is that all believe in Christ and be saved.An omniscient, omnipotent and just God will see to it that all who want to have a relationship with God will hear the good news.
Those who never reach accountablity automaticly go straight to heaven(God is fair).
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Nightlamp
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Thankyou Jim for replying and I agree that God is 100% truth but what is meant by truth in the context of the thread?

so if the writers wrote truth in the oringinal languages.
Then we have the writer of Ecclesiastes saying all is vanity, god commanding the destruction of whole cities and the song of songs saying polgamy is OK as long as you love a lot.
The devil pops down to annoy Job and god lets the devil kill his family
When you say truth do you mean this is what happened or what we should do or what?...

I believe the fact god is truth is a different order (I think ) to the point that scripture can be accepted as truth

It is possible that you are saying that if God is 100% truth (what ever that means) then scripture must be less than 100% truth in which case that is very intresting proposal...
I await more thoughts

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp


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Jim Powell

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Ruth..All who believe in Christ are saved,all who do not believe are not saved,this includes all of humanity whatever race they are,and whatever location they situated.There has never been a way of salvation for humanity except through the work of the cross,the sinless perfect humanity of Christ was judged for the sins of the whole world,he died a substitute for all.
I will not name one Nation or group of people that this applies to,because it applies to all of humanity.
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Jim Powell

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Nightlamp..Yes the inspired word of God is 100% truth..Now we get to the question do we want to know the truth as Christians.
If the answer is yes then God has the job of teaching the whole realm of bible truth to us..(Why because he has commanded the believer to know the truth)
God supplies the energy,time,Qualified Pastor,bible,filling of the Spirit..As in salvation we just accept what God has provided,all we contribute is the desire,the choice.
The first step is to find well qualified pastor.My Pastor is great but I am not sure that I can give his web site on here.
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
Nightlamp..Yes the inspired word of God is 100% truth..

That's right.

Truth is what is in accord with the actual state of affairs (Dictionary definition). Another definition is that truth is the form of good, or what leads to good.

Maybe Scripture comes more under the second definition. Much of it, to my mind, is too obviously symbolic to be literally true. If Cain, Adam, and Eve were the only people on earth, why was he worried what people would do to him. And who did he marry?

But all Scripture is written by God for the purpose of our salvation. It can still do that in the parts where it is symbolically written. It's general message is true, clear, and unambiguous - all the law and the prophets hang on the two great commandments.

Personally, except for the first few stories in Genesis, I think that it all happened literally as stated, miracles and all.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg


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Will
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I believe truth is only a perception of each individual and is useful only for philosophical discussion.

I would ask Jim (or any fundamental Christian) if there is only one "plan" in G-d's arsenal? Is there not a possibility of a different "plan" for Jews?
I know your NT scripture. You believe Jesus came for the Jews, was rejected, and his word went to the gentiles and converted Jews.
Since the church was formed, it has split into many doctrinally different denominations so I suppose those scriptures about judgement are fairly subjective as are many others.
Now I know one - I do not have an NT handy - where Jesus said he came not do away with the law but to fulfill it. Now many Christians still take this to mean he did away with the law, hence the Jewish form of worship. Clear reading , however, says he did not.

I propose something for thought:
G-d has answered prayers in my life many times.
G-d has healed a cousin of mine of something medicine could not - through prayer.
I am sometimes "filled" with the presence of G-d while in prayer.
Why should I have any doubt of my salvation if G-d is interacting with me on a personal level?

One more note:
G-d said more than once in the OT that He was tired of our burnt offerings and the smell of our incense. Right there would tell any clear-thinking Jew He was tired of law being put ahead of relationship. Jesus just said it differently.

That is it.
p.s. Please do not give me any crap about I am really praying to satan and he is the one who is doing all that. This would really

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Shalom, Will.


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RuthW

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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
All who believe in Christ are saved,all who do not believe are not saved,this includes all of humanity whatever race they are,and whatever location they situated.

So I still don't know where you stand on Abraham, et al. Abraham obviously could not have believed in Christ. Nor could Noah. Nor could Ruth. Nor could the Canaanites.

Will: I hope you don't think all Christians believe that stuff about Jews. I and countless others believe that the Jews will always be God's chosen people -- God keeps his promises, after all.


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ptarmigan
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Qualified pastors ... Oh very good. I'm all in favour of theological education; I once belonged to a church in which the leaders had no formal theological training. But we must be aware that it is a very human institution which provides the training and awards the qualifications. Pastoral qualifications form no good basis for biblical fundamentalism.

The best form of biblical fundamentalism consists of the systematic public reading of scripture without comment, and without trying to tell people in human language how to understand it or how to apply it.

I once took part in an ecumenical event in which the whole of the bible was read out aloud in a public place (C of E church) by members of the participating churches on a rota basis. hat could be more biblically fundamental ... and yet more harmless.

Pt


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Nightlamp
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Jim you said that God is 100% truth
then the Bible must be less than 100% or else the bible is God!

I believe that some parts of the bible are more inspired than others


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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp


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Nightlamp
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Not that we know what Truth is when it comes to the bible and how that differs from the truth of God.
So we are disscussing something withgoput knowing the groundwork or more likely we operate in different groundworks

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Steve_R
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
All who believe in Christ are saved,all who do not believe are not saved,this includes all of humanity whatever race they are,and whatever location they situated.There has never been a way of salvation for humanity except through the work of the cross,the sinless perfect humanity of Christ was judged for the sins of the whole world,he died a substitute for all.
I will not name one Nation or group of people that this applies to,because it applies to all of humanity.

What are the implications/consequences of not being saved for the person/people concerned Jim?

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Love and Kisses, Steve_R


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Groucho
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quote:
Originally posted by Another Swedenborgian:
Personally, except for the first few stories in Genesis, I think that it all happened literally as stated, miracles and all.

I'm curious.

Why just the first few stories in Genesis? On what grounds do you decide that these are not "literal" and that everything else is? It seems to me to be far more consistent to be 100% literalist, than to pick and choose which bits you think are literal. Once you admit that Genesis 1 isn't "literal", you have to open the door to every other part of the Bible.

So, where does this leave Job? Is this a "literal" story?

What about Jonah? Did this "literally" happen?

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"These are my principles.
If you don't like them, I have others."


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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Groucho:
I'm curious.

Why just the first few stories in Genesis? On what grounds do you decide that these are not "literal" and that everything else is? It seems to me to be far more consistent to be 100% literalist, than to pick and choose which bits you think are literal. Once you admit that Genesis 1 isn't "literal", you have to open the door to every other part of the Bible.

So, where does this leave Job? Is this a "literal" story?

What about Jonah? Did this "literally" happen?


Just an answer from this non-literalist:

Job - no

Jonah - probably not

Question back - does it matter?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.


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Jim Powell

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Steve.. Very sadly The Lake of fire for all eternity!
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Astro
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The Bible is the Truth but not scientific truth. We say things that are true in everyday life that are not scietifically true.

For example saying to the one you love
"you are beautiful like a red rose"
maybe true to the beholder but the person being talked about does not resemble a plant.

Or for those who believe that a day must be 24 hours long - have you ever used the phrase
"the sun shone all day"
meaning from dawn to dusk not for all 24 hours.

Astro

(who should become a shipmate)

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if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)


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Pasco
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quote:
Quoted by Nightlamp:
We still have not decided what truth would mean for this thread.

Sorry to jump back a bit. Whether we take a literal or non-literal view, the following may perhaps apply to both:

Phil 2:13 "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for his good pleasure."

As for the TRUTH?:

1 Truthfulness Relies Upon Total Honesty?

Let's hope the writers in truth knew what they were writing about. Personally, I have no problems whatsoever in taking a literal Genesis view, but I'm open to see the other viewpoint. Having read various commentaries on Genesis, in addition there are a lot of other publications giving historical credence to the lineage of Noah as shown in Genesis 10, which I find more fascinating than delving into the mysteries behind whether the world was created in 7 days, or not as the case may be.

2. Another aspect of the TRUTH?:

Truth Remains Unchanged Throughout History.

Doubting Thomas did not believe despite being there having, "seen it, done it, worn the T-shirt," so to speak. What chance have we except by FAITH?:

Feelings Are Ignored Truth Hallowed?

May the search for the truth continue.

-Pasco


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Will
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First off; thank you for your comment RuthW.
I noticed none of the fundamentalists commented on my proposal - which is fine. I realize it is a fairly hard concept for them to deal with.

Since most are still talking about truth - literal, or not - as it pertains to scripture, I suppose I will throw my two cents in.
I believe scripture should be assessed and critiqued as you would any literary source. If these rules are applied consistently, the scriptures are found to be in every range literarturily. Some parts are literal, others allegorical, others poetic, etc.
I think you minimize G-d by using scripture as scientific treatise. Scripture is not a science book, though it contains scientific principles, i.e. Job and hydrological cycle.
It is not a medical book, though it contains sound medical principles, i.e. Moses and quarantine.
IMHO, it is a book of faith. Truth is a false human perception. G-d is truth.

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Shalom, Will.


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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Groucho:
I'm curious.
Why just the first few stories in Genesis? On what grounds do you decide that these are not "literal" and that everything else is? It seems to me to be far more consistent to be 100% literalist, than to pick and choose which bits you think are literal.

Good question. My answer is that the stories in the first part of Genesis are exceedingly ancient ones that are repeated in various versions throughout the world. But once you start into the Abraham narrative it is the history of a specific people, a narrative that is unquestionably at least partly based on fact. I would argue that it is completely factual, depending on your definition of historical truth (i.e. exact wording of conversations, exact numbers, etc.). And yes to Jonah, but no to Job - because I think Job obviously presents itself as an apocryphal tale.

As for picking and choosing, I just think that this is a logical conclusion from the evidence of the text. But as far as truth goes, it is ALL written by God and contains the truth that every person needs to be saved. It is just that ancient cultures presented truth using symbolism that needs to be interpreted. The truths themselves, however, are always the same - love God,love your neighbor, turn away from evil, etc.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg


Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doubting Twin
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Jim talked about an
quote:
"omnipotent, omniscient and just God"
. Where does the Bible say this? Just because He is described as the "First and Last, Alpha and Omega", does that mean He knows everything?
(BTW Jim, I do not necessarily want you to answer this!)

We can take some of the psalms as poetic hyperbole, and maybe the passages in Jeremiah as the same, or plain exaggeration (interesting aside: if God does know us before we are born, then where are we? In God's presence? If so, why would he then remove us from there to send us to be born into a sinful world? If we are pre-existrent outside God's presence then does that mjean we are in hell?)

Anyway, Jim Powell, don't take all the rubbish that gets flung at you personally.

quote:

quote:


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QLib

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Once upon a time there was a preacher. His message was very simple and it was that people could find God’s kingdom inside themselves. He still wanted people to try to be good, but he had funny ideas about what ‘being good’ was: he agreed with people going to worship God in temples and so forth, but he actually thought that being kind to people and responding to them when they were in need was even more important. He tried to help people not to be afraid of God, but to think of Him as a loving father. This preacher said and did a lot of things to upset the religious establishment – he accused them of being liars and hypocrites, he criticised people who made a public show of their holiness and he didn’t approve of religious people building power and wealth on the fears of ordinary people. In fact, he got so far up the noses of the powerfully religious that they arranged to have him executed.

After his death, this guy’s followers became aware that he was, amazingly, still around, and they began to try and make sense of all they’d seen and heard from him, both before and after his death. They began to realise that this guy knew so much about God that he must have had a pretty special kind of relationship with God – unique, even. In a way, they thought – and they may well have been right – in a way, he was God.

Over the course of the years, they came up with a whole range of beliefs which explained how unique this guy was. But, while they were doing all this, they tended to concentrate less on what he had actually said about the business of doing religion. The result was that they came to develop a hierarchy of just the kind he had criticised in the past. They made money out of this new faith, they displayed their wealth and their holiness publicly, and they made the mistake of thinking that what they believed to be true about the preacher, was as important as anything the preacher himself had said. And, even though their beliefs may have been right, this was where, IMHO, they went wrong. Because the preacher never said that people had to believe how amazing he was, he just said that he stood at the gateway to heaven and could get people in. And who did he say would get in? The people who did stuff to help other people. He promised to treat those people as if they had done that stuff for him and what’s more, he said that that was all that counted when it came to getting into heaven – and not whether or not people called him ‘Lord’, which the religious folk liked to do. Did that suit the religious folk? Hell, no – they would rather believe a load of **** about people who have never heard of this guy burning in a lake of fire for all eternity. Speaking personally, where the preacher and his followers differ, I would rather go with the preacher.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.


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Jim Powell

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RuthW,Yes Indeed Abraham believed in the Lord,and righteousness was credited to his account,as it is for all who believe in Christ.
The temple taught truth about The Lord Jesus Christ,and the way of salvation,.. the ritual taught the work of the cross,the people looked forward to the cross as a sure event that would provide salvation,we look back.
The Lord told Adam and Eve after the fall he was going to the cross for them,and they believed and are in Heaven today.
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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David
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
RuthW,Yes Indeed Abraham believed in the Lord,and righteousness was credited to his account,as it is for all who believe in Christ.

Explain.

quote:
The temple taught truth about The Lord Jesus Christ,and the way of salvation,..

Explain.

quote:
the ritual taught the work of the cross,the people looked forward to the cross as a sure event that would provide salvation,we look back.

Explain.

quote:
The Lord told Adam and Eve after the fall he was going to the cross for them,and they believed and are in Heaven today.

Explain.

Just saying things doesn't make them true. That last quoted bit appears to have been made up out of whole cloth.

Please explain why it hasn't.


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Roger Wait
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to all, for your profitable reading of the Bible, I highly recommend a new book that I'm just starting to read. It is fascinating and already I find my belief system challenged and am looking forward to how it all turns out. The book is:

Reading the Bible Again for the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously but not Literally
by Marcus J. Borg, now an Episcopalian who grew up conservative Lutheran who is the Hundere Distinguished Professor of Religion and Culture at Oregon State University. He's also written"Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time," "The God We Never Knew," and "Jesus: A New Vision."

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Roger


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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
.
Just saying things doesn't make them true. That last quoted bit appears to have been made up out of whole cloth.

I agree. But I think he is referring to God's words to the serpent "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel" Genesis 3.15.

This amounts to a promise that a Son would come who would "bruise" the head of evil. But nothing about Adam and Eve's salvation.

Same with the words about Abraham's belief. Genesis 15.6: "And Abraham believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness." It is a simple statement of Abraham's confidence in Jehovah, but Christians have traditionally interpreted it as a confirmation of salvation by faith.

Personally, I find the concept of salvation by faith, and the accompanying vicarious atonement, to have exceedingly weak scriptural roots. A much more common and satisfying teaching is that "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the will of My Father(Matthew 7:21).

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg


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Nightlamp
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# 266

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Another Swedenborgian said
quote:
Personally, I find the concept of salvation by faith, and the accompanying vicarious atonement, to have exceedingly weak scriptural roots. A much more common and satisfying teaching is that "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the will of My Father

Although you have raised a good point that there seems to be aspects of the bible that run against the salvation by faith theology. salvation by faith (or by being a disciple) seems to infuse the bible with out it the Cross is almost impossible to explain as is much of Pauls writings.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp


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SteveWal
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Just thought I'd put my tuppenth in...

The problem with reading doctrine straight out of the Bible, especially NT doctrine from the OT, is that if you'd have asked the writer of that bit of Genesis what "salvation by faith" meant, he would have looked blank. Does that mean it wasn't there? I once saw an anti-apartheid version of Othello. Shakepeare wouldn't have known apartheid if it came up and bit his ankle. Does that mean it isn't possible to read Shakespeare like that? The production was very good.

One thing I do wonder about, though, and that is whether we're sometimes guilty of reading a lot more out of a passage than is necessary. Like that 2 Timothy passage: all it's saying is that scripture is profitable. It's not saying that's always right, inerrant, a great fount of unassailable truth; it's saying it is profitable. I think sometimes we read rather more into things than we need to sometimes, probably because it confirms what we already think.

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If they give you lined paper to write on, write across the lines. (Russian anarchist saying)


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Jim Powell

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David, Galations3:6 refers to Abraham and imputed righteousness.
Genesis3:15 refers to the cross,and 21 to salvation.
The curtain of the Temple stood for Christ,and was before the Holy of Holies,which stood for Heaven,which was torn after the work of the cross was complete..
If you wish to do a study for yourself send me your email ,and I will be pleased to send you a web site where you can order very good teaching material for which you will not be asked to pay for.
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
David, Galations3:6 refers to Abraham and imputed righteousness.

This is when Paul uses this text to back up his assertion that Christians are imputed with righteousness through faith in Christ apart from the Law. I can't see how Abraham could've had faith in Christ, he had faith in God. And his faith wasn't that he would be saved, but that he would find a land where his descendants would settle to become a great nation.

quote:
Genesis3:15 refers to the cross,and 21 to salvation.

These have been interpreted by some Christian thinkers as being types of the work of Christ in defeating the curse of death resulting from Adam and Eve trusting the serpant rather than God. I don't recall any NT passage which uses these passages in such a way.

quote:
The curtain of the Temple stood for Christ,and was before the Holy of Holies,which stood for Heaven,which was torn after the work of the cross was complete..


I don't see how the curtain stands for Christ. To me it stands for all that seperates us from God and prevents us from being in His presence (due to his holiness and our sin). In Christ there is a way by which we can enter the presence of God.

Alan

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.


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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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Yes, those passages require (gasp!) personal interpretation to be understood in the way Jim so blithely lays out as if it were unquestionably true. The assertions he makes are certainly not explicitly present anywhere in Scripture.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Or they require the assumption that the person who told you that's how they should be interpreted must be right.

I don't see it myself.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.


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Jim Powell

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# 323

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Alan the barrier between God and man is now removed by the cross.And our access to Heaven(holy of holies)is through Christ
All the best Jim.

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After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
Alan the barrier between God and man is now removed by the cross.And our access to Heaven(holy of holies)is through Christ

I agree fully with that.

Just don't see how the curtain stands for Christ; that was what left me confused.

Alan

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.


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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Jim said:
quote:
The temple taught truth about The Lord Jesus Christ,and the way of salvation,.. the ritual taught the work of the cross,the people looked forward to the cross as a sure event that would provide salvation,we look back.

The temple? In Jerusalem? Before Jesus was even born on this earth? Evidence for this, please?

The idea that an abused people would look forward to the cross is ludicrous to me. We can read the Song of the Suffering Servant backwards through Christ, and see him there, but I don't think Jews at any point in their history looked forward to a leader who would die a miserable and humiliating death.


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Nightlamp
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# 266

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i agree with alan about the curtain bit that is at least a little strange. It appears to show that there is a need to read the Bible as it is written.
Also

quote:
Genesis3:15 refers to the cross,and 21 to salvation.

verse 21 the verse about God making Garments?
and I find no reference tot he cross in verse 15 (although I know some christians understand it in this way) please explain yourself.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Jim Powell

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# 323

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Ruth, The way of salvation has always been faith in Christ, and the Temple taught this by means of the mercy seat,where the blood was poured that depicted the judgement of Christ for sins was taught,and the lampstand(Christ as the light of the world)and many other truths were taught about the cross even the fact that the judgement of sin on the cross was to be in the dark.
All the best Jim.

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After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Jim Powell

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# 323

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Nightlamp,,Animal sacfrice was used in the past to teach the work of the cross,the skins that the Lord used to clothe Adam&Eve came from an animal which died of course.
All the best Jim.

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After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25

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quote:
...but I don't think Jews at any point in their history looked forward to a leader who would die a miserable and humiliating death.

Exactly! In fact most Jews thought that Christ would be a mighty ruler and save Israel through strong leadership. Thats why Jesus was not identified as the Christ as quicky as he could have been!


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Nightlamp
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# 266

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Jim I must say your use of Scripture is at least unusual to say the least

you said

quote:
Animal sacfrice was used in the past to teach the work of the cross,

My apologies but I do not finds the word sacrifice in verse 21. Sacrifice is about something that people make to God but God is doing the action here.

What version of the bible are you using?


quote:
the skins that the Lord used to clothe Adam&Eve came from an animal which died of course.

This statement is naturally true but completely unrelated to the above one and unrelated to the death of Jesus.

It appears that you believe that Scripture is true as long as it is the interpretation you give it, not what the text says.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp


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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Another Swedenborgian said
Although you have raised a good point that there seems to be aspects of the bible that run against the salvation by faith theology. salvation by faith (or by being a disciple) seems to infuse the bible with out it the Cross is almost impossible to explain as is much of Pauls writings.

A much more universal theme of the Bible is the contest between good and evil. It is evident in virtually every verse. I think that fitting the cross into that theme, as a final conquest over the power of hell, is a more satisfying explanation than other alternatives.

The image of the angry Father being somehow satisfied by the death of His Son is just too hard to take. What kind of God is that?

I admit that it is a little tricky seeing a death as a victory, and that there are one or two Gospel references to "ransom" and "sacrifice" to explain. But I find this easier to accept than the negation of numerous quotes from Jesus Himself linking salvation with loving God and keeping His commandments.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg


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Will
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# 356

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Excuse me, Jim , but you are tripping. To think Jews before christ believed any of that you spouted is ludicrous, to say the least.
RuthW saw right throigh that argument. I am not about to cast aspersions on christianity. Although Orthodox, I am not intolerant or unbelieving in the historicity of Jesus. However, I will say that most of Paul's comments as relating to OT figures is looking through the telescope backwards or 20/20 hindsight or reading backward as RuthW put it.
Sorry Jim, but even as a private interpretation, that stuff is a real stretch.
Try reading some Jewish commentaries to balance out that fundamentalism. You might find out what Jews really believe(d).

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Shalom, Will.

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Jim Powell

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# 323

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Nightlamp..the sacrifice is in Genesis chap 3 verse 15(and you shall bruise him on the heel)The cross.
Do you agree that for the people of Israel the slaughtered lamb depicted the death of Christ on the cross.
So I understand that verse 21 also speaks of the work of the cross,which Adam and Eve accepted and Cain did not.
All the best Jim.

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After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Jim Powell

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# 323

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Alan Cresswell, Hebrews 10:19 and 20 help us to understand that the veil was Christ.
19.Since therefore brethren we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus.
20.by a new and living way which he inaugurated for us through the veil,that is, his flesh.
All the best Jim.

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After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
the sacrifice is in Genesis chap 3 verse 15(and you shall bruise him on the heel)The cross.

There is no reference to a sacrifice in this verse. Anywhere.

the slaughtered lamb depicted the death of Christ on the cross.

Yee-eees, but, er, what's that to do with any reading of Genesis 3? We're talking about a snake.

So I understand that verse 21 also speaks of the work of the cross, This verse reads: Unto Adam also and to his wife the LORD God made coats of skins, and clothed them (AV)

Now forgive me for being a pedantic lawyer, but


  • Does this verse contain any mention of sacrifice or any plausible idea about a future incident of salvation?
  • Does not this verse, perhaps, actually say that the LORD God made Adam and Eve some clothing out of animal skin and clothed them, because they were naked?
  • Without some special allegorical jump that Origen would have been proud of, is this not reading something into the text that simply is not there?


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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25

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quote:
Do you agree that for the people of Israel the slaughtered lamb depicted the death of Christ on the cross.


I thought it was the other way around, that Christ was the ultimate sacrifice, so that no more lambs would have to face the chop.
The sacrifices, were keeping man and God on speaking terms until God decided that this could go on no more, it was not a case of the sacrifices looking forward in any way. It was that Christs sacrifice was based on the ones before...

I just re-read that and it almost makes sense! mabye someone else can put it into clearer words!


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Nightlamp
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# 266

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Jim you said

quote:
So I understand that verse 21 also speaks of the work of the cross,

In no way does the passage say so it is simply an interpretation. for this passage to say this it truth it needs an interpretation to be put on it.
Would you agree that the passage does not use the words Jesus, sacrifice, and Cain was did not even alive.
In my simple understanding of the passage god gave them the garments because he cared for his people and it was cold

Jim said

quote:
Do you agree that for the people of Israel the slaughtered lamb depicted the death of Christ on the cross.

Which lamb are we talking about? and then point to the place in the scripture where it uses the words Jesus Sacrifice and salvation.

Jim I coming to the conclusion you actually are argueing
That we should not accept scripture as truth but only as a stepping stone to the truth. (we still don't no what truth is and Jim appears even more confused than me )

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp


Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
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# 266

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Hi Another Swedenborgian you said in one of your earlier posts
quote:
A much more common and satisfying teaching is that "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the will of My Father(Matthew 7:21)

This passage was in the context of false prophets but any way it could easliy be understood that those who do the will of the father are those who have faith in the father and those who appear to be good people ie the false prophets will be cast out because they do have faith or are not disciples.

I do not disagree that there is a tension between works and faith in the Bible. The Prophets and Paul struggles with this but the balance falls on the side of faith.
I can understand that you have problems with a certain theology of the cross but still faith is the key.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp


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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
Do you agree that for the people of Israel the slaughtered lamb depicted the death of Christ on the cross.

As a Christian I believe the animal sacrifices of the OT depict the sacrifice of Christ, and help to explain what was happening on the Cross. The people of Israel had no such idea.

The Hebrews passage you quoted says that Christ is the way through the curtain, not the curtain itself

Alan

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.


Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stowaway

Ship's scavenger
# 139

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It is very clear in Romans that it is Abraham's trust that God will give him a child that was regarded as righteousness. There is a promise of the Christ involved "through him all nations of the earth will be blessed", but it does not in any way constitute what evangelicals regard as saving faith.

It is Abram's trust in God's word (to him directly, and not in scripture) that made him a righteous man. From Abram's relationship with God we learn that a personal walk with and trust in God as he reveals himself to us is the essence of righteousness.

Which brings me to the nature of truth. We use a logical model to define truth. Truth is to do initially with verifiable facts and then applied to God. "Are the facts he gives us true?".

Biblically, truth has to do with trustworthiness. The concept entered our language when we say someone is true. i.e. trustworthy, consistent and faithful. We can say that God is true and Jesus is the truth in the sense that they are committed to us and we can trust them. God's word is true, and his name is Jesus.

Christian faith is also related to this. Faith is faithfullness to God and trust in his faithfullness to us. It has almost nothing to do with believing a set of statements about God conceptually.

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Warning: Mid-life crisis in progress


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