Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Should we accept that all scripture is to be accepted as truth?
|
|
Jim Powell
 BANNED
# 323
|
Posted
Nightlamp..God is truth100%..Christ said I am the truth.. God the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of scripture to write truth,and they did in the original languages. Christ said know the truth and the truth will make you free,again a command that must be possible to obey. All the best Jim.
-------------------- After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished" (The work of our salvation)
Posts: 78 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jim Powell
 BANNED
# 323
|
Posted
Mouse..What about those who dont hear the gospel? Everyone hears who wants to know God,God desires that none should perish.Gods desire is that all believe in Christ and be saved.An omniscient, omnipotent and just God will see to it that all who want to have a relationship with God will hear the good news. Those who never reach accountablity automaticly go straight to heaven(God is fair). All the best Jim.
-------------------- After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished" (The work of our salvation)
Posts: 78 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Jim Powell
 BANNED
# 323
|
Posted
Ruth..All who believe in Christ are saved,all who do not believe are not saved,this includes all of humanity whatever race they are,and whatever location they situated.There has never been a way of salvation for humanity except through the work of the cross,the sinless perfect humanity of Christ was judged for the sins of the whole world,he died a substitute for all. I will not name one Nation or group of people that this applies to,because it applies to all of humanity. All the best Jim.
-------------------- After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished" (The work of our salvation)
Posts: 78 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jim Powell
 BANNED
# 323
|
Posted
Nightlamp..Yes the inspired word of God is 100% truth..Now we get to the question do we want to know the truth as Christians. If the answer is yes then God has the job of teaching the whole realm of bible truth to us..(Why because he has commanded the believer to know the truth) God supplies the energy,time,Qualified Pastor,bible,filling of the Spirit..As in salvation we just accept what God has provided,all we contribute is the desire,the choice. The first step is to find well qualified pastor.My Pastor is great but I am not sure that I can give his web site on here. All the best Jim.
-------------------- After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished" (The work of our salvation)
Posts: 78 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jim Powell: Nightlamp..Yes the inspired word of God is 100% truth..
That's right. Truth is what is in accord with the actual state of affairs (Dictionary definition). Another definition is that truth is the form of good, or what leads to good. Maybe Scripture comes more under the second definition. Much of it, to my mind, is too obviously symbolic to be literally true. If Cain, Adam, and Eve were the only people on earth, why was he worried what people would do to him. And who did he marry? But all Scripture is written by God for the purpose of our salvation. It can still do that in the parts where it is symbolically written. It's general message is true, clear, and unambiguous - all the law and the prophets hang on the two great commandments. Personally, except for the first few stories in Genesis, I think that it all happened literally as stated, miracles and all.
-------------------- "Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
|
Posted
Not that we know what Truth is when it comes to the bible and how that differs from the truth of God. So we are disscussing something withgoput knowing the groundwork or more likely we operate in different groundworks
-------------------- I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Groucho
Shipmate
# 279
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Another Swedenborgian: Personally, except for the first few stories in Genesis, I think that it all happened literally as stated, miracles and all.
I'm curious. Why just the first few stories in Genesis? On what grounds do you decide that these are not "literal" and that everything else is? It seems to me to be far more consistent to be 100% literalist, than to pick and choose which bits you think are literal. Once you admit that Genesis 1 isn't "literal", you have to open the door to every other part of the Bible. So, where does this leave Job? Is this a "literal" story? What about Jonah? Did this "literally" happen?
-------------------- "These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others."
Posts: 111 | From: Halifax | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Groucho: I'm curious.Why just the first few stories in Genesis? On what grounds do you decide that these are not "literal" and that everything else is? It seems to me to be far more consistent to be 100% literalist, than to pick and choose which bits you think are literal. Once you admit that Genesis 1 isn't "literal", you have to open the door to every other part of the Bible. So, where does this leave Job? Is this a "literal" story? What about Jonah? Did this "literally" happen?
Just an answer from this non-literalist: Job - no Jonah - probably not Question back - does it matter?
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jim Powell
 BANNED
# 323
|
Posted
Steve.. Very sadly The Lake of fire for all eternity! All the best Jim.
-------------------- After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished" (The work of our salvation)
Posts: 78 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Astro
Shipmate
# 84
|
Posted
The Bible is the Truth but not scientific truth. We say things that are true in everyday life that are not scietifically true.For example saying to the one you love "you are beautiful like a red rose" maybe true to the beholder but the person being talked about does not resemble a plant. Or for those who believe that a day must be 24 hours long - have you ever used the phrase "the sun shone all day" meaning from dawn to dusk not for all 24 hours. Astro (who should become a shipmate)
-------------------- if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)
Posts: 2723 | From: Chiltern Hills | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pasco
Shipmate
# 388
|
Posted
quote: Quoted by Nightlamp: We still have not decided what truth would mean for this thread.
Sorry to jump back a bit. Whether we take a literal or non-literal view, the following may perhaps apply to both: Phil 2:13 "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for his good pleasure." As for the TRUTH?: 1 Truthfulness Relies Upon Total Honesty? Let's hope the writers in truth knew what they were writing about. Personally, I have no problems whatsoever in taking a literal Genesis view, but I'm open to see the other viewpoint. Having read various commentaries on Genesis, in addition there are a lot of other publications giving historical credence to the lineage of Noah as shown in Genesis 10, which I find more fascinating than delving into the mysteries behind whether the world was created in 7 days, or not as the case may be. 2. Another aspect of the TRUTH?: Truth Remains Unchanged Throughout History. Doubting Thomas did not believe despite being there having, "seen it, done it, worn the T-shirt," so to speak. What chance have we except by FAITH?: Feelings Are Ignored Truth Hallowed? May the search for the truth continue. -Pasco
Posts: 997 | From: Domiciling 'ere, living locally. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Will
Shipmate
# 356
|
Posted
First off; thank you for your comment RuthW. I noticed none of the fundamentalists commented on my proposal - which is fine. I realize it is a fairly hard concept for them to deal with.Since most are still talking about truth - literal, or not - as it pertains to scripture, I suppose I will throw my two cents in. I believe scripture should be assessed and critiqued as you would any literary source. If these rules are applied consistently, the scriptures are found to be in every range literarturily. Some parts are literal, others allegorical, others poetic, etc. I think you minimize G-d by using scripture as scientific treatise. Scripture is not a science book, though it contains scientific principles, i.e. Job and hydrological cycle. It is not a medical book, though it contains sound medical principles, i.e. Moses and quarantine. IMHO, it is a book of faith. Truth is a false human perception. G-d is truth.
-------------------- Shalom, Will.
Posts: 60 | From: Tx. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Groucho: I'm curious. Why just the first few stories in Genesis? On what grounds do you decide that these are not "literal" and that everything else is? It seems to me to be far more consistent to be 100% literalist, than to pick and choose which bits you think are literal.
Good question. My answer is that the stories in the first part of Genesis are exceedingly ancient ones that are repeated in various versions throughout the world. But once you start into the Abraham narrative it is the history of a specific people, a narrative that is unquestionably at least partly based on fact. I would argue that it is completely factual, depending on your definition of historical truth (i.e. exact wording of conversations, exact numbers, etc.). And yes to Jonah, but no to Job - because I think Job obviously presents itself as an apocryphal tale. As for picking and choosing, I just think that this is a logical conclusion from the evidence of the text. But as far as truth goes, it is ALL written by God and contains the truth that every person needs to be saved. It is just that ancient cultures presented truth using symbolism that needs to be interpreted. The truths themselves, however, are always the same - love God,love your neighbor, turn away from evil, etc.
-------------------- "Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doubting Twin
unregistered
|
Posted
Jim talked about an quote: "omnipotent, omniscient and just God"
. Where does the Bible say this? Just because He is described as the "First and Last, Alpha and Omega", does that mean He knows everything? (BTW Jim, I do not necessarily want you to answer this!)We can take some of the psalms as poetic hyperbole, and maybe the passages in Jeremiah as the same, or plain exaggeration (interesting aside: if God does know us before we are born, then where are we? In God's presence? If so, why would he then remove us from there to send us to be born into a sinful world? If we are pre-existrent outside God's presence then does that mjean we are in hell?) Anyway, Jim Powell, don't take all the rubbish that gets flung at you personally. quote:
quote:
IP: Logged
|
|
QLib
 Bad Example
# 43
|
Posted
Once upon a time there was a preacher. His message was very simple and it was that people could find God’s kingdom inside themselves. He still wanted people to try to be good, but he had funny ideas about what ‘being good’ was: he agreed with people going to worship God in temples and so forth, but he actually thought that being kind to people and responding to them when they were in need was even more important. He tried to help people not to be afraid of God, but to think of Him as a loving father. This preacher said and did a lot of things to upset the religious establishment – he accused them of being liars and hypocrites, he criticised people who made a public show of their holiness and he didn’t approve of religious people building power and wealth on the fears of ordinary people. In fact, he got so far up the noses of the powerfully religious that they arranged to have him executed.After his death, this guy’s followers became aware that he was, amazingly, still around, and they began to try and make sense of all they’d seen and heard from him, both before and after his death. They began to realise that this guy knew so much about God that he must have had a pretty special kind of relationship with God – unique, even. In a way, they thought – and they may well have been right – in a way, he was God. Over the course of the years, they came up with a whole range of beliefs which explained how unique this guy was. But, while they were doing all this, they tended to concentrate less on what he had actually said about the business of doing religion. The result was that they came to develop a hierarchy of just the kind he had criticised in the past. They made money out of this new faith, they displayed their wealth and their holiness publicly, and they made the mistake of thinking that what they believed to be true about the preacher, was as important as anything the preacher himself had said. And, even though their beliefs may have been right, this was where, IMHO, they went wrong. Because the preacher never said that people had to believe how amazing he was, he just said that he stood at the gateway to heaven and could get people in. And who did he say would get in? The people who did stuff to help other people. He promised to treat those people as if they had done that stuff for him and what’s more, he said that that was all that counted when it came to getting into heaven – and not whether or not people called him ‘Lord’, which the religious folk liked to do. Did that suit the religious folk? Hell, no – they would rather believe a load of **** about people who have never heard of this guy burning in a lake of fire for all eternity. Speaking personally, where the preacher and his followers differ, I would rather go with the preacher.
-------------------- Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jim Powell
 BANNED
# 323
|
Posted
RuthW,Yes Indeed Abraham believed in the Lord,and righteousness was credited to his account,as it is for all who believe in Christ. The temple taught truth about The Lord Jesus Christ,and the way of salvation,.. the ritual taught the work of the cross,the people looked forward to the cross as a sure event that would provide salvation,we look back. The Lord told Adam and Eve after the fall he was going to the cross for them,and they believed and are in Heaven today. All the best Jim.
-------------------- After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished" (The work of our salvation)
Posts: 78 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
David
Complete Bastard
# 3
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jim Powell: RuthW,Yes Indeed Abraham believed in the Lord,and righteousness was credited to his account,as it is for all who believe in Christ.
Explain. quote: The temple taught truth about The Lord Jesus Christ,and the way of salvation,..
Explain. quote: the ritual taught the work of the cross,the people looked forward to the cross as a sure event that would provide salvation,we look back.
Explain. quote: The Lord told Adam and Eve after the fall he was going to the cross for them,and they believed and are in Heaven today.
Explain. Just saying things doesn't make them true. That last quoted bit appears to have been made up out of whole cloth. Please explain why it hasn't.
Posts: 3815 | From: Redneck Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by David: . Just saying things doesn't make them true. That last quoted bit appears to have been made up out of whole cloth.
I agree. But I think he is referring to God's words to the serpent "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel" Genesis 3.15. This amounts to a promise that a Son would come who would "bruise" the head of evil. But nothing about Adam and Eve's salvation. Same with the words about Abraham's belief. Genesis 15.6: "And Abraham believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness." It is a simple statement of Abraham's confidence in Jehovah, but Christians have traditionally interpreted it as a confirmation of salvation by faith. Personally, I find the concept of salvation by faith, and the accompanying vicarious atonement, to have exceedingly weak scriptural roots. A much more common and satisfying teaching is that "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the will of My Father(Matthew 7:21).
-------------------- "Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Jim Powell
 BANNED
# 323
|
Posted
David, Galations3:6 refers to Abraham and imputed righteousness. Genesis3:15 refers to the cross,and 21 to salvation. The curtain of the Temple stood for Christ,and was before the Holy of Holies,which stood for Heaven,which was torn after the work of the cross was complete.. If you wish to do a study for yourself send me your email ,and I will be pleased to send you a web site where you can order very good teaching material for which you will not be asked to pay for. All the best Jim.
-------------------- After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished" (The work of our salvation)
Posts: 78 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Laura
General nuisance
# 10
|
Posted
Yes, those passages require (gasp!) personal interpretation to be understood in the way Jim so blithely lays out as if it were unquestionably true. The assertions he makes are certainly not explicitly present anywhere in Scripture.
-------------------- Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Jim Powell
 BANNED
# 323
|
Posted
Alan the barrier between God and man is now removed by the cross.And our access to Heaven(holy of holies)is through Christ All the best Jim.
-------------------- After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished" (The work of our salvation)
Posts: 78 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Jim Powell
 BANNED
# 323
|
Posted
Ruth, The way of salvation has always been faith in Christ, and the Temple taught this by means of the mercy seat,where the blood was poured that depicted the judgement of Christ for sins was taught,and the lampstand(Christ as the light of the world)and many other truths were taught about the cross even the fact that the judgement of sin on the cross was to be in the dark. All the best Jim.
-------------------- After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished" (The work of our salvation)
Posts: 78 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jim Powell
 BANNED
# 323
|
Posted
Nightlamp,,Animal sacfrice was used in the past to teach the work of the cross,the skins that the Lord used to clothe Adam&Eve came from an animal which died of course. All the best Jim.
-------------------- After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished" (The work of our salvation)
Posts: 78 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
|
Posted
Jim I must say your use of Scripture is at least unusual to say the leastyou said quote: Animal sacfrice was used in the past to teach the work of the cross,
My apologies but I do not finds the word sacrifice in verse 21. Sacrifice is about something that people make to God but God is doing the action here. What version of the bible are you using?
quote: the skins that the Lord used to clothe Adam&Eve came from an animal which died of course.
This statement is naturally true but completely unrelated to the above one and unrelated to the death of Jesus. It appears that you believe that Scripture is true as long as it is the interpretation you give it, not what the text says. 
-------------------- I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Will
Shipmate
# 356
|
Posted
Excuse me, Jim , but you are tripping. To think Jews before christ believed any of that you spouted is ludicrous, to say the least. RuthW saw right throigh that argument. I am not about to cast aspersions on christianity. Although Orthodox, I am not intolerant or unbelieving in the historicity of Jesus. However, I will say that most of Paul's comments as relating to OT figures is looking through the telescope backwards or 20/20 hindsight or reading backward as RuthW put it. Sorry Jim, but even as a private interpretation, that stuff is a real stretch. Try reading some Jewish commentaries to balance out that fundamentalism. You might find out what Jews really believe(d).
-------------------- Shalom, Will.
Posts: 60 | From: Tx. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jim Powell
 BANNED
# 323
|
Posted
Nightlamp..the sacrifice is in Genesis chap 3 verse 15(and you shall bruise him on the heel)The cross. Do you agree that for the people of Israel the slaughtered lamb depicted the death of Christ on the cross. So I understand that verse 21 also speaks of the work of the cross,which Adam and Eve accepted and Cain did not. All the best Jim.
-------------------- After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished" (The work of our salvation)
Posts: 78 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jim Powell
 BANNED
# 323
|
Posted
Alan Cresswell, Hebrews 10:19 and 20 help us to understand that the veil was Christ. 19.Since therefore brethren we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus. 20.by a new and living way which he inaugurated for us through the veil,that is, his flesh. All the best Jim.
-------------------- After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished" (The work of our salvation)
Posts: 78 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jim Powell: the sacrifice is in Genesis chap 3 verse 15(and you shall bruise him on the heel)The cross.
There is no reference to a sacrifice in this verse. Anywhere. the slaughtered lamb depicted the death of Christ on the cross. Yee-eees, but, er, what's that to do with any reading of Genesis 3? We're talking about a snake. So I understand that verse 21 also speaks of the work of the cross, This verse reads: Unto Adam also and to his wife the LORD God made coats of skins, and clothed them (AV) Now forgive me for being a pedantic lawyer, but
- Does this verse contain any mention of sacrifice or any plausible idea about a future incident of salvation?
- Does not this verse, perhaps, actually say that the LORD God made Adam and Eve some clothing out of animal skin and clothed them, because they were naked?
- Without some special allegorical jump that Origen would have been proud of, is this not reading something into the text that simply is not there?
-------------------- "He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|