Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Myrrh:
Dogmatic bad science is just as distracting as dogmatic bad religion when it comes to unravelling our history, and attempting to see our future..

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
...I happen to be convinced that certain researchers have data sets that are hooey, and are therefore finding mares' nests; but that doesn't entitle me to sneer at them unless I can bring positive proof of intellectual dishonesty. There are such things as mistakes, skewed data, sample errors, and even honest disagreements.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr Clingford:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
...I happen to be convinced that certain researchers have data sets that are hooey, and are therefore finding mares' nests; but that doesn't entitle me to sneer ....

---

I am curious. Which data sets are hooey?

---

Posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I don't think the amount of water on the earth is, in itself, an issue in relation to a global flood. So, whether a data source is from 1912 or more recent is largely irrelevant.

The issue is how do you relocate that water so that all the land is covered (or, at least all the land where people live ... I can see leaving a few thousand feet from the top of the Himalayas dry wouldn't make any significant difference to the impact of a global flood), and then redistribute that water back to where it came from (more or less). Remembering that in the process of what must be two substantial geological events (to start the Flood and end it) you need to leave no evidence in the geological record of this happening, nor of there having been water covering the land for that period, and also somehow preserve enough of the life that wasn't on the Ark to start over.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Myrrh:
You're assuming that the waters retreated to the same level.

---

Posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
So Myrrh, how do you square away your biblical literalism (and presumably an earth which is 6500-odd years old) with arguments including ice ages, stone age relics and like which are significantly older than that?

---

quote:

---

"O Solon, you [Greeks] are all young in your minds which hold no store of old belief based on long tradition, no knowledge hoary with age"

"The reason is this. There have been, and will be hereafter, many and diverse destructions of mankind, the greatest by fire and water, though other lesser ones are due to countless other causes"

" Thus the story current also in your part of the world, that Phaethon, child of the Sun, once harnessed his father's chariot but could not guide it on his father's course and so burnt up everything on the face of the earth and was himself consumed by the thunderbolt - this legend has the air of a fable; but the truth behind it is a deviation of the bodies that revolve in heaven around the earth and a destruction, occurring at long intervals, of things on the earth by a great conflagration...."

"Any great or noble achievement or otherwise exceptional event that has come to pass, either in your own parts or here or in any place of which we have tidings, has been written down for ages past in records that are preserved in our temples;"

"whereas with you and with other peoples again and again, life [had only just] been enriched with letters and all the other necessities of civilization when once more, after the usual period of years, the torrents from heaven [swept] down like a pestilence, leaving only the rude and unlettered among you"

"And so you start again like children, knowing nothing of what existed in ancient times here or in your own country.... To begin with, your people remembered only one deluge, though there were many earlier;"

"and moreover you do not know that the noblest and bravest race in the world once lived in your country. From a small remnant of their seed you and all your fellow citizens are derived; but you know nothing of it because the survivors for many generations died leaving no word in writing"

---

Posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:


The problem of where the water came from and went to is, for all intents and purposes, exactly the same.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
There is no way that complex ecosystems would recover after a global flood.

Not well enough to support many, many creatures which need very specific conditions to survive at all. Small changes in habitat can wipe out a species.

To expect animals to walk off a boat and survive is nonsense.


...

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amarante:
Freddy was right: the story of Noah's Flood and the story of creation in the Garden of Eden are in the same category because both are rooted in the famed epic of Gilgamesh that flourished in the Mesopotamia of Abraham. Because they are seen as myths they are sometimes dismissed as fairy tale. But myth is a form of history, and in the light of their origins they preserve 'history'. However, that history cannot be understood in literal terms.
The components of the Eden myth in particular have to be glimpsed in an earlier light to see the uplifting event long buried in the garden.

---

Posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:


It's all well and good repeating that the North Sea, Black Sea, Indian coastal cities etc were inundated at the end of the last glaciation ... but that's not really relevant as the flood waters were a) not deep enough to be global and cover any highland of substance, b) haven't reversed. You seem to be presenting evidence that would fit option 2) in the OP (a local flood) while arguing for option 1) (a global flood).

---

Posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
It is worth mentioning that the reference to sunken cities off the Indian coast is to "city-like structures" in the Gulf of Cambay, reported in 2001.

---

quote:

---

vedanet

Ambhrini is a female teacher and student in the tradition, we note. Her status, along with Ila-Vak's is important, as it reminds us of modern southern Mother-Goddess Gurus, such as Sri Ammachi and Mother Meera. The Garbharakshambika temple in Tanjore in the South is associated with the tale of the Vedic Nidhruva Rishi, and his wife Vedhika.

This all shows us that Ila and her ancient land, lay to the South, and the entire Vedic-Manu tradition of the Aryas came from there, before setting up their new land of Ila or the Aryas on the Sarasvati River of the North.

---

quote:

---

ephemeris history india

Although Manu dates from before the Rig Veda his codification of law, the Manu Smriti, only survives in a later form of post-Vedic Sanskrit. Manu, the Hindu father of mankind, was mentioned as the king of Dravida (southern India) before the flood, who resettled in the Himalayas to the north after the flood.

This tale of a flood has some parallels with the Mesopotamian tale of amphibious fish people who warned of a flood and guided kings in matters of science and law.

In southern India and Sri Lanka, ancient Tamil stories survive telling of days thousands of years ago when Sri Lanka and the Indian mainland were one land. Their legends tell of mighty empires that were engulfed by the sea. In his book, Underworld: The mysterious origins of civilization, Graham Hancock discusses how many of these stories are highly credible, knowing what we know today about glacial melting and ensuing worldwide floods.

Tamil legends speak of ancient learning centers (Sangam) that were swallowed by the sea, with only a few rishis (wise men) surviving each inundation to carry forward their sacred knowledge. The first Sangam, according to legend, was created circa 9,600 BCE in the land of Kumari Kandam, an ancient kingdom between present-day India and Sri Lanka submerged thousands of years ago.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Myrrh:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:


It's all well and good repeating that the North Sea, Black Sea, Indian coastal cities etc were inundated at the end of the last glaciation ... but that's not really relevant as the flood waters were a) not deep enough to be global and cover any highland of substance, b) haven't reversed. You seem to be presenting evidence that would fit option 2) in the OP (a local flood) while arguing for option 1) (a global flood).

---

Both. And these are relevant.

There was certainly a vast rise in sea level from the beginning of our current interglacial (the sea level during the ice age is some 450 ft below present levels) and particularly the Holocene, though its effects have been different at different locations. And has to include the 1000 year rapid re-freeze and equally rapid melting again (some say this could have been as short as a decade), of the younger dryas which cause is still not certain - comet sounds reasonable as it would explain the extinction event.

Plato's Atlantis which someone recently, sorry offhand can't recall the name, placed quite convincingly in S. America, could be seen as one end of the spectrum of local flood events over the next centuries beginning with the Holocene period (because of its dramatic rise in temperature) depending on how and where the ice melted. So would include such events as the birth of the Sarasvati in India and the flooding of the cities around its coast in existance around that time as well as the formation of the Great Lakes in the north Americas and all the individual stories from the variety of people around the world as they experienced such flooding.

However, I think the Noah story is centred around the Black Sea inundation which is about 5-4000 BC which would be along that spectrum further down the centuries - as more of the ice in the frozen northern hemisphere still existing as a barrier wall containing earlier melted ice sheets, as vast lakes, finally gave way. In which case the breakthrough to flooding would be for all practical purposes instantaneous - and this is the effect described and understood in the northern Americas and North Sea events.

I also think that this Noah story is the same event as described in the Hindu literature dating back to around 3,500 BC and also the likely original 'keeper' of this story which then gets spread in the Sumerian, Akkadian and Hebrew retelling and elaboration. India at that time had a vast body of 'literature' in sophisticated oral tradition passed on practically unchanged and there has been some work done on tracing the spread of the survivors of the Black Sea event to the Ukraine, to India and Mesopotamia - as I mentioned earlier, Abraham's father is said to have come from the 'other side of the flood' and likely part of this migration.


So both. What actually tipped the balance to produce the local flood events will be different for different locations, but the scale in many places is of the Noah ilk. Descriptions such as covering the mountains or rising to the heavens and leaving barely any survivors, sometimes only one, are commonplace.

The greater our understanding of the geological aspects re time taken of these billions tons of ice melting at the beginning of the repeated cycles of interglacials the better we'll get the picture to the sequence of these local events. There is always this sharp rise in temperature at the beginning of 'holocenes' (Vostok graph, earlier posted link).

And, from the Vostok graph it's quite clear that we are also repeating the same pattern of decrease in temperature since that beginning, we're heading rapidly back into our ice age again.

When this will happen, estimates vary. From within the next hundred years to some centuries. Examine the graph and decide for yourself, but global warming and another Noah's flood isn't going to be a problem until our next interglacial and by then will there be anyone around still passing down in memory that the rainbow story was wishful thinking...?


Myrrh

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jamat:
Nice post Myrrh. Well researched and all in all a pretty good case for a global flood..which would also explain the extinction event. [/QB]

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by pjkirk:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jamat:
Nice post Myrrh. Well researched and all in all a pretty good case for a global flood..which would also explain the extinction event.

---

I think you might need to re-read that. The "global" flood Myrrh speaks of seems very divergent from the flood you speak of earlier in the thread. [/QB]

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jamat:
By the way, does anyone have an explanation for the occasional man made artifacts found in coal seams?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jamat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by pjkirk:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jamat:
Nice post Myrrh. Well researched and all in all a pretty good case for a global flood..which would also explain the extinction event.

---

I think you might need to re-read that. The "global" flood Myrrh speaks of seems very divergent from the flood you speak of earlier in the thread.

---

Certainly, Myrrh's underlying assumption is that flood events were localised, However, that is just one way of interpreting the evidence she quotes. Say, for instance the timing assumed for these 'local' events was not accurate? Say also that Extinctions and glaciation events were the simultaneous result of a catstrophic climate adjustment due to the collapse of the prediluvian eco system? Since no one alive now was there and there are plenty of vested interests in finding alternative non Biblical explanations of what we see in and on the earth, why not have an alternative alternative explanation, viz: the Bible is accurate in what it says about a global flood.

By the way, does anyone have an explanation for the occasional man made artifacts found in coal seams? [/QB]

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by pjkirk:
The "global" flood Myrrh speaks of seems very divergent from the flood you speak of earlier in the thread.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jamat:

By the way, does anyone have an explanation for the occasional man made artifacts found in coal seams?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

By the way, does anyone have an explanation for the occasional man made artifacts found in coal seams?

---

As a non scientist my own interest is purely speculatory. There are apparently man made artifacts that have been found in coal seams and rock strata that should not exist.

Whilst not accepting everthing Graham Hancock puts forward, one of his themes is that ancient men (pre flood perhaps?) had advanced knowledge and skills, way beyond what is traditionally thought possible.

He cites a number of things which seem to support that idea. There are many unexplained sites in the world, Puma Puku in S.America for one, which clearly show very advanced stone cutting technology that helped cuts 200 ton to 400 ton stones (these are way beyond primitive tecnology and the pin point machine made drill lines are clearly observable); the remains of the cuts can be seen to this day.

Much of the speculation on who did this is unhelpful (aliens for instance Arrrggghhhhh ! ), but if we accept pre flood civilisations did exist and possessed skills as advanced or more advanced than ours today, we can 'explain' these phenomenon to an extent.

Whatever we think, there are many unexplained aspects like the man made object buried in seams that are suppossedly ''millions'' of years old. These are inconvenient artifacts to the conventional scientist , who sees only 'primitive' men existing at the dawn of time.

There are many things that just don't add up. I for one think there is much we do not know and some of our sacred shibboleths will need examining and rethinking.

Saul

--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Jamat said:

quote:

---

By the way, does anyone have an explanation for the occasional man made artifacts found in coal seams?

---

As a non scientist my own interest is purely speculatory. There are apparently man made artifacts that have been found in coal seams and rock strata that should not exist.

Whilst not accepting everthing Graham Hancock puts forward, one of his themes is that ancient men (pre flood perhaps?) had advanced knowledge and skills, way beyond what is traditionally thought possible.

He cites a number of things which seem to support that idea. There are many unexplained sites in the world, Puma Puku in S.America for one, which clearly show very advanced stone cutting technology that helped cuts 200 ton to 400 ton stones (these are way beyond primitive tecnology and the pin point machine made drill lines are clearly observable); the remains of the cuts can be seen to this day.

Much of the speculation on who did this is unhelpful (aliens for instance Arrrggghhhhh ! ), but if we accept pre flood civilisations did exist and possessed skills as advanced or more advanced than ours today, we can 'explain' these phenomenon to an extent.

Whatever we think, there are many unexplained aspects like the man made object buried in seams that are suppossedly ''millions'' of years old. These are inconvenient artifacts to the conventional scientist , who sees only 'primitive' men existing at the dawn of time.

There are many things that just don't add up. I for one think there is much we do not know and some of our sacred shibboleths will need examining and rethinking.

Saul

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
All I would put forward is that there is much we do not know and what we think we know (say about the Noahaic flood etc) is probably not much more than the Biblical account anyway.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
To be fair there is little (on the web at least) about such artefacts.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I suspect much conventional knowledge may in fact have to eat humble pie as we discover more and more about God's amazing creation.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Astronomer Copernicus reburied as hero in Poland

Nicolaus Copernicus, the 16th-century astronomer whose findings were condemned by the Roman Catholic Church as heretical, was reburied by Polish priests as a hero on Saturday, nearly 500 years after he was laid to rest in an unmarked grave.

His burial in a tomb in the cathedral where he once served as a church canon and doctor indicates how far the church has come in making peace with the scientist whose revolutionary theory that the Earth revolves around the Sun helped usher in the modern scientific age.

Copernicus, who lived from 1473 to 1543, died as a little-known astronomer working in a remote part of northern Poland, far from Europe's centers of learning. He had spent years laboring in his free time developing his theory, which was later condemned as heretical by the church because it removed Earth and humanity from their central position in the universe.

---

quote:

---

At the urging of a local bishop, scientists began searching in 2004 for the astronomer's remains and eventually turned up a skull and bones of a 70-year-old man — the age Copernicus was when he died. A computer reconstruction made by forensic police based on the skull showed a broken nose and other features that resemble a self-portrait of Copernicus.

In a later stage of the investigation, DNA taken from teeth and bones matched that from hairs found in one of his books, leading the scientists to conclude with great probability that they had finally found Copernicus.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
By "reliable evidence" I was hoping for something written by, y'know, a respected scientist (preferably in a peer-reviewed journal), not some crazy Mormon guy who goes around the internet reporting things like the Calaveras skull from a completely uncritical creationist perspective when the person who placed it where it was found has owned up and said it was a hoax. If you're going to tell me that these artefacts are there, unexplained and causing scientists to lose sleep, I'd really like to see some scientists confirming that.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Louise:
He probably believed in various monsters and dragons, there's nothing wrong with that in a first century bloke, but if someone thinks it makes it compulsory for us to believe in them, then I have a dragon-hunting safari I want to sell to them... and then the trip to find the Ark!

---