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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Religion of Jesus, or religion about Jesus?
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Yes. But one could say, they don't believe in the one god. The thing they believe in isn't a god at all, it's a phantasm of their own invention which they mistakenly THINK is the God of Creation. This is not an illogical position.
And one could also do this with pretty much any Christian group one disagrees with sufficiently.
Also, while poking around online, I found this:
"DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH LUMEN GENTIUM SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964"
quote:
But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
John of Damascus, if I read him correctly here, also seems to consider Islam a heresy, rather than a different religion.
Yes, but Lumen Gentium is a piece of crap.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So anybody who claims to be worshiping the God of Abraham, as long as their theology is not TOO wonky, is not worshipping a false god?
Suppose somebody gets up and says Ayn Rand is a brilliant novelist and a decent human being. Are they saying something false about the real Ayn Rand, or correctly reporting on a fictional Ayn Rand? I think we'd probably say that unless there's a specific context (i.e. an actual novel) in which to say that they're talking about a fictional character, they're saying untrue things about the real Ayn Rand.
The same goes for Richard III and Macbeth (I think we'd say someone's talking about the historical figure unl.ess they're talking about Shakespeare's play)
Things are slightly more complex with God. But I'd say that the general principle applies that worship, doctrine is about the real God of Abraham, even when the beliefs are false.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What, Muhammad's God is worse than Moses', Samuel's, Peter's, John's? (God the Killer does bleed into the NT doesn't He?)
It's well written; coherent, simple, inclusive for a tract. A clever subtly adversarial argument, dividing and conquering.
It will work well.
Mohammed's God is not the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That is so true.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
I read recently Muslims believe in a bodily resurrection of the dead like Jews and Christians do. Haven't heard that before. Anyone know more about it?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
from a Mohammedan point of view
This may appear to be 'picky' but the term is highly insulting to Muslims. It seeks to categorise Islam by Christian norms, i.e. 'Mohammedan' = the religion of Muhammad as 'Christian' is the religion of Christ.
The prophet is merely that. The Holy Qur'an is the word of God. The prophet isn't.
Jesus and Muhammad do not rank/function equally.
Interesting distinction I once heard my Archbishop mention. Jesus is the word of God in Christianity - not the bible. In Islam the Quran is the word of God.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
from a Mohammedan point of view
This may appear to be 'picky' but the term is highly insulting to Muslims. It seeks to categorise Islam by Christian norms, i.e. 'Mohammedan' = the religion of Muhammad as 'Christian' is the religion of Christ.
The prophet is merely that. The Holy Qur'an is the word of God. The prophet isn't.
Jesus and Muhammad do not rank/function equally.
Interesting distinction I once heard my Archbishop mention. Jesus is the word of God in Christianity - not the bible. In Islam the Quran is the word of God.
I see where your AB is going with that, but that's a terribly loose and misleading way to talk. Both Jesus and the Bible are spoken of as the Word of God, in different senses, just as the communion host and the church are spoken of as being Christ's Body.
I become very irritated when people pretend not to know that words can have more than one meaning or use.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Is yours?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I read recently Muslims believe in a bodily resurrection of the dead like Jews and Christians do. Haven't heard that before. Anyone know more about it?
Enjoy! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
This is my God:
Those who believe in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad, and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabians - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
Not the God who ordered Israel through willing righteous Samuel to commit genocide.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
This is my God:
Those who believe in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad, and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabians - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
Not the God who ordered Israel through willing righteous Samuel to commit genocide.
Yeah! Maybe that's why, from its very inception, Islam was spread by the sword, eh?
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
This is my God:
Those who believe in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad, and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabians - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
Not the God who ordered Israel through willing righteous Samuel to commit genocide.
Yeah! Maybe that's why, from its very inception, Islam was spread by the sword, eh?
As was Christianity, though often as a cover for land grabbing and trade concessions. The same few ex-Viking families from northern France who conquered England ran the crusades and most of Christian politics in Europe between maybe 1000 and 1350AD. And it was Islam that was tolerant of all other Abrahamic religions for much of its history. So I don;t see any need for self-congratulation. What is unsettling is the way that Jewish, Christian and Islamic cultures have spawned extreme intolerant, vocal and politically active sects in recent times. Taking a long view, if Islam recognises Jesus as being spiritually important, and doesn't recognise he is Logos - but still believes in the God for whom Jesus is Logos - What's the problem? Arguing the toss over doctrinal differences ends up with everyone seeing people as "Chritian or Not" ir "Islamic or Not" with the "Not" being equivalent to less than human.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
As was Christianity, though often as a cover for land grabbing and trade concessions. The same few ex-Viking families from northern France who conquered England ran the crusades and most of Christian politics in Europe between maybe 1000 and 1350AD.
Maybe you should read what I wrote again.
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
And it was Islam that was tolerant of all other Abrahamic religions for much of its history. So I don;t see any need for self-congratulation. What is unsettling is the way that Jewish, Christian and Islamic cultures have spawned extreme intolerant, vocal and politically active sects in recent times. Taking a long view, if Islam recognises Jesus as being spiritually important, and doesn't recognise he is Logos - but still believes in the God for whom Jesus is Logos - What's the problem? Arguing the toss over doctrinal differences ends up with everyone seeing people as "Chritian or Not" ir "Islamic or Not" with the "Not" being equivalent to less than human.
Bollocks! The question is who Jesus is. It is not a mere "doctrinal difference". Or are you arguing that because Islam recognises Jesus we should recognise Mohammed? An even weaker argument.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Taking a long view, if Islam recognises Jesus as being spiritually important, and doesn't recognise he is Logos - but still believes in the God for whom Jesus is Logos - What's the problem? Arguing the toss over doctrinal differences ends up with everyone seeing people as "Chritian or Not" ir "Islamic or Not" with the "Not" being equivalent to less than human.
There's really no problem. We have plenty of different opinions on who Jesus was and is within our own religion to keep us amused about the "us" and "them" stupidity.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Islam was spread by the sword, eh?
So was Christianity.
I really wish people would read what I said.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What, that Islam was spread by the sword and that invalidates a best case interpretation of Qur'an, sura 2 Al-Baqara, ayah 62 which no Salafi could agree with I'm sure?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I become very irritated when people pretend not to know that words can have more than one meaning or use.
Hear, hear.
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Yeah! Maybe that's why, from its very inception, Islam was spread by the sword, eh?
As was Christianity,
From its very inception? Bullshit. Bull fucking shit.
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Islam was spread by the sword, eh?
So was Christianity.
This is disingenuous. You have left out the adverbial phrase that makes what AO said quite a different thing from the bit you are quoting. This is a foul thing to do to somebody's argument and reeks of dishonesty.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I get as incandescently, pleasantly, excoriatingly, prettily, barkingly, spoonfully, bitily enraged as a green plastic plasterer's hawk when people pretend that Evensong isn't actually correct.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I should point out again, by the way, that "worshipping the same God" doesn't mean "and is therefore redeemed/saved/etc." The Inquisitors, etc. worshipped the same God with even more doctrinal accuracy. (And pretty much just run the list of every group committing atrocities in the name of Christ.)
Re swords, Christians weren't spreading the Gospel through violent worldly means at the start. We did do horrible things that way once we became a state religion, to a greater or lesser extent.
I'm not sure "let's see which religion has done more nasty things in the name of God" is very useful. I'm not really sure "okay, then, let's see which religion has done nasty things sooner in its history in the name of God" is helpful either.
As I understand Christianity, we're to spread the Gospel to everyone (Jew, Gentile, Pagan, etc.--whether they do worship the same God of Abraham or not) and do it with love. We've often sucked at the "love" part. I think that anything which leads to "they aren't enough like us, and therefore they matter less" has got something wrong with it.
Are Muslims in the same non-Christian sub-category as Jews, or as Proselytes (Gentiles who converted to Judaism), or as Pagans? I'd put them in the "Proselyte" category myself, and I think that should inform how we approach ministry to them, but it's not like I believe "oh, OK, you worship the God of Abraham, so you're automatically going to Heaven." But I also don't think that applies to people whose Christian theology is perfectly, precisely, impeccably correct. (I have to pray and trust that God's taking care of me, though sometimes I get scared, but I know He's more reliable than I am...) There's a lot of stuff about "did you feed me?" being much more critical than "were your doctrines correct?"
Heck, if Jesus talks about the Pharisee (whose theology was at least far more developed) and the tax collector (and it doesn't say the tax collector was a Christian, by the way), mightn't quite a few Muslims be in the same position of trusting God to have mercy and receiving it, though they may not know that it's through Jesus till they get to Heaven? (Luke 18:9-14)
I think being careful of the "ew, Muslims are icky" attitude is something we as Christians have to be very very clear on.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Are Muslims in the same non-Christian sub-category as Jews, or as Proselytes (Gentiles who converted to Judaism), or as Pagans? I'd put them in the "Proselyte" category myself, and I think that should inform how we approach ministry to them, but it's not like I believe "oh, OK, you worship the God of Abraham, so you're automatically going to Heaven."
I often like to provoke more con-evo congregations by telling them Cornelius, in Acts 10, would have made a good muslim: God-fearing, gives alms, prays regularly... and God answers his prayers. And yes, I think it does transform a christian's perspective to think like that.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I get as incandescently, pleasantly, excoriatingly, prettily, barkingly, spoonfully, bitily enraged as a green plastic plasterer's hawk when people pretend that Evensong isn't actually correct.
I am happy to admit Evensong is correct, and I will sometimes take time to acknowledge it. When she is.
What you are saying is that you get enraged when you agree with Evensong but other people don't.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Indeed. I'm so enraged I can't even respond.
The Books are colloquially the word of God, God's word, which doesn't make them the Word, the Logos of God incarnate and leads to all sorts of pre-postmodern nonsense.
The Quran IS the inerrant literal word of God by definition: the recitation [of God].
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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BereaN
Apprentice
# 18281
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Indeed. I'm so enraged I can't even respond.
The Books are colloquially the word of God, God's word, which doesn't make them the Word, the Logos of God incarnate and leads to all sorts of pre-postmodern nonsense.
The Quran IS the inerrant literal word of God by definition: the recitation [of God].
That certainly is the claim of thousands, what evidence do you have to make such a claim?
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John 3:18
Posts: 4 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2014
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Welcome, BereaN, to the Ship!
Please take time to check out our very own Ten Commandments and Guidelines, and if you hurry you may still be able to say hello on the 2014 Welcome Aboard thread in All Saints...
Enjoy posting here,
Eutychus
Purgatory host
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
A billion people can't be wrong.
And Quran is Arabic for Recitation. It is the inerrant, inspired recitation, word of God, lost in translation, recorded by and through Muhammad. By definition.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Islam was spread by the sword, eh?
So was Christianity.
No, that was Catholicism.
I don't think any of the Apostles actually converted the Jews with a sword in their right hand.
Once you get to the crusades that was a different matter of course...
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
All Gods are equal ... to paraphrase Orwell.
There is one God and he is not the Nabatean moon god.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
All Gods are equal ... to paraphrase Orwell.
There is one God and he is not the Nabatean moon god.
Indeed, and his name is YHWH and he was Incarnate in Jesus of Nazareth.
Accept no substitutes or imitations.
If one cannot call Allah 'Father' and if he doesn't love the sinner, then whatever it is, it is not the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I found THIS to be highly informative.
It seems that Allah is NOT a generic word for God in Arabic but is actually the proper name of the Deity, according to Islam.
No room for YHWH then....
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I found THIS to be highly informative.
It seems that Allah is NOT a generic word for God in Arabic but is actually the proper name of the Deity, according to Islam.
No room for YHWH then....
You'll have to explain that to the christian churches in Malta where it appears, side by side with the English, in the book of prayer.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I found THIS to be highly informative.
It seems that Allah is NOT a generic word for God in Arabic but is actually the proper name of the Deity, according to Islam.
No room for YHWH then....
You'll have to explain that to the christian churches in Malta where it appears, side by side with the English, in the book of prayer.
Did you read the article?
It seems the Muslims themselves would have an issue with the Christians in Malta; maybe they are actually mistaken.
It's not for me to correct them. If Islam itself claims that Allah is the supreme deity's actual name and not the generic term for a deity then who am I to disagree?
As I said, the divine name for God is YHWH and not Allah, and he was Incarnate in Jesus who has now received the name that is above EVERY name (including Allah).
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If Islam itself claims that Allah is the supreme deity's actual name and not the generic term for a deity then who am I to disagree?
That website hardly looks like a universal authority for Islam. And even if it were true that the word "Allah" was claimed by some as a unique name for their unique and distinctive God, that is quite clearly not a view universally held by Arabic speakers. quote:
As I said, the divine name for God is YHWH
I think it's more correct to say that's how the Jews understood God to call himself, and significantly, it's not a term, or use, that carries over into the NT.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
As I said, the divine name for God is YHWH
I think it's more correct to say that's how the Jews understood God to call himself, and significantly, it's not a term, or use, that carries over into the NT.
No, it's the revealed name of God, told to Moses by God - unless you're suggesting 'the Jews' made it up.
As for it not being carried over to the NT, the word Adonai, the word the Jews used almost as a euphemism for YHWH in the OT Scriptures, certainly was and it was ascribed to Jesus.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I don't think Moses made it up, but I'm not sure that the tetragrammaton is what God calls himself. I think it was deliberately enigmatic.
And besides, do you think God speaks Hebrew? Is it the language of heaven?
I would say that the fact that Christianity transcends the claimed divine hallmark of any language (and by extension, culture) is one of the crucial differences from Islam. Do you disagree?
[ 28. December 2014, 19:08: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I would simply say that in the Bible a 'name' was far more than a mere appellation, it was a revelation of character, essence and purpose.
YHWH reveals God, Jesus reveals God and it's The Name that is important - both in OT and NT contexts.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
YHWH reveals God
Let me get this straight.
Are you saying the Hebrew Tetragrammaton reveals God in a way that is exclusive and language-specific? That's more theologically correct than any other rendering?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
YHWH reveals God
Let me get this straight.
Are you saying the Hebrew Tetragrammaton reveals God in a way that is exclusive and language-specific? That's more theologically correct than any other rendering?
My two pence worth, no. But it's meaning certainly does, I am what I am. Though I have to say, I detest those translations which don't follow the tradition of using Lord instead, such as the Jerusalem Bible
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I make no claim to speak Hebrew but I do translate for a living so I know how linguistic equivalents are a subject of endless debate; there is often no one right answer. I am assured that "I am who I am" is one of a range of possible translations of YHWH; but I believe that the essential meaning intended by God is not language-specific.
The key point here to my mind is that God is not tied down to a signifier, rather he is the referent which we (and Scripture) attempt to describe by language.
Christians might argue a better claim to apprehending God the Referent than others, and Jesus as the "living Word" is a key part of that in my view, but to claim (as Mudfrog appears to be) that others cannot be worshipping the same God, even imperfectly and from afar, because their term for God is a different signifier (here, Allah) is, I believe, mistaken and the source of a much that is unhelpful.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
And it's also a highly over-literal approach.
Mudfrog won't like this, but it reminds me of some particularly stretched or over-blown hermeneutics that I was exposed to in my restorationist days.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
All Gods are equal ... to paraphrase Orwell.
There is one God and he is not the Nabatean moon god.
This sort of bullshit is out of exactly the same stable that says that YHWH was just the ancient Hebrew god of thunder. It deserves about as much recognition.
It's perfectly possible to be worshipping God while believing severely incorrect things about him.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
YHWH reveals God
Let me get this straight.
Are you saying the Hebrew Tetragrammaton reveals God in a way that is exclusive and language-specific? That's more theologically correct than any other rendering?
In a word, yes. But not because it's Hebrew or because it uses a certain set of letters. It's what it means and conveys.
it's not like calling God 'Fred' merely because that's a name. YHWH carries within it a whole meaning: and it's the covenantal name of God.
[ 28. December 2014, 21:49: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
... to claim (as Mudfrog appears to be) that others cannot be worshipping the same God, even imperfectly and from afar, because their term for God is a different signifier (here, Allah) is, I believe, mistaken and the source of a much that is unhelpful.
But you misunderstand again.
YHWH is a name for God.
Allah is a name for God
Ba'al is a name for God
The Aten is a name for God.
Which one is God??
As the God of the Mosaic covenant said, I am YHWH beside me there is no other (not The Aten, not Ba'al, not Horus, not Molech, not a golden calf...etc
As Elijah said, choose ye this day whom ye shall serve: If the LORD (YHWH) is God worship him, if Ba'al is God, worship him.
If YHWH is the one true God then none of the other options are available. They are not all different names for the One God. And if you insist that Allah is YHWH by another name you land yourself into a whole minefield of theological difficulties and schizophrenic gods - and Muslims certainly do NOT accept YHWH as a parallel name for the god they call Allah.
And if Allah is God then why not Zeus? Why not Viracocha? Why not the 'trinity' of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva?
[ 28. December 2014, 22:02: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
Mudfrog, what do you make of the fact that Arab Christians use the word Allah to refer to YHWH, and have been doing so since before the birth of Mohammed and Islam?
Do you speak a second language?
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
- and Muslims certainly do NOT accept YHWH as a parallel name for the god they call Allah.
Source?
During six years as a missionary in Turkey I never once met a Muslim who didn't think that Allah was the God of Abraham, Jacob, etc. They aren't schooled in ancient Hebrew, so they wouldn't even know the term YHWH, but I'm sure they'd view the discrepancy as purely linguistical.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
- and Muslims certainly do NOT accept YHWH as a parallel name for the god they call Allah.
Source?
During six years as a missionary in Turkey I never once met a Muslim who didn't think that Allah was the God of Abraham, Jacob, etc. They aren't schooled in ancient Hebrew, so they wouldn't even know the term YHWH, but I'm sure they'd view the discrepancy as purely linguistical.
Allah is the Nabatean moon God reconstituted as a monotheistic deity by Muhammed. The fact that most Muslims think he is the Biblical Yahweh doesn't make it true it just shows they don't know the Bible.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Allah is the Nabatean moon God reconstituted as a monotheistic deity by Muhammed. The fact that most Muslims think he is the Biblical Yahweh doesn't make it true it just shows they don't know the Bible.
There's nothing about Allah being the moon God in the Bible. Or for that matter in any other credible source. This is one of those myths that has taken on a life of its own.
(Although interestingly the bible does include Elohim as an alternative name for God. I've never heard anyone say that was a problem though).
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
Here
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
Sorry, here
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Here
Wow! An evangelical Christian hack says you're right without providing any evidence. I'm convinced
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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